Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

hey str


army mule at kee


R5 #9 haul (8-1)

2yo allowance race which as you know is like a stakes race there..broke maiden in his debut @ bel and caught a monster in the saratoga special next out..had some trouble at the start




.

Once again, ran well, tried to the wire. Finished 3rd.

They always seem to show up.

Thanks JBEX.

[JBEX]

Once again, ran well, tried to the wire. Finished 3rd.

They always seem to show up.

Thanks JBEX.

no problem str..the only other 6f race was a G2 for fillies and mares and it was run 2 ticks faster so have to think that was a solid time for 2yo males .. seems like the type who would benefit from a freshening and brought back as a young 3yo

[str]

no problem str..the only other 6f race was a G2 for fillies and mares and it was run 2 ticks faster so have to think that was a solid time for 2yo males .. seems like the type who would benefit from a freshening and brought back as a young 3yo

Two ticks slower than a Grade 2 Fillies and mare sprint is VERY solid. Excellent time for that race.

I agree with maybe letting up and freshening some. I don't know the horse at all and if that is at all necessary but the condition book can have a big hand in dictating giving a horse a little time to mature and reset. It depends on the horse of course, but all things being equal, if all you might miss is one tough spot for the next 90 days, why not give him 60 days and have him fresh for the spring.
That is an excellent take JBEX if the condition books help warrant it which this time of year, they certainly can.

[JBEX]

Two ticks slower than a Grade 2 Fillies and mare sprint is VERY solid. Excellent time for that race.

I agree with maybe letting up and freshening some. I don't know the horse at all and if that is at all necessary but the condition book can have a big hand in dictating giving a horse a little time to mature and reset. It depends on the horse of course, but all things being equal, if all you might miss is one tough spot for the next 90 days, why not give him 60 days and have him fresh for the spring.
That is an excellent take JBEX if the condition books help warrant it which this time of year, they certainly can.

thanks str

can see that .. he's doing well and an allowance race came up in ny or fla before year end they might go for it..my guess is they'll be a spot like that at gulfstream or possibly tampa if they're running nov and/or dec at the latter..with the connections and potential of the horse I doubt they'd be concerned with the smaller purse of tampa if a good spot comes up ..sure you remember kingsbarns 2nd race and victory an allowance at tampa and both are trained by todd..whatever they decide to do think he'll develop into a nice horse

[str]

thanks str

can see that .. he's doing well and an allowance race came up in ny or fla before year end they might go for it..my guess is they'll be a spot like that at gulfstream or possibly tampa if they're running nov and/or dec at the latter..with the connections and potential of the horse I doubt they'd be concerned with the smaller purse of tampa if a good spot comes up ..sure you remember kingsbarns 2nd race and victory an allowance at tampa and both are trained by todd..whatever they decide to do think he'll develop into a nice horse

Yeah JBEX. The purses are secondary . It's the progression and building on positives that Todd will look for if that can occur. Same as with Kingsbarns.
The good news is there will be plenty of spots as we enter the new year. The bad news is, everybody else is thinking the same way.
Either way, a nice horse no doubt. Can he ascend is the million dollar question.

[str]

I just saw that Echo Zulu broke one of her left front sesamoids this morning while working out.

While that can certainly be fatal, it sounds like it was not a compound fracture as the rider no doubt did a great job of getting her pulled up quickly to avoid further damage.

She will have surgery tomorrow morning to stabilize it. Those sesamoids are what makes the entire ankle work and connect up and down. They are what allows the horse to have the 45 degree angle from their foot up to their ankle. There is no stability without them being stable and functioning. There are two in each ankle are in the back of the ankles.

One crucial moment of all this will be when she is brought out of anesthesia after surgery and stands up for the first time.

Her racing career is certainly over but let's hope she comes out of surgery in good shape. What a nice broodmare she will most likely be.

Always tough news to hear with any horse much less her.

[batt33]

Yes... Hoping for the best!

[str]

Echo Zulu Update.

She made it out of surgery and stood up. Two big steps. Now comes the waiting.

For the next 6+/- weeks, she will be susceptible to foundering, which is deadly if not stopped. And that can start to occur at literally any moment during that span.

It turned out she broke both sesamoids in one ankle. There are two in each ankle. They are like bone triangles with the point up to help get a visual. Both were broken horizontally across the base, probably about a n 1/8th to a 1/4 inch high across. That is somewhat typical . But foundering, which is a bodily reaction to the trauma, be it from fever, catastrophic injury or a host of other things, cannot be cured and there is very little that can be done to stop it. High fever could set it off. Rejection of something within the body and honestly, too many other ways to try and explain.
And sometimes there is no explanation.

What happens is the coffin bone which is below those sesamoids will start to rotate and work downward to the hoof and on to the sole of the hoof. If that happens and cannot be stopped, they would be forced to put her down do to the excruciating pain and the zero chance of being able to stand in the future without high pain.

Sorry for the descriptive news but that is the reality of this situation. So no news will be really good news for a month or two. If she can get that far, and she has a decent chance to do so, she should start being out of danger.

She can make a full recovery as far as a broodmare is concerned. She can walk without a limp and have a happy career as a broodmare. But she is not there yet.

There are so many things that can go wrong and only one thing that seemingly can go right. But she does have a better than 50-50 chance. Probably more like 75-25% chance or even a little better IMO.
We wish her the best.

[Easy-Rider 66]

THX for the update STR

[JBEX]

Echo Zulu Update.

She made it out of surgery and stood up. Two big steps. Now comes the waiting.

For the next 6+/- weeks, she will be susceptible to foundering, which is deadly if not stopped. And that can start to occur at literally any moment during that span.

It turned out she broke both sesamoids in one ankle. There are two in each ankle. They are like bone triangles with the point up to help get a visual. Both were broken horizontally across the base, probably about a n 1/8th to a 1/4 inch high across. That is somewhat typical . But foundering, which is a bodily reaction to the trauma, be it from fever, catastrophic injury or a host of other things, cannot be cured and there is very little that can be done to stop it. High fever could set it off. Rejection of something within the body and honestly, too many other ways to try and explain.
And sometimes there is no explanation.

What happens is the coffin bone which is below those sesamoids will start to rotate and work downward to the hoof and on to the sole of the hoof. If that happens and cannot be stopped, they would be forced to put her down do to the excruciating pain and the zero chance of being able to stand in the future without high pain.

Sorry for the descriptive news but that is the reality of this situation. So no news will be really good news for a month or two. If she can get that far, and she has a decent chance to do so, she should start being out of danger.

She can make a full recovery as far as a broodmare is concerned. She can walk without a limp and have a happy career as a broodmare. But she is not there yet.

There are so many things that can go wrong and only one thing that seemingly can go right. But she does have a better than 50-50 chance. Probably more like 75-25% chance or even a little better IMO.
We wish her the best.

glad to hear str and hopefully she pulls through..great info on the physiology and type of injury also


if she does you can't have better specs for a broodmare prospect ..wow !

[JBEX]

an army mule just won the 1st @ kee by about 6 lengths..me picking another certainly didn't hurt his chances lol..he also started the week off with a convincing winner in the 1st race there on weds

[str]

glad to hear str and hopefully she pulls through..great info on the physiology and type of injury also


if she does you can't have better specs for a broodmare prospect ..wow !

Those types of injuries are so tough to deal with. And the foundering stuff is absolutely brutal. And if it does start, they can fight it and beat it but it's more like, treat it every way possible and pray. Hoping on hope that that doesn't even start to occur.

And her specs for a broodmare prospect? I agree. WOW !

[str]

an army mule just won the 1st @ kee by about 6 lengths..me picking another certainly didn't hurt his chances lol..he also started the week off with a convincing winner in the 1st race there on weds

The gift that keeps on giving. Army Mule.

[JBEX]

The gift that keeps on giving. Army Mule.

the gift has become more expensive..$25k fee (doubled) for 2024

[JBEX]

the gift has become more expensive..$25k fee (doubled) for 2024

do you think with his progress
(besides the type of mares he will attract @ that price) they will try to solicit or bring in themselves some mares that would normally go to around $50k stalllions .. hopefully keep the momentum moving forward ?

interesting that next years 2yo's will be from the 2022 fee of $7500..guess that will have to be given a lot of consideration when evaluating his performance

[Easy-Rider 66]

Canterbury Park will become the first track in the modern history of North American racing to time Thoroughbred races from the break of the gate, eliminating “run-up” distances. The track announced the change in a press release Monday.
“Accuracy matters. This is a watershed moment for American racing,” said Thoroughbred Idea Foundation executive director Patrick Cummings. “For more than a century, we have endured inaccuracy in racing's most fundamental data points – time and distance. The inconsistencies created by running and timing races with run-up are too numerous to count, but this Is a much-needed first step towards embracing accuracy – for horseplayers, horse owners and any stakeholder in the sport.”
“Canterbury Park's management team is to be commended for being the first to take the lead on this and I am quite confident they will not be the last!”


Any thoughts on this development STR. THX in advance.

[str]

the gift has become more expensive..$25k fee (doubled) for 2024

do you think with his progress
(besides the type of mares he will attract @ that price) they will try to solicit or bring in themselves some mares that would normally go to around $50k stalllions .. hopefully keep the momentum moving forward ?

interesting that next years 2yo's will be from the 2022 fee of $7500..guess that will have to be given a lot of consideration when evaluating his performance

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I think many people will think that he is still a bargain at 25k.

I am finding it difficult to properly explain how incredible it is for a 7,500 dollar sire of yearlings, like those that sold at Keenland last month, bring the money that they do. Believe me when I tell you, it is not quite unheard of, but pretty close.

So the incremental increases don't faze owners of mares. The other thing is, he is probably in such high demand that they have a long list of mares offered to them. AM's connections can pick and choose from that in all probability. I'd be surprised if that is not correct but I obviously don't know for sure.
I would have to think that the lineup of mares has been better each year as they have hit the ground. 2024's should be the best yet.

Will be fun to watch.

[str]

Canterbury Park will become the first track in the modern history of North American racing to time Thoroughbred races from the break of the gate, eliminating “run-up” distances. The track announced the change in a press release Monday.
“Accuracy matters. This is a watershed moment for American racing,” said Thoroughbred Idea Foundation executive director Patrick Cummings. “For more than a century, we have endured inaccuracy in racing's most fundamental data points – time and distance. The inconsistencies created by running and timing races with run-up are too numerous to count, but this Is a much-needed first step towards embracing accuracy – for horseplayers, horse owners and any stakeholder in the sport.”
“Canterbury Park's management team is to be commended for being the first to take the lead on this and I am quite confident they will not be the last!”


Any thoughts on this development STR. THX in advance.

I'll answer this tomorrow EZ. Great question.

[str]

Originally Posted by Easy-Rider 66
Canterbury Park will become the first track in the modern history of North American racing to time Thoroughbred races from the break of the gate, eliminating “run-up” distances. The track announced the change in a press release Monday.
“Accuracy matters. This is a watershed moment for American racing,” said Thoroughbred Idea Foundation executive director Patrick Cummings. “For more than a century, we have endured inaccuracy in racing's most fundamental data points – time and distance. The inconsistencies created by running and timing races with run-up are too numerous to count, but this Is a much-needed first step towards embracing accuracy – for horseplayers, horse owners and any stakeholder in the sport.”
“Canterbury Park's management team is to be commended for being the first to take the lead on this and I am quite confident they will not be the last!”


Any thoughts on this development STR. THX in advance.





It is a GREAT first step EZ. The run up nonsense has gotten completely out of hand, thank you Gulfstream ownership and management as well as others.
The catalyst that makes EVERYTHING go for horse racing is the fans. Without them, it all falls apart. Same with the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc., etc.
No handle, no viewership, no fans, no product. Pretty simple.

So for Canterbury Downs to do this is great. Now here comes the downside. Someone will need to explain to me how a handicapper that is working on a race will be able to figure out the difference between speed figures, which sooo many people rely on these days, when a horse from Canterbury and a horse from let's say Gulfstream Park run against one another. The numbers will be a train wreck to try and decipher I would have to think. Guess I would have to ask a guy like Craig Milkowski about that for more clarity.

IMO, what all this comes down to is the obvious which has been stated here many times. The racetracks need one governing voice. All the owners need a commissioner. You do not have to look past the NFL to see that all those owners would never, ever, agree if there was not a leader. And of course, the only way those owners agreed to that was because of the success that took place financially over the years. If it had failed or floundered, they would have changed it. But since every team is worth Billions with a B, they are ok with it.

From what I have witnessed over the years both at the track as well as away from it, is that the ownership , track by track is all in it for themselves. And that comes as no surprise, I mean, they are in business, which often times is code for make money at anybody else's expense.

So am I just bitter towards management and ownership. No. Frank Defrancis Sr. was a dear friend of mine that was 40 years older than I was. He taught me more by accident than many ever did. He owned Laurel and Freestate raceway. What I am upset about is a place like Canterbury Downs takes this step and I have to believe they floated the idea to other tracks as well, and they are the lone ranger doing what is the fair and correct thing for fans as well as racing in general, especially long term.

What I hope comes from this is that fans, bettors, call them what you will, will support Canterbury Downs by focusing on that track and playing there. And maybe not play as much at other venues while doing so. If enough did, other tracks will see it and follow suit. Those other tracks will be watching closely. Sometimes you have to give something in order to get something. Not forever, but for a while.

Support Canterbury Downs when this is implemented and use that handle there instead of elsewhere and if enough people do it, you will get swamped with change from the other tracks. Yep, this is ALL in the players hands. The ownerships are just hoping that the fan base does not realize it.
Lastly, what truly makes me sick is how few people who swear they love the business obviously love money and the greed for more money much much more than they actually love the game. Anybody that can think, has to be able to see that doing this is better and fairer for the players. If they don't, they're not trying to see it. The old line of, we are sticking with the old way because that is how we have always done it, is an admission of guilt when you break it down. There is no excuse for every track to not do this simultaneously. That would be so smooth a transition. But no commissioner, no guidance or consensus, and what you are left with is a pile of crap. THAT, IMO, is what the current state of individual ownership without a commissioner is in horse racing. Money, money, money, one day at a time. The reality is, if they ever do get a commissioner , like the NFL, where ownership votes on matters, their profits would soar. Everything would be better. Hard for me to believe that owners and, or their advisers cannot see that.

The drug problem would become better, the timing we are talking about, the after care for retired horses as well as grooms, exercise riders and hot walkers. All backstretch people. Pensions, retirement, many things not currently in place or only sporadically in place.

Some people always respected the game first, then everything else. I'm proud to say I was one of those. The decisions I made ultimately forced me to leave the game. A game I truly loved. And while so many people will tell you how much they love it, how about showing us how much you love it. That is the great separator in this.

Thanks for the question EZ. Great question and hopefully I answered it well enough.

Lastly, support Canterbury Downs if you possibly can. It could very well be the beginning of a game changer.

All the best my friend.

[str]

One other thing to note EZ:

When this timing difference starts, the 21 4/5ths or 22 flat first quarter will be gone. The new 22 will be 23 or maybe 22 4/5ths. You will adapt quickly though, once all the horses have run over the track once or twice.

[Easy-Rider 66]

THX for the detailed response STR. Yeah I agree Racing needs a Commissioner that rules over the sport. Too many independent entities in the game. AS for Canterbury it is one of my favorite smaller tracks. I have played contests there on Horse tourneys and with pari- mutuel being legalized here in my state will for sure be playing there this summer. THX.

[JBEX]

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I think many people will think that he is still a bargain at 25k.

I am finding it difficult to properly explain how incredible it is for a 7,500 dollar sire of yearlings, like those that sold at Keenland last month, bring the money that they do. Believe me when I tell you, it is not quite unheard of, but pretty close.

So the incremental increases don't faze owners of mares. The other thing is, he is probably in such high demand that they have a long list of mares offered to them. AM's connections can pick and choose from that in all probability. I'd be surprised if that is not correct but I obviously don't know for sure.
I would have to think that the lineup of mares has been better each year as they have hit the ground. 2024's should be the best yet.

Will be fun to watch.

yes it will..with the rise in fee I'm sure the connections of the 2yo's yet to start this year and the new crop next year will be anxious to see what kind of horse they purchased or bred

[str]

THX for the detailed response STR. Yeah I agree Racing needs a Commissioner that rules over the sport. Too many independent entities in the game. AS for Canterbury it is one of my favorite smaller tracks. I have played contests there on Horse tourneys and with pari- mutuel being legalized here in my state will for sure be playing there this summer. THX.

Yep. Fans are getting smarter everyday. That is a problem for the antiquated ways that reside in horse racing.


Great to hear you play Canterbury. I hope others reading this will give it a look as well. I've never paid any attention to it but I will try to when they run next year.

Thanks EZ.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Yep. Fans are getting smarter everyday. That is a problem for the antiquated ways that reside in horse racing.


Great to hear you play Canterbury. I hope others reading this will give it a look as well. I've never paid any attention to it but I will try to when they run next year.

Thanks EZ.

[JBEX]

one of army mule's best goes in the glen cove stakes at baq today..horse is a beast


R8 #2 dance macabre (3-1) 4:22

[str]

one of army mule's best goes in the glen cove stakes at baq today..horse is a beast


R8 #2 dance macabre (3-1) 4:22

Wins the turf 3/4 mile sprint stake from off the pace and runs the last 1/8th in 11 4/5th. 7,500.00 stud fee.

Unreal.

[JBEX]

Wins the turf 3/4 mile sprint stake from off the pace and runs the last 1/8th in 11 4/5th. 7,500.00 stud fee.

Unreal.

really is


just trying to get my head around how well they did with this horse purchased for a modest $55k..

approaching 1 million earnings

only 3yo so I feel a good avg amount of additional earnings would be $750k if she stays healthy


how much as a broodmare .. don't have a feel what this could be but have to think at least $1M ?


seems to me $3M combined earnings and value not out of the question ..really struck gold with this one

[JBEX]

really is


just trying to get my head around how well they did with this horse purchased for a modest $55k..

approaching 1 million earnings

only 3yo so I feel a good avg amount of additional earnings would be $750k if she stays healthy


how much as a broodmare .. don't have a feel what this could be but have to think at least $1M ?


seems to me $3M combined earnings and value not out of the question ..really struck gold with this one

maybe a little high for the avg as it'll get much tougher when she faces older horses which is only a few months away

[str]

maybe a little high for the avg as it'll get much tougher when she faces older horses which is only a few months away

The transition from 3 to 4 years old is never a given. But better horses will typically move into the older categories with lees problems class wise than claimers. You never know for sure but she will probably be fine. And, the old run them 8-12 times in their career won't be on the table here unless soundness puts it there. I could see her running as a 5 year old if she has a nice 4 year old year and stays healthy.
Again, just fun to watch and be on the AM team , if only the routing section. Lol.

[JBEX]

The transition from 3 to 4 years old is never a given. But better horses will typically move into the older categories with lees problems class wise than claimers. You never know for sure but she will probably be fine. And, the old run them 8-12 times in their career won't be on the table here unless soundness puts it there. I could see her running as a 5 year old if she has a nice 4 year old year and stays healthy.
Again, just fun to watch and be on the AM team , if only the routing section. Lol.

yeah I'd like to see her have a nice 4yo year and run as a 5yo also ..hopefully stays healthy


thanks str

[str]

I got news this morning that Gerald Delp, son of HOF trainer Bud Delp, died last night after battling various illnesses including a double lung transplant for several years. He was probably about 67+/- years old.

I never knew Gerald well but I certainly knew him. Working for his dad Grover Buddy Delp, as a kid and afterwards, we were rivals growing up because of my affiliation with Bud Delps training rival Dick Dutrow. I guess that stuff happens all the time and I was in the middle of it but when I look back, for some reason, it just seems like such a waste.

Gerald was a good guy I suppose and we nodded hello when we walked past each other, out of respect I guess, but that was it. IDK , but it just seems as though this shouldn't affect me like it is in my head.

What I meant by waste earlier was, at least I think is, he became a heavy smoker, a drug user, and this came from who his dad was and the status achieved from Spectacular Bid. I guess that kind of stuff can put you in a position of making bad choices along the way. Especially when you are young. Pretty sure he trained for a short period, I know he was a jocks agent for a good while and think he had Ronnie Franklins book who I rode and won a few races with.
He was a racetrack guy. He is one of the main quoted people in the book about Spectacular Bid that I have talked about in here.

He had an older brother and I don't know what ever happened to him. Also had a sister much younger than him and I never knew her at all.

Looking back, it all seems sad to me. I guess we only get one shot at this and the decisions we make along the way end up telling a story. In this case, his just looks incomplete to me. Really can't put my finger on it and would never judge him for a minute but there were opportunity's many never get and it just never happened, at least I don't think it did. I hope he was happy and content these last few years. Really saddened to hear the news.

I never paid that much attention to Gerald's career but looking back, it just seems that there have been so much more and better times for him.

Rest in peace Gerald.

Sorry for the bummer post guys. For some reason, I just felt I needed to out of respect.

[Easy-Rider 66]

OK STR. THX for the update. RIP Gerald.

[str]

White Abarrio just worked 59 3/5th which included a final in 23 flat and galloped out 3/4's in 1:13 1/5th.

Jogged home with real good energy.

About all you can ask for.

[Easy-Rider 66]

White Abarrio just worked 59 3/5th which included a final in 23 flat and galloped out 3/4's in 1:13 1/5th.

Jogged home with real good energy.

About all you can ask for.

Dutrow was in from New York to observe the work, which came under jockey Emily Ellingwood. Dutrow left Santa Anita shortly after the move and was not available for comment. Assistant Chip Dutrow, Rick Dutrow's brother, said they were pleased with the drill.

“He worked great. He cooled out great. We're thrilled,” Chip Dutrow said.

[str]

Dutrow was in from New York to observe the work, which came under jockey Emily Ellingwood. Dutrow left Santa Anita shortly after the move and was not available for comment. Assistant Chip Dutrow, Rick Dutrow's brother, said they were pleased with the drill.

“He worked great. He cooled out great. We're thrilled,” Chip Dutrow said.

Oh wow. Thanks EZ.
My man Chip.
Good for him.

Man, that makes me feel like I'm right back in the barn with them back in the day.