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So tell me mr. non voter, sir bitch a lot, how do the people in office get to be policy changers/ makers?Originally Posted by Ghenghis Kahn
Are they appointed by the govt/ corp machine or do us low life voting public go to the polls and pull levers?
We have been doing this for hundreds of years. It's your right, exercise it.
Doing nothing, gets nothing done and you will have to live by what we do, because you won't do anything.
I cant believe people think he should come home and "face the music." Ofcourse he doesn't want to come home. He will be put in prison, then have a trial in a kangaroo court where has already been found guilty. Then he'll be thrown in to a cell, never to be heard from again.
Americans really are dumb. At least all the ones who think Snowden is a traitor, criminal etc. You all need to wake the fukk up before it's too late. Your govt is pillaging your whole political, economic and social system and men like Snowden are trying to bring the proof to the dumb sheeple and they wanna crucify the guy. LOL idiots.
There's no one generation "ruining" the nation...it's a combination of a lot of factors from almost every group you can think of. More specifically, it's voters of every demographic who think that giving the government more money and more power to babysit us is preferable to personal responsibility...and the infighting that happens when one group calls another out on those actions while not realizing their hypocrisy for doing the same thing on issues they care about (for example, baby boomers bitching about welfare or student loan subsidies while supporting social security; or gen x'ers bitching about corporate subsidies but wanting the taxpayers to subsidize their student loans). Unfortunately, it's far easier to just point a finger and believe someone else is the problem than it is to realize you're just as big a part of it (not you personally, I don't know a thing about you aside from what you've shared here, which does say a bit about you most likely).
Voting is important for sure and the only way things are going to change, but just like going to college, people often make the assumption that showing up is mostly what matters. An uninformed vote supporting unsustainable budgeting, trampling on the bill of rights and general disdain for the basic freedom of choice (as about 97% of the votes usually are) is worse than no vote at all. In my opinion, the "get out the vote" movments are pointless without convincing voters they need to take time to care about what's going on first.
On the issue of 'stealing" secrets from the government, it's a matter of judgement and perspective...our forefathers committed "illegal", treasonous against Britain and fought for freedom and self-determination to found this country you're so concerned about "others" screwing up. America is supposed to stand for what's right over what's enshrined in law when the two don't agree, but for several generations, we've ignored that and preferred to play kings of the world with entirely predictable consequences. Say what you will about younger generations, but you can't lay that at their feet yet (although given time, they seem poised to mostly make the same choices).
Thanks Triple D for your level headed response w/o name calling.
I'm very proud of our youth today. Volunteering to go to two wars multiple times. I thank a serviceman
every chance I get. Fly my flag 24-7 for them.
I was called out on the generation thing and voiced my opinion. It irks me to no end when someone bitch's
about the govt and what they are doing if they don't exercise their right to vote or tell their representative
who represents THEM, for or against what they are doing on the hill. WE elect them.
If our captured boys in WW2 told the enemy what they knew, who knows what language we would be speaking.
The same with Snowden. He's a traitor and a coward. He's a traitor for going public on what we do. He's a coward
for telling what we do on TV in a different country. Be a man if you disagree with what we are doing and face the music.
He has free speech rkelley, How about the million of Americans he helped, how about exposing a corrupt government? You really think terrosists didnt already know this stuff? shut your Lying libby mouth.
First of all mr k is not what you would call a liberal, more a middle of the road guy. Second, liberals are probably more upset about this than conservatives. The only reason you see the conservatives bitching about this is because they can use it against Obama. If a R was president they would sing a different tune. Third free speech has limitations and one of them is leaking secrets. Fourth, how did he help millions of people? Fifth, no the terrorists did not know these things, how could they? Right now they are hiding in caves. And Mr K rarely lies I have never heard one from him. You have made a few mistakes kid.
Last edited by dante1; 06-25-13 at 08:19 PM.
I appreciate your time as well! I also agree whole-heartedly about voting... It might see pointless at times but there's not much grounds to complain if you can't be bothered to vote for your beliefs.
While I agree giving secrets to the enemy in time of war is betraying one's country, Snowden is doing no such thing. Seeking asylum is different from defecting, and in his case, necessarily had to be to a country the US want buddy-buddy with for fear of extradition. Besides, what exactly could he reveal to a foreign country anyways that they didn't already know? Domestic spying is a matter of public record, and China and Russia don't need any tips from us on the matter. As for facing the heat, I agree with Snowden's explanation on that as well: he can do more good outside of prison (where he can continue to raise awareness on the issue) than silenced inside one.
Hopefully this issue doesnt dissolve into liberal vs conservative garbage and lose focus on the issue like so much else. Also, if terrorists were unaware of this program because they were living in caves (they'd have to be to not know), it seems extremely unlikely that the program would work on the first place. This program want targeted at cave dwelling terrorists, but that doesn't mean it's any less of an infringement of civil liberties.
He hasn't hurt anyone. He's exposed illegal activity. We all suspected the government did this type of thing anyways.
Do you wear a helmet when you walk?
May your chains set lightly upon you Smoke.
On one hand: yes he's a traitor but on the other hand our glorious government has betrayed us long before Snowden did, so he did a huge favor for our limping Lady Liberty by waking up the sheeple.
A traitor is Janet Napolitano giving Muslims positions in Homeland security with TOP SECRET CLEARANCE. They are connected to the Muslim Brotherhood. That's treason! If you don't think their allegiance lies with Radical Islam then you are a complete moron.
Edward Snowden has blood on his hands
Anyone still thinks he's a hero?
trai·tor
ˈtrādər/
noun
- a person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc.
"they see me as a traitor, a sellout to the enemy"
He's the definition of a traitor if you ask me.
'Edward Snowden has blood on his hands': MI6 is forced to pull spies out of hostile countries after Russia and China decode a MILLION encrypted files leaked by the whistleblower
- Classified files could lead to identification of British and American spies
- Spy chiefs in Russia and China have cracked one million top-secret files
- Home Office official has accused Snowden of having 'blood on his hands'
- Security services have 'had difficulties tracking terrorists' since the leaks
By JAY AKBAR FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 00:47 GMT, 14 June 2015 | UPDATED: 01:08 GMT, 14 June 2015
MI6 has pulled its spies out of 'hostile countries' and America's intelligence agencies are on high alert after Russia and China cracked encrypted files leaked by fugitive whistleblower Edward Snowden.
The top-secret documents contain information that could lead to the identification of British and American spies, according to senior officials in Downing Street, the Home Office and the security services.
A senior Home Office official accused Snowden - the former National Security Agency (NSA) contractor responsible for the biggest confidential information leak in US history - of having 'blood on his hands' after they gained access to over one million files.
+7
Leaked: MI6 has pulled its spies out of 'hostile countries' after Russia and China cracked encrypted files leaked by whistleblower Edward Snowden (pictured) which could identify its agents
+7
Aides in British Prime Minister David Cameron's office have confirmed the top-secret material is now in the hands of spy chiefs in Moscow (President Vladimir Putin, left) and Beijing (President Xi Jinping, right)
Security services have reported increasing difficulties in tracking terrorists and dangerous criminals via email, chat rooms and social media since he exposed Western intelligence-gathering methods, the Sunday Times reports.
Now aides in British Prime Minister David Cameron's office have confirmed the top-secret material is now in the hands of spy chiefs in Moscow and Beijing.
A senior Downing Street source told the Sunday Times: 'It is the case that Russians and Chinese have information.
'It has meant agents have had to be moved and that knowledge of how we operate has stopped us getting vital information.'
A British intelligence source added: 'Snowden has done incalculable damage. In some cases the agencies have been forced to intervene and lift their agents from operations to prevent them from being identified and killed.
John Oliver grills Ed Snowden over leaked NSA documents
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nowden said he was protecting 'privacy and basic liberties' by leaking over one million confidential files and claimed America's NSA and British-based GCHQ (pictured) were spying on innocent people
+7
A senior Home Office official accused Snowden, a former contractor at the National Security Agency (NSA), of having 'blood on his hands' after Russia and China gained access to over one million files
+7
Security services have reported increasing difficulties in tracking since Snowden (pictured) exposed Western intelligence-gathering methods
'We know Russia and China have access to Snowden's material and will be going through it for years to come, searching for clues to identify potential targets.'
Former GCHQ director Sir David Omand believes the leak represents a 'huge strategic setback' which is 'harming to Britain, America and their NATO allies'.
Snowden has done incalculable damage. In some cases the agencies have been forced to intervene and lift their agents from operations to prevent them from being identified and killed
British intelligence source
He said the leak could spark a 'global intelligence arms race', adding: 'I have no doubt whatever that programmes are being launched and money is being spent to try and catch up.
'That's probably true not just of China and Russia but a number of other nations who have seen some of this material to be published.
'I am not at all surprised that people are being pulled back and operations where people are exposed are having to be shut down, at least for the moment.'
An official at British Prime Minister David Cameron's office has played down the threat posed to agents by saying there is 'no evidence of anyone being harmed'.
Snowden fled the United States for Moscow in 2013 after he released 1.7 million secret documents from Western intelligence agencies to the media - and has remained under the protection of President Vladimir Putin's regime ever since.
Snowden said he was protecting 'privacy and basic liberties' and claimed America's NSA and British-based GCHQ were carrying out massive surveillance programmes which target millions of innocent people.
Anonymous artists erect Snowden statue in New York park
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Edward Snowden is hailed as a hero by some but a British intelligence source has accused him of doing 'incalculable damage'
+7
David Miranda (left) the boyfriend of the Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald, was seized at Heathrow in 2013 in possession of 58,000 'highly classified' intelligence documents after visiting Snowden in Moscow
Another intelligence source in the United States said the damage done by Snowden was 'far greater than what has been admitted'.
It is unclear whether Snowden voluntarily handed over the secret documents to remain in Hong Kong and Moscow, or whether the countries stole his data.
But a senior Home Office source said: 'Why do you think Snowden ended up in Russia?
'Putin didn’t give him asylum for nothing. His documents were encrypted but they weren’t completely secure and we have now seen our agents and assets being targeted.'
David Miranda, the boyfriend of the Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald, was seized at Heathrow in 2013 in possession of 58,000 'highly classified' intelligence documents after visiting Snowden in Moscow.
During the ensuing court hearing Oliver Robbins, then deputy national security adviser in the Cabinet Office, said that the release of the information 'would do serious damage to UK national security, and ultimately put lives at risk'.
Eventually the High Court ruled there was 'compelling evidence' that stopping Miranda was 'imperative in the interests of national security' and publishing the documents would endanger lives
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3d0VtHxNu
Last edited by DwightShrute; 06-13-15 at 11:35 PM.
this is bullshit.
When NSA chief Gen. Keith Alexander spoke at a Las Vegas security conference in July, for instance, he referred to “54 different terrorist-related activities,” 42 of which were plots and 12 of which were cases in which individuals provided “material support” to terrorism.But the NSA has not always been so careful.
During Alexander’s speech in Las Vegas, a slide in an accompanying slideshow read simply “54 ATTACKS THWARTED.”
And in a recent letter to NSA employees, Alexander and John Inglis, the NSA’s deputy director, wrote that the agency has “contributed to keeping the U.S. and its allies safe from 54 terrorist plots.” (The letter was obtained by reporter Kevin Gosztola from a source with ties to the intelligence community. The NSA did not respond when asked to authenticate it.)
Asked for clarification of the surveillance programs' record, the NSA declined to comment.
Earlier this month, Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., pressed Alexander on the issue at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing.
“Would you agree that the 54 cases that keep getting cited by the administration were not all plots, and of the 54, only 13 had some nexus to the U.S.?” Leahy said at the hearing. “Would you agree with that, yes or no?”
“Yes,” Alexander replied, without elaborating.
It's impossible to assess the role NSA surveillance played in the 54 cases because, while the agency has provided a full list to Congress, it remains classified.
Officials have openly discussed only a few of the cases (see below), and the agency has identified only one — involving a San Diego man convicted of sending $8,500 to Somalia to support the militant group Al Shabab — in which NSA surveillance played a dominant role.
The surveillance programs at issue fall into two categories: The collection of metadata on all American phone calls under the Patriot Act, and the snooping of electronic communications targeted at foreigners under a 2007 surveillance law. Alexander has saidthat surveillance authorized by the latter law provided “the initial tip” in roughly half of the 54 cases. The NSA has not released examples of such cases.
After reading the full classified list, Leahy concluded the NSA’s surveillance has some value but still questioned the agency’s figures.
he's clearly a hero and anyone who can't see that is a moron.
WE HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. SNOWDEN INFORMED EVERYONE THAT THEIRS WAS BEING BROKEN, EVEN THOUGH THE RISK TO HIMSELF WAS SEVERE. HE'S THE DEFINITION OF A HERO.
Tough being a whistleblower. Often the result is hurt caused to other innocents.
It would be more justifiable if it appeared to have done any good.
actually the opposite is true.
I also felt the same as you when I first heard what he did. Until I read more about what he did.
this guy says it perfectly ...
Let Me Show You Why Edward Snowden is a Traitor and Not a Patriot
June 7, 2014 By Allen Clifton
Recently I wrote an article mocking Edward Snowden for claiming that the only reason he’s stuck in Russia is because the United States pulled his passport. I mocked that because Snowden would have to have been a complete buffoon to not know that after he publicly came out as the person who leaked these NSA documents, the first thing the United States was going to do was revoke his passport.
Did he really expect them to let him have an easy path to whatever non-extradition country he wanted?
And this guy claims he was a trained NSA spy?
If all the “spy training” you had was watching the movie Spies Like Us, you’d probably have enough common sense to know that once the United States government knew who it was that leaked these documents, one of the first things they were going to do was make it nearly impossible for that person to travel internationally.
But these people who call Snowden a “patriot” or a “hero,” believing that he should be completely free to come back to the United States without facing any kind of criminal charges, don’t seem to fully understand what they’re talking about.
For the sake of argument let’s say that everything Snowden stole pertaining to possible illegal activity by the NSA is 100% legit and every last bit of it is proven to be unconstitutional. Then yes, I would agree that he’s a patriot and a hero for risking everything to take that stand.
Except that’s not all he stole, nor is it all that he’s leaked.
Telling a newspaper in China that the United States government spied on Chinese computers isn’t “revealing unconstitutional surveillance of Americans” and leaking that classified information is illegal.
Writing an “open letter” trying to get Brazil to grant him political asylum by offering to help Brazil investigate United States surveillance, because Snowden leaked information about the U.S. spying on the Brazilian government, isn’t “standing up for the Constitutional rights of Americans.”
Saying that the NSA is “in bed” with Germany and other governments, working together on elaborate surveillance programs, isn’t “protecting the freedom of American citizens.”
Leaking documents showing that Sweden has helped the United States spy on Russia isn’t “being a patriot.”
Producing documents that reveal details on how the NSA gets some of its intelligence on the location of dangerous terrorists isn’t “being a passionate supporter of our Bill of Rights.”
Revealing that the United States uses cyber-attacks as an “intelligence weapon” for overseas targets has nothing to do with our Constitution.
Neither did producing documents that showed the British government set up surveillance of G20 delegates and phones during the G20 summit in 2009.
Last I checked, countries in Latin America weren’t protected by our Constitution either – yet Snowden still leaked information about how the NSA listens in on phone calls in many of those nations.
Can’t say I see any connection to our Constitution in Snowden’s leak of documents pertaining to al-Qaeda’s efforts to shoot down or hack our drones.
I’ll admit that I’m not a Constitutional scholar, but I’m pretty sure French citizens aren’t protected by our Constitution. Neither are Norwegians.
And I have no idea what Canada’s intelligence gathering has to do with American rights.
Though I’m fairly certain revealing that the NSA helped the Dutch spy on Somalia has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution.
I’ll go ahead and stop there. There were plenty of other examples (such as the United States government hacking the German chancellor’s phone and spying on the Mexican president) but I think I made my point. So even if you’re on the side of believing that he’s a “patriot” for revealing that the NSA has been unconstitutionally and illegally spying on Americans – that doesn’t recuse him of being a traitor. The fact is that he illegally stole this information and much of what he took, and subsequently leaked, has nothing to do with our Constitution or the rights of Americans.
Read more at: http://www.forwardprogressives.com/l...r-not-patriot/
Last edited by DwightShrute; 06-14-15 at 03:31 AM.
Should have kept his mouth shut imo. North Carolina no longer recognizes him due to the snitchyness of his upbringing. I would've loved to seen this nerd in action. We make Jordan and Step Curry's mom, not Kim Kardashian of the geek world. He is a true Patriot though for telling us shit we already knew.
Last edited by Ra77er; 06-14-15 at 03:27 AM.
I guess I'm a moron.
You work in that area of govt, you swore under oath, signed to protect and not reveal what you've learned.
When you go for a job. You sign a paper saying you won't divulge company secrets. If you are caught blabbing, you
will be prosecuted. The same for Snowden.
I guess a persons spoken word or written word doesn't mean shit to some of you.
Snowden is a coward in every sense of the word. He stole govt information and ran like the little bitch that he is.
The same as that little weasel that gave wikileaks all that govt information, only he got caught.
If you live here, where's your sense of patriotism?
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wow.
Morality isn't always black and white...if you sign a non-disclosure agreement and then discover Apple is using dead babies to power the iphone 6, is it more immoral to keep your word and not expose it, or to break your word and expose it?
Of course he ran...have you paid attention to how the federal government treats whistleblowers trying to expose federal corruption and illegal/unconstitutional activity? They're usually silenced and discredited, in stark contrast to the legal protections whistleblowers are supposed to be afforded. if you decide to do something like this, getting out of the country is a requirement.
There's no doubt he could be prosecuted under some laws, but protected under others...but staying in the US means he most likely would have been prosecuted and locked away without the protection he should have had, and the information wouldn't have gotten out. Bringing the unconstitutional actions of the federal government to the world's attention trumps the non-disclosure agreement morally in my mind, and the act of essentially throwing away his chance to live a normal life in pursuit of his convictions takes a lot of courage and commitment. Grumble all you want over him fleeing the country or not being able to be more selective with the information he took and exposed; that's a function of the US ignoring its own whistleblowing laws.
At the end of the day, the guy is far more of a patriot than the agencies he exposed, or the people who blindly vote away their civil rights because of the letter in front of a candidates name
When I first heard what he did, I admit I was also on the side of those who were calling him a hero. Until I read more about what he did. My emotions were replaced with logic and facts. And thus my opinion of what he is had to change. If they didn't change after that, then I would appear intellectually dishonest but more importantly, I would be dishonest with myself.Morality isn't always black and white...if you sign a non-disclosure agreement and then discover Apple is using dead babies to power the iphone 6, is it more immoral to keep your word and not expose it, or to break your word and expose it?
Of course he ran...have you paid attention to how the federal government treats whistleblowers trying to expose federal corruption and illegal/unconstitutional activity? They're usually silenced and discredited, in stark contrast to the legal protections whistleblowers are supposed to be afforded. if you decide to do something like this, getting out of the country is a requirement.
There's no doubt he could be prosecuted under some laws, but protected under others...but staying in the US means he most likely would have been prosecuted and locked away without the protection he should have had, and the information wouldn't have gotten out. Bringing the unconstitutional actions of the federal government to the world's attention trumps the non-disclosure agreement morally in my mind, and the act of essentially throwing away his chance to live a normal life in pursuit of his convictions takes a lot of courage and commitment. Grumble all you want over him fleeing the country or not being able to be more selective with the information he took and exposed; that's a function of the US ignoring its own whistleblowing laws.
At the end of the day, the guy is far more of a patriot than the agencies he exposed, or the people who blindly vote away their civil rights because of the letter in front of a candidates name
There's a huge difference between a whistleblower and a traitor.
Post #54 article says it perfect, especially this ...
For the sake of argument let’s say that everything Snowden stole pertaining to possible illegal activity by the NSA is 100% legit and every last bit of it is proven to be unconstitutional. Then yes, I would agree that he’s a patriot and a hero for risking everything to take that stand.
Except that’s not all he stole, nor is it all that he’s leaked.
Last edited by DwightShrute; 06-14-15 at 02:10 PM.
Again, morality not black and white; there are two separate concepts here:
1) It takes a tremendous amount of courage to do what he did in pursuit of his beliefs. Regardless of what percentage of it you agree with, there's no denying this fact.
2) The percentage of what he released which is considered unconstitutional is different for many people, but without a doubt, some of what he exposed isn't considered unconstitutional. If his goal was to reveal to an often-apathetic and ignorant public what was going on, should he have called it quits because it might cause some inconvenience to "legit" espionage programs and knowledge? I'd say he did the best he could to ensure the US' "legitimate" activities weren't compromised, but again, blaming him for not being more selective is misplacing the blame, when it should fall upon the federal governments tendency to prosecute whistleblowers.
The facts seem to support the case that he pursued his convictions at great personal risk and virtually no risk to the country; that's certainly not what I'd consider a traitor, particularly when it was done to expose what I'd consider treason against the principles we're supposed to be founded upon (often paid lip service, but ignored in the quest for some false security).
I guess it really depends.
Does it take courage to put on a mask and go into a bank with a loaded gun and rob it? Probably takes a tremendous amount. Regardless of what percentage of it you agree with (in any), there is no denying the fact it takes balls. Maybe it's just for the money? Maybe it's because that particular bank is known for corruption? The question is ...... do you think it's right?
More facts ... there were (and are still today) thousands of employees similar to Snowden who never betrayed (and never will) their country by knowingly releasing classified material about what his country was doing to other countries. These people are called Patriots or Loyalists.
Exactly...probably takes courage to do it, and there's no denying it. Whether it qualifies as heroic is down to whether or not it's perceived as right.
The people who didn't expose the corruption and violations of rights conducted by these agencies aren't patriots; they're people who either decided to take the easy route and keep their head down (allowing the violations to continue), or who believed those violations were the right thing to do...this makes them either cowardly enablers or willing conspirators of the unconstitutional acts. I understand there are many reasons to not expose the agencies' actions (people looking out for their own security/family security instead of the country's, etc) and I'm personally sympathetic to those reasons. But for the US, patriotism should be construed to mean loyalty to our constitutional principles instead of blindly to an administration; otherwise they're just as "patriotic" as Germans carrying out the genocidal orders of the administration.
just the act of informing the public that they no longer have a right to privacy is good. the people around here who probably call themselves conservatives, wrap themselves in the constitution when it comes to gun, don't seem to give a shit that it's been ripped in half, all because they're scared of "dem muslims".
http://www.forwardprogressives.com/l...r-not-patriot/
dwight- this guys argument is retarded.
first off- who made the argument earlier ITT that snowden was no hero because he told americans what they already know?
well... if that's true- this is the same thing- foreign governments already knew we were spying on them. secondly- he never gave them classified information. him 'telling' brazil or china that we are spying on them is of no consequence.
bull shit. it's not like he just handed the shit over to wikileaks. he released it responsibly and americans have a right to know their government is spying on them. if some allies learned that we are spying on them too- i'm not overly concerned.So even if you’re on the side of believing that he’s a “patriot” for revealing that the NSA has been unconstitutionally and illegally spying on Americans – that doesn’t recuse him of being a traitor. The fact is that he illegally stole this information and much of what he took, and subsequently leaked, has nothing to do with our Constitution or the rights of Americans.
if most of what he released had to do with us spying on others- why did were most of the guardian stories about bulk collection, prism, etc.?
Snowden would make a good President !!
Said my thoughts on this and will not be swayed. As will my opposites. Carry on gentlemen.
hilarious. most of the "he's a traitor" crowds are the same people who are "concerned with gov overreach", call social security a "socialist scheme", etc.
remember that thread that questioned collective IQ of sbr? well... i think this thread is proving that most members can't crack 95.
spoken like a true moron, and you're always proud of it tooSaid my thoughts on this and will not be swayed. As will my opposites. Carry on gentlemen.
scumbag, as the resident IQ leader and all-around class act, it's always nice to read your wonderful thoughtful intelligent posts. Keep up the good work.
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Dwight is poster of 2016. He has my vote.
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