Should SBR Reduce Rollover??

[bonzaii]

Its bad enough you got to play an hour + if you wanna win 300 points but than you got to play for hours and hours if you want to ever see any of those peanuts. By the time your done cooking them, they are already roasted or nawed down. Either that or go back to the the original payouts of 900 for first, 600 second, 400 third...


Yeah Yeah yeah dont play if you don't want scraps. blah blah blah . Just gonna lose most points in sportsbook anyway

[bobbywaves]

Its bad enough you got to play an hour + if you wanna win 300 points but than you got to play for hours and hours if you want to ever see any of those peanuts. By the time your done cooking them, they are already roasted or nawed down. Either that or go back to the the original payouts of 900 for first, 600 second, 400 third...


Yeah Yeah yeah dont play if you don't want scraps. blah blah blah . Just gonna lose most points in sportsbook anyway

This is why flipping should be allowed for those people who value time.

Only no life losers want to spend hours rolling over "peanut points."

[cincinnatikid513]

too bad we can't get free plays for the SBR Sportsbook instead

[mpaschal34]

Guess I’m out of the loop....what is the old structure? Has rake been increased?

[bobbywaves]

Guess I’m out of the loop....what is the old structure? Has rake been increased?

By old structure, he meant original payouts.

Either that or go back to the the original payouts of 900 for first, 600 second, 400 third...

Don't recall ever seeing 900 for 1st, I only remember 600 for 1st....The good ole days.

[Ballerholic]

Reduce rake and go back to old structure

[bonzaii]

too bad we can't get free plays for the SBR Sportsbook instead

We would be much better off have that than having this bs rollover that can only be cleared at certain times because no one plays ring games on here.

[bonzaii]

By old structure, he meant original payouts.

Don't recall ever seeing 900 for 1st, I only remember 600 for 1st....The good ole days.

Yup meant payouts. 600 or 900 whatever it was

[bonzaii]

Not surprising there are at least 6 cheek spreaders on here. Maybe they can all schedule a session together and roll around and sweat away those points.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Not surprising there are at least 6 cheek spreaders on here. Maybe they can all schedule a session together and roll around and sweat away those points.

I'm one of those 6; reduced rollover, changing to freeplays or allowing flipping runs counter to SBR's purpose for awarding poker points to drive ring game traffic. If those things were changed, ring game action would be even worse....how long do you think SBR would continue to give away free points if people just ran off with them?

Current rollover requirements aren't that bad if playing at the right stakes. Just jump on a table while playing a daily and they'll get done eventually. It might not be the same day, but at the end of the day, it's free poker; what more can you reasonably ask for?

[EasyCover]

Every time I go in there no one is playing. I can't roll them over.

[JoeCool20]

Yes reduce the ridiculous rollover! I also have another question. Why the hell is there even a rollover anyway?

I've said this several times, SOMEBODY is going to get the points!! Because somebody loses them,but somebody

ELSE wins them! It'snot like a casino where SBR gets the points when somebody loses!

Why have ANY rollover when somebody is going to get the points in the end anyway! Answer?

[JoeCool20]

how long do you think SBR would continue to give away free points if people just ran off with them?

OK there is the question RIGHT THERE! But the points aren't getting "retired" or given back to SBR

Like casino losses! Like I just posted, SOMEBODY is winning the points into their account and then somebody

does eventually "run off" with them!! So once again the question:

Why have ANY rollover at all when somebody is going to get the points in the end anyway! Answer?

[konck]

Come on man
The toilet is flushing be real
the prizes are getting fewer
the payoffs are getting smaller
more an more ghost acct keep winning playing like fools
The hand writing is on the wall
They even changed BTP so they can dominate the prize pool ....its over the revenue is gone

[Optional]

I'm one of those 6; reduced rollover, changing to freeplays or allowing flipping runs counter to SBR's purpose for awarding poker points to drive ring game traffic. If those things were changed, ring game action would be even worse....how long do you think SBR would continue to give away free points if people just ran off with them?

Current rollover requirements aren't that bad if playing at the right stakes. Just jump on a table while playing a daily and they'll get done eventually. It might not be the same day, but at the end of the day, it's free poker; what more can you reasonably ask for?

All the people like Bobbywaves who want to take as much as possible out of poker whilst having to put as little as possible back in have turned poker into a points leak that isn't sustainable.

Hopefully they disappear when rake or rollover is inevitably increased.

Trade off would hopefully be more points prizes for those of us that like playing SBR poker I guess.

[Optional]

On that point, would anyone here prefer to go back to higher and more daily points prizes if the rollover was increased?

More points, more people winning prizes, more play time required at ring tables might actually be a good thing?


A big rollover would likely deter the ones just here to extract easy points too.

[Triple_D_Bet]

OK there is the question RIGHT THERE! But the points aren't getting "retired" or given back to SBR

Like casino losses! Like I just posted, SOMEBODY is winning the points into their account and then somebody

does eventually "run off" with them!! So once again the question:

Why have ANY rollover at all when somebody is going to get the points in the end anyway! Answer?

Remembering our previous "conversations", restating what I said above might not help you out, but I'll give it one try:

Yes, someone gets the points in the end (minus the relatively small rake), but it requires ring game action to make it happen. Rollover exists because SBR wants to drive ring game action.

All the people like Bobbywaves who want to take as much as possible out of poker whilst having to put as little as possible back in have turned poker into a points leak that isn't sustainable.

Hopefully they disappear when rake or rollover is inevitably increased.

Trade off would hopefully be more points prizes for those of us that like playing SBR poker I guess.

Unfortunately, those types usually hang around, trying to take as much as they can while making life unpleasant for everyone trying to make it better. We can always hope though!

[Triple_D_Bet]

On that point, would anyone here prefer to go back to higher and more daily points prizes if the rollover was increased?

More points, more people winning prizes, more play time required at ring tables might actually be a good thing?


A big rollover would likely deter the ones just here to extract easy points too.

I'd enjoy seeing bigger prizes and bigger rollover, up to and including having rollover be high enough to rake most if not all of the points back. Doing it that way (the way all online sites handle "free" bonuses) would go a long way towards making the program more effective. However...

Poker is a game of skill and chance, with chance mattering less the more hands that are played. Making rollovers too large would tend to make it so only the more skilled of players would be able to clear them profitably. For the same reason 90%+ of SBR poker players couldn't win in meaningful stakes for real money, going too far with rollover increases would drive all but the best grinders away. Games get tougher, fish don't want to play, games get even tougher, etc. Even the people who could grind out a profit might not want to when it takes that long. On top of which, you'd have people like bobbo constantly trying to cheat the system anyways, requiring a lot of admin time.

[darrell74]

I can handle the crummy rollover rules.

However, I stopped playing since their payouts have gotten stingy, and took away the 6 a.m. tournament a few years ago.
I never understood that.

[Grivas_Digeni]

I voted I love it in the ass just on principle alone. I actually think 600 for first is better even if rollover is 6x not 3x. Especially with characters like big blue around.

[Grivas_Digeni]

This is why flipping should be allowed for those people who value time.

Only no life losers want to spend hours rolling over "peanut points."

you mean peanut points not owned by everyone you call broke dikk? get your $hit together sir, you are all over the place today

[Grivas_Digeni]

Reduce rake and go back to old structure

Yes and provide 8 hours of free escort service to anyone who wins a daily (Fridays only if SBR can't afford to pay for 15 escorts per week for its esteemed clientele)

[bobbywaves]

you mean peanut points not owned by everyone you call broke dikk?

Correct broke dikk.

[Grivas_Digeni]

Correct broke dikk.

Ok so you got it together. Good to see. Wouldn't want someone like you out there with any sort of mental disease... guns are still sold to all kinds of maniacs.

Happy bobby = non-mass murdering bobby.

[bobbywaves]

All the people like Bobbywaves who want to take as much as possible out of poker whilst having to put as little as possible back in have turned poker into a points leak that isn't sustainable.

What are you talking about? Whatever I take I earned, by cashing & rolling over. As far as putting back, SBR rakes me while rolling over at cash games.

[bobbywaves]

Rollover exists because SBR wants to drive ring game action.

Ring games have always been dead, so how's your concept been working out for SBR?

You want to increase the action, have designated flipping tables & designated cash game tables.

SBR gets rake whether we flip or play ring games. So why is SBR concerned about people who value their time flipping, instead of spending hours trying to clear one rollover?

[bobbywaves]

guns are still sold to all kinds of maniacs

Indeed...I'm very well protected from the maniacs you speak of, with the help of Mr. Smith & Mr. Wesson:

[Optional]

I'd enjoy seeing bigger prizes and bigger rollover, up to and including having rollover be high enough to rake most if not all of the points back. Doing it that way (the way all online sites handle "free" bonuses) would go a long way towards making the program more effective. However...

Poker is a game of skill and chance, with chance mattering less the more hands that are played. Making rollovers too large would tend to make it so only the more skilled of players would be able to clear them profitably. For the same reason 90%+ of SBR poker players couldn't win in meaningful stakes for real money, going too far with rollover increases would drive all but the best grinders away. Games get tougher, fish don't want to play, games get even tougher, etc. Even the people who could grind out a profit might not want to when it takes that long. On top of which, you'd have people like bobbo constantly trying to cheat the system anyways, requiring a lot of admin time.

Personally, I think the two key issues we have is that there are too few people winning poker points each day right now. Plus the amounts are not so appealing for most prizes.

Right now we have 18 prize winners per day with 800 poker points per tournament going into the system.

If we doubled both of those to 36 and 1600 with a top 12 payout along these lines

1st 420
2nd 250
3rd 200
4th 160
5th 130
6th 100
7th 80
8th 70
9th 60
10th 50
11th 40
12th 40


How high of a rollover do you think the math would suggest is good for all parties?

Personally I am thinking both prizes and rollover should both as high as possible and will result in more interest in tournies and more ring game activity and less leaked points that are not stimulating poker activity or growth.

[ArunSh]

On that point, would anyone here prefer to go back to higher and more daily points prizes if the rollover was increased?

More points, more people winning prizes, more play time required at ring tables might actually be a good thing?


A big rollover would likely deter the ones just here to extract easy points too.

I would absolutely love this myself, higher daily prizes, hard to go wrong with that!

As someone who used to flip when it was legal (at least some of the time), it's actually sort of worked out well for me to have flipping being banned. Sure I have to put more time in, but I'm quite a big winner at the ring games so I definitely clear more than I did when I flipped. So hey, yeah I'm all for that!

[Optional]

Would reducing rake make upping the rollover less an issue?

Maybe a combination of the two?



I hate to sound like I want to take stuff away, and I dont mind Omaha H/L myself, but I think losing the high/low and just keeping regular Omaha tables up all week along with Holdem might be better for activity too.

So that so many people dont wait for the weekend to rollover.

[Krashman]

I'm done playing. As of this coming world cup, there is no value.

10000 betpoints = $0.00 for me. The Canadian Store options have been stagnant so long, and SBR removed the only store option that worked for me quite some time ago. That was Bodog.

The last couple promos had bitcoin prizes. Only reason I played those. But I quit the weekend tourneys.

So what would entice me to sit at a table and play with betpoints to try to win more betpoints with zero value? The infamous SBR rig is tedious as hell. Plus I'm a bad player, so not likely to play for fun.

Like I suggested before, get a bad beat jackpot going for non rollover points if you want people playing and not just rolling. SBR is famous for bad beat threads. Capitalize on that! Actually take double the normal rake amount for holdem from each hand on those bad beat tables to grow the jackpot, SBR gets half and the jackpot gets half. Bitcoin jackpot not points. If someone hits the bad beat then everyone playing at a bad beat tables gets a smaller cut as well. There is a reason other poker rooms have this promo. It's popular.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Ring games have always been dead, so how's your concept been working out for SBR?

You want to increase the action, have designated flipping tables & designated cash game tables.

SBR gets rake whether we flip or play ring games. So why is SBR concerned about people who value their time flipping, instead of spending hours trying to clear one rollover?

This has all been pointed out to you before, and you're not the type to just accept facts, but I'll explain again for the benefit of anyone else who might think the same thing:

SBR doesn't rake more than a tiny percentage of a rollover, so players flipping to clear the points doesn't meet their goal of driving meaningful action to the table. It should be fairly obvious that SBR wouldn't consider flipping to be meaningful ring game action worth giving away tons of points.

[Optional]

I'm done playing. As of this coming world cup, there is no value.

10000 betpoints = $0.00 for me. The Canadian Store options have been stagnant so long, and SBR removed the only store option that worked for me quite some time ago. That was Bodog.

The last couple promos had bitcoin prizes. Only reason I played those. But I quit the weekend tourneys.

So what would entice me to sit at a table and play with betpoints to try to win more betpoints with zero value? The infamous SBR rig is tedious as hell. Plus I'm a bad player, so not likely to play for fun.

Like I suggested before, get a bad beat jackpot going for non rollover points if you want people playing and not just rolling. SBR is famous for bad beat threads. Capitalize on that! Actually take double the normal rake amount for holdem from each hand on those bad beat tables to grow the jackpot, SBR gets half and the jackpot gets half. Bitcoin jackpot not points. If someone hits the bad beat then everyone playing at a bad beat tables gets a smaller cut as well. There is a reason other poker rooms have this promo. It's popular.

I like that idea.

I also like the high hand promos poker rooms run too.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Personally, I think the two key issues we have is that there are too few people winning poker points each day right now. Plus the amounts are not so appealing for most prizes.

Right now we have 18 prize winners per day with 800 poker points per tournament going into the system.

If we doubled both of those to 36 and 1600 with a top 12 payout along these lines

1st 420
2nd 250
3rd 200
4th 160
5th 130
6th 100
7th 80
8th 70
9th 60
10th 50
11th 40
12th 40


How high of a rollover do you think the math would suggest is good for all parties?

Personally I am thinking both prizes and rollover should both as high as possible and will result in more interest in tournies and more ring game activity and less leaked points that are not stimulating poker activity or growth.

To rake back the points given away, SBR would have to change how they do rollover. Online poker room bonuses by specifying a certain amount of rake to be contributed by the player (if $1000 is awarded, it requires contributing well over $1000 to the rake) so that the bonus is neutral to the site's bottom line. In theory SBR could change to that, but rolling over a 300 points bonus this way means a lot more play-through. For example: if a player wins 100 points heads up, currently, they're credited with 100 points of rollover (the 100 points they put in the pot). Under the new method, they'd receive credit for 5 points of rollover (the max rake collected) instead.

Even that isn't truly bottom-line neutral, as rollover lost to another player is now spendable points. The second piece for online bonuses is that they clear in small increments and only after they've been earned. So after a player pays 20+ points in rake, they're credited with the 20 points in their account, to ensure that the value given is raked first. If players have to use their own points to earn the rollover bonuses, it will drastically lower participation by casual players.

Because of the above, doubling the prizes without implementing a points-neutral method of awarding them would just double the cost to SBR, probably without driving significantly more traffic to the tables. Furthermore, expanding the number of players paid per tournament makes the tournaments less like...well, tournaments; paying 12 out of a field of 20 is a bit silly, and it's detrimental to the skillful play of a tournament (good for casual (bad) players, but not good for players who see value in a competitive tournament).

I don't have any easy fixes, but a couple of ideas:

Make poker points similar to sportsbook freeplays, in that they can only be spent as tournament entry fees. Give each pro enough of these every year to play about half of the scheduled dailies, and allow players to buy poker points for betpoints at any time (possibly with a periodic bonus offering to drive more participation).

Change the dailies to have a buy-in that supports the payout, and pay out in poker points. For an 800 point tourney expecting 25 players, collect a 35 point entry fee from all participants (prize pool plus standard rake); if more than 25 enter, adjust the prize pool accordingly. This entry fee can be betpoints or poker points. Raking the tournament provides another way for SBR to recoup some of the points given out. Drive participation by having monthly/quarterly leaderboards at the same interval as ring games (see below), awarding betpoints to the winners. (Ideally, I'd like to see this split further, with a leaderboard for most poker points won in tournaments and another for best per tournament played stats. That way, even people who are too busy to play every daily can still have a shot at earning betpoints).

Simulate cash-game-like action by doing poker-point-only tables. Players buy in for poker points (betpoints not allowed). Track the big winners every so often, and award betpoint prizes to the top 10 (prize pool based on total amount raked on these tables in that period). I personally like this, as it would drive a lot of cash game play to be competitive for the prizes, but also allows casual players to drop in with their poker points and have some fun.

Combined, these changes wouldn't be points neutral (raking freeplays and giving away betpoints), but combined with the tourney structure changes, it wouldn't give away any more actual betpoints than SBR does currently, and it would be more impressive. With 60 dailies a month awarding 800 rollover points each, SBR currently awards 48k poker points that probably gets rolled into at least 40,000 every month. They could instead give away 20,000 betpoints in cash game leaderboard prizes, 15,000 in tourney leaderboard prizes and 5,000 in "average winnings" tournament results (all monthly averages, although the "average winnings" should probably be over a quarter) and still come out ahead. This would let players use their poker points to choose how they want to try to earn betpoints, and there would be significant prizes available even for casual players.

To further concentrate ring game traffic, offer special periods of time when cash game leaderboard winnings are increased. For example, while a daily is running, players are credited with 50% more winnings (a player winning 200 points from 12 PM - 1 PM EST receives leaderboard credit for 300 points of winnings). This would let people multi-task during their daily tournament and get a good critical mass going for ring games, that could then persist for a bit longer as it takes off.

A system like this would work pretty well imo...casual players would have enough poker points for a bunch of action, and players who want to grind a bit have a reason to do so for potentially big prizes. All of the above figures are points-neutral compared to the current situation, and seems like it would drive better tourney traffic and better ring game action. The only downside is I don't know how much of this the SBR poker software can handle with reporting, so it might involve a lot of manual labor.

Thoughts?

[Optional]

I think a few of those ideas might be victim of your last paragraph.

I don't think changing buyins to work with poker points would be trivial.

Poker point only tables may be doable but not sure.

And I get why you think 12 prizes for 30-40 entries is not really poker, but these daily tournies are more the driver to get people playing and producing the poker points to stimulate normal play. I don't think it matters as much how pro they are, so much as how many people get distributed playing points to per day.


Your last paragraph is really the main consideration though. Not creating new and more manual work for Sam, and also working within the current known constraints of the software.

No use making it all too hard to implement easily and fast.


We can adjust number and size of prizes.

We can adjust the rollover multiplyer.

We can change the rake percentage.


Was really just hoping for some of that wisdom on how much rollover you think players would bear and might work well to bump up activity.

Would something like 15x rollover be too much? I am thinking if it it is that high, and people still want to play, then maybe prizes amounts could be increased even more than my suggestion above.


It does not have to be 12 places paid per tourney. if we add an extra tourney, 9 places paid in each will result in the 36 prize winners per day still too. But why not 12 if the aim is to get more people with more points into the system?