Moneybookers issue

[teddybreak]

Hi,

Before I going to write down everything I would like to ask if this is the correct place to discuss some issues I have with moneybookers? Or can/should I contact the SBR guys?

Thanks

[AimingHigh]

I would guess it's best to use their (Moneybookers') internal complaints service, and then to complain to the FSA if necessary.

It's laborious to use their internal messaging system - you simply have to wait for a reply, and if you update the dispute with a further message, they send you to the back of the line! Alternatively, I believe you can phone them, if this is something that can be resolved over the phone, and for which you don't feel you'll need written evidence of the correspondence.

I wouldn't think that SBR would be able to assist as Moneybookers is a payment provider - like PayPal - not a bookie with a bookie's reputation at stake. Plus they're properly regulated in the UK, so any genuine grievances are best channelled through the appropriate authorities (here: FSA).

[Toit]

On the other hand, a lot of people on this board use Moneybookers so if there are issues they might be able to give advice.

[Peep]

I have gotten help on moneybookers issues by posting about it here a few times.

[teddybreak]

All right, I am also in contact with the financial ombudsman service at the moment, but I will write down the issues here too (tonight probably), extra help is always welcome.

[teddybreak]

Ok, you won't believe it, but I am still dealing with this matter. And at the moment I'm stuck.

As said I'm trying to get the Financial Ombudsman to deal with this issue, but I am not getting any further at the moment.

I sent all the mails, info etc. to the Financial Ombudsman and the reply I got was:

Dear Mr

Thank you for your email.

I have reviewed the emails that you have submitted and I can confirm that neither represent the firm's final decision letter. Please contact the firm if you have not done so already and request a final decision letter be issued. You can sends this to me if need be when returning your complaint form.

Kind regards

That said, when I log in to my account at Moneybookers I get the following message:

'Your account has been closed for security reasons. You should have received confirmation of this via email from our Security Department. Please note that this decision is now final and we apologise for any inconvenience caused.'

I forwarded this to the Financial Ombudsman, and the reply I got was:

Dear Mr

Thank you for your email.

I have reviewed the emails that you have submitted and I can confirm that neither represent the firm's final decision letter. Please contact the firm if you have not done so already and request a final decision letter be issued. You can sends this to me if need be when returning your complaint form.

Kind regards

Since I can not access my account and therefore cannot use Moneybookers internal mail system and the fact Moneybookers clearly stated this was their final decision I mailed the Financial Ombudsman again, since I did not know what to do, this was their reply:

Dear Mr

Thank you for your email.

I will need to see evidence that you have exhausted the firms internal complaints procedure, the firm are allowed eight weeks to complete their investigation. Alternatively, please forward to me a copy of the firms final decision letter based upon their completed internal investigation into your complaint, this letter will give you a six month referral period to refer your case to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Kind regards

Well, it seems the only way to get this sorted out was to contact Moneybookers. Moneybookers confirmed their last mail and the closure of my account was indeed their final decision. I even requested a written confirmation of that, which I got soon after my conversation on the phone:

Dear Mr

Thank you for contacting us again.

Further to our conversation over the phone, we would like to confirm that your Moneybookers account has been closed and you have received a notification email from our Security team on the 24th of August 2009.

This is the final decision of our Security team as you did not manage to comply with our Terms and Conditions that you have accepted upon registering your Moneybookers account.

Do not hesitate to contact us again if you have any further questions.

Best regards,
***
Moneybookers Ltd

So I forwarded this to the Financial Ombudsman Service and, after having to send it twice, because I did not get an answer at first their reply was:

Dear Mr

The decision taken below by the firm justifies why you have raised a complaint, i.e., you are complaining about the fact that you no longer have access to your account.

This is not a final decision based upon you exhausting the firms internal complaints procedure, the firm are only stating that the act of closing your account will not be reversed. If you still wish to challenge their decision, you will need to exhaust the firm internal complaints procedure in an effort to receive a final decision letter based upon their decision of refusing not to reactivate your account.

Kind regards

I really don't know what to do now to get the Financial Ombudsman Service to assess my case.

Any suggestions please?

[davidchong]

where you from teddy?,

[TheBeautifulGame]

Do you have funds in the account? If so, have they mentioned that they are returning the funds to you. If you don't have any funds in the account, I don't think there is anything you can do. They have closed your account for a reason (be it justified or not)

[korbal29]

Is it possible to give more details of the the dispute?

[Dunder]

I would wager that Moneybookers have not and will not give any details of what he has done to breach the Ts&Cs.

They once (many moons ago) locked my account pending a "security investigation". They took a couple of weeks to sort it out but I never found out what they were "investigating". The most common issue with them is that people open multiple accounts in different currencies (to avoid conversions fees).

To the OP: Have you lost any money?

[teddybreak]

where you from teddy?,

Holland.

[teddybreak]

Do you have funds in the account? If so, have they mentioned that they are returning the funds to you. If you don't have any funds in the account, I don't think there is anything you can do. They have closed your account for a reason (be it justified or not)

I had funds in my account, Moneybookers have transferred it to my bank account, so that's taken care off. But I am positive Moneybookers have closed my account without a proper reason.

In the first place I am carrying trouggh for the principle. Moneybookers has treated me like a bag of shit by taking several months to come up with an answer to my messages and over 1,5 years to come up with a final decision, which I obviously am not satisfied with. But I also want moneybookers to admit they were wrong and reopen my account.

[noyb]

they don't need a proper reason to close your account, they can do whatever they please. sorry, but your complaint is going nowhere.

also, you're obviously not a big fan of moneybookers, and it would seem it is safe to conclude from your post you do not even want to use them anymore. so why do you want them to reopen the account if they're "a bag of shit"?

[teddybreak]

Is it possible to give more details of the the dispute?

I wish I could.

These are some facts I can give you:
-In 2007! Moneybookers locked my account because of a security issue (just like Dunder above it seems).
-I followed all their instructions and did all the things requested to get my account reopened again
-Several mails remained unanswered or answered several weeks or even months after being sent. A dozen phonecalls didn't help me any further either.
-A couple of months ago I sent my ID again (after I did that back in 2007 and even got the confirmation they received it!) and a few months later I got the message my account was going to be closed
-Asking for a reason they never gave out any information whatsoever, so I can only guess why my account is closed
-Now I am trying to get the Financial Ombudsman Service to deal with Moneybookers, but that hasn't been a success either as you can see above

If you like to know any further details please let me know.

[teddybreak]

I would wager that Moneybookers have not and will not give any details of what he has done to breach the Ts&Cs.

They once (many moons ago) locked my account pending a "security investigation". They took a couple of weeks to sort it out but I never found out what they were "investigating". The most common issue with them is that people open multiple accounts in different currencies (to avoid conversions fees).

To the OP: Have you lost any money?

To answer your last question: no.

But I can't think of any reason for closing my account.

[teddybreak]

they don't need a proper reason to close your account, they can do whatever they please. sorry, but your complaint is going nowhere.

also, you're obviously not a big fan of moneybookers, and it would seem it is safe to conclude from your post you do not even want to use them anymore. so why do you want them to reopen the account if they're "a bag of shit"?

They do need a proper reason for the actions they take. Sorry, but your reply is going nowhere.

Also, if you would have read my post, you would not have said that I do not want to use their service anymore. Furthermore I am not saying that they are 'a bag of shit', I'm saying they have treated me like one.

[noyb]

They do need a proper reason for the actions they take. Sorry, but your reply is going nowhere.

Also, if you would have read my post, you would not have said that I do not want to use their service anymore. Furthermore I am not saying that they are 'a bag of shit', I'm saying they have treated me like one.

on the first point you're wrong. a bank is allowed to decline/terminate a customer, a book is allowed to decline/terminate a customer and Moneybookers is allowed to decline/terminate a customer if they feel like it.
their T&C (17) is quite clear on this as well. depending on the situation, they might or might not have had to notify you, but apparently they did. they may or may not have given you a reason why they terminated your account, but basically they don't have to. whether you agree with their decision or whether you think you've actually done anything wrong is completely irrelevant. my guess is there's more to this story (since you're from the Netherlands I can guess one or two things that might have happened with payment methods being used for betting that weren't supposed to be used at that time), but even if there isn't, there's nothing you can do.

on the second point you're correct. i misread. let me rephrase: why would you want to use a service that has treated you like a "bag of shit"

[Toit]

Nightmare scenario.
You didn't transfer money to friends with a dodgy reputation at moneybookers?

I seem to remember that a few years ago some Dutch people were trying to bypass some security rule by transferring money to and from each others accounts.

[teddybreak]

on the first point you're wrong. a bank is allowed to decline/terminate a customer, a book is allowed to decline/terminate a customer and Moneybookers is allowed to decline/terminate a customer if they feel like it.
their T&C (17) is quite clear on this as well. depending on the situation, they might or might not have had to notify you, but apparently they did. they may or may not have given you a reason why they terminated your account, but basically they don't have to. whether you agree with their decision or whether you think you've actually done anything wrong is completely irrelevant.

Incorrect, at least in my case, as they are claim I have 'misused the service and/or breached the Terms of Use' and giving that as a reason for locking and closing my account Rule 17.1 does not apply in that case.

my guess is there's more to this story (since you're from the Netherlands I can guess one or two things that might have happened with payment methods being used for betting that weren't supposed to be used at that time),

Wrong guess, I have completely stayed out of these things, as I knew they were not allowed at that time.

but even if there isn't, there's nothing you can do.

There is, as you can read above.

on the second point you're correct. i misread. let me rephrase: why would you want to use a service that has treated you like a "bag of shit"

Because they offer a certain kind of service, that is pretty useful.

If you have nothing to contribute, I would like you to not contribute to this discussion any further. I am not asking you to judge if Moneybookers was correct, I am asking how to deal with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

[teddybreak]

Nightmare scenario.
You didn't transfer money to friends with a dodgy reputation at moneybookers?

I did transfer Money to other users a few (one or two times iirc) (never received money from another user), can't tell you if they had/have a dodgy reputation.

I seem to remember that a few years ago some Dutch people were trying to bypass some security rule by transferring money to and from each others accounts.

Correct. That absolutely did not happen with my account however.

[noyb]

Incorrect, at least in my case, as they are claim I have 'misused the service and/or breached the Terms of Use' and giving that as a reason for locking and closing my account Rule 17.1 does not apply in that case.

Not sure what your point is to be honest. I can't remember writing about rule 17.1 anywhere. Obviously, based on your explanation rule 17.4 does apply:
"17.4. We may at any time suspend or terminate your Moneybookers Account without notice in case:
17.4.1. you breach any condition of these Terms of Use or any other condition applicable to specific services covered by separate terms and conditions;"

Now, where exactly does it say they are obliged to provide you with a further explanation and evidence about your wrongdoing (again: if they had confiscated any funds this would be a different matter entirely)?

Because they offer a certain kind of service, that is pretty useful..

Ah, so it's not a matter of principle after all, but rather a more practical matter. That clears things up.

If you have nothing to contribute, I would like you to not contribute to this discussion any further. I am not asking you to judge if Moneybookers was correct, I am asking how to deal with the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Well, this is an open forum as you might have noticed. I'll judge whatever I want and post whatever I want, unless a moderator, which you are not, objects.

[teddybreak]

Not sure what your point is to be honest. I can't remember writing about rule 17.1 anywhere.

You wrote:

a bank is allowed to decline/terminate a customer, a book is allowed to decline/terminate a customer and Moneybookers is allowed to decline/terminate a customer if they feel like it.

Feeling like it only refers to rule 17.1, not rule 17.4 as you now write about.

Obviously, based on your explanation rule 17.4 does apply:
"17.4. We may at any time suspend or terminate your Moneybookers Account without notice in case:
17.4.1. you breach any condition of these Terms of Use or any other condition applicable to specific services covered by separate terms and conditions;"

Now, where exactly does it say they are obliged to provide you with a further explanation and evidence about your wrongdoing (again: if they had confiscated any funds this would be a different matter entirely)?

Now, where exactly does it say they can lock and close my account, saying I have broken their rules, while not having done that?

Ah, so it's not a matter of principle after all, but rather a more practical matter. That clears things up.

It is a matter of both, as I said.

Well, this is an open forum as you might have noticed. I'll judge whatever I want and post whatever I want, unless a moderator, which you are not, objects.

This is a thread where you can contribute to a discussion on a certain subject. What you are posting now is not in the question and therefore offtopic and also reported to the moderators now.

[noyb]

You wrote:

a bank is allowed to decline/terminate a customer, a book is allowed to decline/terminate a customer and Moneybookers is allowed to decline/terminate a customer if they feel like it.

Feeling like it only refers to rule 17.1, not rule 17.4 as you now write about.

Well, you "felt" wrong. I didn't refer to 17.1, as I had no way of knowing what they were accusing you of.

Now, where exactly does it say they can lock and close my account, saying I have broken their rules, while not having done that?

It says they can lock and close your account right there, if they notice you have breached their Terms of Use in whatever way. Whatever you think, believe or do isn't relevant. I totally agree with you it would have been much a lot more practical if Moneybookers would have been a bit more straightforward with you and had been more forthcoming with evidence, but basically they don't need to and they usually aren't (like Neteller and like many books). I even agree they treated you like a "bag of shit", I'm just warning you they are within their rights and putting all of your energy into a dispute that you are never going to win is a waste. If you don't believe me, fine.

This is a thread where you can contribute to a discussion on a certain subject. What you are posting now is not in the question and therefore offtopic and also reported to the moderators now.

What I'm posting is relevant to the topic imo. You can't open a topic and expect posts in it to be exactly in the form you want them to be. Fine, you reported it to the moderators, good luck. You do realize that means every post here should be deleted, as nobody actually gave you any practical advice on how to approach the Ombudsman in a more convincing way (not sure you noticed, but the Ombudsman isn't exactly jumping with joy to take on your case either) and everybody commented on the dispute itself? If you solely want to discuss ways to get through to the Financial Ombudsman, or how to get that final decision letter you're after, you're on the wrong forum, as I doubt many here have ever been through that loop. Try a UK banking forum.

[AimingHigh]

Teddy, I'm confused. In Post 14, you said (copied as the quote function doesn't seem to work in Opera):

I wish I could.

These are some facts I can give you:
-In 2007! Moneybookers locked my account because of a security issue (just like Dunder above it seems).
-I followed all their instructions and did all the things requested to get my account reopened again
-Several mails remained unanswered or answered several weeks or even months after being sent. A dozen phonecalls didn't help me any further either.
-A couple of months ago I sent my ID again (after I did that back in 2007 and even got the confirmation they received it!) and a few months later I got the message my account was going to be closed
-Asking for a reason they never gave out any information whatsoever, so I can only guess why my account is closed
-Now I am trying to get the Financial Ombudsman Service to deal with Moneybookers, but that hasn't been a success either as you can see above

If you like to know any further details please let me know.

Is this dispute from 2007? If not, what do the facts in 2007 have the do with the current problem? Did you open a second account when you couldn't get the 2007 account re-opened? Or did you get it re-opened and you're just saying it seems like the same thing happened again?

More generally, as Moneybookers have given you your funds, the FSA has no substantive dispute to act upon. Any issue is now purely about the process used to close your account as Moneybookers are perfectly free to decline to do business with you. Could you get compensation for any loss caused by the process used to close your account, possibly I don't know (though the FSA guidelines will say for sure) but, even if potentially available in theory, the effort required to pursue it via the FSA is very likely much more than any financial payout. You certainly won't be able to get the FSA to force Moneybookers to continue to do business with you, and it sounds like this is what you really want. Perhaps you can use Neteller, instead?

[teddybreak]

Teddy, I'm confused. In Post 14, you said (copied as the quote function doesn't seem to work in Opera):

I wish I could.

These are some facts I can give you:
-In 2007! Moneybookers locked my account because of a security issue (just like Dunder above it seems).
-I followed all their instructions and did all the things requested to get my account reopened again
-Several mails remained unanswered or answered several weeks or even months after being sent. A dozen phonecalls didn't help me any further either.
-A couple of months ago I sent my ID again (after I did that back in 2007 and even got the confirmation they received it!) and a few months later I got the message my account was going to be closed
-Asking for a reason they never gave out any information whatsoever, so I can only guess why my account is closed
-Now I am trying to get the Financial Ombudsman Service to deal with Moneybookers, but that hasn't been a success either as you can see above

If you like to know any further details please let me know.

Is this dispute from 2007? If not, what do the facts in 2007 have the do with the current problem? Did you open a second account when you couldn't get the 2007 account re-opened? Or did you get it re-opened and you're just saying it seems like the same thing happened again?

Yes, the dispute is from 2007. The account got locked back then and closed a few months ago. It was locked all the way from 2007 until the closure. I'm talking about one single account (and my only account I ever had at Moneybookers).

More generally, as Moneybookers have given you your funds, the FSA has no substantive dispute to act upon. Any issue is now purely about the process used to close your account as Moneybookers are perfectly free to decline to do business with you.

In fact there is. Moneybookers has delivered a sub-par performance, while dealing with me. This is already reason enough for me to get the Financial Ombudsman into action. I am aware Moneybookers can decline to do business with me, but they are not doing that, they claim I have acted against their rules and have closed my account for that reason, which I haven't as far as I know.

Could you get compensation for any loss caused by the process used to close your account, possibly I don't know (though the FSA guidelines will say for sure) but, even if potentially available in theory, the effort required to pursue it via the FSA is very likely much more than any financial payout. You certainly won't be able to get the FSA to force Moneybookers to continue to do business with you, and it sounds like this is what you really want.

I would like that, yes. They can throw me out on another rule if they would like to(I don't know why they would like to do that with a normal account, which generates them money?), but not with false accusations like they are doing now.

Perhaps you can use Neteller, instead?

I am already using Neteller. But being able to use them both would be better for me, of course.