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Close game John!
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This Section #9 is fantastic! This could be a Finals Section right here. This should be on Pay Per View!
Ivan Gutorov 2 2 1.00 mmariomm 2 2 1.00 Toptal 0 0 0.00
Mario and Ivan are the #4 and #5 in the image below. They split their games. These Toptal games are going to be HUGE now. I haven't yet told you who #1 is, but he's in this Tournament. These rankings are at least a few weeks old now I think but it's from an on going series of Othello Tournaments at a site called Vint that works in coordination with World Othello. I think there are 94 players in these Tournaments. I've chatted with a couple of different people associated with Vint and they seem interested in possibly getting Hexversi but they are unsure about the copyright and what not.
Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 01-22-22, 12:30 AM.Comment -
Not sure if you guys have ever seen this. Here's how to find the entire Tournament history of Hexversi. Just click on the link below and find Hexversi for which game you would like to see and click submit.
https://www.itsyourturn.com/pp?tourn_champ
Notice all the Tournaments Toptal won. Here's the thing... I think he's the dog here in Section #9. I'm still picking Mario but I will be rooting for Toptal because I know I can beat him more times than not. I'm thinking Mario likely sweeps Toptal but maybe Toptal can split with Ivan. I guess we'll see. I'm hoping Toptal can play his best here and pulls off what I would consider to be some upsets.
Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 01-21-22, 10:30 PM.Comment -
Now that's a sweep!!Comment -
Toptal must be wondering what the heck happened here? He missed the last Tournament due to a vacation but he won the Tournament before that with 40 players before these Othello guys showed up. And now he might go winless in the 1st Round. Ivan is going to sweep Toptal for sure so he's advancing. I don't think it's looking great here for Toptal in these other games against Mario but I'm hoping he can pull a win in one of these.
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I may never be any good at Hexversi by I like to play and now that I have a couple of games under my belt im starting to see the board, that may not make sense to yall but it makes a big difference for me!! Good LuckNot sure if you guys have ever seen this. Here's how to find the entire Tournament history of Hexversi. Just click on the link below and find Hexversi for which game you would like to see and click submit.
https://www.itsyourturn.com/pp?tourn_champ
Notice all the Tournaments Toptal won. Here's the thing... I think he's the dog here in Section #9. I'm still picking Mario but I will be rooting for Toptal because I know I can beat him more times than not. I'm thinking Mario likely sweeps Toptal but maybe Toptal can split with Ivan. I guess we'll see. I'm hoping Toptal can play his best here and pulls off what I would consider to be some upsets.
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I will never advance to a second round again with all these pros lolComment -
Well, as far as Toptal goes... he plays Live Othello too and he's from Spain and so is Mario so I'm nearly certain they have played each other and they are probably pals. I can't remember Toptal's real name to look up his stats on World Othello but I'm pretty sure he's ranked somewhere but not as high as Mario. But maybe Toptal is wondering..."I bet that damn Holden2341 told Mario and Ivan about this game! That bastard!"
As far as you guys go... let's consider this... blanko already has a draw with Mario and the other game was competitive. I'm 4-2 vs Mario. I'm 8-2(although only 2-2 in the last 4 games) vs Ivan. Daniel has beaten me twice. blanko will undoubtedly beat me someday. Moral of the story... you guys can definitely compete with the best of them.
I'll try to help point out some of your mistakes in this Tournament if you guys are interested just let me know. Or if you are curious about a particular move after the game is over feel free to ask.
Also... Jackpot... If you have any questions feel free to ask. I see you got a corner in your game vs Frank. Well done. Once you get a corner it is yours to keep because it cannot be flipped. Just always keep in mind, everything we do is about move count. We we want to conserve our move count as much as we possibly can. And we don't want to create new moves for our opponent if we don't have to. Flipping outside pieces is almost NEVER a good idea. If you are flipping outside pieces it ALMOST ALWAYS means you are making a terrible move. The reason for this is because it means you are creating a bunch of new moves for your opponent.
Now that you have a corner, all you have to ask yourself is, what moves are creating the fewest new moves for your opponent. And if they are new moves, are they good ones? If you are not creating any, or new good moves for your opponent, then that means you are likely making a good move.
I was going to tell you as well Jackpot... you can add §irontown (Happy New Year) to the list of players you could probably beat on your first game.Comment -
I can see now the value in "The Island in the Water" The part about ripping thru the middle of your opponents pieces how it gives you more options especially if they have a row that has none of your pieces in it and you break it up!Comment -
I just looked in on your game vs Frank. Move #27 Green to move. Green has exactly 1 option and 1 option only. So, you basically have the tap out here because now Green will be out of moves/options entirely after this next move. So what does this mean? It means from here on out you get to dictate the game entirely. You get to choose what moves you give Green for the remainder of the game, if you play it correctly. You've won the game here. Now you just have to decide which moves to give to Green. I won't give away too much here, I will let you see how you do on your own. But after this game, I will tell you how to finish once you get to this position. But this is what we strive for in every single game. We strive for the tap out(we run our opponent down to ZERO options). Because after that, we get to dictate the game entirely and winning is easy. Nice work here!
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Thanks John I finished that game with Frank its my first win
!! Thanks for all your help!!! I've been looking at at some of your matches and the other guys you have talked about. I going to keep playing and maybe get better!! The pointers that you have given in this thread, have help a lot!!
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Well done! Your finishing skills looked great once you got a corner. Once you get a corner... you just want to work FROM the corner just like you did, giving your opponent as few new moves as possible. You've really been thrown to the wolves here in most of your games, playing all of these really good players like WHUFC, FGYTPeti, blanko, Ryan, Andy, and alleyH. All of these guys are good.Thanks John I finished that game with Frank its my first win!! Thanks for all your help!!! I've been looking at at some of your matches and the other guys you have talked about. I going to keep playing and maybe get better!! The pointers that you have given in this thread, have help a lot!!
For your challenges I recommend to keep challenging the players I recommend from post #32. I'll comb through a few of your games a bit later and try to point out some things that I think could be helpful. Congrats on your first win!
Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 01-30-22, 10:38 AM.Comment -
Congrats jackpot! The first win is the toughest!
You got a win within 20 days of starting the game. I checked, and it took me more than twice as long to get my first real win (not counting when my opponent timed out)Comment -
Hey John I went to the game that you and Daniel are playing where you are green. I Went back to the start and went thru all plays when it was Danail move I just played it, then I would try and guess what move you would make next for the most part I could guess correct Im curious how that will work as the game progresses. Im going to go thru the whole game when you do finishComment -
That's a really great way to learn. I encourage new players to do that. When I was first really getting into Reversi 6x6 in 2009 when I was on a mission to get really good at that game, the first thing I did was rip through a bunch of Came Dude's games who ruled over 6x6 for nearly a decade on this site. Eventually I learned to play like him and I think he influenced my Hexversi style a bit as well. I never could get him to play Hexversi, I think he would have been great at it.
Anyway, I wanted to show you something here in your game vs blanko. The hardest thing about Hexversi is learning how to play the sides correctly. Almost nobody gets it right 100% of the time, not even me. So, I'll try to teach you this first lesson here. Everything we do is to try to find moves everywhere we can. So, we are always trying to Gain Tempo. If we play the sides correctly we should never lose tempo on the sides, or very seldom at least. If your opponents play the sides incorrectly, you can exploit their incorrect side-play and Gain Tempo. Here is how blanko Gained Tempo on your incorrect side-play and forced you into an Unbalanced Edge.
In the image below you played a10. The reason this is a bad move is because it allows Purple to... what I call... "run you up on the wall and finish with a sweep" when this happens. Purple will Gain Tempo. Every single time your opponent Gains Tempo, it's essentially like they just found/created a move, and now you have to act again. Also, when your opponent runs you up on the wall and finishes with a sweep like that, it also usually leaves you with an Unbalanced Edge. I'll get into that a bit later. But an Unbalanced Edge or UE for short, is when a player has 3 pieces on a side, but neither corner. Just as you do on the SW side in the 3rd image. Generally, UE's are very bad to have because they are easily exploitable.
So, one of the biggest factors in Hexversi is how well you can play the sides. If you are constantly a player that ends up with a lot of UE's, it ALMOST ALWAYS means you are playing the sides incorrectly.
Okay so, look in the image above, the reason why this is a bad play is because it allows Purple to play a9(run you up on the wall), which forces you to protect that Western corner. So you don't have a choice but to play a8. So, after you play a8 now Purple will play b8(finish with the sweep) which allows Purple to Gain Tempo and Green will have to act again. I hope this is making sense a little.
Okay... so now after Purple plays b8 and Gains Tempo, now Green is left with an Unbalanced Edge on that SW side. So, the reason why it's so bad to have an UE is because now if Purple wanted to, Purple couple sacrifice that SW corner on purpose and wedge in their piece at a7 and get their own corner at a11.
My style of play is pretty basic. I mostly just exploit poor side-play. Usually one bad play on the side is all it takes to win just about any game.
I'll try to teach you the "run them up on the wall and finish with the sweep" move over the next few weeks. But here's the general rule, if your opponent can "run you up on the wall, and finish with a sweep, just like in your game above, it ALMOST ALWAYS means you are playing the side incorrectly.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Here's a link to the game, starting from the original position.
See how Purple did that combination of moves #10 and #11 and forced Green into that UE? That's a staple of our strategy. You want to be on a lookout for those types of plays ALL THE TIME. We want to be exploiting bad side-play IMMEDIATELY just like blanko did in this game.
I have a really hard time teaching my brother that you have to JUMP on poor side-play IMMEDIATELY like that, because often times you only get one chance to exploit it.
Oh... btw... I use the terms... wall/side/edge all interchangeably. The Othello guys all say Edge. I usually say Side, but sometimes I say wall as well... it's all the same. Some of these terms are probably new to Daniel and blanko. They learned quite a bit quicker than my brother so I had to come up with some terminology to be a bit more specific to teach him.
Most of these learning tools are stuff I made up specifically for Hexversi... but much of the theory I learned from reading "A Minute to Learn... A Lifetime to Master...." written by Brian Rose in 2005 who was World Othello Champion in 2001. But, I haven't read it since 2006 so, I forget most of the terminology. It's written specifically for Othello though. I read it 1 year before Hexversi ever came out though.
Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 01-30-22, 11:45 PM.Comment -
In your match I was looking at you had not got to playing the sides yet!! I figured that would bring on more understanding of the game I've been stuck on the sides like you said, in most if not all of my tournament games!! This is something I will start working on!! Thanks for all your helpThat's a really great way to learn. I encourage new players to do that. When I was first really getting into Reversi 6x6 in 2009 when I was on a mission to get really good at that game, the first thing I did was rip through a bunch of Came Dude's games who ruled over 6x6 for nearly a decade on this site. Eventually I learned to play like him and I think he influenced my Hexversi style a bit as well. I never could get him to play Hexversi, I think he would have been great at it.
Anyway, I wanted to show you something here in your game vs blanko. The hardest thing about Hexversi is learning how to play the sides correctly. Almost nobody gets it right 100% of the time, not even me. So, I'll try to teach you this first lesson here. Everything we do is to try to find moves everywhere we can. So, we are always trying to Gain Tempo. If we play the sides correctly we should never lose tempo on the sides, or very seldom at least. If your opponents play the sides incorrectly, you can exploit their incorrect side-play and Gain Tempo. Here is how blanko Gained Tempo on your incorrect side-play and forced you into an Unbalanced Edge.
In the image below you played a10. The reason this is a bad move is because it allows Purple to... what I call... "run you up on the wall and finish with a sweep" when this happens. Purple will Gain Tempo. Every single time your opponent Gains Tempo, it's essentially like they just found/created a move. Also, when your opponent runs you up on the wall and finishes with a sweep like that, it also usually leaves you with an Unbalanced Edge. I'll get into that a bit later. But an Unbalanced Edge or UE for for short, is when a player has 3 pieces on a side, but neither corner. Just as you do on the SW side in the 3rd image. Generally, UE's are very bad to have because they are easily exploitable.
So, one of the biggest factors in Hexversi is how well you can play the sides. If you are constantly a player that ends up with a lot of UE's, it ALMOST ALWAYS means you are playing the sides incorrectly.
Okay so, look in the image above, the reason why this is a bad play is because it allows Purple to play a9(run you up on the wall), which forces you to protect that Western corner. So you don't have a choice but to play a8. So, after you play a8 now Purple will play b8(finish with the sweep) which allows Purple to Gain Tempo and Green will have to act again. I hope this is making sense a little.
Okay... so now after Purple plays b8 and Gains Tempo, now Green is left with an Unbalanced Edge on that SW side. So, the reason why it's so bad to have an UE is because now if Purple wanted to, Purple couple sacrifice that SW corner on purpose and wedge in their piece at a7 and get their own corner at a11.
My style of play is pretty basic. I mostly just exploit poor side-play. Usually one bad play on the side is all it takes to win just about any game.
I'll try to teach you the "run them up on the wall and finish with the sweep" move over the next few weeks. But here's the general rule, if your opponent can "run you up on the wall, and finish with a sweep, just like in your game above, it ALMOST ALWAYS means you are playing the side incorrectly.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Here's a link to the game, starting from the original position.
See how Purple did that combination of moves #10 and #11 and forced Green into that UE? That's a staple of our strategy. You want to be on a lookout for those types of plays ALL THE TIME. We want to be exploiting bad side-play IMMEDIATELY just like blanko did in this game.
I have a really hard time teaching my brother that you have to JUMP on poor side-play IMMEDIATELY like that, because often times you only get one chance to exploit it.
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No problem. Yeah, I find that most inexperienced players play the sides too early. I don't seek out nor avoid playing the sides. The most important thing is to play them correctly. Generally, there 4 ways to play the sides before a corner is captured. They are... the Full 4/Balanced Edge, meaning all 4 hexes between the corners are occupied by the same player. The Closed 2, meaning the 2 hexes in the middle are occupied by the same player but the hexes near both corners are empty. blanko is really good with these. The Open 2, meaning the 2 hexes near both corners are occupied by the same player but the 2 hexes in the middle are empty. All 3 of these are acceptable ways of playing a side. The other way is the Unbalanced Edge. This is the one we want to avoid most of the time. There are exceptions to the rule, such as an Unbalanced 6 as well as other exceptions but I will get into that once you get a little more experience.
Also, sharing a side is also acceptable as well. The rule that I generally go by is, if your opponent takes a side before you and it's POSSIBLE for you to share the side with them, then you should ALMOST ALWAYS share it with them.
I realize this is already a lot of shit to remember... but hopefully it will start to make sense over the next few weeks.Comment -
I wanted to show you guys this. This guy from Facebook is working on a Hexversi type webpage where you can play vs a PCU or play yourself. I think he's still working on it. There's a couple of different links. I can't get the 2nd link to work for some reason even though he is telling me to use that one and it's supposed to be the better one. Maybe you guys can figure out what why it's not working. Anyway... here's the links.
Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 02-02-22, 12:39 PM.Comment -
Excellent. I'll try to keep pointing out mistakes on the sides and you should continue to improve. The problem most players have is, they have no idea they are making mistakes to begin with so it's nearly impossible for them to improve.
Here's one below that you have probably already figured out but I will point it out anyway just to be on the safe side. When playing the sides, you never want to leave one space gaps for your opponent because that allows your opponent to Wedge. So, in the image below once you played g1 it allowed Purple to Wedge in with h1. Once Purple has a piece at h1, this allows Purple to get the SE corner with f1. And from here, Purple can just work from the SE corner and the game is essentially over.
Here's a link from that game btw:
Here's another useful tip that the majority of the players in the Ladder struggle with. I don't think I taught blanko and Daniel this rule quite like this but they seem to understand it better than my brother so I didn't have to teach them this rule like this. Here's the rule, if you are the first player to put a piece on a side, make sure you are not touching one of your own pieces when you are doing so.
There are exceptions to this rule, but they are rare. One of the exceptions is if you KNOW FOR SURE you can get a Closed 2. Don't worry, I will go over all of this more later once you get more experience. The reason why you don't want to be touching one of your own pieces if you are the first player to put a piece on a side is, it's because it makes you extremely vulnerable to being forced into an Unbalanced Edge.Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 02-03-22, 11:02 AM.Comment -
I wanted to show you an example of this. This is a game below between myself and Mr. Bruno. Mr. Bruno is a pretty good player but he doesn't know how to play the sides correctly just like many of the players in the Ladder. Look at the image below. I am Green and Bruno is Purple. Purple is about to play k4. Notice how when Purple plays k4 they are touching one of their own pieces when they put their own piece on the board. This ALMOST ALWAYS means they are playing the side incorrectly. The reason for this is because it makes them ripe for being turned into an Unbalanced Edge.
Okay, so now let's take a look at the next image after Purple has played k4. So now after Purple has made a mistake, Green can exploit that mistake by "running them up on the wall" by playing k3. This will force Purple to make an immediate decision. If Purple should choose to take the side by playing k2(he did), then Green can reply by playing j3(finish with the Sweep). Finishing with the Sweep is where Green will Gain Tempo, and now Purple will not only have an Unbalanced Edge on that NE side, but it is now Purple's turn to move again because Green just Gained Tempo.
Here's what the board looked like after the entire exchange.
Also, if Purple should choose to NOT take k2, Green can take that NE side for ourselves. Even though we will have an Unbalanced Edge, it's not so bad because we will have Gained 2 Tempo and we will have an Unbalanced 6 which can only be exploited from one angle, so it's not so bad.
Exploiting poor side-play is really the staple of my strategy. Most of the time we really want to jump on it IMMEDIATELY. We just have to make sure we can "finish with a sweep" and make sure we can do everything cleanly. Let me know if you have any questions. Once you have a little more experience everything will start to make a lot more sense. I am just trying to prevent you from picking up bad habits.
Here's a link to the game, starting from the initial position.
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Without you telling me that green is in better shape on the NE side I would think purple was in better shape there. It looks like if green makes any play on the NW side purple can gain a conner. With more experience it will come more clear. Im going back in this thread and reading all your teaching points again now that I can understand a little better what is going on!! AS always thank you for all the helpComment -
No problem. Once you learn how to force players into Unbalanced Edges and learn how to exploit them, you should be able to beat quite a few players in the Ladder. You just have get used to knowing how to win and such.
Here's my Section 2 below with Daniel as well as my brother alleyH.
If you click on Daniel's games in progress with my games and my brothers games.... you will notice a lot of shared sides. What this usually means is... it means the sides are being played correctly. If you see a lot of Unbalanced Edges in a game, it usually means(not always, but usually) means someone played a side incorrectly. In close games, or any games for that matter... whoever played the sides the best... is usually going to win the game.§Holden2341 8 4 2.00 §alleyH 4 4 1.00 DanielEspinosa 0 0 0.00 §Stephen
So... we want to make sure that we are always playing the sides correctly and try to avoid getting any Unbalanced Edges if we can(there are some exceptions, like if we can Gain 2 Tempo). And we always want to exploit our opponents mistakes when they play a side incorrectly. All of this will make more sense once you get a little more experience.Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 02-04-22, 01:57 PM.Comment -
Wow, it looks to me like Toptal is gonna player spoiler in section 9 and knock mario out of the first roundComment -
Yeah... this game above is close! Ivan has been sending me PM's on Facebook about this game with position analysis. It's rather mind boggling. He's rooting for Mario. I'm rooting for Toptal myself... I mostly just want to see a new champ.... hopefully me!
Mario just beat me in a recent Ladder game... I think I had him beat and then I made a blunder and went on tilt. I see you are definitely going to beat Ryan in at least 1 of your games so you will be advancing for sure. Congrats!
Anything could happen in this Tourney... I think shimgar is likely the favorite but I think I am capable of beating him and I know you are capable of beating me so... anything could happen. There are likely 8 of us or so that still have a shot at winning this thing. And there's still a chance that both Daniel and myself could both advance if we split our games. The next round will be stacked!
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I looked at all the pieces mario should be able to get after he plays e2 and I believe it still won't be enough. Was guesstimating though and not entirely sure how much Toptal's play order influences the outcome so I could be wrong
Thanks! Not sure about the other game but I'll do my best to go for the knockout punch. Even though it's better for your predictions than mine(I was pleasantly surprised you picked me btw)
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It was hard for me to tell as well, but now I can see that Mario is going to win for sure. This second round is going to be brutal! Even without Toptal and Ryan... congrats on sweeping Ryan btw... at least it looks as if you will be sweeping him now.I looked at all the pieces mario should be able to get after he plays e2 and I believe it still won't be enough. Was guesstimating though and not entirely sure how much Toptal's play order influences the outcome so I could be wrong
Thanks! Not sure about the other game but I'll do my best to go for the knockout punch. Even though it's better for your predictions than mine(I was pleasantly surprised you picked me btw)Comment -
Jackpot, I see that osprey timed-out their game... that's a pity, and you are playing Freddo now. I want point out a couple of things here in your game vs Freddo.
#1. Move #14 You moved into an X-Hex(j6). Until you get more experience you should avoid moving into X-hexes until you have absolutely have no other place to move. The X-hexes in the image below are. f10, j6, j2, f2, b6, and b10. The reason why you want to avoid X-hexes(especially early on) are because they make you EXTREMELY vulnerable to giving up a corner. Fortunately for you, Freddo is terrible and didn't take advantage of the situation.
#2 Move #21. You left a 1 space gap on the side between your own pieces. This is a BIG NO NO. The reason why this is so terrible is because it allows your opponent to Wedge in between your pieces. Once Green gets access to a8 in the image below, then Green can get the SW corner by playing a6. From there, Green can work from their corner.
You should be able to still win this game. These are very common rookie mistakes. My brother was making these types of mistakes for several months so... don't feel bad about these mistakes. I just want to make you aware of them.
Last edited by JohnGalt2341; 02-06-22, 12:59 PM.Comment -
You're right!! I just played it out on my board. Had Toptal played j2 for #37 I think Mario's best choice would have been to take that Eastern corner with k1 because that would give him a chance to get e6 and e7 because if doesn't get e6 and e7 I don't think he will have enough pieces. So here is how I played it.
#37 .... Pj2
#38 Gk1 Pk2
#39 Gf1 Pb6
#40 Ge2 Pf2
#41 Ga6 pass
#42 Ga11
Final Green 43 Purple 47.
I'm going to use this as a Hexversi Daily Challenge on Facebook once this game is over. I'll probably play out the other scenario for Green later. But... I do believe you are correct here.
If Mario knocks out either you are myself... I'm going to be pissed now!! However if he knocks out shimgar... I will gladly Thank Toptal for not getting this right.
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John, since you've been teaching unbalanced edge concepts again lately to help jackpot, I've been thinking about something I wanted to ask you
For reference, the above game. I'm curious about purple move #6, d3. This is the sort of move I'm very used to doing as it usually seems to work out for me against the majority of opponents. My reasoning is that, because I don't have a piece in e3, I can do this and even if I end up making an unbalanced edge, the opponent doesn't have a guaranteed wedge spot to take advantage of it. However, what I've noticed playing against you is that you seem to always exploit me in some way when I try this
What I'm wondering: is that move by me an objective mistake and Toptal just failed to take advantage of it (as well as most other players)? Not necessarily right away but on a later move? And if you look at later moves, can you see a clear point where you would've been able to exploit me taking that edge? Or any other insight you could give about this sort of move would be usefulLast edited by blankoblanco; 02-13-22, 08:30 AM.Comment
