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Comment -
I thought I just gave you a viable response.
A billion and a half dollars of weaponry that MUST be purchased in the U.S. provides a lot of jobs and paychecks for Americans at MD, Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, etc.
By the way, Israel developed a fighter aircraft 10 or 15 years ago, the Lavi I think it was called. Three were built, and that is all. The U.S. told Israel if it produces this aircratft (in competition with US military aircraft), aid would be severely reduced. Israel stopped.
Explain that one.Comment -
Really? Then I guess the Iraqi nuclear reactor just blew itself up in '81.
So, first you argue that the use of tactical nuclear weapons will cause 100,000 suicide bombers pouring into Israel, then you argue that they can't attack a country with planes that only carry two 500 lb conventional bombs.
You make such coherent arguments.Comment -
Well, you are a militant for your views (as am I) but you at least don't parrot the party line.
Did I say TOTAL power? If so, an exagerration. Nobody really has total power, but "undue" may be too weak as well.,
They are potent. When AIPAC approaches a congreesman, it's a lot different than when Joe Schmo the farmer from his district comes acallin' Becasue Joe likely can't singlehandedly defeat the politico, while AIPAC often can (ask ex Sen Fulbright, Charles whathisname who carried the Reagan ball for the Saudis anti-missile aircraft, and the Illinois congressment who was so appalled at thier influence that he wrote the readworthy book, They Dare to Speak Out.
Are you of Jewish ethnicity? Many in Israel do not agree with their govt's aggressive tactics in the ME. When I want to read the truth about the ME, i pass on the NY Times, WAsh Post etc, and go instead to Haaretz, an excellent Israeli daily.
Many Amreican Jews are in the forefront of opposition to the Iraq misadventure. Ditto to the US govt's obeisance to the Lobby. Not only grouips like Amer Council for Judaism, Tikkum, some orthodox groups, but jouirnalists like Seymour Hersh, who pissed off leading neocon Richie Perle. Some of the better writers on antiwar.com of of Jewish ethicity.
As are Mearsheimer and Walt,who wrote the groundbreaking study of the The Israeli Lobby. (Their orignal essay - supposed to have been published in the respected old Atlantic Monthly before the inevitble pressure was applied and had to be pubbed in England - is on the Net, and in book form it briefly hit the NY Times bestseller list last summer)
Former General and presiendtial candicate Wesley Clark (himself of part Jewish provenance) said that while most US Jews have a primary loyalty to America, the "big New York money" was fanatically Zionist. (He could have added "big Hollywood money" as well)
The right of lobbies to exist is written into the Constitution. (Right of the people to petition their elected representatives)
It has been abused. By both industy and other govts, and for the latter most noteworthy by those representing Israel.
I did say a few months ago on this forum that I gave it a 50-50 chance that the US, acting as Israel's catspaw, would bomb Iran before the Idiot left office. (And it -500 IMO that the Idiot will pardon zionist superspy Jonathan Pollard before he leaves for the ranch)
With so-called moderates like Gates now echoing the Cheney/Petraus line that Iran is suppying weapons to anti-invader militias, I'd up the chance to 60/40.
Do agree that if Israel sees Iran as a threat they will go after them, tho maybe not with thier own nukes. But they'd rather get thier servant in the WH to do the dirty work.
BTW, your belief that Iran (the Iranian prime miminster, I call him ADJ for short) said that Israel should be wiped off the map - is incorrect.
Never said "wiped off," never said "map." Some clown in the Iranian News Agency was responsible for the mistranlsation, but the NY TIMES in repeating it should have gotten a Farsi speaker to translate it. He said, basically, that the Zionist regime would one day disappear from history, and in that he was directly quoting the founder of modern Iran, Ayotollah Khomeini.
Prof Juan Cole (of Michigan or Mich State, i think) an expert on Iran and Farsi speaker, correctly translated the speech. Cole is a bitter enemy of the current govt of Iran, which he says had killed or imprisioned some of his colleagues. But he is an honest academic.
Gotta go till Monday!Comment -
Attacking a nuclear reactor and attacking a country's armed forces is not the same thing dumbass. If you still believe that Israel can launch a conventional attack against a country's armed forces that doesn't share a border with and is located 1000 miles apart then you are a dumber military expert than you claim to be.Comment -
I won't have to call you any names. I'll start a topic about military weapons and tactics, which you completely have no knowledge, and let your words prove the names you are called for the audience. You probably can't tell the difference between an RPG and a telescope if they were both put next to each other.Comment -
You guys are still talking about this???
Give it a rest fellows. You guys aren't going to solve this problem. You guys probably care about this more than the people in Israel and Palestine.
I learned long ago that talking about this was a complete waste of time. It's like trying to convince a pro-choice person to switch to pro-life--it's not happening.
Eventually the Jews will leave Palestine and we'll go back the 1948 border. Sooner or later the demographics will catch up in Israel where Muslims will be the majority and Jews the minority. Jews in Israel will see life in the U.S.A. is just as rewarding and far more safe and they'll all move here. No Jew is going to want to live with Muslims...certainly Jews won't tolerate such a low standard of living. Just like all the Christians have fled countries like Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, etc....no reason to believe Jews won't follow suit.
Islam is a relentless religion, they will make life miserable for the Jews from now till the end of time if they stay there......Comment -
Ritehook is making a lot of great points in his posts...he is certainly well versed on this topic.Comment -
You really don't have a clue if you think that some mass emigration by Jews from Israel to the US is going to take place.Eventually the Jews will leave PalestineComment -
Yeah, not only are you an expert in sports betting, but now you are an expert on Middle Eastern affairs as well.
No, I don't expect a "mass emigration"...read the passage more closely to see what I imply.
What I am saying is that there is sizeable Arab population that resides in Israel, approximately 20%. It's a big enough concern that the Kinnest addresses this issue routinely. There is a huge effort to attract Jews from all over the world to come live in Israel. Right before his stroke, Sharon was over in America lobbying the U.S. Congress to send more Jews to Israel. Israelis are well aware that at some distant point they will seize to be a majority in thier own country and instead they will be a minority. They can't continue to impose their laws and culture onto an unreceptive majority. Because Israel is premised on being a "Jewish State," you tell me how having an Arab majority will work???
Now I am talking 50-70 years from now not next year of course. Eventually, Jews will leave the land just as Christians in the Arab World are leaving in droves right now. In Lebanon right now, Christians are trying to get out as quickly even though just 20 years ago they were a solid majority...now they are a minority. There still remains a small community of Christians in Arab countries but nowhere near their numbers from decades ago.
Remember, the whole rationale behind the creation of Israel was that it would 1) be a safe place for Jews b/c througout their history they had been persecute and 2) It would reduce anti-semitism.
Right now, the only place in the world where Jews aren't safe is in Israel and with eveything Israel does it increases anti-semitism. Israel is pointless in that respect.
If Israel was so great, why wouldn't all the Jews in this country be rushing to live there??? How many Jews in this country do you who know are thinking seriously about settling down and moving to Israel. None, zip, zilch, zero....
Why? Life is good in America. They enjoy an unprecdented amount of religious freedom, they are financially successful, they are politically well represented, hold major positions in all sectors of life, etc....
Jews in Israel see this. Sooner or later they'll all slowly come here. It will take decades, but it will happen. The violence is unending over there. It's NEVER going to end. It just won't. Jews have a high standard of living.....The Muslims will make their lives miserable over there. Off to America.....
Bump this thread up in 2064 and you'll see I am right....Comment -
Yeah, not only are you an expert in sports betting, but now you are an expert on Middle Eastern affairs as well.
No, I don't expect a "mass emigration"...read the passage more closely to see what I imply.
What I am saying is that there is sizeable Arab population that resides in Israel, approximately 20%. It's a big enough concern that the Kinnest addresses this issue routinely. There is a huge effort to attract Jews from all over the world to come live in Israel. Right before his stroke, Sharon was over in America lobbying the U.S. Congress to send more Jews to Israel. Israelis are well aware that at some distant point they will seize to be a majority in thier own country and instead they will be a minority. They can't continue to impose their laws and culture onto an unreceptive majority. Because Israel is premised on being a "Jewish State," you tell me how having an Arab majority will work???
Now I am talking 50-70 years from now not next year of course. Eventually, Jews will leave the land just as Christians in the Arab World are leaving in droves right now. In Lebanon right now, Christians are trying to get out as quickly even though just 20 years ago they were a solid majority...now they are a minority. There still remains a small community of Christians in Arab countries but nowhere near their numbers from decades ago.
Remember, the whole rationale behind the creation of Israel was that it would 1) be a safe place for Jews b/c througout their history they had been persecute and 2) It would reduce anti-semitism.
Right now, the only place in the world where Jews aren't safe is in Israel and with eveything Israel does it increases anti-semitism. Israel is pointless in that respect.
If Israel was so great, why wouldn't all the Jews in this country be rushing to live there??? How many Jews in this country do you who know are thinking seriously about settling down and moving to Israel. None, zip, zilch, zero....
Why? Life is good in America. They enjoy an unprecdented amount of religious freedom, they are financially successful, they are politically well represented, hold major positions in all sectors of life, etc....
Jews in Israel see this. Sooner or later they'll all slowly come here. It will take decades, but it will happen. The violence is unending over there. It's NEVER going to end. It just won't. Jews have a high standard of living.....The Muslims will make their lives miserable over there. Off to America.....
Bump this thread up in 2064 and you'll see I am right....
I'm sure the U.S. is going to issue 5.5 million green cards to Israeli citizens
You should go attend some 60 year Israel independece ceremonies next month to see how unbelievably wrong you are.Comment -
Yeah, this is some wild conspiracy I have??? All Israelis are well aware of this. Why are they trying to recruit more Jews to come live in Israel? Why is Sharon lobbying the U.S. Congress to bring more Jews to live in Israel? Did I say all 5.5 million are going to leave, at once...no I said there will be a gradual departure over the next 50 years coupled with an increasing Arab presence with Israel.
Give me a break. Most Jews will eventually get tired of living in a violence loaded area and just pack up and leave. Most Jews won't want to live with an Arab majority in the future. Only the hard core religious zionest lunatics will stick around thinking that a God that does not exist from a fabricated book says that this is their land.
I take it you are Jewish....why aren't you living in Israel then if you like it so much???Comment -
I have been to Israel. The people of Israel, whether there religion is Judaism, Islam, Christianity or something else are for the most part friendly, optimistic, helpful, and have a passion for their country that I have never seen anywhere else.Yeah, this is some wild conspiracy I have??? All Israelis are well aware of this. Why are they trying to recruit more Jews to come live in Israel? Why is Sharon lobbying the U.S. Congress to bring more Jews to live in Israel? Did I say all 5.5 million are going to leave, at once...no I said there will be a gradual departure over the next 50 years coupled with an increasing Arab presence with Israel.
Give me a break. Most Jews will eventually get tired of living in a violence loaded area and just pack up and leave. Most Jews won't want to live with an Arab majority in the future. Only the hard core religious zionest lunatics will stick around thinking that a God that does not exist from a fabricated book says that this is their land.
I take it you are Jewish....why aren't you living in Israel then if you like it so much???
There is no defeatest propaganda at work in Israel as far as I could tell. The Israelis are not "afraid". They are the victims of terrorist attacks on a daily basis, yet they have not succumbed to the kind of hysteria that this country has succumbed to. They trust that Massad will use intelligence operations to stop the bad guys before they can carry out their attacks. Most are foiled, a few get through. The constant rocket attacks from Gaza are a problem. The constant suicide bombers from the West Bank are a problem. But, the Israelis deal with these atrocities and then go on with life.
There was no idiocy coming from the government about what to do about terrorism. No instructions to put duct tape on the windows to protect from chemical attacks, no idiotic threat levels based on a color which don't tell you anything about what the threat might be or what to do about it.
Two things you are very wrong about. First, Israelis are Arabs, most of them. The majority of the people living in Israel are indigenous, and they are Arabs, a lot of them just happen to practice Judaism. So to say that the Israelis won't want to live among Arabs is an idiotic statement. What you are really saying is that the Jews won't want to live among the Muslims. So, why not just say that. Of course, the Jews already live among the Muslims in Israel, 15% of the population is Muslim.
Second, there is never going to be a mass exodus from Israel. The Israelis are preparing for war. They are determined not to be the victims of a second holocaust. If pushed every able bodied adult in Israel will fight to defend their country and a lot of the teenagers as well. Israel possesses tactical nuclear weapons and is prepared to use them.
Short of the entire Muslim world banding together and attacking Israel with both conventional forces and WMDs, the Muslims cannot inflict a second holocaust on the citizens of Israel.
I also noticed that you have a double standard. You lambast Israel for "stealing Palestinian land", even though most Israelis are Palestinians since they are indigenous and therefore either inhabited the British mandate of Palestine or are the descendants of those inhabitants of the British mandate. Yet, you don't say anything about the fact that Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan annexed land that was supposed to form the second state from the British mandate of Palestine. Land that was supposed to go to the people you call Palestinians. Why aren't you upset about that?
Israel has been unilaterally giving up land occupied after the many wars with the Muslims, in a vain attempt to trade land for peace. What land has Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Lebanon given up unilaterally? And what peace did Israel get for giving up this land?
The terrorists who run Gaza, the West Bank and southern Lebanon don't want peace. Peace would be disastrous for them because then they become irrelevant and they have to start actually providing all the things a functioning government provides to its citizens. The only thing that Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah can provide is rhetoric and violence.
It isn't the Israelis that need to go, it is Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbollah.
Calling Israel an apartheid state, as some have done in this thread is an out and out lie. All citizens of Israel have the same rights. They live where they want, have the jobs they want, have a free press, occupy positions in the government, have their own political parties, and openly worship at their mosques and churches.
Contrast that with ANY Muslim country in the area and you will see what the real apartheid states are. Look specifically at the trend line for the number of churches and synagogues year by year since 1945. In EVERY Muslim country in the area this number trends down significantly. The Muslims in the West Bank and Gaza purposely raze churches and synagogues. You might want to also look at the demographics of every Muslim country in the area year by year since 1948.
You seem to imply that demographics will force the Jewish inhabitants of Israel to flee. The statistics from the U.N. do not support this idea. The demographics are working for Israel, not against Israel.Comment -
You people are on crack if you believe this DemoCong propaganda. There are strong elements inside and outside Iraq which desperately want to inflict a bloodbath on the Iraqi people. They can't do this because of the presence of American troops. Remove those troops and this restraint will be removed. The Iraqi army is not prepared to defeat these enemies, not yet.
The media portrayed the government's crackdown on the militias and criminal gangs in Basra as some sort of defeat for the government. This too was a lie. Sadr called for a cease fire. Why? Because the Kurds offered to send the Pesh Merga to Basra and the Sunnis offered to send the Awakening armies to Basra to form an alliance with the government forces and destroy the Mahdi army once and for all. The Iraqi government then put 3 battalions into combat along with US forces with a 48 hour notice and inflicted heavy casualties on the militias and criminal gangs. US forces interdicted the supply lines of ammunition coming from Iran. Sadr called a cease fire to keep his forces from being totally destroyed. I know the idiots are going to say that I made this up. You can check it out for yourself if you look for the facts and don't just drink the koolaid.
Remove the Americans from this equation and what you will have, instead of results like this, is the Iranians given a free hand to arm, equip and reinforce their proxy forces in Iraq.
The DemoCong want to do to the Iraqi people what they did to the Cambodian, Laotian, and South Vietnamese people when they abandoned them to their communist enemies in 1975. Oh, they make the betrayal sound so noble. "We just want peace". These people disgust me.
Before you DemoCong supporters post your rebuttal. Let me do it for you. First, you will say that al-Qaeda is not a threat anymore because they have been defeated. But, earlier the DemoCong said that al-Qaeda wasn't in Iraq. That the real front against al-Qaeda is Afghanistan. Which, of course is a contradiction if they now say that al-Qaeda was defeated in Iraq. Second, you will say that Iran is not supplying, equipping, arming, recruiting, and financing proxy forces in Iraq. You will say that there are no Iranian special forces or intelligence operatives in Iraq. You will say that Iran did not recruit special terror units from the Iraqi refugees that live in Iran and send these special units to Iraq. Third, you will say that what is happening in Iraq is just one gang of criminals (the government) having a turf war with another gang of criminals (the militias). About all three of these points you are dead wrong.Comment -
Oh yeah, the Israelis or Israeli Arabs or whatever you want to call them just got their ass handed to them by a religious zealot controlled militia in Hizbullah who have nothing compared to what the Israeli army has. Their government is mired in scandal over there and the ass kicking they got by Hizbullah is raising important questions about just how strong Israel is.
The writing is on the wall...most Jews see life in America as far more safe and secure and possessing the same religious freedoms. So what, you go down the street and not everyone is Jewish anymore. Big deal, most Jews would trade that in a heartbeat if they got security and religious freedom. Lot of places in America have strong Jewish communities....they'll just resettle there and assimilate here. Again, the question is legitimate...do you know of any Jews in America who are seriously considering moving to Israel to live??? Sure, some go visit and travel there and have friends and what not...but leave America, yeah right. No thanks....
Have you ever lived with Muslims? Have you ever been in a society with Muslims before? I have...i know what it is like. It's not tolerable at all. Jews will eventually leave. Jews have always left their land, they'll do so again and Palestine will return again. Islam is the fastest growing religion and it is relentless in its ideology...they will fight till the end. Jews won't....Comment -
Israel and the Arab world are not as far apart as this thread might have you think.
Photo below, taken in Qatar April 14, 2008, Israel Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni shaking hands with the Prime Minister of Qatar.
JERUSALEM (AFP) - Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on Sunday headed to the Gulf Arab state of Qatar to attend the Doha democracy forum and hold meetings with Arab leaders focusing on Iran's nuclear drive.
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Livni, who will become only the second senior Israeli official to visit Qatar since the two states forged ties in 2005, will speak before the Doha Forum on Democracy, Development and Free Trade, her office said in a statement.
"The minister is also expected to hold several bilateral meetings with the Emirates' leadership, tour national sites and centres and hold other meetings," it said.
A senior aide to Livni said that her discussions will focus on Tehran's controversial nuclear programme, which Israel and the West suspect is aimed at developing an atomic bomb, a claim denied by the Islamist republic.
Livni will also discuss the situation in Syria, Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, where the Islamist Hamas movement seized control last year.
Qatar, like most Arab countries does not have full diplomatic relations with Israel, but the Jewish state has a commercial interests office in Doha staffed by two diplomats, and representatives of both countries meet regularly.
Last September, Qatar's emir Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani met Livni in New York on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly.
Arab leaders gave her a standing ovation when she was introduced at the conference.
Iran pulled back its representatives when they found out Ms. Livni would be there and is not attending the conference.Comment -
Well sure, the Arab leaders have very strong relationship with Israeli leaders contrary to what you might think or the way in which the media portrays it. Of course these relationships are in secret.
All the talk about destroying Israel and using their militaries to launch a war on Israel if they do anything to the Palestinians is utter nonsense. ALL Arab leaders have very positive relationships with Israel, they just say these things so that they resonate with their citizens at home. Even Yassir Arafat was a good friend of the Israeli government. Who do you think was ratting out all the Palestinian militia men? How do you think Israel knew the exact coordinates where all those terrorists were? You think their intelligence is that amazing??? It was Arafat who was giving the Israeli gvmt the info....he and Sharon were very good friends despite everything.
Arab leaders have one thing in mind and that is staying in power...any attack on Israel would be suicidal for achieving that goal. These leaders have "life time appointments" you don't want to blow it. It's a cushy job to say the least.
So you'll hear the local Islamic cleric go off on any given Friday saying this and that...or the "man on the street" chant on the street "death to Israel," but do you see any Arab leader ready to act on that public opinion at all? Not a chance in hell.....
Instead, the Arab world has big big problems. Leaders are content in letting their populations dwell on the Palestinia/Israeli conflict night and day rather than have them think about struggling economies, illiteracy that prevades the Arab world, the lack of modernity, etc... How many of these Arab leaders are even helping the Palestinians...they might help them out by giving them a modest amount of money or voting for some resoluation at the U.N., but in terms of taking in refugees or doing anything of substance, no thanks....
Trust me, fellows, I've studies this stuff a lot. EVERYTHING you hear in the media is total b.s.Comment -
I read through this thread this morning and now I understand even more than I did yesterday....
a) who votes for George W. Bush and how a congenital retard with not one success on his record got reelected (by other congenital retards).
b) why the world think Israel is an apartheid craphole
c) why the United States (unfortunately) is slipping into being a 3rd world country
d) there are a great number of morons in this world who think that if you don't support Israel, you must be an Arab. These people are delusional. They need to take a trip to Europe, Russia and Canada and talk to the average person there. Its only brainwashed Americans who think Israel is their "friend".
Remember folks, the lives of Israelis and Israel are more important than your children, grandchildren, your economy, your livelihood.
You are supposed to believe that Israel is our friend, yet why do they steal your military technology and sell it to China (twice)? They spy and get caught all the time. Why do criminals like Marc Rich flee to Israel from the US and why will Israel not extradite them? Why do they insist that a bankrupt friend lend them billions of dollars a year, and pressure the Congress unendingly for more, more, more? What kind of "friend" is this?
And if you disagree, you're an ANTI-SEMITE!Comment -
What I find most interesting about this thread are the following assumptions that people made about me because I made a statement which can be boiled down to, "Iran is doing XYZ, Israel views XYZ as a threat, if Iran threatens Israel enough, Israel will launch a preemptive strike on Iran".
Here are the assumptions that people made about me because I made this statement:
1. I must be a Jew. (I am not.)
2. I must hate all Arabs. (Iranians are not Arabs, so I don't get this one at all).
3. I must want Israel to launch a nuclear attack on Iran. (Only said I thought that would happen based on observations of events. This one is kind of like saying that the weather scientists who predicted Katrina wanted it to happen).
4. I must be a Republican. (I am not.)
5. I must be a brainwashed supporter of anything Bush does. (I really had to laugh at this one. I didn't vote for Bush, would not vote for Bush. Bush is a bumbler and an amateur).
6. I must agree with everything Israel does. (I do not. I simply pointed out what I thought they would do based on actions they are currently taking and statements that their leaders are making).
There are more stupid assumptions made, but you get the point.
Basically, these people are saying because I looked at current events and think that if Iran and Israel stay on course there will be a war that somehow this makes me a brainwashed supporter of anything Israel does or has done. This "logic" makes about as much sense as saying that the scientists who predicted Katrina wanted Katrina to happen, and they are supporters of hurricanes.
Some people on here need to grow up.Comment -
Buddy Bear,
I don't consider myself an expert on ME affairs. However, I do have distant cousins living in Israel and I have been there. I also know Jews in this country who are considering moving to Israel or are currently living there now. You are right about Christians in the Arab world. Lebanon hasn't had a census in 30 years because of the Christian emigration. Palestinian Christians are getting screwed the most at the moment. However, if you think there is going to be some takeover by Arabs and all the Israelis will just move to the US, you are simply wrong. As well, that 20% is not completely Muslim, especially if you include the Druze who consider themselves Israeli rather than Palestinian.Comment -
I am not saying there is going to be some big takeover... unlikely. What I am saying is that Israel has a lot of things working against it. It has enemies all around it, it experiences unending violence, it has a growing Arab population within it's borders that are increasing faster than the Jewish population. Muslims have like 4-8 kids miniumum. etc.... Sooner or later the demographics will just catch up. Israelis themselves are well awre of this phenomenon.
If Jews in Israel see that life is the same or safer in other places in the world....they'll eventually pack up and leave. Just like the Christians in the Arab World have a strong religious and historical attachment to the land, they abandoned their homes. Nobody can tolerate living with neverending violence except Muslims. Why should Jews live under threat all the time? Why should they live with Muslims who would prefer to see them dead? I am Catholic (at least grew up that way) and there is no way I would live with Muslims and I don't even have anything against them. In fact, I am very sympathetic with them for the most part. Mind you, I am not making a sweeping generalization of Islam being violent, but I am being realistic here.
Right now, life for Jews in the United States is amazing given the history of Jewish suffering the past 2000+ years. Like I said in a previous post, really the only place Jews aren't safe is in Israel which is the ultimate irony. Demographics will shift not today or tomorrow, but eventually Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel and many will leave......Comment -
This Saturday night starts the jewish holiday of Passover.
On the first night of this 7 day holiday, jewish families get together and and have a long ceremony and many course meal, and read from a book called the haggadah.
This book is the story of the exodus of jews from Egypt into Israel that took place in the Pharos time.
This story has been passed down from generation to generation for many centuries.
It is not the story of leaving Egypt to go to America, or Australia, or South Africa, or Sweden.
It is the story of the jews leaving Egypt for Israel.
Israel is the spiritual center for the jews now as it has been for thousands of years.Comment -
Buddy Bear,
Conditions are better for Jews in Israel than they were for Jews in Europe for so long that it looks good in comparison. The current situation is nothing compared to the years of pogroms, the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust and the general running around of Jews throughout Europe prior to the creation of Israel.Comment -
Well, sure, that's definitely true. The big difference between that time and these days is that back then there was a systematic effort to entirely eliminate Jews from the earth (either through killing them or through conversion). Now, the Arabs just want back that piece of land and could care less if they practice elsewhere. So in that respect, it is better.
However, when you consider 2008, Jews are relatively safe around the world because of stricter laws intended to protect minority groups from harm, increased awareness of Jewish suffering (i.e. schools, museums, media, public awareness campaigns, etc...), a recognition by high profile institutions and countries of their culpability of Jewish suffering (i.e. the Catholic Church, Europe, the United States), That being the case, there are troubling areas where anti-semitism is on the rise (i.e. Easter Europe) but relatively speaking, Jews experience more danger than anywhere else in the world by living in Israel.
So my entire argument here is that sure Jews may feel a strong historical and religious connection by living in Israel now, but Muslims are going to be there forever too like it or not. They aren't leaving and neither side is giving in. My experiences are fixed. I can tell you living with Muslims is very very difficult even though most are good, but collectively Islam is a problem. Just like Christians are leaving the Arab world in droves, Jews will eventually leave the land....trust me, Jews have very high standards of living. They won't tolerate living with unending violence. The Christians in the Arab world said fukc it...let's get out of here while we still can. I mean the birthpalce of Christianity is in the ME and the Christians said screw it, we don't need this anymore. The only real difference is that the Jews have a state, while the Chrisitans never really did.
Additionally, things are changing. Israel was humiliated by Hizbullah the other year. A militia with limited weapons and next to no diplomatic support. Israel is no longer seen as invincible. Their government is mired in the same scandals that we see here. More and more Americans are questioning the relationship between the US and Israel. High profile authors have come out lambasting Israeli policy and questionning the usefulness of the "special relationship." Sure the corporate media and corporate puppets in Congress are slow to catch on, but all it takes is one to get the ball rolling. If the U.S. ever reconsiders its support for Israel, Israel will be basically done. The Israeli Lobby knows that and all the Jews know that too. That's why there is an all out assault on members of Congress to be pro-Israeli. I have never in my life seen so many cowardly people like the U.S. Congress, most of whom are afraid to speak their conscience. On every issue the Congress disagrees on except that single issue of Israel.
I would bet anything that most members of Congress deep down inside hate Israel with a passion or at the very least are not as enthusiastic to support it as the votes would suggest. I'd just about lay any price that Obama loathes the idea of supporting Israel unconditionally. Just like I would bet that about 30-40% of Congress members are atheist or agonistic.
Too many uncritical voices in Congress these days pandering to special interests. The Congress has become very very weak.
Anyway...this thread is waste of time. Nobody's opinion has changed, perhaps guys have learned something new but it's an issue that engenders a lot of passion. Nothing is changing for the time being. There will be violence next year, and there will be a call for Palestinian state too, and there will be diplomatic meetings, and there will be resolutions at the U.N. that will be condemned by Israel for being too biased, and the members of the U.S. Congress will vote for some Pro-Israeli resoution something like 451-7 and then will vote for some resolution censuring the Palestinian Authority 454-2, etc... Nothing changes fellows. This I guarantee. It's been like this as long as I can remember. Everything stays the same on this topic. I guarantee you we could pull this thead up 20 years from now and the only difference will be the political players...that's it.
No sense in wasting any more time on this topic. Both sides lost long ago.....Comment -
This is a huge difference. If Christians had their own state, nowhere near as many would have left.The only real difference is that the Jews have a state, while the Chrisitans never really did.Comment -
"AIPAC and its 60,000 members shower millions of dollars on hundreds of members of Congress on both sides of the aisle.
Reporting on AIPAC's annual conference, correspondent Mike Allen noted that the attendees included half the Senate, ninety members of the House and thirteen senior Administration officials, including White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card, who drew a standing ovation when he declared in Hebrew, "The people of Israel live." Showing its "clout," Allen wrote, AIPAC held "a lively roll call of the hundreds of dignitaries, with individual cheers for each."Comment -
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Half the Senate...that's all? Usually they get at least 70-80%of the Senate.
Don't be fooled. Most of these Senators despise Israel and could care less for it, or at the very least it is low on their priority list. Once members of Congress leave office, they say all sorts of things--on-record and off-record--that are never dared uttered during their time in office.
The whole event that AIPAC sponsored is an absolute charade. AIPAC knows it, the Congress knows it, administration officials know it, the corporate media knows it, even Jewish-Americans know it, etc.... Unfortunately the American public does not know it yet.
Remember a few posts back when I said "Arab leaders love to be in power..." Well, so do American people. The members of Congress know that the pockets and coffers of the Jewish-American community run deep...real deep.
And lo and behold, what has decades of political science research uncovered about political campaigns....well, money is the best predictor of who is going to win an election.
So you have 1) people who want to hold onto their seats in Congress and 2) A lobby group that has untold sums of money. Now you have a match made in heaven
Say what you will about the Israel/Palestine conflict.... but is anyone on here really dumb enough to believe that the American Congress is so endeared with Israel? All members of Congress want is the Israel lobby's money and all the Israel lobby wants is for them to support Israel. No questions asked....
Congress is an absolute joke.....Comment -
Half the Senate...that's all? Usually they get at least 70-80%of the Senate.
Don't be fooled. Most of these Senators despise Israel and could care less for it, or at the very least it is low on their priority list. Once members of Congress leave office, they say all sorts of things--on-record and off-record--that are never dared uttered during their time in office.
The whole event that AIPAC sponsored is an absolute charade. AIPAC knows it, the Congress knows it, administration officials know it, the corporate media knows it, even Jewish-Americans know it, etc.... Unfortunately the American public does not know it yet.
Remember a few posts back when I said "Arab leaders love to be in power..." Well, so do American people. The members of Congress know that the pockets and coffers of the Jewish-American community run deep...real deep.
And lo and behold, what has decades of political science research uncovered about political campaigns....well, money is the best predictor of who is going to win an election.
So you have 1) people who want to hold onto their seats in Congress and 2) A lobby group that has untold sums of money. Now you have a match made in heaven
Say what you will about the Israel/Palestine conflict.... but is anyone on here really dumb enough to believe that the American Congress is so endeared with Israel? All members of Congress want is the Israel lobby's money and all the Israel lobby wants is for them to support Israel. No questions asked....
Congress is an absolute joke.....
So you're saying Arabs lack money?
The millions of barels of oil they're pumping daily, year after year, and selling for the generous prce the market brings - that they don't have enough to "buy" influence in Congress? Do you really believe that money is the only reason binding the U.S. and Israel?
The U.S. is a very Christian country, with a strong Judeo-Christian ethic. There is tolerance and a certain kinship between the U.S. version of Christianity towards Judaism that doesn't exist anywhere else. There has never been anti-semitism in the U.S anywhere the degree there has been in Europe and Russia because of this.
If all it takes is money, the Arabs certainly have enough to purchase 100 times more influence with their oil money than what the Jews do in Congress.
Either the Arabs are too cheap to do it, or there is a stronger bond between the U.S and Israel than your eyes are able to see and your senses are able to be tuned into.Comment -
Of course the oil lobby uses money to buy votes in Congress. Why else would there be a moratorium on exploration and drilling for oil on all federal lands and on 85% of offshore areas? Why was the Gull Island field declared off limits by declaring Gull Island a wildlife refuge after large oil reserves were discovered there? Why is 100% of federal land off limits to the new slant drilling techniques that are reopening old oil fields on private property? Congress is being paid to keep new oil reserves from coming on line in the United States in order to keep the price of oil artificially high.Comment
