Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

who knows.. maybe we have the next john henry on our hands lol ..was going to say cigar also but he wasn't a gelding I believe

You are right. Cigar was not a gelding but he was unable to get any mares in foal. Infertile. Damn shame.

Post 1493 in here has a quick John Henry story if you never saw it.

[mrginandtonic]

Good day Sir STR, I have a question on how trainer/owner decides/selects a jockey. And vice versa. The DRF Race of the Day, there is a horse that will be riden by Gary Stevens. Looking at the form, it seems that horse is way overmatched yet they requested Stevens' service and he agreed. Do they know something? Or am I over looking at it?

[str]

Good day Sir STR, I have a question on how trainer/owner decides/selects a jockey. And vice versa. The DRF Race of the Day, there is a horse that will be riden by Gary Stevens. Looking at the form, it seems that horse is way overmatched yet they requested Stevens' service and he agreed. Do they know something? Or am I over looking at it?

Hi Mr. G and T

Typically I would say, yes, they might know something and it requires a hard look or a throw in at long odds, but in this case, Gary Stevens is just coming back from hip replacement surgery in December. I have not followed how often he has been riding in the last couple of weeks but would assume it's a slow return. So maybe the mount is a two way street. The horse needs a race, the rider needs a race, and there will be a better time and place for both horse and jockey. Or , they know something.

Does Stevens ride for that trainer often? And with success? And has he rode that horse before?

They could be very good friends or just business acquaintances.

Figure those questions out and it should lead to the answer.

Follow up if you need to. I am around today.

Hope that helps.

[mrginandtonic]

From what I see, this is first time for trainer/jockey for recent years. The trainer is hall of fame Jack Van Berg. Don't know about the owner. From a Beyer figures, he is just not fast enough, but the horse seems to be making the right directions and his style seems to fit this race. Appalachian Gem ML 30-1, such juicy odds that I kinda want to take a shot at. Tks in advance.

[str]

From what I see, this is first time for trainer/jockey for recent years. The trainer is hall of fame Jack Van Berg. Don't know about the owner. From a Beyer figures, he is just not fast enough, but the horse seems to be making the right directions and his style seems to fit this race. Appalachian Gem ML 30-1, such juicy odds that I kinda want to take a shot at. Tks in advance.

I would not hesitate to throw a couple of bucks on Van Berg and Stevens at 30-1.

Those two have forgotten more about winning than most know.

[mrginandtonic]

I would not hesitate to throw a couple of bucks on Van Berg and Stevens at 30-1.

Those two have forgotten more about winning than most know.

Tks, think I will do that.

[JBEX]

From what I see, this is first time for trainer/jockey for recent years. The trainer is hall of fame Jack Van Berg. Don't know about the owner. From a Beyer figures, he is just not fast enough, but the horse seems to be making the right directions and his style seems to fit this race. Appalachian Gem ML 30-1, such juicy odds that I kinda want to take a shot at. Tks in advance.

imo mr g and t he is just a local campaigner who's shown some talent so they're gonna give it a shot because they're on the grounds..my thought would be what str said that gary just picking up a ride to get back in the groove..they have 5 msw and allowance races combined with purses around 80k and he's only got a mount in one of those and it's 15-1 ml

[mrginandtonic]

imo mr g and t he is just a local campaigner who's shown some talent so they're gonna give it a shot because they're on the grounds..my thought would be what str said that gary just picking up a ride to get back in the groove..they have 5 msw and allowance races combined with purses around 80k and he's only got a mount in one of those and it's 15-1 ml

Yeah, I agree with you and STR. I figure it wouldn't hurt a few $ on a pair of hall of famers. Would love to see JVB to get another shot at the derby.

[JBEX]

Yeah, I agree with you and STR. I figure it wouldn't hurt a few $ on a pair of hall of famers. Would love to see JVB to get another shot at the derby.

been 30 years..I do find it a little interesting that gary doesn't have much else going on there today..to me that's a positive for the idea he thinks this horse might be something..long way to go to just to pick up a mount with
no shot

[mrginandtonic]

JVD and Stevens just teamed up to win Race 6 at Oaklawn, paid $37.60. Now I guess the odds of pulling another long shot would be very slim.....

[str]

JVD and Stevens just teamed up to win Race 6 at Oaklawn, paid $37.60. Now I guess the odds of pulling another long shot would be very slim.....

The way I feel it...

Just the opposite.

Good vibes.

Everybody's loose.

Confidence all over the place.

I did not know he picked up another mount for Van Berg.

He never would have taken the mount if it was not live.

Maybe not on paper, but in Van Bergs eyes.

Sorry I couldn't have maybe pointed you towards that one because I sure would have said the same thing.

Worth a couple of bucks.

Promise I am not red boarding.

Not my style.

But this stuff happens all the time. Not collusion or anything close to that.

Things just click sometimes.

Guess it's hard to believe, but I promise you it's true.

Damn, I wish I could have helped you more.

[JBEX]

when I saw 15-1 ml on the other I didn't bother looking at him..did afterwards and you could definitely make a case for him at a price..acknowledge this is after the fact but I wouldn't lie or stretch the truth if I felt it wasn't so..the purse in the rebel is 900k so maybe jvb figures he has a shot to pick up a minor share..3rd.. 90k ..4th. .55k. .not too shabby and gary would earn another 5-10k

[mrginandtonic]

The way I feel it...

Just the opposite.

Good vibes.

Everybody's loose.

Confidence all over the place.

I did not know he picked up another mount for Van Berg.

He never would have taken the mount if it was not live.

Maybe not on paper, but in Van Bergs eyes.

Sorry I couldn't have maybe pointed you towards that one because I sure would have said the same thing.

Worth a couple of bucks.

Promise I am not red boarding.

Not my style.

But this stuff happens all the time. Not collusion or anything close to that.

Things just click sometimes.

Guess it's hard to believe, but I promise you it's true.

Damn, I wish I could have helped you more.

Tks. Hopefully we can see something good out the Gem.

[mrginandtonic]

when I saw 15-1 ml on the other I didn't bother looking at him..did afterwards and you could definitely make a case for him at a price..acknowledge this is after the fact but I wouldn't lie or stretch the truth if I felt it wasn't so..the purse in the rebel is 900k so maybe jvb figures he has a shot to pick up a minor share..3rd.. 90k ..4th. .55k. .not too shabby and gary would earn another 5-10k

3rd is not bad, who knows right? If I remember correctly, Giacomo wasn't much on paper either.

[JBEX]

3rd is not bad, who knows right? If I remember correctly, Giacomo wasn't much on paper either.

It's funny you bring giacomo up because my all time sad tale is with that horse. .it's a quickie and of course you believe me or you don't..I had 5 horses in derby futures
giacomo,closing argument and two others who wound up running in the race..one didn't make it..looked at the ragozin sheets cause my friend used to get them regularly. .long story short on the sheets those two had no or little chance..not gonna bother with a 4 horse $1 exacta box ..cost me $4900 + ..never forget that one

[mrginandtonic]

It's funny you bring giacomo up because my all time sad tale is with that horse. .it's a quickie and of course you believe me or you don't..I had 5 horses in derby futures
giacomo,closing argument and two others who wound up running in the race..one didn't make it..looked at the ragozin sheets cause my friend used to get them regularly. .long story short on the sheets those two had no or little chance..not gonna bother with a 4 horse $1 exacta box ..cost me $4900 + ..never forget that one

Wow, that hurts!! So my memory is correct? Giacomo wasn't much in paper, but he was riden by Mike Smith, right??

[JBEX]

Wow, that hurts!! So my memory is correct? Giacomo wasn't much in paper, but he was riden by Mike Smith, right??

yup..that was a weak crop and his beyer was within 2 or 3 points of the best in that race ..ragozins were a bigger gap

[JBEX]

You are right. Cigar was not a gelding but he was unable to get any mares in foal. Infertile. Damn shame.

Post 1493 in here has a quick John Henry story if you never saw it.

I looked str ..pretty cool and great piece of memorabilia..some of the names we've talked about would make quite a fantasy horse race..those being easy goer,sunday silence,cigar,john henry and toss in dr fager for good measure..what a battle that'd be with them all at their peak

[JBEX]

notice comment at 17 seconds by jack whittaker..
#2 relaxing is dam of easy goer taking on the boys..
post race interview with shoemaker..
love hearing marshall cassidy call a race

[str]

notice comment at 17 seconds by jack whittaker..
#2 relaxing is dam of easy goer taking on the boys..
post race interview with shoemaker..
love hearing marshall cassidy call a race

Pretty sure that was Jimmy the Greek sizing up the field before the race. LOLOL. What a blow hard.

He said John Henry is a wasted trip from California.
Peat Moss is out of it.
And Relaxing is sore. Lol.

They ran 1,2,3.

I doubt Jack Whittaker would ever be that crass.

Do you see Shoemaker pull John Henry over towards the inside when he is loafing to make it tighter on Peat Moss and to make sure John Henry sees him coming? And he switches sticks to help wake him up?
Kind of what we were talking about last month with another race we were breaking down.

[JBEX]

Pretty sure that was Jimmy the Greek sizing up the field before the race. LOLOL. What a blow hard.

He said John Henry is a wasted trip from California.
Peat Moss is out of it.
And Relaxing is sore. Lol.

They ran 1,2,3.

I doubt Jack Whittaker would ever be that crass.

Do you see Shoemaker pull John Henry over towards the inside when he is loafing to make it tighter on Peat Moss and to make sure John Henry sees him coming? And he switches sticks to help wake him up?
Kind of what we were talking about last month with another race we were breaking down.

you're right it's jimmy the greek and too funny he eliminated 2nd and 3rd finishers as you said..blowhard is right

yes he did move him inside and man another couple of steps he's caught..shoemaker's comments were great after the race..how he moved too soon and jh thought the race was his and wasn't responding to the whip and he switched to the other side..he said you can see his ears are back which if I remember you said is letting up ? when shoe said "leveling off" did he mean finding the final gear to finish the race ..would think if I didn't know the context
that it would mean the exact opposite. .I think if I remember correctly they shortened that race to 10f ..gosh now I'm thinking they still run that race jockey club gold cup ?..wouldn't bet my life on it without looking it up

[str]

you're right it's jimmy the greek and too funny he eliminated 2nd and 3rd finishers as you said..blowhard is right

yes he did move him inside and man another couple of steps he's caught..shoemaker's comments were great after the race..how he moved too soon and jh thought the race was his and wasn't responding to the whip and he switched to the other side..he said you can see his ears are back which if I remember you said is letting up ? when shoe said "leveling off" did he mean finding the final gear to finish the race ..would think if I didn't know the context
that it would mean the exact opposite. .I think if I remember correctly they shortened that race to 10f ..gosh now I'm thinking they still run that race jockey club gold cup ?..wouldn't bet my life on it without looking it up

When the ears go up, the horse is losing focus or starting to relax and loaf. When the ears go back, they are in the game and have total focus to win.
Horses on the lead early though, that's not a bad thing in that they are relaxed and have the lead they want and are waiting for a challenge.

It's when they make the lead like JH did, and the ears go up. That means they are starting to let up. Once JH saw Peat Moss, the ears went back pinned and he was not going to get by him without a helluva fight.

Leveling off: This means he is kicking on and running perfectly. It is subtle to see but it is there. Watch JH as he runs by the leader at the 1/8th pole. He has leveled off and is running with a lower center of gravity and really accelerating. Once the ears go up, he starts running a little more up and down. Watch his head height. Then watch that head height lessen and JH levels off again about 4 jumps before the wire.
It is a little hard to see but I am sure you have seen closers 1/2 way around the turn, level off, or run lower to the ground as they start to really kick. That's what he is talking about. JH leveled off again near the wire and re kicked. That's why I doubt Peat moss, even with momentum would have gotten by JH. The last 2 strides he made up no ground.

Before the Breeders Cup the Jockey Gold Cup was a HUGE race. It often times decided the older champion. When I first came around it was 2 miles. Then 1 1/2 miles somewhere in the 70's. Now I'm pretty sure it's a 1 1/4. The Breeders Cup stole it's thunder though.

[JBEX]

When the ears go up, the horse is losing focus or starting to relax and loaf. When the ears go back, they are in the game and have total focus to win.
Horses on the lead early though, that's not a bad thing in that they are relaxed and have the lead they want and are waiting for a challenge.

It's when they make the lead like JH did, and the ears go up. That means they are starting to let up. Once JH saw Peat Moss, the ears went back pinned and he was not going to get by him without a helluva fight.

Leveling off: This means he is kicking on and running perfectly. It is subtle to see but it is there. Watch JH as he runs by the leader at the 1/8th pole. He has leveled off and is running with a lower center of gravity and really accelerating. Once the ears go up, he starts running a little more up and down. Watch his head height. Then watch that head height lessen and JH levels off again about 4 jumps before the wire.
It is a little hard to see but I am sure you have seen closers 1/2 way around the turn, level off, or run lower to the ground as they start to really kick. That's what he is talking about. JH leveled off again near the wire and re kicked. That's why I doubt Peat moss, even with momentum would have gotten by JH. The last 2 strides he made up no ground.

Before the Breeders Cup the Jockey Gold Cup was a HUGE race. It often times decided the older champion. When I first came around it was 2 miles. Then 1 1/2 miles somewhere in the 70's. Now I'm pretty sure it's a 1 1/4. The Breeders Cup stole it's thunder though.

oh I see so I had it the other way around with the ears.. forward is easing up and running with head a little higher..pinned back,lower center of gravity and running well or accelerating is leveling off..funny I never heard that term used before..the shoe was 50 years old in that race..I had a derby win with him in 1986 aboard ferdinand.. last to first an amazing ride and he was 3 months shy of 55..quite impressive

[harthebar]

Hey Str, Howdy.........how is everything...???? question..been following horse going today at gulfstream..seems to be getting better
Rediscover is scheduled to run on 3/25/2017 in Race 6 at Gulfstream Park
David Jacobson trainer he is racing every 10 days just about maybe 6 starts in last 2 months......why is that.........seems like a lot of races for a t bred.....is that a good sign when a trainer comes back...that quick

[str]

Hey Str, Howdy.........how is everything...???? question..been following horse going today at gulfstream..seems to be getting better
Rediscover is scheduled to run on 3/25/2017 in Race 6 at Gulfstream Park
David Jacobson trainer he is racing every 10 days just about maybe 6 starts in last 2 months......why is that.........seems like a lot of races for a t bred.....is that a good sign when a trainer comes back...that quick

Hi HAR.

All is well here.

It seems like Jacobson trains plenty of his claimers like this.

This was a very common way to race claimers back in the day. It is actually fairly easy on the horse in that they do very little in between races. Typically just walk the shed 3 days and jog the wrong way 2-3 days or a light easy gallop or something like that.

So from the training end of things it is easy on the horse.

But the horse has to be a durable type that could have some minor problems but probably not joint problems like a knee or ankle. Those just can't get back that quick that many times and the joint still be considered a problem. So it's probably very minor aches and pains or not much at all. And they are not bleeding through lasix or there is no way they could do it. They would bleed badly without more time for the vessels to heal properly.
I assume the horse runs on lasix. Most claimers do these days. If the horse runs on lasix, it is doubtful that pace can keep up much longer due to the extreme weight and fluid loss each race that goes with running on lasix.
They need more time than a week to recover that weight and fluid . Not so much if you run them back a couple of times quickly but 6 times is about the point where the horse will make you take a race or 2 off so they can get back where you want them.

I guess the answer is Yes, that is a positive sign for 2 or 3 races but after that, it can start to work against the horse. But the form will show that if indeed that is what is happening.

Hope that helps.

[harthebar]

Hi HAR.

All is well here.

It seems like Jacobson trains plenty of his claimers like this.

This was a very common way to race claimers back in the day. It is actually fairly easy on the horse in that they do very little in between races. Typically just walk the shed 3 days and jog the wrong way 2-3 days or a light easy gallop or something like that.

So from the training end of things it is easy on the horse.

But the horse has to be a durable type that could have some minor problems but probably not joint problems like a knee or ankle. Those just can't get back that quick that many times and the joint still be considered a problem. So it's probably very minor aches and pains or not much at all. And they are not bleeding through lasix or there is no way they could do it. They would bleed badly without more time for the vessels to heal properly.
I assume the horse runs on lasix. Most claimers do these days. If the horse runs on lasix, it is doubtful that pace can keep up much longer due to the extreme weight and fluid loss each race that goes with running on lasix.
They need more time than a week to recover that weight and fluid . Not so much if you run them back a couple of times quickly but 6 times is about the point where the horse will make you take a race or 2 off so they can get back where you want them.

I guess the answer is Yes, that is a positive sign for 2 or 3 races but after that, it can start to work against the horse. But the form will show that if indeed that is what is happening.

Hope that helps.

yes it did ...as always .........he was actually x out yesterday..........thanks maybe he should train harness horses they go every week.....lol

[Thunderground]

Arrogate just turned horse racing upside down. People are honestly comparing him to Secretariat. And that just on the heels of a Triple Crown winner. Then there's Chrome, before we forget, and Shared Belief. One would almost think that we're experiencing a new Golden Era of horse racing... Are we?


(on a sidenote you probably noticed that the son of that bluetailed horse - Hansen - is going to the KY Derby; that's how long this thread has been thriving...).

[str]

Arrogate just turned horse racing upside down. People are honestly comparing him to Secretariat. And that just on the heels of a Triple Crown winner. Then there's Chrome, before we forget, and Shared Belief. One would almost think that we're experiencing a new Golden Era of horse racing... Are we?


(on a sidenote you probably noticed that the son of that bluetailed horse - Hansen - is going to the KY Derby; that's how long this thread has been thriving...).

Sorry for the delay.

We could be. A lot of really nice horses have come through lately, the latest probably being the best in Arrogate. ( Triple crown winner is an after thought Lol.) It's nice to see. I think the Secretariat stuff is a bit much though, but people love to compare era's so I get that.

I did not know that a son of Hansen is going to the derby.

Does he switch leads?

Is he one dimensional?

Does he quit when you pin him inside ?

[Thunderground]

Great times. Hardly anybody even mentions American Pharoah anymore. That must mean something lol.
When I watch Arrogate in full stride I have to look twice just to make sure it is indeed a horse I'm watching. Even along the backstretch in Dubai (the head shot), the other horses are seriously into their battle and he's kind of hopping along, coming off the ground with a lot more bounce (if that makes sense). A special breed. Hope he sticks around.

I haven't looked at the Hansen son yet (too busy with international move, or I would have). Just thought it funny that Hansen is going to have a son in the Derby after all that came up in the past. I hope the owner took a few clues from you...

[str]

If you have any interest in today's Wood memorial, I suggest taking a long look at the 2.

I have seen several analysts say that this horse had no apparent excuse last time.

That would be incorrect.

He is set to run to his ability today.

Here's hoping that that is good enough to get the job done.

[JBEX]

If you have any interest in today's Wood memorial, I suggest taking a long look at the 2.

I have seen several analysts say that this horse had no apparent excuse last time.

That would be incorrect.

He is set to run to his ability today.

Here's hoping that that is good enough to get the job done.

says 3-4 paths turns in brisnet pp's and if I remember he was the lone chaser 6-7 lengths off the pace which is not the best place to be.. pace was average according to their
pace figs..don't know if I've hit on anything here but like the fact he won the remsen here at the same distance as
a 2yo

[str]

says 3-4 paths turns in brisnet pp's and if I remember he was the lone chaser 6-7 lengths off the pace which is not the best place to be.. pace was average according to their
pace figs..don't know if I've hit on anything here but like the fact he won the remsen here at the same distance as
a 2yo

It did not have anything to do with the trip, but it was a solid reason to not run well.

That said, today was a miserable effort.

I am really sorry about that folks.

I hope the horse is ok.

When I see that type of terrible race where the horse is done at the 1/2 mile pole, I worry he could have hurt himself.

Hopefully not but that was a really poor effort.

Just terrible. He just gave up. I always hated that.

[JBEX]

It did not have anything to do with the trip, but it was a solid reason to not run well.

That said, today was a miserable effort.

I am really sorry about that folks.

I hope the horse is ok.

When I see that type of terrible race where the horse is done at the 1/2 mile pole, I worry he could have hurt himself.

Hopefully not but that was a really poor effort.

Just terrible. He just gave up. I always hated that.

yeah hope he's ok str.. would have been nice to see your buddy have a shot at the derby

[JBEX]

hey str

wanted to throw a race scenario at you and see what you think ..a mile race with a lone speed horse ..pace is 2-3 lengths slow.. legit favorite stalks about 2 lengths off clear of the rest or at least running outside of 3rd place horse.. pulls alongside leader at 1/4 pole and takes 6-8 seconds to pass because leader was resilient due to the slow fractions..now another from further back is closing
and he has to find more to hold him off in the last 100 yards and does by a length ..assume the track is playing fair.. is this a better than it looks win under these circumstances?

[JBEX]

hey str

wanted to throw a race scenario at you and see what you think ..a mile race with a lone speed horse ..pace is 2-3 lengths slow.. legit favorite stalks about 2 lengths off clear of the rest or at least running outside of 3rd place horse.. pulls alongside leader at 1/4 pole and takes 6-8 seconds to pass because leader was resilient due to the slow fractions..now another from further back is closing
and he has to find more to hold him off in the last 100 yards and does by a length ..assume the track is playing fair.. is this a better than it looks win under these circumstances?

also you think this is too soon to make your move under these conditions ..maybe more like 3/16 pole ?