Originally Posted by
str
Not wordy at all. Welcome to the horse forum. These guys in here are the best. They are very good handicappers, are happy to help others and just really good people to learn from. I am not a true handicapper like they are. I was a horse trainer for a long time. My take is a little different but between all of us, we make a pretty solid group.
Feel free to ask any of us anytime. If I am late in responding, let me apologize now, but no hidden meaning, I am just real busy sometimes doing my thing these days which are not horse related and teaching my son everything I can about by business.
That said, let's get to it.
Q. 1. I've read a lot about horses "Bouncing". The way I understand it is when a horse peaks speed wise in back to back races, there is a good possibility that it will post slower figures... Is this a correct explanation? Is this a real factor that should be considered when Handicapping? Just with my little bit of experience so far, I definitely see some kind of cyclical pattern with horses speed. Some are even in a curve....
A. GREAT question. Horses can and do run cyclical form cycles. Not always but often enough to note. Bounces can be 2 efforts or one huge "seemingly much more than normal" effort according to Beyers, figures or whatever.
While during my time training horses I did see this , it was about 5 or 10% of the time that others would want to call it that. I could write a thousand words on this but the bottom line you need to look at is "WHY" did that horse run so well that day when it seemingly could not do that other days. Was it a bias? Was it an off track? Was it solo speed? Was it a fast early pace and the horse was a closer that caught exhausted horses?
It could be a hundred things. Maybe it was easy for the horse to do this because of the circumstance. Or maybe the horse DID just run one super effort. But there is always a reason. Often times and usually overlooked is the simple fact that the horse was asked to run against better horses and they were better than that particular horse. As a result, they ran a poorer race. Not a bounce, just reality hitting them in the butt. Case in point. I am kicking everyone's butt in basketball and I am the man. I play Labron and he crushes me. Did I BOUNCE? Hell no. I was over matched. That's my point. Was it a bounce or was it over matched. That is not easy to learn to figure out so don't worry about that crap now. Most people see that super effort and say "bounce" is coming. Why? Because they either cant figure out why it happened or it is a built in excuse if the horse loses next time out.
All of that is silly. There is ALWAYS a reason for everything that happens in a race. I know this thread is terribly long but I encourage you to try and find time over weeks or months to read it all. Skip over the blah blah about things or people in the game that don't pertain if you want but I did cover this somewhat and learning TRIPS and understanding how horses think and their likes and dislikes will really help you start to understand what you are witnessing when you watch a race. I promise you it will be more than just some horses with numbers running around and trying to guess the order of finish.
Q. Overlay... I'm not so sure about Overlay. I think I get the concept and why it's important to look at but could really use some clarification.
A. Simply put, an overlay is a horse that is maybe 5-1 when it should be 3-1, meaning a horse that is better and higher odds than it should be in your mind. Remember about overlays and underlays, it's all in YOUR mind as to what the odds should really be. That is quite an advanced way of thinking in handicapping terms and I would recommend not worrying about those yet. I would however, look AFTER the fact, when reading the charts of the races or watching replays of races you bet on and look and see if AFTER the fact, maybe you think the favorite maybe should NOT have been a favorite or maybe someone else should. But all that takes months if not years so don't focus too much on that now. But DO try and learn about it after that fact for now . Before that fact later, like next year.
Q. When to wager strait Win, Place, Show and when to do a W/P or W/P/S on the same horse. Any rules of thumb? I've been dong mostly W/P on horses that are 3/1 or better (that's another thing...does Better odds mean 4/1 is better than 3/1 or opposite? and is higher odds vs. lower odds 4/1 is higher that 3/1? confused....)
A. There are varying opinions on this. My take is don't bet to show and bet 2 dollars a race as often as you want to just to get races under your belt. Also, early on , you need to feel you got something right so betting to place isn't terrible but I would say that instead of risking 4 dollars per race, you bet one dollar to win and one dollar to place. It allows you to cash tickets. BUT, I do think you will eventually realize as the confidence strengthens that betting to place on less than 10-1 or maybe higher is just not much of a return on investment. It's more a confidence thing. As you gain that confidence, you will be able to lose 4 out of 5 bets and do just fine with a + ROI ( return on investment) or even lose 9 out of 10 and make money. All of that can and will happen if you work at it, listen to the people in here and just make it fun knowing full well that if you stay after it, you will know more than 90% of all horse players. That's a big goal, but it is very achievable, especially in this forum and as long as the time you put in is a hobby and enjoyable.
Simply put, 3-1 means bet 1 get back 3 + the one you bet. 4-1 means bet 1, get back 4 plus the one you bet. Watch the payouts and look at the daily racing form charts( just google it, they will come up). Understanding odds is a key and one of many reasons I want you to bet only 2 dollars a race for the next few months. No exactas or triples yet. Go one step at a time. This is a time to learn NOT win and make a ton of money. Everything you put in, you will get out but it's not easy. Very few things worth while are. But you will get there, if you want to really get good at this.
Lastly, do not listen to guys like JJ who knock the game and say everyone loses or it's fixed or it's for insiders. Bull crap! I am YOUR insider. And everyone else's on this board as are those people in here that are pretty darn good . All that is is an excuse to allow him to justify his shortcomings. Gamblers like that need to stick to favorite or underdog. Not us.