Betfair premium charge

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  • shaunovery
    SBR Posting Legend
    • 11-15-07
    • 18143

    #1
    Betfair premium charge
    Anyone knows how this works I've tried reading on the website but it seems confusing
  • Hareeba!
    BARRELED IN @ SBR!
    • 07-01-06
    • 37194

    #2
    LOL!

    And you seriously think there's a chance of getting a less confusing (and reliable) answer on a public forum?
    Comment
    • shaunovery
      SBR Posting Legend
      • 11-15-07
      • 18143

      #3
      Originally posted by Hareeba!
      LOL!

      And you seriously think there's a chance of getting a less confusing (and reliable) answer on a public forum?
      Hopefully I'll get 1 sensible comment
      Comment
      • Art Vandeleigh
        SBR MVP
        • 12-31-06
        • 1494

        #4
        Hareeba is sort of correct. To pay premium charge, you have to be not just profitable, but very profitable week after week after week (either because you're an amazing handicapper or more likely because you have a tehnological edge). If you are able to profit week after week for either of these reasons, you should be able to follow along with how Betfair describes it. If you're not very profitable you won't have to worry about premium charge.
        Last edited by Art Vandeleigh; 07-10-14, 08:14 AM.
        Comment
        • Optional
          Administrator
          • 06-10-10
          • 61374

          #5
          If your lifetime profit is more than 5 times the amount of commission paid you qualify.

          They exclude any big wins from the calc though, so it would be pretty strange if any regular punter got caught up in it.
          .
          Comment
          • dealer wins
            SBR Wise Guy
            • 02-03-09
            • 816

            #6
            I have flirted with the PC, and have used up my £1000 allowance. But I still dont understand it fully, and luckily have managed to lose a good few £ in Betfair since flirting with the PC.

            IMO its akin to theft, immoral and it has made me hate betfair with a passion.

            I still have to use it a lot, but Matchbook could finally break betfair's grip on the exchange monopoly, and I would like nothing more than Betfair to go bust!!
            Comment
            • Hareeba!
              BARRELED IN @ SBR!
              • 07-01-06
              • 37194

              #7
              Originally posted by dealer wins
              I have flirted with the PC, and have used up my £1000 allowance. But I still dont understand it fully, and luckily have managed to lose a good few £ in Betfair since flirting with the PC.

              IMO its akin to theft, immoral and it has made me hate betfair with a passion.

              I still have to use it a lot, but Matchbook could finally break betfair's grip on the exchange monopoly, and I would like nothing more than Betfair to go bust!!
              Much as I don't agree with Betfair's PC policy, them going bust would be utterly disastrous for me. I don't see any horse racing at Matchbook? No other book comes close to Betfair on the horses.
              Also Matchbook don't offer near as many other sporting markets as Betfair.
              There is a relatively simply way to keep out of the way of the PC.
              Comment
              • faststeady
                SBR High Roller
                • 07-28-08
                • 196

                #8
                hareeba you should look into citi bet for horses , its where i play daily nowadays
                Comment
                • jjgold
                  SBR Aristocracy
                  • 07-20-05
                  • 388179

                  #9
                  it does not affect most players so do not worry about it
                  Comment
                  • Hareeba!
                    BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                    • 07-01-06
                    • 37194

                    #10
                    Originally posted by faststeady
                    hareeba you should look into citi bet for horses , its where i play daily nowadays
                    Yes, I've been looking at that for a while but for the time being I think I can do just as well at Betfair.
                    Comment
                    • Hareeba!
                      BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                      • 07-01-06
                      • 37194

                      #11
                      Originally posted by jjgold
                      it does not affect most players so do not worry about it
                      It probably affects more players than you'd think.

                      I know a pretty small time punter who's now subject to it.
                      Comment
                      • Optional
                        Administrator
                        • 06-10-10
                        • 61374

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Hareeba!
                        It probably affects more players than you'd think.

                        I know a pretty small time punter who's now subject to it.
                        Thats a surprise.

                        Is he just an amazing capper or got caught out with a streak or a few big wins? Or something else?
                        .
                        Comment
                        • Hareeba!
                          BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                          • 07-01-06
                          • 37194

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Optional
                          Thats a surprise.

                          Is he just an amazing capper or got caught out with a streak or a few big wins? Or something else?
                          No. He's smart at maths and mostly plays lays on the horses but for pretty small stakes but doesn't study form at all.
                          I'm not sure what the criteria for the PC is any more but believe it's not so much the total you've won but more to do with the relativity between the commission you've paid and your profits.
                          The guy actually is pleased to be on the PC. He reckons it enables him to win more for less risk!
                          I'm not smart enough to get my head around the maths of that though.
                          Comment
                          • Optional
                            Administrator
                            • 06-10-10
                            • 61374

                            #14
                            Good on him.

                            Would love to know his logic for that. Sounds like the sort of concept/info you could almost sell.
                            .
                            Comment
                            • thesquare
                              SBR Rookie
                              • 07-13-14
                              • 3

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Hareeba!
                              No. He's smart at maths and mostly plays lays on the horses but for pretty small stakes but doesn't study form at all.
                              I'm not sure what the criteria for the PC is any more but believe it's not so much the total you've won but more to do with the relativity between the commission you've paid and your profits.
                              The guy actually is pleased to be on the PC. He reckons it enables him to win more for less risk!

                              I'm not smart enough to get my head around the maths of that though.
                              At first glance the math looks pretty simple and I can't imagine how paying 60% tax on profits can be better than not paying it.

                              But if the key element here is risk/reward ratio then maybe he is tracking his numbers considering that if he loses a big bet he will be off the premium charge therefore not paying 60% of the already made profits for that month. This scenario is the only way I can see this can affect his risk/reward ratio, but as I mentioned, I don't know all the ins and outs of the PC
                              Comment
                              • caveira
                                SBR Wise Guy
                                • 08-07-11
                                • 532

                                #16
                                Betunfair, that's what they are...
                                Comment
                                • davidchong
                                  SBR MVP
                                  • 02-10-06
                                  • 1806

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by faststeady
                                  hareeba you should look into citi bet for horses , its where i play daily nowadays
                                  i need an account for citi any agent?
                                  Comment
                                  • Hareeba!
                                    BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                    • 07-01-06
                                    • 37194

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by caveira
                                    Betunfair, that's what they are...
                                    Not as unfair as all those "bookmakers" who won't let you on for a bet and close your account.
                                    Comment
                                    • jjgold
                                      SBR Aristocracy
                                      • 07-20-05
                                      • 388179

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Hareeba!
                                      It probably affects more players than you'd think.

                                      I know a pretty small time punter who's now subject to it.
                                      Is it based on win rate or percentages or amount won??
                                      Comment
                                      • Hareeba!
                                        BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                        • 07-01-06
                                        • 37194

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by jjgold
                                        Is it based on win rate or percentages or amount won??
                                        There are a number of criteria but this is probably the key one:

                                        a) Add up all the charges paid by a customer, over the lifetime of the account.
                                        b) Then add up the lifetime profit (if any on the same account)
                                        Is the result of a), above, less than 20% of the result for b), above?
                                        If it is, that means that the lifetime charges paid by that customer amount to less than 20% of his lifetime winnings. Therefore he is in the Premium Charge firing line.

                                        But then there is also the:
                                        NEW HIGHER BETFAIR PREMIUM CHARGE CRITERIA:
                                        Lifetime net profits exceed £250,000
                                        Lifetime commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
                                        Bet in more than 1,000 markets
                                        The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:
                                        Lifetime commission generated
                                        to gross profits ratio Applicable Premium Charge rate
                                        < 5% 60%
                                        5% – 10% 50%
                                        > 10% 40%
                                        Last edited by Hareeba!; 07-13-14, 11:48 PM.
                                        Comment
                                        • shaunovery
                                          SBR Posting Legend
                                          • 11-15-07
                                          • 18143

                                          #21
                                          Just started scalping on the horses doing very nicely at present 30-40 pound a day with hardly no risk just building the bankroll
                                          Comment
                                          • addictedto
                                            SBR MVP
                                            • 07-03-08
                                            • 1935

                                            #22
                                            Whoever has premium charge must be proud because it means he is a winner.
                                            Comment
                                            • Hareeba!
                                              BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                              • 07-01-06
                                              • 37194

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by addictedto
                                              Whoever has premium charge must be proud because it means he is a winner.
                                              a winner yes but also not smart enough to avoid being caught up in the thing
                                              Comment
                                              • TennisProFrance
                                                SBR Sharp
                                                • 10-09-11
                                                • 395

                                                #24
                                                Betfair are the biggest oysters in the industry cos of PC, I penetrating hate them. If you are at all successful on BF you will be hit by the PC, if your not then you are a fake or not successful.

                                                **********************************
                                                Last edited by Optional; 07-15-14, 07:24 AM.
                                                Comment
                                                • Hareeba!
                                                  BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                  • 07-01-06
                                                  • 37194

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by TennisProFrance
                                                  Betfair are the biggest oysters in the industry cos of PC, I penetrating hate them. If you are at all successful on BF you will be hit by the PC, if your not then you are a fake or not successful.

                                                  **********************************
                                                  Not necessarily true at all.
                                                  I do ok at Betfair but haven't been hit with the PC.
                                                  And I don't expect to be, largely due to the strategy I employ.
                                                  Comment
                                                  • shaunovery
                                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                                    • 11-15-07
                                                    • 18143

                                                    #26
                                                    Apparently you have to make 250k net before they hit you
                                                    Comment
                                                    • Hareeba!
                                                      BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                      • 07-01-06
                                                      • 37194

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by shaunovery
                                                      Apparently you have to make 250k net before they hit you
                                                      That was the case when the PC was first introduced but no longer as I understand it.
                                                      Comment
                                                      • jjgold
                                                        SBR Aristocracy
                                                        • 07-20-05
                                                        • 388179

                                                        #28
                                                        heck I wish I could win 250k and then get premium

                                                        I rather have premium than losing

                                                        anyway I wonder why they do this?? It does not make sense at an exchange
                                                        Comment
                                                        • Hareeba!
                                                          BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                          • 07-01-06
                                                          • 37194

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by jjgold
                                                          heck I wish I could win 250k and then get premium

                                                          I rather have premium than losing
                                                          You no longer have to have won that much to be hit with the PC.
                                                          My mate who actually likes the PC most certainly hasn't won anywhere near that.
                                                          Comment
                                                          • addictedto
                                                            SBR MVP
                                                            • 07-03-08
                                                            • 1935

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Hareeba!
                                                            Not necessarily true at all.
                                                            I do ok at Betfair but haven't been hit with the PC.
                                                            And I don't expect to be, largely due to the strategy I employ.
                                                            How do you avoid it? Because BF hates PC avoidance and closes accounts for that.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • Hareeba!
                                                              BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                              • 07-01-06
                                                              • 37194

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by addictedto
                                                              How do you avoid it? Because BF hates PC avoidance and closes accounts for that.
                                                              What they won't tolerate is collusion to avoid it.
                                                              Nothing wrong with simply adopting a strategy which ensures your profits/commission ratio doesn't trigger the PC.
                                                              A large volume of bets which perform pretty much close to break-even after commission will keep your ratio in check.
                                                              Comment
                                                              • TennisProFrance
                                                                SBR Sharp
                                                                • 10-09-11
                                                                • 395

                                                                #32
                                                                You can win 5k and be hit by PC, the 250k£ is for super PC which is 60%. You dont need to be a big winner to have pay the PC.

                                                                I'm not going into the details of how I avoid the PC, but it's costly. BF are fukkers and will trace you for PC avoidance and hit you with a big bill. Need to be smart to stay one step ahead, and its not easy. I would say, any serious player, who is semi-successful on BF will be effected within 1 year. If PC doesn't hit you then you I question your ROI.
                                                                Last edited by shari91; 07-18-14, 08:25 AM.
                                                                Comment
                                                                • TennisProFrance
                                                                  SBR Sharp
                                                                  • 10-09-11
                                                                  • 395

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Hareeba!
                                                                  What they won't tolerate is collusion to avoid it.
                                                                  Nothing wrong with simply adopting a strategy which ensures your profits/commission ratio doesn't trigger the PC.
                                                                  A large volume of bets which perform pretty much close to break-even after commission will keep your ratio in check.
                                                                  Whats the point of that. Sounds like you are hugely limiting yourself and your potential profits just to direct money to the BF fund.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • Hareeba!
                                                                    BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                                                    • 07-01-06
                                                                    • 37194

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by TennisProFrance
                                                                    Whats the point of that. Sounds like you are hugely limiting yourself and your potential profits just to direct money to the BF fund.
                                                                    huh?
                                                                    The point is that
                                                                    a) it keeps my commission/profits ratio high enough to stay out of the PC's net, and
                                                                    b) it earns me valuable loyalty points which reduces the commission I have to pay on my serious bets

                                                                    If it adds to Betfair's bottom line at no cost to me that's fine. We need Betfair to prosper so that we can do likewise.
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • Optional
                                                                      Administrator
                                                                      • 06-10-10
                                                                      • 61374

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by TennisProFrance
                                                                      You can win 5k and be hit by PC, the 250k£ is for super PC which is 60%. You dont need to be a big winner to have pay the PC.

                                                                      I'm not going into the details of how I avoid the PC, but it's costly. BF are fuckers and will trace you for PC avoidance and hit you with a big bill. Need to be smart to stay one step ahead, and its not easy. I would say, any serious player, who is semi-successful on BF will be effected within 1 year. If PC doesn't hit you then you I question your ROI.
                                                                      You need to do yourself a favor and listen to Hareeba on this one. He's giving good advice.
                                                                      .
                                                                      Comment
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