Osama bin Laden vs George W Bush - Al Queda Leader the BIG WINNER

[ritehook]

bin Laden acknowledg a long time ago he could not beat the USA militarily.

He said his aim was "to bankrupt America."

At the time (around the century's turn if I recall) it seemed absurd.

A bunch of terrorists with little technology and training or hiding in the mountains of faroff land was going to bankrupt the greatest economic power there ever was?

As Stossel says: Gimme a break!!

bin Laden got the idea from the tremendous stress that the Soviet Union endured in its invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. That long, losing war definitely helped to bankrupt the Soviet Union, and to make it disappear from history, after a strong 80+ years run.

The Soviets were chased from Afghanistan. The country is unconquerable. Those rude tribesmen there will, ultimately, hand us our heads. As they did to the Soviets.

Meanwhile, we are in fact going broke.

The subprime crisis is just part of the bigger picture. A lot of banks and financial institutions got rich for a while from this scam.

The 3 trillion dollars that Iraq will cost definitely contributed. As is the burgeoning economic sinkhole of Afghanistan, a war that cannot be "won."

The scams at home, the scams overseas. Dragging the country into a 10,000 mile deep tank.

Congratulations, Mr bin Laden! You are the Grand Winner!
And Mr Bush, well, sorry. Nice try. And we have some lovely parting gifts for you.

[frostno98]

fvck Bin Laden, guys a sociopath that murdered thousands of innocent people, conversely the same can be said about what the US are doing in IRAQ, but Americans lives are worth a lot more when I last checked.

[maniac0201]

If the US economy falters than the worlds economy falters including the countries that finance Al Queda. So that helps him how?

[ritehook]

If the US economy falters than the worlds economy falters including the countries that finance Al Queda. So that helps him how?

They'll always get financing.

In decline or not, we'll still need imported oil, lots of it.

And some of the nations that have it give a small share of the profits to various branches of AQ.

Non-linear warriors, tho, do not need anywhere near the resources, military or financial, as do a lumbering super-power.

The Algerian FLN, greatly outgunned and outspent by France, nonetheless tossed the French settlers (colonists) out of that country. A prize-winning film, The Battle of Algiers, was made of that epic struggle.

(And on the eve of our invasion of Iraq, the Pentagon had a private showing of the film to its high ranking officers and tacticians. They were not deceived by neocon propaganda of a "cakewalk.")

[ritehook]

A chief difference between a movement dedicated to a religion or other super-personal idea, and the calcified nations of the West, the US particularly, is the former's willingness to sacrifice.

It makes a huge diffeence. Napoleon, an expert on warfare, said that in war the spiritual outweighs the material by a ration of 3 to 1.

In non-linear war you can increase that to 30-1.

Jihadism is a transnational movement. With a spiritual (ie, morale) base. Its members are linked to each other, tho they are of different "nationalities" and most have nver met.

About the only thing Americans have in common are a single-minded lust for money.

It has long been forecast that when the system that encourages this selfish behavior breaks down, and without a central unifying theme for the citizens, chaos will ensue.

The war of all agaisnt all. Let us watch.

[reno cool]

About the only thing Americans have in common are a single-minded lust for money.

It has long been forecast that when the system that encourages this selfish behavior breaks down, and without a central unifying theme for the citizens, chaos will ensue.

The war of all agaisnt all. Let us watch.

things getting interesting. Unfortunately its one fanatic against another. When was the last time the people had a dog in these fights. Who ever it was I'm sure it lost. sabotaged probably

[ryanXL977]

bin laden is smoking bush. its not close

its like 2007 pats vs the dolphins

not even CLOSE

[bleuze]

As you can see from the various posts, most would prefer to support AQ. They are Americans in name only!

[ryanXL977]

nobody is supporting al queda. but they got everything they wanted the last 7 years, everything

[element1286]

I don't think it is the war that is bankrupting the economy, solely. Although it is certainly a factor. People have been spending over their means for a long time, and the government has been going into debt, and devaluing the dollar for a long time.

[ryanXL977]

yep, thats true
and they will use this bailout to once again steal from all of us, and then they will try to force a bunch of bullshit new policies on us. they got what they wanted, lots of people have seen this coming for a long long time

[ritehook]

things getting interesting. Unfortunately its one fanatic against another. When was the last time the people had a dog in these fights. Who ever it was I'm sure it lost. sabotaged probably

Reno, the great majority of folks never have a dog in any politcal, international, religious or dynastic fight.

They don't want to be bothered; they want peace, quiet, a satisfaction of basic needs, things of that nature.

But always, lurking near the edges, are the warriors (or fanatics, jihadists, superpatriots, fascists, communists) waiting their chance. Any great disturbance, upheaval, gives these personality types a chance for power and glory.

They seize the moment, seize the day (as the old revolutionary slogan has it). In times of trouble the troubled shine.

Look at the American Revolution. No polls then, but some historians estimate that a third supported it, a third supported the British Crown, and another third was apathetic either way.

As far as the movers and shakers of our revolution (mostly a war of independence, not a revolution), they may have numbered some 5% of the adult male population of their time.

And we know the names of many of them, from Sam Adams to Tom Paine on the streets, to Jefferson, Washington et al in the mansions.

With many (not all) of these militant types, their lives have little meaning without a chance to put their footprint on the pages of history. (Paine was a perfect example - after the triumph of the American Revolution he left for France to help the burgeoning French one!)

Oratory or organizational ability (or pamphleteering in the case of Paine - today he'd be a Net reporter) often gave them the opportunity to work on the mass emotions of the moment, to change history, write their name on it with fire.

[ritehook]

I don't think it is the war that is bankrupting the economy, solely. Although it is certainly a factor. People have been spending over their means for a long time, and the government has been going into debt, and devaluing the dollar for a long time.

True, it a combination of thngs. But Iraq has helped to break the back (couldn't resist the doggerel).

A Nobel economist has estimated that Iraq will ultimately cost the nation about 3 trillion bucks. A number too huge from must to even imagine.

On top of Afghainistan, and the hundreds of bases the US hae throughout the world.

And now this huge bail. I can't see how they're going to pay for it all except by tremendously inflating the money supply. (Whether with bookkeeping entries or with great piles of paper money.)

[ritehook]

yep, thats true
and they will use this bailout to once again steal from all of us, and then they will try to force a bunch of bullshit new policies on us. they got what they wanted, lots of people have seen this coming for a long long time

It's true.

Tho some of the "apocalypse now" folk have been predicting disaster for so long that no one listens to them any more.

The US does have significant reserves, both in talent, energy and tech expertise. (Tho deteriorating - tengo razon, Jose?)

And our big ace-in-the-hole has always been our relative geographical isolation. We could go and fuk up other countries, and count on the Atlantic and Pacific to protect us. (Which is why 911 so titanically shook the American psyche)

But this domestic and internatioanl mess is an historical marker. We, the world-conquerors, have feet of clay. The blow to our collective psyches, from 911 to the reverse cakewalk in Iraq to this money meldown, must be similar to a shocked Roman population about 2000 years ago getting word that a barbarian chief (Vencigetorix) had battled a Roman legion to a draw.

Fascinating times. Better than Florida and Georgia will be this year in the Cocktail Party Game.

(And if I bet my bankroll on the D'Rays I can avoid all the coming turmoil and fly to Rio without a care?)

[ritehook]

As you can see from the various posts, most would prefer to support AQ. They are Americans in name only!

bleuze,
The neocons (who were and still are in power, not posting in net forums) are "Americans in name only."

I'd put Rep Ron Paul up against any of those Dual Loyalist little sh1ts any day of the week. And he rightly said: "They're [Middle East terrorists] over here because we're over there."

It's a long tradition in America to oppose those who are taking the country in the wrong direction.

And Bush is the one, the only MR WRONG WAY.

Right up there with that guy who in a college game intercepted a pass and ran the wrong way to his own - not the opponents - end zone.

I'm afraid that GW has been to America as the iceberg was to the Titanic.

[ritehook]

What was that guy's name?

I think he played for Arizona, 1960s maybe?

[ryanXL977]

bleuze,
The neocons (who were and still are in power, not posting in net forums) are "Americans in name only."

I'd put Rep Ron Paul up against any of those Dual Loyalist little sh1ts any day of the week. And he rightly said: "They're [Middle East terrorists] over here because we're over there."

It's a long tradition in America to oppose those who are taking the country in the wrong direction.

And Bush is the one, the only MR WRONG WAY.

Right up there with that guy who in a college game intercepted a pass and ran the wrong way to his own - not the opponents - end zone.

I'm afraid that GW has been to America as the iceberg was to the Titanic.

the fact this isnt blatantly obvious to everyone in this country is the reason we are in this mess. its not even hard to see it, you BARELY have to open your eyes!

[$$POOLCRAZY$$$$]

vote for change bro

[TeamPlayer]

You are spot on, Ritehook.

What has yet to be mentioned in this thread is that Bush needed money for his wars so then he pressured Greenspan to stand pat while the Real Estate bubble grew larger and larger.

The government coffers were raking in money and the Wars were requiring much more money than Bush/neo-cons anticipated, so they choose to do nothing despite knowing that the Banks were lending money recklessly and there was a high risk of a real estate crash. It's very sad.

[ritehook]

Agree with that.

It will all come out years from now. Or maybe sooner with the magic of the Net

[ritehook]

Was thinking about Tom Paine (his famous lines during the American Revolution when soldiers were deserting Washington's army in droves: "These are the times that try men's souls . . ."

Still stirring today, that printed broadside.

If Paine were alive today he'd be a blogger. Come to think of it, there are hundreds of Paines online at any moment.

First thing a totalitarian New World Order has to do it to suppresss ("regulate") the Net.

China is showing us how.

[ritehook]

vote for change bro

Prob is pool, john and sister sarah also say they are for change

Or is that waht yu meant . . . .?

[reno cool]

There have been and are now many populist movements. They are usually socialistic, anarchist or "communistic" in nature. They have to be almost by definition. So I wouldn't say the people never have a dog. Some people are just too propagandized to know who's on their side.
As far as the American revolution. I wouldn't even call it a revolution.

US hegemony is in great danger, not only from rich religious zealots --bin laden but also from competing capitalist interest(China, Russia, etc.---sometimes chickens do come home to roost)
Also it seems that there is a challenge from Latin America. The people in many countries are no longer happy being exploited for the interests of corporations, and it seems the US grip on trusted dictators is weakening.
This should all lead to a very fine show. Unfortunately, good people usually end up paying the price.

[ritehook]

There have been and are now many populist movements. They are usually socialistic, anarchist or "communistic" in nature. They have to be almost by definition. So I wouldn't say the people never have a dog. Some people are just too propagandized to know who's on their side.
As far as the American revolution. I wouldn't even call it a revolution.

US hegemony is in great danger, not only from rich religious zealots --bin laden but also from competing capitalist interest(China, Russia, etc.---sometimes chickens do come home to roost)
Also it seems that there is a challenge from Latin America. The people in many countries are no longer happy being exploited for the interests of corporations, and it seems the US grip on trusted dictators is weakening.
This should all lead to a very fine show. Unfortunately, good people usually end up paying the price.

Populist movements, at least in the US, also have had a "conservative" slant. Xenophobic often.

Some consider Pat Buchanan's runs for the presidency to be populist. Ditto Perot's.

It's the big problem with all-inclusive labels. Some populist movements have had both "socialist" and "conservative" elements.

Labels are shorthand. Needed, to be sure, but they usually distort more than clarify. I'd gues many "conservatives" opposed the Iraq war.

I oppose all imperialist adventures of the US. I'm not a "leftist," and sure not a disciple of radio neocons, or Fox News bullshi--ers.

Imperialist ventures are not good, in general, for the US. Tho some are - the lies that got us into the war with Mexico about 160 years ago (and there was very strong domestic opposition to that war) got us as a prize the entire American Southwest.

It thereby increased or power. Whereas Iraq and also A-stan have decreased our power. (Mainly because at their root they were not fought for US interests, but those of another land.)

Americans have had a nice, perpetual birthday party ever since the bloody Civil War. Our foreign wars often seemed like sporting events, and civilians hardly ever got killed. We were safe behind the huge moats that surround our castle.

No more. And, yes, altho it's morally "wrong" there is a collective guilt. IE, the Allied-induced firestorms that incinerated tens of thousands of women and children in the unfortified city of Dresden in '44 was justified by propaganda saying they were dirty Nazis. Even tho it's not likley any but a few gave two hoots about politics.

And if a Pres McCain or Pres Palin initiate war with Russia, the nukes we in turn will be hit with will fry both those opposed to that war as much as it will radiate those who were in favor.

Life, as the folk saw has it, is not fair. (Or was it ol' Casey Stengel who first mouthed that immortal platitude?"

[ritehook]

On the topic of foreign wars as sporting events:

i once, many years ago, saw an exhibit of WW2 homefront propaganda.

It was all a huge propanganda show. Movies, comic books, popular songs, whole nine yards.

Songs played on the radio like "Rememebr Pearl Harbor." Superman and Batman fighting Japs. Or "dirty little Japs" as they were then referred to.

One movie was titiled "The Brown Beasts" - about Japanese soldiers.

Crude stuff. But effective. And I imagine a blast for the home folks.

[reno cool]

Demeaning people, whether they be minorities, foreigners or poor is a powerful tactic of the ruling class. Too bad many common people who fancy themselves moral don't see this.----Fortunately some things are changing. There may be reason to be optimistic.

[ryanXL977]

“You are interviewing the greatest free trader you will ever interview, and the greatest deregulator you will ever interview,”~John McCain~ (5/29/07 WSJ)

[HedgeHog]

Bin Laden had nothing to do with the housing crisis. But I agree that Bush's eight years in office has generated crippling debt. It's an $11 trillion hole we'll never dig out of--at least in our lifetimes.