KVB's Words of Wisdom...5000th Post

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  • KVB
    SBR Aristocracy
    • 05-29-14
    • 74817

    #1
    KVB's Words of Wisdom...5000th Post
    For my 5000th post I would like to start a series of threads known as Words of Wisdom. While I considered offering something I’ve already posted or recent words of money management, I decided on something new.

    I’ve often mentioned that it’s not that gamblers don’t know; it’s that so much they know is wrong. In the CFL thread poster Ra77er asked a question that offers a teachable moment.

    Originally posted by Ra77er
    KVB why do you prefer median over mean? Mean is much more accurate right? I know this is random question in this specific thread but you spoke about this before with regards to modeling in the HTT.

    More specifically mean would seem to account for anomaly type situation better than a median approach or no?
    Remember, this is indeed a game of numbers if you want to succeed and many bettors, when comparing stats between teams, often use means instead of medians. Doing so will cause errors in your work.

    The first lesson is in conclusions and behavior. I’ve mentioned in the past that there are as many ways to handicap as there are handicappers and bettors, when comparing teams, use all kinds of stats. When bettors use means when comparing teams, get false evidence, then fail, they often conclude that the statistics used were the wrong ones.

    They move on to other angles, other stats, and then continue to use means and continue to fail. What they don’t realize is that it’s often not the stats used that is the problem, it’s the use of means. This cycle can go on for as long as a bettor lets it.

    The mean and the median can be different numbers but are often close. First let’s address the problems with averaging stats.

    Let’s keep it simple and, simply put, using means when comparing stats between teams will cause errors whenever both teams are above or below the mean. It fools the player because you can, at times produce a valid result, as when medians are used, but that is coincidental.

    Let’s use an example. Let’s compare the Eagles to Falcons using yardage stats. Let’s say, for simplicity, that the average yards per game in the NFL come to 160 yards. We know it is closer to twice that but let’s keep it simple. In our scaled down example, let’s say the Eagles gain an average of 200 yards per game and the Falcons give up 200 yards per game.

    To project the Eagles total yards gained against the Falcons, the natural tendency for the bettor is to take the average of the two: yards gained by Eagles plus yards allowed by Falcons divided by two, which would produce a prediction of 200 yards per game.

    Does that sound right to you? Think about it. Using means, we are saying a better than league average Eagles team that’s “worth” 200 yards a game is going to be held to its “normal” 200 yards per game by a less than average poor Falcons defense?

    That’s a mistake and it will show. Instead of trying another stat and again averaging the two, try this…

    Add the yardage gained to the opponent’s yardage allowed and then subtract the league average.

    Now we get 400 – 160 = 240. Let’s think about it again. Now we’re saying the Eagles good offense should get more yards against the poor Falcon defense than they would usually get against their average opponents.

    That makes a little better sense. Now let’s talk about the advantage of medians. Ra77er brought up anomaly type situations and how the mean would take it into consideration. While this is true, is that what we want?

    Let’s say, in our scaled down example that the wheels come off in a game and those pesky Falcons give up 400 yards. They are way behind, injuries, send in the backups, etc. and don’t give a shit. In the next three games let’s say they give up 180, 220, and 200 yards per game. If you average these four games you’ll come to 250 yards per game while the median is 210.

    In a sport like the NFL teams tend to revert to a norm, whatever their specific norm is. By using medians, you can better remove those outlier results that aren’t exactly indicative of a team’s normal performances.

    Winning gamblers have learned to compare what is relevant to staying ahead of the marketplace and often times those outlier results are more of an influence on perception than reality. This too should be taken into account.

    One more note about means and medians. I mentioned that means can fool players because often times they can produce a valid figure, but it’s a mere coincidence.

    Let’s say the Eagles gain 200 yards per game and the Falcons give up 120 yards per game. Averaging the two will yield the same result as adding them together and subtracting 160.

    And that is why bettors can be fooled. When one team is above average and one team below average, you can get close to a valid figure, and this happens often. Eventually averaging between teams will produce errors while the method described above will avoid these errors.

    Like I’ve said before, track your bets and why you made them folks; this can become the most valuable piece of information you can process. Not even the most advanced syndicates and bettors have that information.

    That is, until we make you. But that’s for another thread.

    May these words of wisdom put you onto some winners or take you off of some losers.

  • Jayvegas420
    BARRELED IN @ SBR!
    • 03-09-11
    • 28213

    #2
    5000th post and I gotta do math.?


    Comment
    • DiggityDaggityDo
      SBR Aristocracy
      • 11-30-08
      • 81450

      #3
      Originally posted by Jayvegas420
      5000th post and I gotta do math.?


      JayVegas, you got the cliff notes?

      Thanks in advance.
      Comment
      • Ra77er
        SBR Posting Legend
        • 06-20-11
        • 10969

        #4
        Well I am honored to be in your 5k KVB, secondly I love the 420 reference on the 210 median of the Falcons defense and finally I am embarrassed to not know this stuff by now. It makes sense but I wonder how these fundamentals apply to say two teams that are below average or two teams that are above average. You example was Eagles rushing was above league average and Falcons D was below so does this information apply the same to other situations?
        Comment
        • Fidel_CashFlow
          SBR Aristocracy
          • 12-03-12
          • 53970

          #5
          K.V.B is that dude, what dude ?

          THE DUDE

          Comment
          • adila1401
            SBR MVP
            • 11-16-11
            • 2014

            #6
            Excellent, as usual. Thanks for dropping the knowledge, good sir!
            Comment
            • jjgold
              SBR Aristocracy
              • 07-20-05
              • 388179

              #7
              good work KVB
              Comment
              • El Nino
                SBR Posting Legend
                • 05-03-12
                • 18426

                #8
                Comment
                • KVB
                  SBR Aristocracy
                  • 05-29-14
                  • 74817

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ra77er
                  Well I am honored to be in your 5k KVB, secondly I love the 420 reference on the 210 median of the Falcons defense and finally I am embarrassed to not know this stuff by now. It makes sense but I wonder how these fundamentals apply to say two teams that are below average or two teams that are above average. You example was Eagles rushing was above league average and Falcons D was below so does this information apply the same to other situations?
                  I used both examples…Eagles with 200 yards for and Flacons with 200 yards against (both above the 160) as well as Eagles with 200 yards for and Falcons with only 120 yards against (on either side of the 160). The second example was to show how bettors can be tricked when “averaging” works out by coincidence.


                  Originally posted by KVB
                  …using means when comparing stats between teams will cause errors whenever both teams are above or below the mean…
                  …When one team is above average and one team below average, you can get close to a valid figure, and this happens often…
                  Ra77er you’ve been a good poster and this was by no means meant embarrass you. Your question inspired the post and I know (or at least I hope), as “basic” as things may seem, many readers picked up something here…it’s the nature of the marketplace.

                  Keep asking questions, good sir.

                  Comment
                  • Jeffie
                    SBR MVP
                    • 04-06-12
                    • 3428

                    #10
                    I appreciate the widsom KVB, but if you don't mind could post a wrestling GIF for me? Thanks in advance.
                    Comment
                    • KVB
                      SBR Aristocracy
                      • 05-29-14
                      • 74817

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jeffie
                      I appreciate the widsom KVB, but if you don't mind could post a wrestling GIF for me? Thanks in advance.
                      Comment
                      • KVB
                        SBR Aristocracy
                        • 05-29-14
                        • 74817

                        #12
                        Comment
                        • Ballerholic
                          SBR MVP
                          • 01-16-13
                          • 2767

                          #13
                          KVB you obviously are knowledgable with number, but are you a winning capper?
                          Comment
                          • Jeffie
                            SBR MVP
                            • 04-06-12
                            • 3428

                            #14
                            Originally posted by KVB
                            Comment
                            • Ra77er
                              SBR Posting Legend
                              • 06-20-11
                              • 10969

                              #15
                              Do you think it is better to use splits in this data KVB? Some teams perform better/worse on the road and it was something you didn't specify in your example. Is it best to just look at data neutral? If so then it looks like Arizona/Carolina should put up 714.5 yards of total offense on Sunday and probably right around 49 combined points. If I dug deeper though and included splits in my data I would probably come to a different conclusion.
                              Comment
                              • Ra77er
                                SBR Posting Legend
                                • 06-20-11
                                • 10969

                                #16
                                Everyone is a damn comedian here
                                Comment
                                • KVB
                                  SBR Aristocracy
                                  • 05-29-14
                                  • 74817

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by DiggityDaggityDo
                                  JayVegas, you got the cliff notes?

                                  Thanks in advance.
                                  Comment
                                  • KVB
                                    SBR Aristocracy
                                    • 05-29-14
                                    • 74817

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by El Nino
                                    Comment
                                    • Dirty Sanchez
                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                      • 03-01-10
                                      • 16031

                                      #19
                                      Comment
                                      • zizoudane10
                                        SBR Hall of Famer
                                        • 03-27-12
                                        • 7272

                                        #20
                                        Good post, finally one with some knowledge, love to discuss this shit.
                                        Are you guys from the US still able to access the pinnaclesports site? Can't just log in, or can't read as well? Some great articles there.
                                        Would give some points, but currently paying back a loan, so just
                                        Comment
                                        • gauchojake
                                          BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                          • 09-17-10
                                          • 34102

                                          #21
                                          Comment
                                          • KVB
                                            SBR Aristocracy
                                            • 05-29-14
                                            • 74817

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Ra77er
                                            Do you think it is better to use splits in this data KVB? Some teams perform better/worse on the road and it was something you didn't specify in your example. Is it best to just look at data neutral? If so then it looks like Arizona/Carolina should put up 714.5 yards of total offense on Sunday and probably right around 49 combined points. If I dug deeper though and included splits in my data I would probably come to a different conclusion.
                                            Whenever you deal with stats between teams, it is better to use medians measured against the league average or median. I phrase it this way to hopefully help mentally develop the big picture. It doesn’t matter the stats, we are sizing each team up and using the league average or median as a yardstick.

                                            There are many ways to handicap. I would say that splitting between home and away is something most markets recognize. The NBA is getting less so, it seems. I’ve always felt that those entertainers travel so much that home hardly feels like home so I’m not surprised to see it lessen in the NBA.

                                            Of course, across all sports, not all teams enjoy a home field advantage.

                                            So say you come up with 200 yards gained per game for the Eagles. When figuring the Eagles to be “worth” 200 yards per game, did you consider the strength of schedule? This is something else the market recognizes. Maybe they played relatively weak defenses and are only “worth” 195 yards per game.

                                            Making adjustments to all the relevant factors can get crazy and that’s why we often see them summed up in power ratings. Giving each team a power rating relative to the league before each game will not only help you compare the teams, but it can make it easier to incorporate strength of schedule.

                                            I’ve mentioned comparing teams to the league. Whatever the stats: yards, turnovers and mistakes, yards per pass attempt, etc., use the medians, but you don’t always have to compare them to the league.

                                            You could, for example, compare the teams to the conference. This can be especially helpful in College Hoops when appropriate. You can bet this is something the Hoops market recognizes.

                                            Comment
                                            • packerd_00
                                              SBR Posting Legend
                                              • 05-22-13
                                              • 17803

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by KVB
                                              What movie is that from mate.
                                              Comment
                                              • Mase of Base
                                                SBR MVP
                                                • 07-24-12
                                                • 3622

                                                #24
                                                Expected great gifs, thread delivered.
                                                Comment
                                                • KVB
                                                  SBR Aristocracy
                                                  • 05-29-14
                                                  • 74817

                                                  #25


                                                  Comment
                                                  • Mase of Base
                                                    SBR MVP
                                                    • 07-24-12
                                                    • 3622

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by packerd_00
                                                    What movie is that from mate.


                                                    One of the all time greats mate watch it. The Big Lebowski.
                                                    Comment
                                                    • packerd_00
                                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                                      • 05-22-13
                                                      • 17803

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Mase of Base


                                                      One of the all time greats mate watch it. The Big Lebowski.
                                                      Cheers,ive actually never heard of it.

                                                      I will check it out.
                                                      Comment
                                                      • packerd_00
                                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                                        • 05-22-13
                                                        • 17803

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by KVB
                                                        Cheers mate.
                                                        Comment
                                                        • gauchojake
                                                          BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                          • 09-17-10
                                                          • 34102

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by packerd_00
                                                          cheers,ive actually never heard of it.

                                                          I will check it out.
                                                          wait..what??
                                                          Comment
                                                          • packerd_00
                                                            SBR Posting Legend
                                                            • 05-22-13
                                                            • 17803

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by gauchojake
                                                            wait..what??
                                                            Hand on heart.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • gauchojake
                                                              BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                              • 09-17-10
                                                              • 34102

                                                              #31
                                                              Well you'll probably hate it but trust me it's genius. Clearly you have the internet so how have you never heard of this movie???? My mind is blown right now.
                                                              Comment
                                                              • KVB
                                                                SBR Aristocracy
                                                                • 05-29-14
                                                                • 74817

                                                                #32
                                                                Comment
                                                                • packerd_00
                                                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                                                  • 05-22-13
                                                                  • 17803

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by gauchojake
                                                                  Well you'll probably hate it but trust me it's genius. Clearly you have the internet so how have you never heard of this movie???? My mind is blown right now.
                                                                  I love movies mate,but I just never heard of it.

                                                                  Why do you think id hate it.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • The Giant
                                                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                                                    • 01-21-12
                                                                    • 21480

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Congratulations on your 5,000th post, but please....

                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • gauchojake
                                                                      BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                                      • 09-17-10
                                                                      • 34102

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by packerd_00
                                                                      I love movies mate,but I just never heard of it.

                                                                      Why do you think id hate it.
                                                                      I'm teasing a little bit but I really didn't like the movie the first time I saw it. I didn't quite understand what was going on. It was my brother's favorite movie and after he convinced me to watch it again, I did a 180.
                                                                      Comment
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