Craig Biggio 2,983 hits and counting...future HOF...YES

MaxDemo · 06-13-07, 11:09 AM

Remember this guy started as a Catcher and moved to 2nd base.

Razz · 06-13-07, 11:12 AM

Very borderline. I have always liked him as a player, and I think he will get in eventually, but my vote would be negative. From memory and looking over his career stats, there was never a season when Biggio was one of the ten best players in baseball. The HOF is for greatness, and while Biggio was very good for a very long time, I don't think he really belongs.

MaxDemo · 06-13-07, 11:13 AM

Craig Biggio's career began in 1988 and he's played in every season since then, and leaderboard for career hits from 1988 to 2007 now looks like this:

Craig Biggio - 2,983
Rafael Palmeiro - 2,941
Roberto Alomar - 2,724
Barry Bonds - 2,614
Steve Finley - 2,532

Baseball often seems to run on milestones, and 3000 hits is an undeniably important one, but one of the problems with milestones is that baseball changes over the years. Some people like to segment the years into statistical eras, and some of the more hardcore stats people figure you can compare different seasons across the decades and centuries by simply normalizing everything to the averages of the seasons they occurred in. Simply. And then you have to adjust for the various differences in the ballparks everyone played. That sound simple, right? But if you're a baseball player, and you can look at the years you played and see that no one in baseball had more hits than you, that means something no matter what the "park factors" and changes in yearly averages tells you. Everyone who played in the years you did played by more or less the same rules and against more or less the same competition, so if no one else had more hits than you during the sum of the years you played, you've done something special, and joined a pretty amazing list of overlapping careers that spans back to the beginning of baseball.

Again, 3000 hits is 3000 hits. But Rickey Henderson got 3,055 in his years in the majors, while being out hit by 3 different players. Wade Boggs was out hit by Tony Gwynn during his years, and Tony Gwynn was 2nd to Cal Ripken. On the other hand, Kirby Puckett had just 2,304 hits in only 12 seasons - but that was 52 hits more than anyone else had in those 12 seasons. Similarly Bobby Doerr's career total was only 2,042 but that was still 34 more hits than anyone else had in those 14 seasons Doerr played. There's certainly no shame in 2nd place in this category - 22 of the 28 guys who finished 2nd in hits during the years they played are in the Hall of Fame, and Roberto Alomar's odds are pretty good to make it 23. Along with Gwynn, Boggs, and Alomar, that list includes Carl Yastrzemski, Ted Williams, Robin Yount, Rod Carew, Nap Lajoie, Willie Mays, Nellie Fox and Tris Speaker.

Unless Palmeiro makes a comeback and retakes the lead from Biggio, Mr. Astro will retire as the 29th player ever to lead the league in hits during the span of his career, and the first to lead the league in both hits and HBPs during the years he played. Of the other 28, only 5 are not in the Hall of Fame - one because he's banned, one because he hasn't been voted on yet (and tested positive for steroids).

Batters with the most total hits in the seasons they played:

Player
Seasons Top 5 in those years
Cal McVey
869
1871-1879 Cal McVey 869,
Deacon White 845,
George Wright 831,
Cap Anson 780,
Ross Barnes 779
Cap Anson*
3418
1871-1897 Cap Anson 3418,
Jim O'Rourke 2642,
Roger Conner 2467,
Dan Brouthers 2296,
Paul Hines 2134
Jimmy Ryan
2502
1885-1900, 1902-1903 Jimmy Ryan 2502,
Ed Delahanty 2404,
George Van Haltren 2350,
Jake Beckley 2323,
Jesse Burkett 2321
Ed Delahanty*
2596
1888-1903 Ed Delahanty 2596,
Jesse Burkett 2547,
Jake Beckley 2501,
George Van Haltren 2497,
Hugh Duffy 2257
Jake Beckley*
2930
1888-1907 Jake Beckley 2930,
Jesse Burkett 2850,
Willie Keeler 2749,
Ed Delahanty 2596,
Lave Cross 2591
Jesse Burkett*
2850
1890-1905 Jesse Burkett 2850,
Jake Beckley 2573,
Willie Keeler 2470,
Ed Delahanty 2458,
Lave Cross 2344
Willie Keeler*
2932
1892-1910 Willie Keeler 2932,
Jesse Burkett 2681,
Fred Clarke 2543,
Honus Wagner 2473,
Nap Lajoie 2456
Honus Wagner*
3415
1897-1917 Honus Wagner 3415,
Nap Lajoie 3185,
Sam Crawford 2961,
Ty Cobb 2361,
Willie Keeler 2240
Ty Cobb*
4189
1905-1928 Ty Cobb 4189,
Tris Speaker 3514,
Eddie Collins 3314,
Zack Wheat 2884,
Max Carey 2658
George Sisler*
2812
1915-1922, 1924-1930 George Sisler 2812,
Rogers Hornsby 2574,
Sam Rice 2455,
Harry Heilmann 2400,
Ty Cobb 2273
Sam Rice*
2987
1915-1934 Sam Rice 2987,
Rogers Hornsby 2905,
Babe Ruth 2858,
George Sisler 2812,
Frankie Frisch 2686
Frankie Frisch*
2880
1919-1937 Frankie Frisch 2880,
Sam Rice 2740,
Goose Goslin 2726,
Babe Ruth 2670,
Al Simmons 2631
Paul Waner*
3152
1926-1945 Paul Waner 3152,
Mel Ott 2871,
Charlie Gehringer 2830,
Jimmie Foxx 2640,
Doc Cramer 2603
Doc Cramer
2705
1929-1948 Doc Cramer 2705,
Mel Ott 2667,
Luke Appling 2571,
Paul Waner 2512,
Joe Medwick 2471
Luke Appling*
2749
1930-1943, 1945-1950 Luke Appling 2749,
Doc Cramer 2536,
Mel Ott 2373,
Billy Herman 2345,
Joe Medwick 2306
Joe DiMaggio*
2214
1936-1942, 1946-1951 Joe DiMaggio 2214,
Johnny Mize 1949,
Luke Appling 1830,
Enos Slaughter 1768,
Ted Williams 1763
Bobby Doerr*
2042
1937-1944, 1946-1951 Bobby Doerr 2042,
Joe DiMaggio 2008,
Stan Musial 1829,
Luke Appling 1818,
Johnny Mize 1813
Stan Musial*
3630
1941-1944, 1946-1963 Stan Musial 3630,
Richie Ashburn 2574,
Nellie Fox 2535,
Mickey Vernon 2421,
Red Schoendienst 2292
Richie Ashburn*
2574
1948-1962 Richie Ashburn 2574,
Stan Musial 2549,
Nellie Fox 2395,
Alvin Dark 2086,
Yogi Berra 2015
Hank Aaron*
3771
1954-1976 Hank Aaron 3771,
Willie Mays 3126,
Al Kaline 3000,
Roberto Clemente 3000,
Frank Robinson 2943
Pete Rose
4256
1963-1986 Pete Rose 4256,
Carl Yastrzemski 3073,
Rod Carew 3053,
Lou Brock 2908,
Al Oliver 2743
George Brett*
3154
1973-1993 George Brett 3154,
Robin Yount 3142,
Dave Winfield 3014,
Eddie Murray 2820,
Dave Parker 2712
Dave Winfield*
3110
1973-88, 1990-95 Dave Winfield 3110,
George Brett 3025,
Robin Yount 2947,
Eddie Murray 2924,
Andre Dawson 2653
Eddie Murray*
3255
1977-1997 Eddie Murray 3255,
Paul Molitor 3178,
Wade Boggs 2800,
Tony Gwynn 2780,
Andre Dawson 2754
Paul Molitor*
3319
1978-1998 Paul Molitor 3319,
Eddie Murray 3082,
Tony Gwynn 2928,
Wade Boggs 2922,
Cal Ripken 2878
Cal Ripken*
3184
1981-2001 Cal Ripken 3184,
Tony Gwynn 3141,
Wade Boggs 3010,
Paul Molitor 2852,
Harold Baines 2741
Kirby Puckett*
2304
1984-1995 Kirby Puckett 2304,
Tony Gwynn 2252,
Wade Boggs 2213,
Don Mattingly 2072,
Brett Butler 2005
Rafeal Palmeiro
3020
1986-2005 Rafael Palmeiro 3020,
Craig Biggio 2795,
Barry Bonds 2742,
Roberto Alomar 2724,
Tony Gwynn 2582
Craig Biggio
2942+
1988- Craig Biggio 2942,
Rafael Palmeiro 2941,
Robero Alomar 2724,
Barry Bonds 2614,
Steve Finley 2532

bigboydan · 06-13-07, 12:40 PM

We were actually talking about this earlier in this thread.

He might not be a first ballot HOF'er, but I do feel he will make it into Cooperstown in due time. Usually 3,000 hits does get you in there.

SBR_John · 06-13-07, 12:46 PM

Certainly NOT a 1st ballot guy. He is one of my favorites. An excellent catcher and base stealer in his day. he can play every position and his D is excellent at all the positions.

Damn good role model too.

Doc JS · 06-13-07, 12:50 PM

HOF'er for sure.

He's going to get over 3000 hits. And he's going to play, probably, for a couple of more years.

There is no one who is elgible who is not in the HOF that has more than 3000 hits.

This seems like a slam-dunk to me.

Doc JS

Doc JS · 06-13-07, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

Certainly NOT a 1st ballot guy. He is one of my favorites. An excellent catcher and base stealer in his day. he can play every position and his D is excellent at all the positions.

John,

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I think if he plays another two or three years and finishes within spitting distance of 3500 hits and it's not a super strong class in his first year of elgibility, then he may be a first ballot HOF'er.

Doc JS

Big Razorback · 06-13-07, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by Doc JS

John,

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I think if he plays another two or three years and finishes within spitting distance of 3500 hits and it's not a super strong class in his first year of elgibility, then he may be a first ballot HOF'er.

Doc JS

He is prob a 1st ballot guy, but for the Astros sake lets hope the guy gets his 3000 hit this year and doesnt get hurt.. He is simply OVER THE HILL. He would have been dropped with Bagwell if it were not for the 3000 hits... The Astros will be better off without him next year.. and trust me he wont be there next year!!!

Willie Bee · 06-13-07, 02:22 PM

Bagwell wasn't 'dropped;' he retired. It's a shame what happened to Bagwell with the arthritis in his shoulder. Just seems like he ought to be in the lineup with his 500 homers already in the bag when Biggio collects his 3,000th hit.

Biggio and Robby Alomar should both get into Cooperstown in my opinion, definitely the best second basemen to have played in the last 15+ years. But since the mediots in the BBWAA made Ryne Sandberg wait a ballot, I'm sure they're going to make Biggio wait until his second or third ballot as well. Remember, the BBWAA didn't put Joe DiMaggio in until his third ballot, and consists of voters who couldn't even all agree that the likes of Willie Mays or Ted Williams deserved to get in.

Doc JS · 06-13-07, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Willie Bee

Biggio and Robby Alomar should both get into Cooperstown in my opinion, definitely the best second basemen to have played in the last 15+ years.

I'm not as sure about Alomar as I am about Craig. I'm not saying that Alomar doesn't deserve to get in. I'm just saying that I think the spitting incident may come back to haunt him. He may eventually get in, even Juan Marachial did, but I think it may be a while.

Originally posted by Willie Bee

But since the mediots in the BBWAA made Ryne Sandberg wait a ballot, I'm sure they're going to make Biggio wait until his second or third ballot as well. Remember, the BBWAA didn't put Joe DiMaggio in until his third ballot, and consists of voters who couldn't even all agree that the likes of Willie Mays or Ted Williams deserved to get in.

I've never understood the "he's good enough to be a HOF'er but he's not a first ballot HOF'er" by some of these BBWAA guys. He's either an HOF'er or he's not, right?

Doc JS

BuddyBear · 06-13-07, 03:57 PM

He'll of course get in b/c he'll have 3000 hits but I agree with Razz that he is borderline at best....say he got a career ending injury tonight and never got a bat, he would not get it.

MaxDemo · 06-13-07, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Doc JS

I'm not as sure about Alomar as I am about Craig. I'm not saying that Alomar doesn't deserve to get in. I'm just saying that I think the spitting incident may come back to haunt him. He may eventually get in, even Juan Marachial did, but I think it may be a while.

I remember a debate about 7-8 yrs ago on the radio regarding Biggio and Alomar, of course Alomar was a better player at his peak, but his work ethic was awful and it showed in the end... I remember thinking 'no way Biggio goes over Alomar' , and now look at them....I never would have expected Biggio to play this long , this well....You can't deny him though, he's piled up some very impressve career totals..

Alomar was done very early...he looked like a shoe in for 3000 hits and he didn't come close....In some cases it's unfortunate the HOF rewards more for longevity than true greatness.

Alomar was a money player though, and a great defensive player... Biggio never did much in the post season either....ironically Biggio may be the only one of the two getting in.

MaxDemo · 06-13-07, 04:23 PM

Here is an quote from an article about Alomar...

Quote:
He had another MVP-level season in 2001, again tying for the league lead in Win Shares with 37 (Jason Giambi also had 37). Alomar hit .336 and slugged .541, both career-highs, and finished 4th in the MVP vote. After the season he was traded to the Mets, where his production just plummeted.

Alomar's average dropped 70 points in '01, to .266. His defense was deteriorating, and his stolen-base numbers were sliced in half. Midway through the 2003 season, Alomar was shipped to the White Sox, where he continued to decline. This past offseason he signed with Arizona, but he's spent most of the season on the disabled list. Up-and-coming 2B Scott Hairston has done a great job in Alomar's absence, and Roberto looks like little more than a bench player at this point. There has been talk of a team like the Yankees acquiring him for the second half, but there's little reason to think Alomar can hit above .270 anymore. It's a disappointing end to an excellent career.

So, summing up... Alomar cleared 30 Win Shares in a season 5 times, and led the league on 3 occasions. He hit .313 in the postseason (230 AB), won 10 Gold Gloves, and made 12 All-Star teams. Entering 2004, he had 373 career Win Shares, an outstanding total. Here are the leaders in career WS for players who were predominantly second basemen:

WSE. Collins 574J. Morgan 512R. Hornsby 502N. Lajoie 496R. Carew 384C. Gehringer 383C. Biggio 377R. Alomar 373F. Frisch 366L. Whitaker 351R. Sandberg 346B. Grich 329
I fear that Alomar will end up in the Whitaker/Sandberg/Grich group of guys who should be in the Hall but aren't. There are a handful of reasons for this:

1) Alomar was good at everything, but nothing really stood out. He always hit .300, but never won a batting title. He had good power, but it wasn't overwhelming. He was a phenomenal base-stealer (by both volume and success rate), but never led the league in steals. He played solid defense, but didn't put on a show like Rey Ordonez or Derek Jeter.

2) He played on too many teams. Whose cap would he wear on his Hall of Fame plaque? He spent 5 years with the Blue Jays, more than any other team, but only 3 of those years were really good. He may be most-remembered as an Oriole, but for the wrong reasons. He was with Cleveland for only 3 seasons, but two of them were MVP-type years. I guess I'd put him in as a Blue Jay, but it's rare for a Hall of Famer to play just 5 years for his "main" team.

3) The "attitude" issues. The Hirschbeck incident was the beginning of a downhill spiral in the perception of Alomar's character. By the time he was with the Mets, his presence was considered detrimental in the clubhouse, and he'll surely be remembered as a "problem" player.

4) The quick, early decline. Alomar never had that "big fade" that most outstanding players have, and unlike a Kirby Puckett, he didn't just stop when he was good. He collapsed at 34, and has been plodding along ever since. Let's say he plays 2 more years after this one; that would be 5 crappy seasons at the end of his career. Not a good thing to leave in the voters' memory.

5) No big milestones. There was a time when Alomar was nearly a lock for 3,000 hits. Now, though, he's sitting at 2688, meaning he's 312 hits away. He's not a regular anymore, and he's 2 regular years away from 3K. Off the top of my head, I'd give him a 50-50 shot at making it. I suspect his Hall status depends on that.

Another thing is, his career average is on the brink of falling under .300. It's at .300 on the nose right now, and Alomar is no longer a good hitter for average. We all know a few points in batting average is no big deal, but not having "career .300 hitter" on his resume will only hurt his chances.

I'd vote for Roberto Alomar in a minute; he's easily one of the top 10 second basemen of all time, and arguably in the top 5. He's also been one of the best players of his generation. In the 20-year period from 1984-2003, Alomar ranks 6th in total Win Shares:

WS1. B. Bonds 6112. R. Henderson 4063. T. Gwynn 3814. R. Clemens 3785. C. Biggio 3776. R. Alomar 3737. R. Palmeiro 3718. C. Ripken 3699. J. Bagwell 36210. G. Maddux 347 F. Thomas 347
Hall or no, Alomar is an all-time great. It's a shame a tantrum in 1996 and a lousy end of his career may ruin the way he's remembered.

Stumpage · 06-13-07, 04:28 PM

I gotta say Yes.....This guy has always been a rock, as steady as they come, and 3000 hits to boot. Plus, if WBee gives him a Yes, that's good enough for me seeing that Bee has been an Astro fan basically for the length of the franchise...

zootiehead · 06-13-07, 07:16 PM

I don't think of him as a hall of famer, but I checked baseball-reference.com and they list 10 players he is most similar too. Seven of them are in the HOF.

1. Robin Yount (850) *
2. Roberto Alomar (824)
3. Joe Morgan (823) *
4. Paul Molitor (795) *
5. Lou Whitaker (783)
6. Ryne Sandberg (774) *
7. Cal Ripken (764) *
8. Brooks Robinson (759) *
9. Charlie Gehringer (757) *
10. Vada Pinson (752)

LargeMouthBass · 06-14-07, 07:04 AM

Does he have a small head or something? Cause I remember his helmet used to always be bigger than his head.

MaxDemo · 06-16-07, 09:46 AM

Friday June 15, 2007
Second baseman Craig Biggio had a big night. He went 3-for-5 with a double and RBI to pass Sam Rice and move into sole possession of 27th place on the all-time hits list with 2,988. His next target is Roberto Clemente, who had 3,000.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4895224.html

Career Leaders for Doubles

Rank Player (age) Doubles Bats
1. Tris Speaker+* 792 L
2. Pete Rose# 746 B
3. Stan Musial+* 725 L
4. Ty Cobb+* 724 L
5. George Brett+* 665 L
6. Craig Biggio (41) 657 R
Nap Lajoie+ 657 R
8. Carl Yastrzemski+* 646 L