1. #1
    bulle
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    Betfair asks for proof of income

    Good morning.

    A few days ago, Betfair initiated a KYC process and asked me for a proof of income.
    They now want a full explanation of how i'm funding my account as well as documentation that illustrates it.
    My account is now blocked and i can't get access to it until the information is provided and the KYC process is finished.

    What are your thoughts on this? Do they have rights to ask for such kind of documents?
    Last edited by bulle; 05-08-17 at 02:22 AM.

  2. #2
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulle View Post
    Good morning.

    A few days ago, Betfair initiated a KYC process and asked me for a proof of income.
    They now want a full explanation of how i'm funding my account as well as documentation that illustrates it.
    My account is now blocked and i can't get access to it until the information is provided and the KYC process is finished.

    What are your thoughts on this? Do they have rights to ask for such kind of documents?
    Sadly they really do "appear to have the right" to ask for this as part of their responsibility under AML laws.

    Personally I think it's ridiculous that bookmakers should be the ones asking for this sort of proof but they have been in certain cases for a while and regulators seem to just accept it being done.
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  3. #3
    Hareeba!
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    Presumably this relates to Betfair's sportsbook rather than exchange?

    For some reason it seems they may suspect you're betting on behalf of someone who's account has been closed or limited?

  4. #4
    bulle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareeba! View Post
    Presumably this relates to Betfair's sportsbook rather than exchange?

    For some reason it seems they may suspect you're betting on behalf of someone who's account has been closed or limited?
    No it's actually exclusively exchange bets.
    I think they are asking because i have lost relatively big amounts recently.

  5. #5
    shaunovery
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    By law uk bookies can ask for a proof of income , when I worked with coral we had high staking customers that needed to supply proof in income

  6. #6
    jjgold
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    it is because of money laundering rules and betting with dirty money

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  7. #7
    Craig22
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    Move your capital over to Matchbook, they are also an exchange and only charge 1% commission for trades. If everyone moves over to Matchbook from Betfair, Matchbook will be more inclined to offer more markets with the higher liquidity. Betfair is a disgusting scam run by a management team who seems to only raise costs, an absolutely terrible marketing practice if you ask me. It's time for everyone to leave Betfair and never go back.
    Last edited by Craig22; 05-08-17 at 07:46 PM.
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  8. #8
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig22 View Post
    Move your capital over to Matchbook, they are also an exchange and only charge 1% commission for trades. If everyone moves over to Matchbook from Betfair, Matchbook will be more inclined to offer more markets with the higher liquidity. Betfair is a disgusting scam run by a management team who seems to only raise costs, an absolutely terrible marketing practice if you ask me. It's time for everyone to leave Betfair and never go back.
    Matchbook's current standard commission rates are 1.5% accept or 0.75% offer (UK and Irish customers 1.7% and 0.85% respectively)
    But to compare those rates with Betfair's standard is misleading.
    Matchbook charge commission on losing bets as well as winning bets whereas Betfair only on winnings.
    So Matchbook's effective rate is closer to 3% if you accept odds on offer.
    Furthermore Matchbook charge commission on each trade rather than on net market result as Betfair does so is most unfriendly for trading.
    Regular Betfair customers get commission rate discounts which can reduce their standard 5% down to as low as 2%.
    But users from different countries do incur different basic commission rates at Betfair.
    Of course Matchbook doesn't have a Premium Charge which Betfair imposes on some profitable customers.
    Bottom line: It's not as simple as just looking at the headline commission rate.
    Further: Matchbook would be bound by the same KYC provisions as Betfair so there's no guarantee they too wouldn't ask for the same levels of proof of income.
    Last edited by Hareeba!; 05-08-17 at 08:56 PM.

  9. #9
    Craig22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareeba! View Post
    Matchbook's current standard commission rates are 1.5% accept or 0.75% offer (UK and Irish customers 1.7% and 0.85% respectively)
    But to compare those rates with Betfair's standard is misleading.
    Matchbook charge commission on losing bets as well as winning bets whereas Betfair only on winnings.
    So Matchbook's effective rate is closer to 3% if you accept odds on offer.
    Furthermore Matchbook charge commission on each trade rather than on net market result as Betfair does so is most unfriendly for trading.
    Regular Betfair customers get commission rate discounts which can reduce their standard 5% down to as low as 2%.
    But users from different countries do incur different basic commission rates at Betfair.
    Of course Matchbook doesn't have a Premium Charge which Betfair imposes on some profitable customers.
    Bottom line: It's not as simple as just looking at the headline commission rate.
    Further: Matchbook would be bound by the same KYC provisions as Betfair so there's no guarantee they too wouldn't ask for the same levels of proof of income.
    Oh wow, I've been away for a while. Did not even know that Matchbook raised their commission costs on net; I agree that the 1% flat fee on all bets was better than what they have in place now. I generally use Matchbook to bet on baseball and Tennis.
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  10. #10
    bulle
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    Even if i would, i can't move to matchbook as my funds on betfair are frozen at the moment.

    My main concern now is to prove that i actually make money from gambling, without being accused of fraudulent activity such as money laundering.
    I mean, how do i do that? Obviously, i have been trading a lot between different betting companies, which means that money actually have been moved around back and forth.
    I can prove that the original deposit, made for almost 10 years ago, was legit, but that seems not to make any sense at the moment.
    How do i get out of this as smooth as possible?

  11. #11
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulle View Post
    Even if i would, i can't move to matchbook as my funds on betfair are frozen at the moment.

    My main concern now is to prove that i actually make money from gambling, without being accused of fraudulent activity such as money laundering.
    I mean, how do i do that? Obviously, i have been trading a lot between different betting companies, which means that money actually have been moved around back and forth.
    I can prove that the original deposit, made for almost 10 years ago, was legit, but that seems not to make any sense at the moment.
    How do i get out of this as smooth as possible?
    Have you explained it's your gambling bankroll and asked them what they would like to see to prove that?

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  12. #12
    bulle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    Have you explained it's your gambling bankroll and asked them what they would like to see to prove that?
    Yes they want me to show a "P&L report that demonstrates my winnings".
    Time period and what parameters that are important within this report is not defined.

    A bank statement that showed withdrawals was not enough.

  13. #13
    betakos
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    How much losses are we talking about? Do they request 10 year, 5 year or just a year of documentation? Of course raises the question on how secure your documents will be with a private bookmaker like Betfair

  14. #14
    bulle
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    Quote Originally Posted by betakos View Post
    How much losses are we talking about? Do they request 10 year, 5 year or just a year of documentation? Of course raises the question on how secure your documents will be with a private bookmaker like Betfair
    €100000+
    Time period is not defined except that the documents are expected to prove that the gambling activity is funded by the gambling activity per se.

  15. #15
    dealer wins
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    This is all getting silly now. As long as you can show the deposit coming from a bank account in your name, that is enough proof for any betting company. If they still want to Betfair can report you for suspected money laundering to the authorities to look into it.

    Quote: If your business is regulated by the Money Laundering Regulations you must take steps to identify any activity you suspect may be linked to money laundering or terrorist financing. If you know or suspect there is such a link you must report it to the National Crime Agency (NCA)

  16. #16
    bulle
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    Quote Originally Posted by dealer wins View Post
    This is all getting silly now. As long as you can show the deposit coming from a bank account in your name, that is enough proof for any betting company. If they still want to Betfair can report you for suspected money laundering to the authorities to look into it.

    Quote: If your business is regulated by the Money Laundering Regulations you must take steps to identify any activity you suspect may be linked to money laundering or terrorist financing. If you know or suspect there is such a link you must report it to the National Crime Agency (NCA)
    I agree with you about the first part, but as i mentioned above, they did not accept bank statement as proof of income.
    They want to see a detailed report of betslips, including stake, selection, odds etc.
    What is your conclusion? Do you mean that i should refuse to provide them this information?

  17. #17
    dealer wins
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    I would refuse, and I would start a complaint with their regulator.

  18. #18
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulle View Post
    Yes they want me to show a "P&L report that demonstrates my winnings".
    Time period and what parameters that are important within this report is not defined.

    A bank statement that showed withdrawals was not enough.
    Geebus.

    It could still be about money laundering but from that it sounds like they might just want to determine if you really can afford to lose 100k.

    The last thing you should do is refuse. Once you do that they can close the case and say you refused as the reason. Pretty much always say that you want to help/comply at every step.

    If this was me I would start by giving them as much detail as I could. I would probably try to obtain deposit/withdrawal transaction histories from my other books and just give that to start with.

    If that doesnt support my case very well I'd probably send them as much betting history I can download from other bookies along with any personal spreadhseets I have kept showing PL.

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  19. #19
    shari91
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    Don't refuse!!!

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  20. #20
    Optional
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    Just so readers know, Bulle contacted me by PM and explained a little bit more.

    I think the whole thing is simpler than it sounded here in the thread and am pretty confident he will be able to give Betfair what they need without a lot of effort.

    He was just being careful not to compromise himself, so I will leave it to him to explain more if he wishes to.

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  21. #21
    bulle
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    Thank you for your answers.
    I will provide them with relevant information, and hope that it will be sorted out soon.
    I will keep you updated.

  22. #22
    Optional
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    Good luck Bulle. Fingers crossed it will be as easy to solve as I think.

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  23. #23
    dealer wins
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    Its one thing proving your identity, quite another for a company to request details of business you do at other companies. Thats private between you and the other companies IMO and Betfair have no right to ask for it full stop.

    What next, keep a webcam open on you when you do any betting.

  24. #24
    bulle
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    Quote Originally Posted by dealer wins View Post
    Its one thing proving your identity, quite another for a company to request details of business you do at other companies. Thats private between you and the other companies IMO and Betfair have no right to ask for it full stop.

    What next, keep a webcam open on you when you do any betting.
    Totally agree.

  25. #25
    bulle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    Geebus.

    It could still be about money laundering but from that it sounds like they might just want to determine if you really can afford to lose 100k.

    The last thing you should do is refuse. Once you do that they can close the case and say you refused as the reason. Pretty much always say that you want to help/comply at every step.

    If this was me I would start by giving them as much detail as I could. I would probably try to obtain deposit/withdrawal transaction histories from my other books and just give that to start with.

    If that doesnt support my case very well I'd probably send them as much betting history I can download from other bookies along with any personal spreadhseets I have kept showing PL.
    Ok tried all the things you mentioned but nothing seems to work.
    The only thing that works for them is an official P&L document, showing bets rather than deposits/withdrawal, and that has to be provided by the company. The data from Betting history tool is not accepted.

    Which kind of confuses me a little bit. A documentation of deposits and withdrawals should really be enough if they actually only were looking for making sure that a player can "afford" loosing money.

    I got a feeling that they are looking for something else here.

  26. #26
    Foxx
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulle View Post
    Ok tried all the things you mentioned but nothing seems to work.
    The only thing that works for them is an official P&L document, showing bets rather than deposits/withdrawal, and that has to be provided by the company. The data from Betting history tool is not accepted.
    Which kind of confuses me a little bit. A documentation of deposits and withdrawals should really be enough if they actually only were looking for making sure that a player can "afford" loosing money.
    I got a feeling that they are looking for something else here.
    That sucks. Sounds like they're asking for too much at this point if they won't accept the reports you can produce with your user interface on the other sites. Hope you can get it sorted out man.

  27. #27
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulle View Post

    Ok tried all the things you mentioned but nothing seems to work.
    The only thing that works for them is an official P&L document, showing bets rather than deposits/withdrawal, and that has to be provided by the company. The data from Betting history tool is not accepted.

    Which kind of confuses me a little bit. A documentation of deposits and withdrawals should really be enough if they actually only were looking for making sure that a player can "afford" loosing money.

    I got a feeling that they are looking for something else here.
    That's a shame.

    They want another bookmaker to produce a report for them? Is that correct?

    I'm not sure what else they could be looking for from that sort of info. Have to think about it.

    I haven't heard of this specific request before.

    What do you plan to do?

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  28. #28
    Optional
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    And what country are you in?

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  29. #29
    Optional
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    Also, did you actually send the info I suggested or just ask them if that would be sufficient?

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  30. #30
    bulle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    That's a shame.

    They want another bookmaker to produce a report for them? Is that correct?

    I'm not sure what else they could be looking for from that sort of info. Have to think about it.

    I haven't heard of this specific request before.

    What do you plan to do?
    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    Also, did you actually send the info I suggested or just ask them if that would be sufficient?
    Yes that is correct. I have actually provided them everything, including deposits/withdrawals from both bank and bookie as well as complete betting history for 2017. The funny thing is that they are still not satisfied. I have been dealing with them back and forth for 4 days now. They are looking for a very very specific report from a specific bookmaker. So I assume that the whole thing is just a question of formality. I will try to find that report and see what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    And what country are you in?
    Sweden

  31. #31
    shari91
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    bulle send a proper complaint form in to SBR at https://www.sportsbookreview.com/sportsbook-complaint/

    A staff member who may have experience with dealing with something like this isn't posting on the forum, including myself and Optional, as this seems to be very bizarre if it is exactly as you're saying

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  32. #32
    TheMoneyShot
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    I don't quite understand why a book would care where a player is getting his money at?

    Especially if that player is losing his a$$.

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  33. #33
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMoneyShot View Post
    I don't quite understand why a book would care where a player is getting his money at?

    Especially if that player is losing his a$$.
    This is what full regulation is like TMS. Offshore not bad eh!

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  34. #34
    shari91
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMoneyShot View Post
    I don't quite understand why a book would care where a player is getting his money at?

    Especially if that player is losing his a$$.
    It's a proper sportsbook. Not saying others aren't obviously but those onshore have different regs.

    The only thing I can think is that they assume he's dumping a heap of money on one side to wash it on another.

    Imagine being grilled for losing too much. Holy sheeit my books would have a field day

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  35. #35
    PaperTrail07
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    LOL if someone asked me where I got the 100K I tricked off-They might not get a great response LOL....
    Quote Originally Posted by shari91 View Post
    It's a proper sportsbook. Not saying others aren't obviously but those onshore have different regs.

    The only thing I can think is that they assume he's dumping a heap of money on one side to wash it on another.

    Imagine being grilled for losing too much. Holy sheeit my books would have a field day
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