auto industry: driving the country out of recession

[rsnnh12]

Just ignore crusty when he makes threads about the economy. He's clueless.

the dot com boom/bust had no significance to the economy whatsoever.

http://forum.sbrforum.com/players-talk/1166685-bill-maher-tearing-far-right-new-hole-p4.html#post10753988

[crustyme]

Ford's credit arm participated in a federal program meant to free up short-term lending at a time when very few investors were spending. It's no secret. The loans Ford received from the Energy Department were part of a government-industry partnership and had nothing to do with the emergency loans to keep General Motors and Chrysler in business.

This Fed program allowed banks and businesses to get back door loans through the bank and not get stigmatized by the loans. You can thank Bernie Sanders (socialist Vermont) for lifting the curtains to Harley, GE, Cat, McDonald's, many foreign operations and many more getting bailed out by the loans for very little or no interest. This use of the Fed for back door bailouts is no different in my book as borrowing strait from Congress. It is all backed by the full faith and credit of the US taxpayer.

doesn't matter.

without loans (both private and federal), ford would not be in operations today.

plus gm has paid back over half of the bailout money already and chrysler is paying back $5.9 billion to the us government. so it all worked out.

the costs to pay for millions of newly unemployed workers had the big 3 gone bankrupt would've been much greater to taxpayers.

[King Mayan]

doesn't matter.

without loans (both private and federal), ford would not be in operations today.

plus gm has paid back over half of the bailout money already and chrysler is paying back $5.9 billion to the us government. so it all worked out.

the costs to pay for millions of newly unemployed workers had the big 3 gone bankrupt would've been much greater to taxpayers.

Crustyme they don't care, they are happy they still have their $18 job or that their daddy is paying for college. Who gives a shit about other people.

[Cougar Bait]

doesn't matter.

without loans (both private and federal), ford would not be in operations today.

plus gm has paid back over half of the bailout money already and chrysler is paying back $5.9 billion to the us government. so it all worked out.

the costs to pay for millions of newly unemployed workers had the big 3 gone bankrupt would've been much greater to taxpayers.

Saying the loans that Ford took are the same as the loans that Chrysler and GM took is just factually incorrect. That was my point. And, no one knows what would have happened had those taxpayer funded loans not happened. You can assume all you want but it's merely conjecture, nothing more. It's like someone saying we would have been better off with McCain as president. It's all hypothetical.

[Cougar Bait]

This one always makes me laugh

[rsnnh12]

doesn't matter.

without loans (both private and federal), ford would not be in operations today.

plus gm has paid back over half of the bailout money already and chrysler is paying back $5.9 billion to the us government. so it all worked out.

the costs to pay for millions of newly unemployed workers had the big 3 gone bankrupt would've been much greater to taxpayers.

Why do you assume no one would have taken over the car companies if they went bankrupt? do you think that no one would want to try to fill the void of millions of cars per year and HUGE profits lost that those 3 going down would have left for the taking?

According to your logic, everyone would've just shrugged their shoulders and said "oh well, guess we wont have cars anymore unless they're from Japan or Europe".

[kerrywoodwins20]

Just ignore crusty when he makes threads about the economy. He's clueless.

http://forum.sbrforum.com/players-talk/1166685-bill-maher-tearing-far-right-new-hole-p4.html#post10753988

[rsnnh12]

Crustyme they don't care, they are happy they still have their $18 job or that their daddy is paying for college. Who gives a shit about other people.

You always assume people who disagree with you are either rich kids and/or handed everything on a silver spoon... why is that? This is about the big picture... there would have been someone that took over the car companies and employed all of those people. Acting like Obama saved us from a depression because of his actions is just ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding of how businesses work. There's a major need for cars. If the big car companies fall apart, some other company will step in to run them. Where there is profit to be made, there will be business people lining up to get in on it. The car situation would have been fine.

[crustyme]

Saying the loans that Ford took are the same as the loans that Chrysler and GM took is just factually incorrect. That was my point. And, no one knows what would have happened had those taxpayer funded loans not happened. You can assume all you want but it's merely conjecture, nothing more. It's like someone saying we would have been better off with McCain as president. It's all hypothetical.

you say tomato, i say tomahto. a loan is a loan is a loan. whether your family loans you $50,000 or the bank does, what's the difference?

so you're saying ford would've been fine had they not gotten $23 billion in loans? even though they lost $14.5 billion in 2008 alone? ford was in dire straits and required two giant loans to survive. had they not gotten that $18 billion loan in 2006, they would certainly have gotten in line for the bailout themselves.

[Cougar Bait]

you say tomato, i say tomahto. a loan is a loan is a loan. whether your family loans you $50,000 or the bank does, what's the difference?

so you're saying ford would've been fine had they not gotten $23 billion in loans? even though they lost $14.5 billion in 2008 alone? ford was in dire straits and required two giant loans to survive. had they not gotten that $18 billion loan in 2006, they would certainly have gotten in line for the bailout themselves.

Perhaps, but the premise of your thread was that Obama saved the car companies. What was Obama doing in 2006 when Ford took the majority of that money you are talking about?

I am not saying you are completely in the wrong here, what I am saying is that to say something definitely would or would not have happened is pretty much impossible to calculate. And, more to the point, if the majority of the money that Ford took was 2 years prior to Obama even being in office, I fail to see how Ford belongs as part of the OP.

[rsnnh12]

Perhaps, but the premise of your thread was that Obama saved the car companies. What was Obama doing in 2006 when Ford took the majority of that money you are talking about?

I am not saying you are completely in the wrong here, what I am saying is that to say something definitely would or would not have happened is pretty much impossible to calculate. And, more to the point, if the majority of the money that Ford took was 2 years prior to Obama even being in office, I fail to see how Ford belongs as part of the OP.

I guess we should credit Bush for saving Ford

How does that sound, crusty?

[unde0087]

who would have taken their place? every manufacturer was losing money.

millions of jobs were saved thanks to the bailout. now they are thriving.


obama

I wouldn't say thriving, car companies are almost giving away cars because you can't sell cars to people that don't have any money to buy them. In my part of the country almost every other commercial is car companies with rediculous promotions just trying to get people to the car lot. Most companies are selling cars to people who have bad credit just to move cars and all this is going to do is get more people in trouble and car companies who have problems collecting which then leads to a dramatic rise in repossessions on sold cars. If that is what you call a thriving economy then ya I guess you are right.

Lets not forget Obama bailed these companies out and didn't change leadership so the same people who ran companies into the ground are the ones that got rich on being stupid. Yes, very smart.

[cant call it]

You always assume people who disagree with you are either rich kids and/or handed everything on a silver spoon... why is that? This is about the big picture... there would have been someone that took over the car companies and employed all of those people. Acting like Obama saved us from a depression because of his actions is just ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding of how businesses work. There's a major need for cars. If the big car companies fall apart, some other company will step in to run them. Where there is profit to be made, there will be business people lining up to get in on it. The car situation would have been fine.

Crusty is not a businessman. Anyone who has ran their own business would know these things. Crusty is clueless. Just look at the original post. Cut and paste. Sheds no personal knowledge of it because he does not know sh!t. He just rolls with what fox news tells him. Dummy reading the teleprompter is all knowing to him, because he is on television he must be legit , right crusty?
He did not argue that he does not know what the concept of a betting unit is either.
Clueless

[crustyme]

Perhaps, but the premise of your thread was that Obama saved the car companies. What was Obama doing in 2006 when Ford took the majority of that money you are talking about?

I am not saying you are completely in the wrong here, what I am saying is that to say something definitely would or would not have happened is pretty much impossible to calculate. And, more to the point, if the majority of the money that Ford took was 2 years prior to Obama even being in office, I fail to see how Ford belongs as part of the OP.

ford lost $20 billion between 2008-2qt 2009. more than the $18 billion loan they received in 2006. which explains why they needed the $5 billion gov't loan. only 1 of 2 gas car makers to take the loan. and who made this loan possible? obama.

obama then introduced "cash 4 clunkers" which spurred the sales of nearly 1 million new cars and caused dealers to sell out their inventory. this shortage caused auto makers to rehire tens of thousands of workers.

and when did ford turn their first profit in 5 years? 3rd qt of 2009... same time as when cash 4 clunkers was introduced.

so stop insinuating that ford.make this miraculously turnaround on their own when they received $23.billion in loans and was the biggest beneficiary of obamas programs. the only reason they didnt need the initual bailout was cause they had already received $18 billion. had gm and chrysler the same loans they wouldnt have needed govt bailouts either.

but I like how ur ignoring the fact obamas bailout program was a huge success and now gm & chrysler are profitable and are paying back the bailout money.

[Cougar Bait]

the $18 billion loan they received in 2006. and who made this loan possible? obama.

LOL what?

It is funny to read though, so keep going.

Capitalism allowed this country to be the most powerful nation on Earth. Allowing companies to fail is part of that system.

What do you do for a living crusty?

[crustyme]

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by crustyme

the $18 billion loan they received in 2006. and who made this loan possible? obama.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by crustyme

the $18 billion loan they received in 2006. and who made this loan possible? obama.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

LOL what?

It is funny to read though, so keep going.

Capitalism allowed this country to be the most powerful nation on Earth. Allowing companies to fail is part of that system.

What do you do for a living crusty?

nice editing btw, sean hannity.

if capitalism was all about letting companies fail, then why is bankruptcy law part of the system? companies can fail, file for chapter 11 then re-emerge and become successful again. this has happened to many successful companies such as kmart, texaco, sizzler, dow corning, delta & united air, and others.

so what's wrong with what happened with gm, chrysler and ford? it's part of capitalism.

[King Mayan]

no problem with corporate welfare unless obama has something to do with it....

And America is not capitalist anymore, corporitism rules now.

[crustyme]

Crusty is not a businessman. Anyone who has ran their own business would know these things. Crusty is clueless. Just look at the original post. Cut and paste. Sheds no personal knowledge of it because he does not know sh!t. He just rolls with what fox news tells him. Dummy reading the teleprompter is all knowing to him, because he is on television he must be legit , right crusty?
He did not argue that he does not know what the concept of a betting unit is either.
Clueless

what would you know about business, dumpster boy? you trespass to steal other people's trash out of their dumpsters. collecting aluminum cans doesnt make you a sucessful businessman.



answer me this, businessboy.... how many of circuit city's 500+ stores and 30,000 employees were picked up by their competitors after they went bankrupt, you stupid fuk?

[Cougar Bait]

nice editing btw, sean hannity.

if capitalism was all about letting companies fail, then why is bankruptcy law part of the system? companies can fail, file for chapter 11 then re-emerge and become successful again. this has happened to many successful companies such as kmart, texaco, sizzler, dow corning, delta & united air, and others.

so what's wrong with what happened with gm, chrysler and ford? it's part of capitalism.

I am not a fan of Sean Hannity. But you probably need to do some reading on capitalism. I don't have the time to educate you on what it is, but believe me, the American taxpayer has not propped up businesses to the tune of billions of dollars for hundreds of years. That's a new development.

So what is it you do for a living?

[rsnnh12]

what would you know about business, dumpster boy? you trespass to steal other people's trash out of their dumpsters. collecting aluminum cans doesnt make you a sucessful businessman.



answer me this, businessboy.... how many of circuit city's 500+ stores and 30,000 employees were picked up by their competitors after they went bankrupt, you stupid fuk?

Are you seriously comparing an electronics store to 3 car companies?

You can't possibly be this dumb. Many of their employees were scooped up by other retail companies, and CC's market share was mostly taken by Best Buy and WalMart (they got roughly 2/3 of it). More money to those companies means they can hire more.

That's how businesses work, Einstein.

[crustyme]

I am not a fan of Sean Hannity. But you probably need to do some reading on capitalism. I don't have the time to educate you on what it is, but believe me, the American taxpayer has not propped up businesses to the tune of billions of dollars for hundreds of years. That's a new development.

So what is it you do for a living?

bailouts are just another form of corporate welfare which has been going on in this country forever.

ibm, xerox, ge, motorola are just some of the companies that received over $90 billion in government welfare in 2006.

but i guess that's ok because it wasn't obama who signed the checks.



what i do for a living is non of your business.

[Cougar Bait]

So you don't have a job?

I mean, naming the industry isn't difficult.

Billion dollar bailouts were not common throughout our history. Check your records.

[crustyme]

Are you seriously comparing an electronics store to 3 car companies?

You can't possibly be this dumb. Many of their employees were scooped up by other retail companies, and CC's market share was mostly taken by Best Buy and WalMart (they got roughly 2/3 of it). More money to those companies means they can hire more.

That's how businesses work, Einstein.

cc was #2 in electronics sales just like gm was #2 in auto sales behind toyota.

but they're not similar because one sold tvs and other sold cars? wow, you really are a clueless idiot. we're discussing business 101, not cars 101.



many circuit city stores remain unoccupied and most of their employees have not been scooped up by their competitors. if it were true, you'd have provided a link but none exist when it comes right out of your ass, as usual.

[King Mayan]

bailouts are just another form of corporate welfare which has been going on in this country forever.

ibm, xerox, ge, motorola are just some of the companies that received over $90 billion in government welfare in 2006.

but i guess that's ok because it wasn't obama who signed the checks.



what i do for a living is non of your business.

Crusty ask him about his job, he says he works but has time to post a shitload in multiple forums.

[crustyme]

So you don't have a job?

I mean, naming the industry isn't difficult.

Billion dollar bailouts were not common throughout our history. Check your records.

oh really?

i guess your history book is defective then.

penn railroad 1970 $3.2 billion
lockheed 1971 $1.4 billion
franklin national bank 1974 $7.8 billion
chrysler 1980 $4 billion
continental illinois national bank and trust company 1984 $9.5 billion
savings & loan 1989 $293.3 billion
airrline industry 2001 $18.6 billion


again, what i do for a living is none of your business.

[crustyme]

Crusty ask him about his job, he says he works but has time to post a shitload in multiple forums.

isnt he best friends with broke lenders? that says it all.

[rsnnh12]

cc was #2 in electronics sales just like gm was #2 in auto sales behind toyota.

but they're not similar because one sold tvs and other sold cars? wow, you really are a clueless idiot. we're discussing business 101, not cars 101.



many circuit city stores remain unoccupied and most of their employees have not been scooped up by their competitors. if it were true, you'd have provided a link but none exist when it comes right out of your ass, as usual.

See, this is why no one takes you seriously.

You tried comparing a store that only sells merchandise that others make, to car companies that not only sell merchandise, but produce it too. Do you not understand how much of a difference that is? I'll spell it out for you, since you'll obviously need it. ANY store can sell electronics like CC did. Big chains, regional stores, mom and pop shops, anyone. CC was a middle man, that's all. Car companies are both the producer and the middle man. Now, if one (or in this case, 3) of the biggest producers go down, other companies will take over that production. It could be big investors like Buffett buying big stakes and employing people they trust to turn the companies around, it could be a bunch of different scenarios. The key is that CC was strictly a distributor.

Now, do you still think its the same thing?

Why the hell would there be a link to all the CC employees being hired? Do you have a link saying they werent?

[cant call it]

See, this is why no one takes you seriously. You tried comparing a store that only sells merchandise that others make, to car companies that not only sell merchandise, but produce it too. Do you not understand how much of a difference that is? I'll spell it out for you, since you'll obviously need it. ANY store can sell electronics like CC did. Big chains, regional stores, mom and pop shops, anyone. CC was a middle man, that's all. Car companies are both the producer and the middle man. Now, if one (or in this case, 3) of the biggest producers go down, other companies will take over that production. It could be big investors like Buffett buying big stakes and employing people they trust to turn the companies around, it could be a bunch of different scenarios. The key is that CC was strictly a distributor. Now, do you still think its the same thing? Why the hell would there be a link to all the CC employees being hired? Do you have a link saying they werent?

Crusty will never get it. He has not the first shred of knowledge of how businesses work.

[crustyme]

See, this is why no one takes you seriously.

You tried comparing a store that only sells merchandise that others make, to car companies that not only sell merchandise, but produce it too. Do you not understand how much of a difference that is? I'll spell it out for you, since you'll obviously need it. ANY store can sell electronics like CC did. Big chains, regional stores, mom and pop shops, anyone. CC was a middle man, that's all. Car companies are both the producer and the middle man. Now, if one (or in this case, 3) of the biggest producers go down, other companies will take over that production. It could be big investors like Buffett buying big stakes and employing people they trust to turn the companies around, it could be a bunch of different scenarios. The key is that CC was strictly a distributor.

Now, do you still think its the same thing?

Why the hell would there be a link to all the CC employees being hired? Do you have a link saying they werent?

doesn't matter. business model applies to all types of businesses.

so where are the links numbnuts? you're the one who tried to pass of more lies as facts and got caught again.

[Cougar Bait]

isnt he best friends with broke lenders? that says it all.

I work 60 hours a week, aviation business.

Your turn.

[Cougar Bait]

oh really?

i guess your history book is defective then.

penn railroad 1970 $3.2 billion
lockheed 1971 $1.4 billion
franklin national bank 1974 $7.8 billion
chrysler 1980 $4 billion
continental illinois national bank and trust company 1984 $9.5 billion
savings & loan 1989 $293.3 billion
airrline industry 2001 $18.6 billion


again, what i do for a living is none of your business.

Your numbers aren't right. They are close, but incorrect.

See this website for more accurate information:

http://www.creditloan.com/infographics/the-history-of-us-government-corporate-bailouts/

There is no "right" answer here. You seem to lose sight of the fact that we would have no idea what would have happened without these businesses being propped up by taxpayer funds. As stated by a previous poster the most logical conclusion would be that some other business would have just scooped up it's business plan, with a different model, different personnel, and provided a product or service in it's place. If my company went out of business tomorrow another company in our field would have a fukin parade. That's the crux of capitalism, and 1970-2011 does not make for a span of time throughout our history. Nice try, but again, we fail to see eye to eye.

[crustyme]

I work 60 hours a week, aviation business.

Your turn.

no comment on the $347 billion in bailout the us gov't has handed out from 1970-2001?

[rsnnh12]

doesn't matter. business model applies to all types of businesses.

so where are the links numbnuts? you're the one who tried to pass of more lies as facts and got caught again.

Stop now, before you fall further behind. What was your reason for bringing up Circuit City in the first place?

Where's your link saying they weren't hired by other retail stores? More lies from crustyme.

[crustyme]

Your numbers aren't right. They are close, but incorrect.

See this website for more accurate information:

http://www.creditloan.com/infographics/the-history-of-us-government-corporate-bailouts/

There is no "right" answer here. You seem to lose sight of the fact that we would have no idea what would have happened without these businesses being propped up by taxpayer funds. As stated by a previous poster the most logical conclusion would be that some other business would have just scooped up it's business plan, with a different model, different personnel, and provided a product or service in it's place. If my company went out of business tomorrow another company in our field would have a fukin parade. That's the crux of capitalism, and 1970-2011 does not make for a span of time throughout our history. Nice try, but again, we fail to see eye to eye.

whether they would have succeeded or not is irrelevent to your original claim. you claimed no time in our history did the us gov't handout billions in bailout.

you were 100% wrong. just admit it and move on.

[Cougar Bait]

the American taxpayer has not propped up businesses to the tune of billions of dollars for hundreds of years.

you claimed no time in our history did the us gov't handout billions in bailout.

you were 100% wrong. just admit it and move on.

No, I said they haven't done it for hundreds of years. The notion that our country only existed as a capitalist nation from 1970 on is moronic. In fact, to that point, it's been less of a capitalist nation. It's all Nixon's fault. Rinse. Repeat.