Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

Love replays. Major advantage of the internet age that races are easily accessible for study. Plus it's fun to watch horses race. Doesn't quite put tears in my eyes, but at the level right below that.

Went back to some old research after asking about this. With what I learned from you I could connect some more of the dots about horses with heart there. The challenge before me is that I have to fit info into a model (aside from replays); I have one for heart now, or at least working on clearing that up. Took Man'o War and Secretariat as the mold... lol It was a factor I had put aside for a while, as being secondary to other elements I was working on. But now was the time to fit it in. So much obliged once again, kind mentor.

I think I said it before but I used to have a library of every replay in Md. I would set my tape player for the replay show that came on at some crazy hour of the night and tape each show. I had a bookcase full and would watch race after race in my track office of any prospective claim before doing so. What an edge !
I think that having a category that shows certain horses that will run hard every time and in most every circumstance is important . With that said I would not be helping you out if I didn't say what I am about to say. While some people might swear that I am crazy, I promise you I am not. Man O War was only beaten once in his life. His ability was off the charts. He was beaten as a 2 year old by a horse named Upset.( on a side note, people at the track used to say all the time that the term " upset " came from that horse beating Man O War. That is just a fish story but a pretty cool one. ) He was so dominant that I really can not speak to his " heart". I can speak to Secretariat's " heart". As I think I wrote, this horse blew me away when I saw him at Pimlico. I was just a beginning groom at the time and really knew very little at all but I could just feel the history and the energy that Secretariat carried with him. Too this day, I find it hard to put into words. But Secretariat, did NOT have the classic characteristics of a horse with a lot of heart , that we are talking about. It was a serious flaw in the movie portrayal . They said he did but honestly, he really did not display that in his races. He was tons the best and probably the best ever but he was not the definition of a horse that will overcome many if not all obstacles to try to compete to the best of it's ability. He just did not do that.
So I guess my question is, does a horse for your model under heart need to be an all time great ? If so, there should be plenty around . I would start with Affirmed and Alydar. You might not need to look any further than those two. The shows that they put on were incredible. They are must see races if you want to talk about horses that refuse to give up.
Ironically, both horses have Man O War in there bloodlines. But with his complete dominance in his day, it is hard to see what he overcame. Not to say that he didn't. Also, the two that you chose were the only two that were identified in racing as "Big Red".

[Dark Horse]

"Heart', as I came to gradually identify it, comes in three shades. And what you pointed out fits that mold. It's basically a strong conviction. It can be positive, as in 'the sky is the limit', something that gives wings (Secretariat and Man O War). To me that qualifies as heart, but it may look too easy in case of these rare legends. It can be negative, as in a refusal to lose (Seabiscuit), and it can simply be a spirit to fight 'till the death'. These last two are more easily recognized as 'heart', because it comes in response to a challenge. I'm just scratching the surface of this particular element, and am only using it at this point to identify horses without heart.

[str]

"Heart', as I came to gradually identify it, comes in three shades. And what you pointed out fits that mold. It's basically a strong conviction. It can be positive, as in 'the sky is the limit', something that gives wings (Secretariat and Man O War). To me that qualifies as heart, but it may look too easy in case of these rare legends. It can be negative, as in a refusal to lose (Seabiscuit), and it can simply be a spirit to fight 'till the death'. These last two are more easily recognized as 'heart', because it comes in response to a challenge. I'm just scratching the surface of this particular element, and am only using it at this point to identify horses without heart.

O.K. Now I get where you are coming from. That makes sense and you seem to have a true understanding of the various forms. I think that using this approach will have to be a positive effect on what you are trying to accomplish. It sounds real good too me.

[HorsePlay]

I share your compassion for the horses that compete in the game. What happened to Ferdinand was unreal. Japan needs to wake up. It is disgusting.

The U.S. has many measures in place to prevent this type of thing from happening these days. All trainers used to try and find horses good homes and give them away, myself included. It happened too me once, but the horse although very underweight was still alive. We went and picked the horse up and got him squared away eventually. That was it for the "giving them away" deal for me. From that point on, all my "giveaways" were leases( usually for one or two hundred dollars) with a contract with specific terms to keep that or the "killers" from happening. The horse could not be re sold, raced, or removed without my express consent. I took a few more back over the years and relocated them but that fixed the problem for me.

Too me, while Ferdinand was a classic horse, some of my very favorite horses from the thousands I must have had, were claimers. I guess it comes down to this. It doesn't matter how great you ability to win is, it is how great your will to win is. Just like people, they come in all shapes, sizes and levels of ability. What separates them is not so much their wealth or success but their willingness to strive to succeed. That is what always touched me in horses as well as people.

You did indeed answer all my questions and I thank you once again for your thoroughness. I was especially glad to read your comments and story that I quoted above. I hope your highly commendable attitudes and policies are more the rule than the exception in the industry. I was going to ask if jockeys and trainers typically form emotional bonds with their horses, or does that only happen in the movies?... but I think you answered that question for me.

I totally get what you said about putting in adequate time to find winners. I'm sure there are a lot of people who will argue that the ROI for the time and effort... especially the time element... invested in studying a field just doesn't yield a payout (by their experience or estimation) to make it worthwhile usually... especially if you maintain the view that low-priced favorites are the safest bet. I have friends who find my endeavors in the area of handicapping to be an exercise in futility. They tell me that I should just keep horse betting a fun pastime as they do, and not get too serious about it. Even the guys that I meet at my local OTB... which is actually a sports bar... tell me "hey, it's some time away from the humdrum and a chance to share a few beers, if you're lucky you win enough to make your afternoons or weekends a free day out."

In my case, it is certainly not an unwillingness to put in the time, but more in actually having the time... as they say, "there are only so many hours". In a way, my inability to spend as much time on this as I would like has been driving my approach and methodology. And, I'm realizing more and more that it has simply been the wrong way to go about it. So, I'm trying a different approach that seems to be promising.

I do have some further questions for you. I'm especially interested in getting some advice on what to watch for in video replays. I have a couple of races in mind that I have bet on the last couple of weeks... I'll need to refer to my notes to see if I can locate these exact races and post them for your review. Before I ask some additional questions, I thought I might share a little bit of how horse racing has been a part of my life... especially since you use the term "back in the day" every once in a while... you might find it a bit interesting... it's definitely a back in the day story.

I am originally from Pennsylvania and grew up in the Pittsburgh area. Back in the late 50's and early 60's, my uncle (my dad's oldest sister's husband) owned 6 race horses. I was 8, 9... no older than 10 at the time... and maybe even as young as 7. There's a whole lot I don't remember, and yet I have some memories of those days that are crystal-clear... which is sort of amazing given that I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, let alone happenings that occured 50 years ago.

My Uncle Al ran his horses at tracks in West Virginia. Uncle Al was quite a character and I was his favorite nephew. Nothing was too good for me. Every Saturday, for what seemed like a year or two, we would drive down to West Virginia. Sometimes my aunt would come with us, but most of the time it was just the two of us. On Sundays, it was family day and not only did my aunt always come with us, my parents did as well. As best I can remember, we could be going to any one of 3 tracks. I know one of them was Waterford Park. I think another one may have been Wheeling Downs. When I left Pennsylvania 25+ years ago, Wheeling Downs was a dog track. But, I think it was a horse track at some point in its history... you probably know for sure.

These were grand times for me. My uncle was "King" wherever we went. He had "his" table in whatever club house we sat in... the wait staff fell all over him because he generously threw money around. Even as a little kid, I could see he took care of people so that he would be taken care of... he was "the man". Most people knew him as "AJ", he was a heavy bettor and liked cards almost as much as he liked horses. Now, I don't know how we got away with it... but I was his "runner". He'd tell me what to bet, give me the money, and I would bring back his tickets. The waitresses and waiters thought I was a cute deal, a little boy doing such a manly thing. I don't know if there were laws at the time about my not being legal, I just remember that it was never an issue or was never questioned. I knew the "Daily Double" and some of the betting lingo, but not much else about what I was doing. There were always other owners and horse people stopping by the table... sometimes I'd run bets for them too. I seldom understood any part of the conversations that took place, but it all fit into a very special, unique experience for me that I completely enjoyed.

There was one guy who was one of my favorites to see at any track... and we saw him very often. They called him "Johnny B" and he worked for my uncle... although I don't know in what capacity. A little guy with sandy brown hair, he was at one time a jockey. I don't know if he ever rode any of my uncle's horses. I only know he wasn't an active jockey when I knew him back then. He took a shine to me and we became good track buddies. The highlight of my times at the track were always when Johnny B took me for a visit to the barn. He'd introduce me to everyone... every jockey we came across, trainers, grooms, walkers... it seemed important to him that everyone knew I was AJ's nephew. Johnny always wore one of those old-time jockey-type caps with the bill pushed back and always called me "Sunny Boy". A horse was always a "pony". I can remember him telling me to put my hand on a horse's leg or hind quarter and saying "feel this pony's power, Sunny Boy, you can make money with this power... always remember... you be good to these ponies and they'll be good to you. They been good to me." It was something he said with almost every barn visit.

I was a shy kid. I never had much to say or knew what to say or had questions to ask. But, those barn visits were very exciting. I was fascinated... mesmerized... by everything I saw. First and foremost the horses, but there was the tack, the jockey's silks, the sticks... and just the activity of the barn was awesome. I wished I could remember more about those times. There are episodes that I only partly recall that seem surreal to me... getting my picture taken with a horse or a jockey... maybe even being in the winner's circle. I swear that Perry Como (he was a native of the area) sat with us one time during some sort of a special derby or race day. The really unfortunate thing is that there's nobody left from those days that I can ask questions to have my reminiscences either confirmed or explained. My uncle and aunt are long gone. My parents both have dementia and have no recollections at all. But, those were the days for sure.

Not long after that... however long it lasted... I learned later when I was coming into my early teens that my uncle lost everything. I don't know exactly when or how, but things got very tough for him, and I saw very little of him for about 10 years afterward. I imagine it was quite a fall for him. It was a "hush-hush" issue for the family and another hazy part of the transition from childhood to my teen years. But, with his financial demise, my association with horse racing in those early years came to an end.

Then, in the early 70's, The Meadows opened just a few minutes south of Pittsburgh. For a while, it was something like old times... but then again, nothing like old times. My uncle and aunt, my parents and I would do the club house at The Meadows. But of course, that track is a harness track. My uncle, although he made a comeback to some degree, never owned another horse. And, all those colorful, wonderful old characters met in West Virginia were not around to enjoy. I got older, and got married, and even The Meadows as I knew it in its early years faded away. I was totally away from any type of horse racing after that... except for occasionally watching the Derby or The Preakness on TV.

Almost a year ago, my web-based business crashed and I had to find something else to do. I had flirted for a long time with marketing online gambling... mostly slanted to casino and poker games. I started to investigate the ins-and-outs of this business. And, through this process got back in touch with horse racing. I didn't immediately think about horse betting being a part of online gambling. But, the more I looked at online horse betting, the more the memories and feelings started rushing back. It may sound kind of corny, but I felt like I was seeing a good, old friend again. So, I decided that I wanted to make what was once a source of passion and great enjoyment a big part of my life again... but on a more serious level.

This brings me to where I am at now, and I have a few quick questions for you...
1. Is there any behavior a horse might exhibit during the race warm-up or preview... like bobbing their heads up and down... sort of putting a little prance in their walk... or nipping at their walker or other horses... that might indicate the horse is especially up for attacking the job at hand?
2. Although on a small video screen it can be hard to see, it sometimes appears that during warm-up a horse might be drooling... does this mean anything good or bad?
3. If a horse is appearing "hyper" or just ornery right before a race... could this mean he's feeling high energy (probably a good thing)... or could it mean he's going to be hard to control?
4. What exactly does a jockey do to get his horse to move out of the starting gate, or is it mostly the horse reacting to the gate opening?

I'll relate why I'm asking these questions in a future post, but your continued input and sharing your knowledge and experience to the degree that you do IMO is the best thing going on at any SBR forum. Hope I didn't take up too much of your time with this long-winded post.

[str]

Lasix :


Because it was legalized at a time when seemingly all racing states were pushing for more racing dates and new states were entering in to the game, this whole debate is skewed with statistics from what ever direction it befits the argument. Listening to any side is the same as listening to a politician state inaccurate blurbs that you have limited knowledge about and therefore reason that what he/she said made sense, only to find out later that the portrayal was a half truth that confused the voter. So with that, let's go with what we know.
Most U.S. tracks are located in areas of big industry. As a result, the air quality is poor. Many European tracks are away from big industry and the air is cleaner. The U.S. is for Lasix. The European's are not. No shock there.
When the Meadowlands first opened, racing a horse there in Sept. and most of Oct. was a nightmare. Every horse was seemingly bleeding and bleeding bad. I all but refused to enter there until mid to late Nov. when the air started to clear up. I am not going to make jokes about New Jersey and what it smells like going up I 95 near East Rutherford but the horses did not lie. It smells like sulfur and it seemed like you could cut the air with a knife.
If something is to be done about Lasix, it should start with graded stakes races IMO. That is because those horses will in time become the top of the next generation of broodmares and stallions.
The breeding industry has been tainted in recent decades by allowing stallions that would not have been accepted at such, becoming big players in the game. Back in the day, horses that truly had bleeding problems or even breathing problems were shunned by clients . Today, we don't even know who really is a bad bleeder do we.The same goes with mares that would have not been allowed to breed to some studs because they might taint the studs image. That no longer exists either.
Dr. Alex Hardhill from Ky. was one of the greatest vets to ever come along. He was the first to introduce Lasix .Without knowing it until decades later and a couple of years before he died in 2005, he said that he gave Lasix to Northern Dancer in the 1964 Derby. He beat Hill Rise a neck . It was illegal and unknown then. Did it make a difference? You be the judge. I will say this. It is my opinion that damn near every stallion that Northern Dancer has produced has gone on to produce bleeder after bleeder as well as plenty of champion's. Now, is that unfair? Maybe. But if someone wants to make a list of those N. Dancer's that were not bleeders, another list can be made of N. Dancer's that were bleeders that will be many, many times longer.
Being as N. Dancer is probably as classic a bloodline as there is in the U.S. as well as the world, was that where the problem originated? I don't know but it didn't help did it.
So, starting with the graded races would make sense. But the fallout from that in the sales arena as well as when a Phipps horse or some other stuffy billionaire's colors come back with blood all over them in a televised grade 1 would be terrible. So I don't have an answer as to how it will play out. I only present logic as to how to possibly make the breeding industry stronger. This will take years to implement however, so your guess is as good as mine on what will be decided.
As to everyday racing, I am not so sure that it would be as catastrophic as predicted. Horses will need more rest time and time away from the track. That will lead to less horses to fill races from and the fields are already way too small. The best of all worlds would be to have tracks work together like it used too be, like Md. from Jan. until May. Delaware from June until Sept. and a fall venue somewhere close by. But good luck getting race track owners and horseman to agree on that. It's a complete mess and nobody is willing to budge. Until both sides begin to trust one another, not much will happen. Banning Lasix might force some needed change but that will be really hard on a lot of people. In the end, it might very well improve the whole system but many will pay a steep price. It's anything but an easy fix.
I could go on and on ,but instead ,I will stop at this point so anyone that has a question on the subject can ask it. If not, I will write some more on Lasix down the road.

[HorsePlay]

Where do outside, but peripheral organizations stand on lasix, and for that matter, all other drugs being used in horse racing? I'm not familiar enough with what those organizations might be. But, my first thoughts were groups like the American Veterinary Association, the American or International Humane Society... I don't know if there's anything equivalent to the Food and Drug Administration that pertains to animals, but do groups like these have a stand, take a position or have any influence on the use of these drugs? On a state or federal level, has there ever been legislation that seeks or sought to control the use of drugs at race tracks on any individual's or group's urging or petition?

[str]

Where do outside, but peripheral organizations stand on lasix, and for that matter, all other drugs being used in horse racing? I'm not familiar enough with what those organizations might be. But, my first thoughts were groups like the American Veterinary Association, the American or International Humane Society... I don't know if there's anything equivalent to the Food and Drug Administration that pertains to animals, but do groups like these have a stand, take a position or have any influence on the use of these drugs? On a state or federal level, has there ever been legislation that seeks or sought to control the use of drugs at race tracks on any individual's or group's urging or petition?

The AAEP ( American Assn. of Equine Practitioners) was always firmly for the use of Lasix. I have not kept up so I don't know any recent decisions.
The prominent vets in Md. would meet with the chemists that tested all the race samples as often as necessary to try and both be not only aware of what was going on but on the same page towards a common goal which was protecting the integrity of the sport in Md. and at the same time, using the necessary drugs as too the best interest of the horse.The problem was, in that period of time where new drugs were coming around seemingly every day, the chemists could not keep up.You can only have a positive if you test for any certain drug. If you did not know how to test for something, it would not be a positive. So the crooks had an upper hand for a while. That has now gone away. The problem is simple in this regard. Just like wall street , politics, or whatever the case may be, you will always find plenty of honest, hard working, fair people. But you will also find crooks and sleaze bags that will do anything they can for a buck and/or to beat the system. Vets are no different. Pretty sure I have said that Md. had one or two crooked vets running around on the backside in my day. Totally true. It's not really even a debate.
I don't know about the humane society but will tell you that in the 70s, and 80s they were so clueless with some of the crap they tried to come up with that it was obvious that they really had no idea at all as to what they were talking about. Again, I don't know about what is going on now.
Have an influence?: The AAEP does, and I know that when people that know what they are talking about within the sport get together to try and hammer out what is fair or not and right or wrong, many good things towards the sport do indeed evolve. There are many, many, really honest and good people that love the game and work hard to try and make the game work correctly.
Also, the drugs used by the honest vets are all FDA approved. At least they all were when I was there.
The state controls the racing commission which is the overseeing body of the sport in each jurisdiction. If you read what I wrote about training for a commissioner a ways back I think that that sums up quite a bit. I also have a story I should share about the commission when something came up with me and maybe I will. It involves the head of the commission and a hearing I was involved in in the late 70s ( I think). The heads are appointed by the governor. This guy was the owner of several car dealerships. So plenty of back scratching going on there. Kind of pathetic IMO.This icon sums up my stance on appointed heads .
I mean, why put someone with REAL racing intelligence in that position when you can put a car dealer there instead.
As to the Federal level of involvement, they are currently talking about that in congress. What a huge mistake that would be. The conflict of interest door would be wide open. Let's hope that it never reaches that . If anyone can finish screwing up something in need of a fix, it a group of politicians. Look no further than the calamity with the banks that they bailed out, never prosecuted, and who will now not preform in the loan arena without having such a severe edge in LTV( loan to value) that most people that are deserving of a loan, can not get one.

[Freeze1000]

where do you post your picks?

[Dark Horse]

I'm trying to understand the progression from 2 year olds to 3 year olds. Initially, I had assumed that what I had learned about 3 years olds and up could be applied to 2 year olds. I was wrong. Looking over my data I'm starting to think that 2 year olds run a type of race that is very much simplified (not simpler to cap). They're just getting a feel for the jockey and for what it means to race, and the actual race is still a fuzzy concept. Later on, as their understanding of racing improves, they connect to the race more consciously. I want to ask you if that basic concept is on the right track. What I'm really trying to understand is what 3 year olds are aware of that 2 year olds have yet to learn or are gradually becoming aware of. The learning curve, in other words.

[str]

where do you post your picks?

I don't post picks. I am a former trainer. Lots to read here if you are interested.

[str]

I'm trying to understand the progression from 2 year olds to 3 year olds. Initially, I had assumed that what I had learned about 3 years olds and up could be applied to 2 year olds. I was wrong. Looking over my data I'm starting to think that 2 year olds run a type of race that is very much simplified (not simpler to cap). They're just getting a feel for the jockey and for what it means to race, and the actual race is still a fuzzy concept. Later on, as their understanding of racing improves, they connect to the race more consciously. I want to ask you if that basic concept is on the right track. What I'm really trying to understand is what 3 year olds are aware of that 2 year olds have yet to learn or are gradually becoming aware of. The learning curve, in other words.

Is your concept on the right track? It is totally correct as far as races are concerned.

What are 3 year olds aware of that 2 year olds are not? What happens is that the babies are put in to races with a broad difference as far as what they might or might not fully understand. A small minority % of horses fully understand what is going on the first time they race. Many horses that break in front and win are actually " running scared". They have made the lead and feel as though they are running for their lives.They don't dare stop is what they are thinking. Trainers will put these horses in the gate and work them in company all ways possible inside, in between, outside even behind horses getting some dirt kicked in their face, all in preparation for their first race.( or not, depending on the trainer) But some things are not available for practice. The biggest of these might be crowd noise and a lot of activity with people in the grandstand or clubhouse.That is not going on in the morning at the track.This is why trainers school horses in the paddock. They are trying to get them used to some crowd noise as well as get the feel for what is coming in the days ahead. Also, horses that run at night have to deal with shadows that were probably not there during morning training. That is why night tracks will try and run 2 year old races early in the card during the summer. It is still somewhat light out and less for the young horse to have to overcome.
Because these horses are all learning this, not only at their own speed (some learn more quickly than others) but also by many different teachers (the trainer) , there can be a vast difference in what the horse has understood or been taught. Because of this, following the success rate of trainers with firsters as well as second starts is very pertinent to any decision as to who to bet.
I had a 2 year old that won first time wire to wire. He ran scared and won. He was a decent prospect. I wanted him to learn to relax though and tried to get him to do so. In his second start he laid maybe 4th and closed a few lengths to finish 2nd in an allowance race. I worked on that premise a little more and when I ran him back, I stretched him out to 7/8s, hoping he would lay 4th again with the added distance similar to his last start. He broke great and took himself back to last and was probably 12 lengths back after a 1/4 mile. When asked to run, he circled the field and won by 6 eased up! I had no idea that he was going to do that. This horse just understood what I was trying to show him and really grasped it. Most horses might have needed 2 or 3 more starts to get that accomplished. He just learned it and was able to handle it much quicker than most horses would have. Him being smart made me look smart.
So I think that the combination of the horse learning at their pace combined with the trainer teaching it at their pace equates to a broad variation in the learning progress of young horses.
Hope that helps.

[str]

You did indeed answer all my questions and I thank you once again for your thoroughness. I was especially glad to read your comments and story that I quoted above. I hope your highly commendable attitudes and policies are more the rule than the exception in the industry. I was going to ask if jockeys and trainers typically form emotional bonds with their horses, or does that only happen in the movies?... but I think you answered that question for me.

I totally get what you said about putting in adequate time to find winners. I'm sure there are a lot of people who will argue that the ROI for the time and effort... especially the time element... invested in studying a field just doesn't yield a payout (by their experience or estimation) to make it worthwhile usually... especially if you maintain the view that low-priced favorites are the safest bet. I have friends who find my endeavors in the area of handicapping to be an exercise in futility. They tell me that I should just keep horse betting a fun pastime as they do, and not get too serious about it. Even the guys that I meet at my local OTB... which is actually a sports bar... tell me "hey, it's some time away from the humdrum and a chance to share a few beers, if you're lucky you win enough to make your afternoons or weekends a free day out."

In my case, it is certainly not an unwillingness to put in the time, but more in actually having the time... as they say, "there are only so many hours". In a way, my inability to spend as much time on this as I would like has been driving my approach and methodology. And, I'm realizing more and more that it has simply been the wrong way to go about it. So, I'm trying a different approach that seems to be promising.

I do have some further questions for you. I'm especially interested in getting some advice on what to watch for in video replays. I have a couple of races in mind that I have bet on the last couple of weeks... I'll need to refer to my notes to see if I can locate these exact races and post them for your review. Before I ask some additional questions, I thought I might share a little bit of how horse racing has been a part of my life... especially since you use the term "back in the day" every once in a while... you might find it a bit interesting... it's definitely a back in the day story.

I am originally from Pennsylvania and grew up in the Pittsburgh area. Back in the late 50's and early 60's, my uncle (my dad's oldest sister's husband) owned 6 race horses. I was 8, 9... no older than 10 at the time... and maybe even as young as 7. There's a whole lot I don't remember, and yet I have some memories of those days that are crystal-clear... which is sort of amazing given that I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, let alone happenings that occured 50 years ago.

My Uncle Al ran his horses at tracks in West Virginia. Uncle Al was quite a character and I was his favorite nephew. Nothing was too good for me. Every Saturday, for what seemed like a year or two, we would drive down to West Virginia. Sometimes my aunt would come with us, but most of the time it was just the two of us. On Sundays, it was family day and not only did my aunt always come with us, my parents did as well. As best I can remember, we could be going to any one of 3 tracks. I know one of them was Waterford Park. I think another one may have been Wheeling Downs. When I left Pennsylvania 25+ years ago, Wheeling Downs was a dog track. But, I think it was a horse track at some point in its history... you probably know for sure.

These were grand times for me. My uncle was "King" wherever we went. He had "his" table in whatever club house we sat in... the wait staff fell all over him because he generously threw money around. Even as a little kid, I could see he took care of people so that he would be taken care of... he was "the man". Most people knew him as "AJ", he was a heavy bettor and liked cards almost as much as he liked horses. Now, I don't know how we got away with it... but I was his "runner". He'd tell me what to bet, give me the money, and I would bring back his tickets. The waitresses and waiters thought I was a cute deal, a little boy doing such a manly thing. I don't know if there were laws at the time about my not being legal, I just remember that it was never an issue or was never questioned. I knew the "Daily Double" and some of the betting lingo, but not much else about what I was doing. There were always other owners and horse people stopping by the table... sometimes I'd run bets for them too. I seldom understood any part of the conversations that took place, but it all fit into a very special, unique experience for me that I completely enjoyed.

There was one guy who was one of my favorites to see at any track... and we saw him very often. They called him "Johnny B" and he worked for my uncle... although I don't know in what capacity. A little guy with sandy brown hair, he was at one time a jockey. I don't know if he ever rode any of my uncle's horses. I only know he wasn't an active jockey when I knew him back then. He took a shine to me and we became good track buddies. The highlight of my times at the track were always when Johnny B took me for a visit to the barn. He'd introduce me to everyone... every jockey we came across, trainers, grooms, walkers... it seemed important to him that everyone knew I was AJ's nephew. Johnny always wore one of those old-time jockey-type caps with the bill pushed back and always called me "Sunny Boy". A horse was always a "pony". I can remember him telling me to put my hand on a horse's leg or hind quarter and saying "feel this pony's power, Sunny Boy, you can make money with this power... always remember... you be good to these ponies and they'll be good to you. They been good to me." It was something he said with almost every barn visit.

I was a shy kid. I never had much to say or knew what to say or had questions to ask. But, those barn visits were very exciting. I was fascinated... mesmerized... by everything I saw. First and foremost the horses, but there was the tack, the jockey's silks, the sticks... and just the activity of the barn was awesome. I wished I could remember more about those times. There are episodes that I only partly recall that seem surreal to me... getting my picture taken with a horse or a jockey... maybe even being in the winner's circle. I swear that Perry Como (he was a native of the area) sat with us one time during some sort of a special derby or race day. The really unfortunate thing is that there's nobody left from those days that I can ask questions to have my reminiscences either confirmed or explained. My uncle and aunt are long gone. My parents both have dementia and have no recollections at all. But, those were the days for sure.

Not long after that... however long it lasted... I learned later when I was coming into my early teens that my uncle lost everything. I don't know exactly when or how, but things got very tough for him, and I saw very little of him for about 10 years afterward. I imagine it was quite a fall for him. It was a "hush-hush" issue for the family and another hazy part of the transition from childhood to my teen years. But, with his financial demise, my association with horse racing in those early years came to an end.

Then, in the early 70's, The Meadows opened just a few minutes south of Pittsburgh. For a while, it was something like old times... but then again, nothing like old times. My uncle and aunt, my parents and I would do the club house at The Meadows. But of course, that track is a harness track. My uncle, although he made a comeback to some degree, never owned another horse. And, all those colorful, wonderful old characters met in West Virginia were not around to enjoy. I got older, and got married, and even The Meadows as I knew it in its early years faded away. I was totally away from any type of horse racing after that... except for occasionally watching the Derby or The Preakness on TV.

Almost a year ago, my web-based business crashed and I had to find something else to do. I had flirted for a long time with marketing online gambling... mostly slanted to casino and poker games. I started to investigate the ins-and-outs of this business. And, through this process got back in touch with horse racing. I didn't immediately think about horse betting being a part of online gambling. But, the more I looked at online horse betting, the more the memories and feelings started rushing back. It may sound kind of corny, but I felt like I was seeing a good, old friend again. So, I decided that I wanted to make what was once a source of passion and great enjoyment a big part of my life again... but on a more serious level.

This brings me to where I am at now, and I have a few quick questions for you...
1. Is there any behavior a horse might exhibit during the race warm-up or preview... like bobbing their heads up and down... sort of putting a little prance in their walk... or nipping at their walker or other horses... that might indicate the horse is especially up for attacking the job at hand?
2. Although on a small video screen it can be hard to see, it sometimes appears that during warm-up a horse might be drooling... does this mean anything good or bad?
3. If a horse is appearing "hyper" or just ornery right before a race... could this mean he's feeling high energy (probably a good thing)... or could it mean he's going to be hard to control?
4. What exactly does a jockey do to get his horse to move out of the starting gate, or is it mostly the horse reacting to the gate opening?

I'll relate why I'm asking these questions in a future post, but your continued input and sharing your knowledge and experience to the degree that you do IMO is the best thing going on at any SBR forum. Hope I didn't take up too much of your time with this long-winded post.

1. Not without knowing how the horse might normally warm up. There are plenty of subtleties that exist but at this point I would probably confuse you without actually being able to show you the horse and speak directly to it.

2.Horses with tong ties are more likely to be doing that . It can also be individual nerves that make a horse do those types of things. They can also be biting at the big leather saddle of the pony boy taking them to post. Lastly, assuming that it is still legal, we used to be able to give horses a liquid syringe full( 6 0z.) of "windy" to drink before they came over to be saddled. In layman's terms it was kind of like putting vicks around their nose to help open them up their breathing passages. The drooling could be coming from something like that. Again, nothing to think anything of.

3. Every horse is different, so knowing how the horse should warm up is important . Having said that, it is rarely a good sign when the horse is balking as it approaches the gate. If it usually does not do that, it is not good at all. Kind of like "they are trying to tell you something".
If it was a negative thing, it would not mean that they would be hard to control, it would probably mean that they will not be willing to exert much effort in the up coming race.

4.Horses are taught at a painfully slow pace to learn to walk in, stand and when the doors open, leave there running. It takes usually about 30 trips to the gate before they are given a gate card and allowed to start. So, the answer is that it is the horse reacting to the doors opening. Most horses are so darn glad to get out of there that they gladly leave there quickly. Most horses do not care for the gate. Eventually, they realize that it won't hurt them and they will survive the ordeal but it takes a while. It is really quite scary for most of them at first.
Watch the jockey some time, when preparing to break. They will grab a handful of mane so as to not fall back on the horses mouth when they break. Zero to 30 MPH in a couple of strides makes you hang on tight.

Your story is fabulous! This is the type of story that comes with track lore all the time.
A couple of quick answers to the story :
Wheeling was a horse track back then.
A track called "Pitt ParK" was also running in the very early 70s. I remember handicapping a few of those races while still in high school. It was in the Md. issue along with Charlestown or Shenandoah and Waterford . Most races were 1,500 claiming races.
Kids could be runners all the time back then. I did my share of that for my dad as well.

[Dark Horse]

Thanks for pointing out they run scared. Had no idea. That ties into what I was seeing in my model. They're not truly conscious of the race yet. Great to know that it's the relaxation part that allows them to become more aware and in control! That's something I'll chew on for a while. My concept? The measurement part is taken care of, in four standard quadrants, but I'm continuing to learn to read those measurements as they relate to each other, which, it turns out, is different for 2 year olds. It may very well be that 2 year olds run outside of my model, but for now I'm taking the approach that they can help me improve my understanding of the information that is there. Separate from that I'm looking into developing some sort of standard learning curve for the period three months before and after they turn three -half a year total-, to see where they chime in. For instance, Shackleford during that period ran, chronologically (and with two 'dirty data' tossed out): 85-89-93-97 before the Preakness... A clear learning curve and improvement. I'm not expecting horses to develop as steadily as that, but a standard graph would be helpful; if only to get a basic understanding of what is going on during that time.

[str]

Thanks for pointing out they run scared. Had no idea. That ties into what I was seeing in my model. They're not truly conscious of the race yet. Great to know that it's the relaxation part that allows them to become more aware and in control! That's something I'll chew on for a while. My concept? The measurement part is taken care of, in four standard quadrants, but I'm continuing to learn to read those measurements as they relate to each other, which, it turns out, is different for 2 year olds. It may very well be that 2 year olds run outside of my model, but for now I'm taking the approach that they can help me improve my understanding of the information that is there. Separate from that I'm looking into developing some sort of standard learning curve for the period three months before and after they turn three -half a year total-, to see where they chime in. For instance, Shackleford during that period ran, chronologically (and with two 'dirty data' tossed out): 85-89-93-97 before the Preakness... A clear learning curve and improvement. I'm not expecting horses to develop as steadily as that, but a standard graph would be helpful; if only to get a basic understanding of what is going on during that time.

Just to make sure that I am not misleading anyone, when I say that a horse ran it's first race "scared" it would refer to a horse that went wire to wire in winning the race. For the most part, they are all somewhat concerned with all the newness to what is going on but the run scared phrase is something that trainers and jockeys will usually acknowledge if their horse went gate to wire in front. Obviously some horses are clearly better than there competition and were going to win anyway but plenty of firsters do win on the front because of this.
Hope that clears things up.

[Dark Horse]

I'm still wondering if a serious study of 2 year olds is worth the effort, as their inexperience may manifest in so many ways. Fear seemed a good starting point (or separation from 3 year olds), and I thought the explanation of avoiding shadows at night spoke to that as well. But if you look at how Secret Circle finishes the race below... That's the cream of the crop and he seems to be heading for his trainer in the stands rather than the finish line. It worked out in this case, but throw enough inexperience and mistakes into the mix and pretty soon the crapshoot dynamic starts to surface. Not much is written about these young horses, by the way, in terms of studies.

[str]

I'm still wondering if a serious study of 2 year olds is worth the effort, as their inexperience may manifest in so many ways. Fear seemed a good starting point (or separation from 3 year olds), and I thought the explanation of avoiding shadows at night spoke to that as well. But if you look at how Secret Circle finishes the race below... That's the cream of the crop and he seems to be heading for his trainer in the stands rather than the finish line. It worked out in this case, but throw enough inexperience and mistakes into the mix and pretty soon the crapshoot dynamic starts to surface. Not much is written about these young horses, by the way, in terms of studies.

In this case the horse was drifting because of the repeated stick use in the left hand. Yes, he briefly moved a bit out and in as he straightened away for home but the jock was letting the horse run on cruise control still. If you notice at the 5/16s pole( about 56 seconds on the full tape) the horses ears are pricking a bit. Basically, he is waiting for horses to challenge him. The slight out and in movement came from the horse just as the jock moved his hands up the reigns and got a higher cross on the reigns.That is when the rider went to work. The horse then exploded from 1:03 on the tape until he was distracted from the over usage of the stick from the left side ( 1:17 ). As soon as the rider put the stick in his right hand and the horse saw it, he straightened out and the inside horse that was rallying could gain no further .
Some horses will drift out when tired but in this case , it sure seemed consistent with the stick position. Without remembering the winners form, he probably did not have that hard a ride with the left hand prior to this race, if any . And because most riders start with the stick in there right hand, it was something that the horse became concerned with.
If you remember , I talked about the repeated use of the stick in the same hand during the race( post # 101), as well as riding left handed to change the typical routine and get more out of the horse. I think that using the left hand was a great move by whoever suggested it but because the horse is only two, using it 6-7 times in a row was maybe a bit to much. But the horse was running from it so it's awfully hard to question the jockey about that. As Chris would have said, maybe twice and switch, go twice right and switch back left. That would have been the perfect way to handle it but those questions do not need to be asked when you are standing in the winners circle. However, if you are looking to the future, discussing that well after the fact is a must.

[Dark Horse]

Thanks str. Great explanation. I remember the jockey was asked by the tv crew what the heck happened in the stretch, but he sidestepped the question. So now we know. Getting used to the stick seems a pretty big factor (Here Comes Frazier in October), so another reason for me to proceed with caution where it comes to 2 year olds. Happy holidays to you. Your insight has been invaluable.

[str]

Thanks str. Great explanation. I remember the jockey was asked by the tv crew what the heck happened in the stretch, but he sidestepped the question. So now we know. Getting used to the stick seems a pretty big factor (Here Comes Frazier in October), so another reason for me to proceed with caution where it comes to 2 year olds. Happy holidays to you. Your insight has been invaluable.

It is my pleasure. Happy holiday's to you as well.

[str]

I watched the Laurel replay (that gate position brings back memories) of the 1 1/16th mile race that Rapid Redux won a couple of weeks ago on DRF.com.
I was stunned at the final 1/8th of the race.
I have not seen a form or watched any of R.R.s other races but from what I assumed he was winning these races by 3,4,5 lengths most of the time. Maybe I am wrong about that. Anyway, I want to let people know what I think I saw.
Rapid Redux "beat the gate" from the one hole breaking almost on the turn. I said it somewhere but it bears repeating for anyone that plays at Laurel. If the one horse going 1 1/16th at Laurel has speed and no other horse has at least 2 lengths more speed very early in their races(meaning gate speed) and all the horses break equally, the one horse will make the lead by at least a length or two every time! So when I saw R.R. have the one hole AND break that fast in a race that, without seeing the PPs but only watching the riders, probably did not have any other speed of his caliber in it, the race was over after 5 steps as too who was going to win. Something way out of the ordinary was going to need to take place for anyone to beat him.
As the race played out, R.R. got fractions of 24+ 48+ 113+ with no prompting from the jockey. So it was no surprise when a horse or two tried to move close at the 3/16s pole, R.R. moved away with ease and opened up 3 lengths. But the last 1/8th of a mile was as ugly as it could have been IMO.
Again, without seeing the form I am going at this blindly but if you are dominating a select group of horses over and over again how do you only win that race by a 1/2 length? It was not the rider doing this. Was it the horse pulling himself up? It did not look that way . Doesn't he win off most of the time? Was it the track? Was it a big outside bias that day? I do not know but am assuming the answer is no.
When you get as easy a trip as he did and only win by a 1/2 length, something is not as it has been for months and months. If he had won from the 6 post and worked somewhat to get the lead or dueled inside or outside at some point, it would be no problem. I just can not express how huge it is at Laurel going this exact distance to beat the gate from the one hole and walk the dog as the favorite the way the jockey did and only win by a 1/2.
R.R. now goes to a flat mile race that is run around one turn and out of the chute. A completely different race. Having no idea how the race shapes up speed wise or quality of competition wise , I don't think it is a stretch to say that if R.R. doesn't run better than his last race, he will probably lose. I hope not, because it is a real good story. But that last race was not at all impressive.

[HorsePlay]

Hi str, Happy New Year to you and all others who may read this post. At this point, I can only ask this question in a very general sense... what are your thoughts, advice, observations on getting involved in a race horse partnership or syndicate? I design and build websites and I was recently contacted by a local Arizona trainer who wants a website for his business. He sells shares in horses he's working with that he has either bought privately or claimed.


I have never built a website for this type of business before, so I've been doing some research by finding and visiting the websites of other trainers and people who sell partnerships. Surprising to me, there are a lot of these sites... also surprising is that partnerships can be relatively affordable. I get the impression from some of the sales pitches made by these sites that the attraction of horse "ownership" for many investors is largely for "bragging rights"... going to the winner's circle, visiting the barn, etc.


I'm kind of intrigued by all of this. My main interest would be in seeing the sport from the inside. Even if I didn't make a dime, the monthly cost might be worth it for the educational aspects. I don't have time to be involved with it for the "glamour" side or rewards, but I would like to experience as much as possible interacting with the trainer and understanding how he manages and makes decisions.


When I get back with him, I might even propose a partial trade where I provide the website and monthly or on-going maintenance plus some money (I know the value of the website work only goes so far in the economic scheme) in exchange for a share. So, anything you can share or wisdom you can lend... even if it's a very short and concise "don't do it!!!"... would be greatly appreciated.

[wtt0315]

Hi str, Happy New Year to you and all others who may read this post. At this point, I can only ask this question in a very general sense... what are your thoughts, advice, observations on getting involved in a race horse partnership or syndicate? I design and build websites and I was recently contacted by a local Arizona trainer who wants a website for his business. He sells shares in horses he's working with that he has either bought privately or claimed. I have never built a website for this type of business before, so I've been doing some research by finding and visiting the websites of other trainers and people who sell partnerships. Surprising to me, there are a lot of these sites... also surprising is that partnerships can be relatively affordable. I get the impression from some of the sales pitches made by these sites that the attraction of horse "ownership" for many investors is largely for "bragging rights"... going to the winner's circle, visiting the barn, etc. I'm kind of intrigued by all of this. My main interest would be in seeing the sport from the inside. Even if I didn't make a dime, the monthly cost might be worth it for the educational aspects. I don't have time to be involved with it for the "glamour" side or rewards, but I would like to experience as much as possible interacting with the trainer and understanding how he manages and makes decisions. When I get back with him, I might even propose a partial trade where I provide the website and monthly or on-going maintenance plus some money (I know the value of the website work only goes so far in the economic scheme) in exchange for a share. So, anything you can share or wisdom you can lend... even if it's a very short and concise "don't do it!!!"... would be greatly appreciated.

str can definatly answer your questions. I have been part of a partnership for a while now with a pretty damn good horse.. if you have any specific questions please feel free to pm me and i will help you out best as possible

[HorsePlay]

str can definatly answer your questions. I have been part of a partnership for a while now with a pretty damn good horse.. if you have any specific questions please feel free to pm me and i will help you out best as possible

Hey, wtt... thanks for your comments and offer. I only started talking with this trainer just before Christmas. Since then he's mailed me a mostly out-dated and very simple brochure about himself and his experience. He seems like a very sincere, down-to-earth guy. I live less than 30-minutes from Turf Paradise and I will probably meet with him there sometime next week. He's got a horse running on Monday I believe.

You say you have a "pretty damn good horse"... that's awesome. All things considered... has it been a good experience for you? Are you getting what you expected out of it?

[str]

Hi str, Happy New Year to you and all others who may read this post. At this point, I can only ask this question in a very general sense... what are your thoughts, advice, observations on getting involved in a race horse partnership or syndicate? I design and build websites and I was recently contacted by a local Arizona trainer who wants a website for his business. He sells shares in horses he's working with that he has either bought privately or claimed.


I have never built a website for this type of business before, so I've been doing some research by finding and visiting the websites of other trainers and people who sell partnerships. Surprising to me, there are a lot of these sites... also surprising is that partnerships can be relatively affordable. I get the impression from some of the sales pitches made by these sites that the attraction of horse "ownership" for many investors is largely for "bragging rights"... going to the winner's circle, visiting the barn, etc.


I'm kind of intrigued by all of this. My main interest would be in seeing the sport from the inside. Even if I didn't make a dime, the monthly cost might be worth it for the educational aspects. I don't have time to be involved with it for the "glamour" side or rewards, but I would like to experience as much as possible interacting with the trainer and understanding how he manages and makes decisions.


When I get back with him, I might even propose a partial trade where I provide the website and monthly or on-going maintenance plus some money (I know the value of the website work only goes so far in the economic scheme) in exchange for a share. So, anything you can share or wisdom you can lend... even if it's a very short and concise "don't do it!!!"... would be greatly appreciated.

Thoughts on getting into a racing partnership?
If you can afford it, it is a great way to see another side of racing. WTT did this a year or so ago and he could help you as well.
I am happy to do as little or as much as you would like to make sure that you are getting in to a good spot.
Happy to help .
Just say the word.

[Dark Horse]

The Derby trail continues this Saturday at several tracks. So far, two year olds remind me of Bambi on ice, if you remember the movie. I'm trying to figure out at what point, that can be identified, those horses make the transition to where they can skate with confidence, to use the Bambi metaphor. I know you're not really into speed figures, but I believe there's something about a horse finding it's base speed. On neutral days he will run that speed, on excellent days he will go much over that speed, and on terrible days he won't come close. In general, I think a horse establishes his base speed in the third year. In other words, I'm not really looking for peaks in speed yet, at this point. Those, at least in my view, are not within the horse's control unless the base speed is first established. I don't know if you agree with this general idea, but if you do, I would ask you for signs in the horse's development that suggest he's getting to this point or has reached it.

[str]

The Derby trail continues this Saturday at several tracks. So far, two year olds remind me of Bambi on ice, if you remember the movie. I'm trying to figure out at what point, that can be identified, those horses make the transition to where they can skate with confidence, to use the Bambi metaphor. I know you're not really into speed figures, but I believe there's something about a horse finding it's base speed. On neutral days he will run that speed, on excellent days he will go much over that speed, and on terrible days he won't come close. In general, I think a horse establishes his base speed in the third year. In other words, I'm not really looking for peaks in speed yet, at this point. Those, at least in my view, are not within the horse's control unless the base speed is first established. I don't know if you agree with this general idea, but if you do, I would ask you for signs in the horse's development that suggest he's getting to this point or has reached it.

I do agree with your base premise . And I know that you know, that I am all about a horse running well or poorly based on pace, bias(if any) and trip. Even Andy Beyer finally acknowledged that in the mid 80s. So with that in mind, I do agree with you and what you are trying to accomplish within your model. With that said... Trainers are not trying to push for every ounce of effort with babies. They simply can't. It is too early on in the horses career to try and do so. It won't work if you try, so why try.
What is so unique about the Derby trail is that it is one of the few times during the year that the handicapper knows exactly what the main objective is. As we approach the Florida Derby for instance, all the trainers will be hopeful of winning the race. But in reality, while the trainers horse will be fit to run, it won't have been pointed and pushed for that exact day. The exact day is the 1st Saturday in May. That's what all the other races are there for. They are preps. Do trainers want to win them? Of course they do, but there horse is scheduled to PEAK at the Derby. So, watching these races will give you a solid start and yes, I would start now, but all the horses should , in a perfect world, be better athletes in early May than they are now. And most will.
This might not hold true for sprinters. For the Vexor's of the world, you can probably be real close in understanding his best, median and worst already, if not real soon. It might improve a little but not nearly as much as the horses that are trying to learn how to run longer distances and handle two turns. That is a completely different scenario.
What I think might be helpful, is to watch for horses that can overcome some adversity along the way. Maybe a horse that rallied late with no pace, or a horse that laid 3rd in a very hot pace and finished 5th while all the other speeds ran way back.Maybe a horse that was in repeated trouble but continued to compete. Subtle signs along the way can lead to seeing things that others can not see come Derby day. (Here I go with the pace, bias, and trip thing again).But I promise you, those 3 keys will unlock who is going to run excellent and who is not , more than anything else.
Also, following there speed figures, most horses should improve from now until April in the Wood or whatever last prep they run in. They are only now beginning to gain the strength and fitness that will allow them to compete at the longer distances. And because they are very much like people when it comes to development in that they are all a little different, some will mature quicker than others both mentally as well as physically. One thing that you have going for you is that most of the horses are at the same "par level prior to peak" if that makes sense. I mean, all the trainers have there eyes on the same prize and the same date. So most of the horses should be getting better at the same rate as far as a BASE figure is concerned.
So the answer on signs for reaching 3 year old development is a tricky one. Do know that the trainers are pointing for peak effort in early May. For some, it will have shown by early April, for others, not until Derby day. And for others still, they will physically fall short and not make the Derby but be ready to go for PEAK by the Belmont. That is the puzzle each year, but at least we all know what the trainers main objective is.
Hope that helps.

[Dark Horse]

That's very helpful. So it's about maturity and the ability to recognize it. I suppose I was lucky to start developing this model at the point where horses had already reached that maturity level. The Derby trail will require its own adaptation. Two very different halves of the calendar year.

[str]

With heavy rain approaching for Md. , Phila., N.Y. I thought I would take a minute to point out winter racing track maintenance practices.

Each track superintendent will have his own routine but with extra cushion laid down for the winter , when a heavy rain is in the forecast, each super must decide on his course of action for the following days. In Maryland the track would almost certainly be graded strongly away from the rail before serious wet weather. This is to prevent losing the cushion by it washing away or off the track and down inside in the swale created to catch the run off. Because the track has an angled pitch to it, the water will run down towards the inside from the crown( usually about 20 feet off the outside fence were the angle changes ). So dirt is pushed up towards the middle of the track. Over the next 100 or so trips around by the harrows the dirt will filter back down the hill towards the rail and a regrading will need to take place again. So, the more trips around with the harrows, the more the track needs to be graded.
If you were ever going to start tracking how the track plays bias wise, now would be the time. Once it is graded , however good, bad, or indifferent the rail is, it will only become worse until the next grading. And because you can not grade mud, that might be longer than the typical time between gradings. Milder weather makes the track more manageable but it will get cold soon and when it does, the rail will fluctuate from day to day.
While it is nice to bet knowing that the inside or outside is a definite edge , the best gamblers scenario is when a horse that figured to run well, runs versus a bias and runs poorly. That horse needs to go on a watch for list. If the horse is in a good spot next time it runs, chances are it will run very well, and it will do so at increased odds because of it's poor showing in it's last race. That is an edge that most will not have and that puts you knowing something that others do not.
Hope that helps you guys find the winners circle at a fat price.

[ad1260]

Question

Rookie here. In order to have any success at betting should you just focus on one or two tracks? OR can you have success all over the country? I am in a huge hurry so I will elaborate later...but I am a rookie but I do know how to read a racing form lol. Thanks guys. I will be back for more soon.

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continued...

I guess what I as saying is do the majority of tracks have regular jocks/trainers? Like in the BC, Derby, Preakness, and Belmont I know those are all basically the top jockeys and top trainers that travel all over for specific mounts and meets...I have wanted to get into handicapping horses in a fairly serious way, mainly because I love the exhilaration and excitement in horse racing, theres nothing like it. Also, its not like handicapping the NFL because there are only 32 teams but in racing there are thousands of thoroughbreds. SO I guess my point is, horse racing appears to be overwhelming when it comes to trying to figure out where to start, thats why I ask about just focusing on one track or multiple ones. Like I said, I know how to read a racing form and such but thats about the extent of it when it comes to my knowledge...I understand the concept of frontrunners, stalkers, closers and sort of thing as well. So ultimately, where is the best place to start for someone who is looking to start handicapping and knowledgeably betting the races? Thanks fellas.

[str]

I guess what I as saying is do the majority of tracks have regular jocks/trainers? Like in the BC, Derby, Preakness, and Belmont I know those are all basically the top jockeys and top trainers that travel all over for specific mounts and meets...I have wanted to get into handicapping horses in a fairly serious way, mainly because I love the exhilaration and excitement in horse racing, theres nothing like it. Also, its not like handicapping the NFL because there are only 32 teams but in racing there are thousands of thoroughbreds. SO I guess my point is, horse racing appears to be overwhelming when it comes to trying to figure out where to start, thats why I ask about just focusing on one track or multiple ones. Like I said, I know how to read a racing form and such but thats about the extent of it when it comes to my knowledge...I understand the concept of frontrunners, stalkers, closers and sort of thing as well. So ultimately, where is the best place to start for someone who is looking to start handicapping and knowledgeably betting the races? Thanks fellas.

Yes, the majority of tracks have trainers and jocks that work there full time. If tracks are within a few hours of one another, a trainer might ship to a track.
If you have spent any time reading through this thread, you know that I am real big on seeing the races you play and or having access to replays , when and if needed. Some tracks , if you go to there web page will have a link to replays from previous days. So if you are going to start with looking for a track or tracks to play and follow, I would suggest starting with tracks that have decent sized fields and tracks that give you the ability to go back and watch races from maybe a week ago or sooner at least.
Too me, it is not so much that you should start with only one track or two. That is not the point. The point is, that for years after simulcasting came in to play, players would try and handicap as they go and try and bet 3 or 4 different tracks with the book of tracks they sell at the track you attend. That book might have 8 - 10 tracks in it. Not only is it a complete waste of time and money to try to handicap a race in 5 minutes but the limited amount of info in those books or programs is a disgrace. You need a real set of the racing form or brisnet or whatever but not that crap that only shows the last few races. A total waste of money.
So find a track or several that fits the criteria and start learning. I would suggest not betting much at all early on. Small amounts. Use each race as a learning tool . Watch replays. Understand pace and the difference between a good trip and a bad one.
In this thread I have some posts that are dedicated to this . If you take the time to read through them, I think it will be helpful. If you have any questions as you go, feel free to ask away. I will try and help any way I can.
Your question on which track to start has many answers to it depending on what you are looking for. Some will say Aqueduct because it is N.Y. racing. In the winter however, it is smaller fields and weaker horses. Some might say Gulfstream. Bigger fields and better horses.
Where do you watch races currently? Maybe we start there. Let me know where you would like to start and I will try and show you some things to look for if I am familiar with the track.
Feel free to keep me posted.

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Thanks a bunch str. Actually I spent over an hour and a half 2 days ago reading through this ENTIRE thread (it is incredibly thorough). Well I just moved to North Carolina from Austin, Texas...so I USED to go up to San Antonio and go to Retama Park every once in a while. But now I am living here in North Carolina and there is absolutely no racing or gambling of any kind here. But yes, I have heard a lot about Aqueduct, Gulfstream, Churchill, Belmont, Saratoga, Santa Anita and so forth (I know there are many more but these are the ones I am most familiar with (but my familiarity so to speak is very limited). When I say I am a rookie I mean I haven't watched replays nor do I know where to watch them at...I guess I was that guy that would go to the track, buy a program, and ATTEMPT to cap a race in 10 minutes without ever seeing any of the field run before at all. I would just try and piece together what I could and almost be guessing at picking a winner...I definitely don't plan on using much money at all when starting out. I want to hone my skills a bit before I start making semi decent sized bets. So, what do you think? Given my location and such what would recommend in terms of where for me to start? I am eager to learn and willing to listen...I just want to get totally comfortable with what I am doing. Thanks again my friend.

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Oh and another thing I forgot to mention...just the fact that horse racing is year a round is AWESOME to me...football is my main sport in terms of betting but the season is so short

[str]

Thanks a bunch str. Actually I spent over an hour and a half 2 days ago reading through this ENTIRE thread (it is incredibly thorough). Well I just moved to North Carolina from Austin, Texas...so I USED to go up to San Antonio and go to Retama Park every once in a while. But now I am living here in North Carolina and there is absolutely no racing or gambling of any kind here. But yes, I have heard a lot about Aqueduct, Gulfstream, Churchill, Belmont, Saratoga, Santa Anita and so forth (I know there are many more but these are the ones I am most familiar with (but my familiarity so to speak is very limited). When I say I am a rookie I mean I haven't watched replays nor do I know where to watch them at...I guess I was that guy that would go to the track, buy a program, and ATTEMPT to cap a race in 10 minutes without ever seeing any of the field run before at all. I would just try and piece together what I could and almost be guessing at picking a winner...I definitely don't plan on using much money at all when starting out. I want to hone my skills a bit before I start making semi decent sized bets. So, what do you think? Given my location and such what would recommend in terms of where for me to start? I am eager to learn and willing to listen...I just want to get totally comfortable with what I am doing. Thanks again my friend.

O.K. Let's start with Charlestown. Go to there website and you can view live racing as well as replays. 5/8s mile track so it will be different. By using C.T. I can view replays with you and explain whatever you need help with. They race nights so it is now the 2nd race.
Let's also do Laurel. Small unbetable fields often times but I know the place blindfolded . Not sure if you can stream live there so let me know.

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5MTP 14 horse field with 5 scratches. watching live.

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race 3 that is