Iran is on a highway to its own destruction

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  • Scorpion
    SBR Hall of Famer
    • 09-04-05
    • 7797

    #71
    Europeans have been more willing than Americans to criticise Israeli policy, which some people attribute to a resurgence of anti-semitism in Europe. We are ‘getting to a point’, the US ambassador to the EU said in early 2004, ‘where it is as bad as it was in the 1930s’. Measuring anti-semitism is a complicated matter, but the weight of evidence points in the opposite direction. In the spring of 2004, when accusations of European anti-semitism filled the air in America, separate surveys of European public opinion conducted by the US-based Anti-Defamation League and the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press found that it was in fact declining. In the 1930s, by contrast, anti-semitism was not only widespread among Europeans of all classes but considered quite acceptable.

    The Lobby and its friends often portray France as the most anti-semitic country in Europe. But in 2003, the head of the French Jewish community said that ‘France is not more anti-semitic than America.’ According to a recent article in Ha’aretz, the French police have reported that anti-semitic incidents declined by almost 50 per cent in 2005; and this even though France has the largest Muslim population of any European country. Finally, when a French Jew was murdered in Paris last month by a Muslim gang, tens of thousands of demonstrators poured into the streets to condemn anti-semitism. Jacques Chirac and Dominique de Villepin both attended the victim’s memorial service to show their solidarity.

    No one would deny that there is anti-semitism among European Muslims, some of it provoked by Israel’s conduct towards the Palestinians and some of it straightforwardly racist. But this is a separate matter with little bearing on whether or not Europe today is like Europe in the 1930s. Nor would anyone deny that there are still some virulent autochthonous anti-semites in Europe (as there are in the United States) but their numbers are small and their views are rejected by the vast majority of Europeans.

    Israel’s advocates, when pressed to go beyond mere assertion, claim that there is a ‘new anti-semitism’, which they equate with criticism of Israel. In other words, criticise Israeli policy and you are by definition an anti-semite. When the synod of the Church of England recently voted to divest from Caterpillar Inc on the grounds that it manufactures the bulldozers used by the Israelis to demolish Palestinian homes, the Chief Rabbi complained that this would ‘have the most adverse repercussions on . . . Jewish-Christian relations in Britain’, while Rabbi Tony Bayfield, the head of the Reform movement, said: ‘There is a clear problem of anti-Zionist – verging on anti-semitic – attitudes emerging in the grass-roots, and even in the middle ranks of the Church.’ But the Church was guilty merely of protesting against Israeli government policy.

    Critics are also accused of holding Israel to an unfair standard or questioning its right to exist. But these are bogus charges too. Western critics of Israel hardly ever question its right to exist: they question its behaviour towards the Palestinians, as do Israelis themselves. Nor is Israel being judged unfairly. Israeli treatment of the Palestinians elicits criticism because it is contrary to widely accepted notions of human rights, to international law and to the principle of national self-determination. And it is hardly the only state that has faced sharp criticism on these grounds.

    In the autumn of 2001, and especially in the spring of 2002, the Bush administration tried to reduce anti-American sentiment in the Arab world and undermine support for terrorist groups like al-Qaida by halting Israel’s expansionist policies in the Occupied Territories and advocating the creation of a Palestinian state. Bush had very significant means of persuasion at his disposal. He could have threatened to reduce economic and diplomatic support for Israel, and the American people would almost certainly have supported him. A May 2003 poll reported that more than 60 per cent of Americans were willing to withhold aid if Israel resisted US pressure to settle the conflict, and that number rose to 70 per cent among the ‘politically active’. Indeed, 73 per cent said that the United States should not favour either side.

    Yet the administration failed to change Israeli policy, and Washington ended up backing it. Over time, the administration also adopted Israel’s own justifications of its position, so that US rhetoric began to mimic Israeli rhetoric. By February 2003, a Washington Post headline summarised the situation: ‘Bush and Sharon Nearly Identical on Mideast Policy.’ The main reason for this switch was the Lobby.

    The story begins in late September 2001, when Bush began urging Sharon to show restraint in the Occupied Territories. He also pressed him to allow Israel’s foreign minister, Shimon Peres, to meet with Yasser Arafat, even though he (Bush) was highly critical of Arafat’s leadership. Bush even said publicly that he supported the creation of a Palestinian state. Alarmed, Sharon accused him of trying ‘to appease the Arabs at our expense’, warning that Israel ‘will not be Czechoslovakia’.

    Bush was reportedly furious at being compared to Chamberlain, and the White House press secretary called Sharon’s remarks ‘unacceptable’. Sharon offered a pro forma apology, but quickly joined forces with the Lobby to persuade the administration and the American people that the United States and Israel faced a common threat from terrorism. Israeli officials and Lobby representatives insisted that there was no real difference between Arafat and Osama bin Laden: the United States and Israel, they said, should isolate the Palestinians’ elected leader and have nothing to do with him.

    The Lobby also went to work in Congress. On 16 November, 89 senators sent Bush a letter praising him for refusing to meet with Arafat, but also demanding that the US not restrain Israel from retaliating against the Palestinians; the administration, they wrote, must state publicly that it stood behind Israel. According to the New York Times, the letter ‘stemmed’ from a meeting two weeks before between ‘leaders of the American Jewish community and key senators’, adding that AIPAC was ‘particularly active in providing advice on the letter’.

    By late November, relations between Tel Aviv and Washington had improved considerably. This was thanks in part to the Lobby’s efforts, but also to America’s initial victory in Afghanistan, which reduced the perceived need for Arab support in dealing with al-Qaida. Sharon visited the White House in early December and had a friendly meeting with Bush.

    In April 2002 trouble erupted again, after the IDF launched Operation Defensive Shield and resumed control of virtually all the major Palestinian areas on the West Bank. Bush knew that Israel’s actions would damage America’s image in the Islamic world and undermine the war on terrorism, so he demanded that Sharon ‘halt the incursions and begin withdrawal’. He underscored this message two days later, saying he wanted Israel to ‘withdraw without delay’. On 7 April, Condoleezza Rice, then Bush’s national security adviser, told reporters: ‘“Without delay” means without delay. It means now.’ That same day Colin Powell set out for the Middle East to persuade all sides to stop fighting and start negotiating.

    Israel and the Lobby swung into action. Pro-Israel officials in the vice-president’s office and the Pentagon, as well as neo-conservative pundits like Robert Kagan and William Kristol, put the heat on Powell. They even accused him of having ‘virtually obliterated the distinction between terrorists and those fighting terrorists’. Bush himself was being pressed by Jewish leaders and Christian evangelicals. Tom DeLay and Dick Armey were especially outspoken about the need to support Israel, and DeLay and the Senate minority leader, Trent Lott, visited the White House and warned Bush to back off.

    The first sign that Bush was caving in came on 11 April – a week after he told Sharon to withdraw his forces – when the White House press secretary said that the president believed Sharon was ‘a man of peace’. Bush repeated this statement publicly on Powell’s return from his abortive mission, and told reporters that Sharon had responded satisfactorily to his call for a full and immediate withdrawal. Sharon had done no such thing, but Bush was no longer willing to make an issue of it.

    Meanwhile, Congress was also moving to back Sharon. On 2 May, it overrode the administration’s objections and passed two resolutions reaffirming support for Israel. (The Senate vote was 94 to 2; the House of Representatives version passed 352 to 21.) Both resolutions held that the United States ‘stands in solidarity with Israel’ and that the two countries were, to quote the House resolution, ‘now engaged in a common struggle against terrorism’. The House version also condemned ‘the ongoing support and co-ordination of terror by Yasser Arafat’, who was portrayed as a central part of the terrorism problem. Both resolutions were drawn up with the help of the Lobby. A few days later, a bipartisan congressional delegation on a fact-finding mission to Israel stated that Sharon should resist US pressure to negotiate with Arafat. On 9 May, a House appropriations subcommittee met to consider giving Israel an extra $200 million to fight terrorism. Powell opposed the package, but the Lobby backed it and Powell lost.

    In short, Sharon and the Lobby took on the president of the United States and triumphed. Hemi Shalev, a journalist on the Israeli newspaper Ma’ariv, reported that Sharon’s aides ‘could not hide their satisfaction in view of Powell’s failure. Sharon saw the whites of President Bush’s eyes, they bragged, and the president blinked first.’ But it was Israel’s champions in the United States, not Sharon or Israel, that played the key role in defeating Bush.

    The situation has changed little since then. The Bush administration refused ever again to have dealings with Arafat. After his death, it embraced the new Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas, but has done little to help him. Sharon continued to develop his plan to impose a unilateral settlement on the Palestinians, based on ‘disengagement’ from Gaza coupled with continued expansion on the West Bank. By refusing to negotiate with Abbas and making it impossible for him to deliver tangible benefits to the Palestinian people, Sharon’s strategy contributed directly to Hamas’s electoral victory. With Hamas in power, however, Israel has another excuse not to negotiate. The US administration has supported Sharon’s actions (and those of his successor, Ehud Olmert). Bush has even endorsed unilateral Israeli annexations in the Occupied Territories, reversing the stated policy of every president since Lyndon Johnson.

    US officials have offered mild criticisms of a few Israeli actions, but have done little to help create a viable Palestinian state. Sharon has Bush ‘wrapped around his little finger’, the former national security adviser Brent Scowcroft said in October 2004. If Bush tries to distance the US from Israel, or even criticises Israeli actions in the Occupied Territories, he is certain to face the wrath of the Lobby and its supporters in Congress. Democratic presidential candidates understand that these are facts of life, which is the reason John Kerry went to great lengths to display unalloyed support for Israel in 2004, and why Hillary Clinton is doing the same thing today.

    Maintaining US support for Israel’s policies against the Palestinians is essential as far as the Lobby is concerned, but its ambitions do not stop there. It also wants America to help Israel remain the dominant regional power. The Israeli government and pro-Israel groups in the United States have worked together to shape the administration’s policy towards Iraq, Syria and Iran, as well as its grand scheme for reordering the Middle East.

    Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the ‘real threat’ from Iraq was not a threat to the United States. The ‘unstated threat’ was the ‘threat against Israel’, Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002. ‘The American government,’ he added, ‘doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.’

    On 16 August 2002, 11 days before Dick Cheney kicked off the campaign for war with a hardline speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Washington Post reported that ‘Israel is urging US officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein.’ By this point, according to Sharon, strategic co-ordination between Israel and the US had reached ‘unprecedented dimensions’, and Israeli intelligence officials had given Washington a variety of alarming reports about Iraq’s WMD programmes. As one retired Israeli general later put it, ‘Israeli intelligence was a full partner to the picture presented by American and British intelligence regarding Iraq’s non-conventional capabilities.’

    Israeli leaders were deeply distressed when Bush decided to seek Security Council authorisation for war, and even more worried when Saddam agreed to let UN inspectors back in. ‘The campaign against Saddam Hussein is a must,’ Shimon Peres told reporters in September 2002. ‘Inspections and inspectors are good for decent people, but dishonest people can overcome easily inspections and inspectors.’

    At the same time, Ehud Barak wrote a New York Times op-ed warning that ‘the greatest risk now lies in inaction.’ His predecessor as prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, published a similar piece in the Wall Street Journal, entitled: ‘The Case for Toppling Saddam’. ‘Today nothing less than dismantling his regime will do,’ he declared. ‘I believe I speak for the overwhelming majority of Israelis in supporting a pre-emptive strike against Saddam’s regime.’ Or as Ha’aretz reported in February 2003, ‘the military and political leadership yearns for war in Iraq.’

    As Netanyahu suggested, however, the desire for war was not confined to Israel’s leaders. Apart from Kuwait, which Saddam invaded in 1990, Israel was the only country in the world where both politicians and public favoured war. As the journalist Gideon Levy observed at the time, ‘Israel is the only country in the West whose leaders support the war unreservedly and where no alternative opinion is voiced.’ In fact, Israelis were so gung-ho that their allies in America told them to damp down their rhetoric, or it would look as if the war would be fought on Israel’s behalf.

    Within the US, the main driving force behind the war was a small band of neo-conservatives, many with ties to Likud. But leaders of the Lobby’s major organisations lent their voices to the campaign. ‘As President Bush attempted to sell the . . . war in Iraq,’ the Forward reported, ‘America’s most important Jewish organisations rallied as one to his defence. In statement after statement community leaders stressed the need to rid the world of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction.’ The editorial goes on to say that ‘concern for Israel’s safety rightfully factored into the deliberations of the main Jewish groups.’

    Although neo-conservatives and other Lobby leaders were eager to invade Iraq, the broader American Jewish community was not. Just after the war started, Samuel Freedman reported that ‘a compilation of nationwide opinion polls by the Pew Research Center shows that Jews are less supportive of the Iraq war than the population at large, 52 per cent to 62 per cent.’ Clearly, it would be wrong to blame the war in Iraq on ‘Jewish influence’. Rather, it was due in large part to the Lobby’s influence, especially that of the neo-conservatives within it.

    The neo-conservatives had been determined to topple Saddam even before Bush became president. They caused a stir early in 1998 by publishing two open letters to Clinton, calling for Saddam’s removal from power. The signatories, many of whom had close ties to pro-Israel groups like JINSA or WINEP, and who included Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Bernard Lewis, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz, had little trouble persuading the Clinton administration to adopt the general goal of ousting Saddam. But they were unable to sell a war to achieve that objective. They were no more able to generate enthusiasm for invading Iraq in the early months of the Bush administration. They needed help to achieve their aim. That help arrived with 9/11. Specifically, the events of that day led Bush and Cheney to reverse course and become strong proponents of a preventive war.

    At a key meeting with Bush at Camp David on 15 September, Wolfowitz advocated attacking Iraq before Afghanistan, even though there was no evidence that Saddam was involved in the attacks on the US and bin Laden was known to be in Afghanistan. Bush rejected his advice and chose to go after Afghanistan instead, but war with Iraq was now regarded as a serious possibility and on 21 November the president charged military planners with developing concrete plans for an invasion.

    Other neo-conservatives were meanwhile at work in the corridors of power. We don’t have the full story yet, but scholars like Bernard Lewis of Princeton and Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins reportedly played important roles in persuading Cheney that war was the best option, though neo-conservatives on his staff – Eric Edelman, John Hannah and Scooter Libby, Cheney’s chief of staff and one of the most powerful individuals in the administration – also played their part. By early 2002 Cheney had persuaded Bush; and with Bush and Cheney on board, war was inevitable.

    Outside the administration, neo-conservative pundits lost no time in making the case that invading Iraq was essential to winning the war on terrorism. Their efforts were designed partly to keep up the pressure on Bush, and partly to overcome opposition to the war inside and outside the government. On 20 September, a group of prominent neo-conservatives and their allies published another open letter: ‘Even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack,’ it read, ‘any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq.’ The letter also reminded Bush that ‘Israel has been and remains America’s staunchest ally against international terrorism.’ In the 1 October issue of the Weekly Standard, Robert Kagan and William Kristol called for regime change in Iraq as soon as the Taliban was defeated. That same day, Charles Krauthammer argued in the Washington Post that after the US was done with Afghanistan, Syria should be next, followed by Iran and Iraq: ‘The war on terrorism will conclude in Baghdad,’ when we finish off ‘the most dangerous terrorist regime in the world’.

    This was the beginning of an unrelenting public relations campaign to win support for an invasion of Iraq, a crucial part of which was the manipulation of intelligence in such a way as to make it seem as if Saddam posed an imminent threat. For example, Libby pressured CIA analysts to find evidence supporting the case for war and helped prepare Colin Powell’s now discredited briefing to the UN Security Council. Within the Pentagon, the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group was charged with finding links between al-Qaida and Iraq that the intelligence community had supposedly missed. Its two key members were David Wurmser, a hard-core neo-conservative, and Michael Maloof, a Lebanese-American with close ties to Perle. Another Pentagon group, the so-called Office of Special Plans, was given the task of uncovering evidence that could be used to sell the war. It was headed by Abram Shulsky, a neo-conservative with long-standing ties to Wolfowitz, and its ranks included recruits from pro-Israel think tanks. Both these organisations were created after 9/11 and reported directly to Douglas Feith.

    Like virtually all the neo-conservatives, Feith is deeply committed to Israel; he also has long-term ties to Likud. He wrote articles in the 1990s supporting the settlements and arguing that Israel should retain the Occupied Territories. More important, along with Perle and Wurmser, he wrote the famous ‘Clean Break’ report in June 1996 for Netanyahu, who had just become prime minister. Among other things, it recommended that Netanyahu ‘focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq – an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right’. It also called for Israel to take steps to reorder the entire Middle East. Netanyahu did not follow their advice, but Feith, Perle and Wurmser were soon urging the Bush administration to pursue those same goals. The Ha’aretz columnist Akiva Eldar warned that Feith and Perle ‘are walking a fine line between their loyalty to American governments . . . and Israeli interests’.

    Wolfowitz is equally committed to Israel. The Forward once described him as ‘the most hawkishly pro-Israel voice in the administration’, and selected him in 2002 as first among 50 notables who ‘have consciously pursued Jewish activism’. At about the same time, JINSA gave Wolfowitz its Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award for promoting a strong partnership between Israel and the United States; and the Jerusalem Post, describing him as ‘devoutly pro-Israel’, named him ‘Man of the Year’ in 2003.

    Finally, a brief word is in order about the neo-conservatives’ prewar support of Ahmed Chalabi, the unscrupulous Iraqi exile who headed the Iraqi National Congress. They backed Chalabi because he had established close ties with Jewish-American groups and had pledged to foster good relations with Israel once he gained power. This was precisely what pro-Israel proponents of regime change wanted to hear. Matthew Berger laid out the essence of the bargain in the Jewish Journal: ‘The INC saw improved relations as a way to tap Jewish influence in Washington and Jerusalem and to drum up increased support for its cause. For their part, the Jewish groups saw an opportunity to pave the way for better relations between Israel and Iraq, if and when the INC is involved in replacing Saddam Hussein’s regime.’

    Given the neo-conservatives’ devotion to Israel, their obsession with Iraq, and their influence in the Bush administration, it isn’t surprising that many Americans suspected that the war was designed to further Israeli interests. Last March, Barry Jacobs of the American Jewish Committee acknowledged that the belief that Israel and the neo-conservatives had conspired to get the US into a war in Iraq was ‘pervasive’ in the intelligence community. Yet few people would say so publicly, and most of those who did – including Senator Ernest Hollings and Representative James Moran – were condemned for raising the issue. Michael Kinsley wrote in late 2002 that ‘the lack of public discussion about the role of Israel . . . is the proverbial elephant in the room.’ The reason for the reluctance to talk about it, he observed, was fear of being labelled an anti-semite. There is little doubt that Israel and the Lobby were key factors in the decision to go to war. It’s a decision the US would have been far less likely to take without their efforts. And the war itself was intended to be only the first step. A front-page headline in the Wall Street Journal shortly after the war began says it all: ‘President’s Dream: Changing Not Just Regime but a Region: A Pro-US, Democratic Area Is a Goal that Has Israeli and Neo-Conservative Roots.’

    Pro-Israel forces have long been interested in getting the US military more directly involved in the Middle East. But they had limited success during the Cold War, because America acted as an ‘off-shore balancer’ in the region. Most forces designated for the Middle East, like the Rapid Deployment Force, were kept ‘over the horizon’ and out of harm’s way. The idea was to play local powers off against each other – which is why the Reagan administration supported Saddam against revolutionary Iran during the Iran-Iraq War – in order to maintain a balance favourable to the US.

    This policy changed after the first Gulf War, when the Clinton administration adopted a strategy of ‘dual containment’. Substantial US forces would be stationed in the region in order to contain both Iran and Iraq, instead of one being used to check the other. The father of dual containment was none other than Martin Indyk, who first outlined the strategy in May 1993 at WINEP and then implemented it as director for Near East and South Asian Affairs at the National Security Council.

    By the mid-1990s there was considerable dissatisfaction with dual containment, because it made the United States the mortal enemy of two countries that hated each other, and forced Washington to bear the burden of containing both. But it was a strategy the Lobby favoured and worked actively in Congress to preserve. Pressed by AIPAC and other pro-Israel forces, Clinton toughened up the policy in the spring of 1995 by imposing an economic embargo on Iran. But AIPAC and the others wanted more. The result was the 1996 Iran and Libya Sanctions Act, which imposed sanctions on any foreign companies investing more than $40 million to develop petroleum resources in Iran or Libya. As Ze’ev Schiff, the military correspondent of Ha’aretz, noted at the time, ‘Israel is but a tiny element in the big scheme, but one should not conclude that it cannot influence those within the Beltway.’

    By the late 1990s, however, the neo-conservatives were arguing that dual containment was not enough and that regime change in Iraq was essential. By toppling Saddam and turning Iraq into a vibrant democracy, they argued, the US would trigger a far-reaching process of change throughout the Middle East. The same line of thinking was evident in the ‘Clean Break’ study the neo-conservatives wrote for Netanyahu. By 2002, when an invasion of Iraq was on the front-burner, regional transformation was an article of faith in neo-conservative circles.

    Charles Krauthammer describes this grand scheme as the brainchild of Natan Sharansky, but Israelis across the political spectrum believed that toppling Saddam would alter the Middle East to Israel’s advantage. Aluf Benn reported in Ha’aretz (17 February 2003):

    Senior IDF officers and those close to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, such as National Security Adviser Ephraim Halevy, paint a rosy picture of the wonderful future Israel can expect after the war. They envision a domino effect, with the fall of Saddam Hussein followed by that of Israel’s other enemies . . . Along with these leaders will disappear terror and weapons of mass destruction.

    Once Baghdad fell in mid-April 2003, Sharon and his lieutenants began urging Washington to target Damascus. On 16 April, Sharon, interviewed in Yedioth Ahronoth, called for the United States to put ‘very heavy’ pressure on Syria, while Shaul Mofaz, his defence minister, interviewed in Ma’ariv, said: ‘We have a long list of issues that we are thinking of demanding of the Syrians and it is appropriate that it should be done through the Americans.’ Ephraim Halevy told a WINEP audience that it was now important for the US to get rough with Syria, and the Washington Post reported that Israel was ‘fuelling the campaign’ against Syria by feeding the US intelligence reports about the actions of Bashar Assad, the Syrian president.

    Prominent members of the Lobby made the same arguments. Wolfowitz declared that ‘there has got to be regime change in Syria,’ and Richard Perle told a journalist that ‘a short message, a two-worded message’ could be delivered to other hostile regimes in the Middle East: ‘You’re next.’ In early April, WINEP released a bipartisan report stating that Syria ‘should not miss the message that countries that pursue Saddam’s reckless, irresponsible and defiant behaviour could end up sharing his fate’. On 15 April, Yossi Klein Halevi wrote a piece in the Los Angeles Times entitled ‘Next, Turn the Screws on Syria’, while the following day Zev Chafets wrote an article for the New York Daily News entitled ‘Terror-Friendly Syria Needs a Change, Too’. Not to be outdone, Lawrence Kaplan wrote in the New Republic on 21 April that Assad was a serious threat to America.

    Back on Capitol Hill, Congressman Eliot Engel had reintroduced the Syria Accountability and Lebanese Sovereignty Restoration Act. It threatened sanctions against Syria if it did not withdraw from Lebanon, give up its WMD and stop supporting terrorism, and it also called for Syria and Lebanon to take concrete steps to make peace with Israel. This legislation was strongly endorsed by the Lobby – by AIPAC especially – and ‘framed’, according to the Jewish Telegraph Agency, ‘by some of Israel’s best friends in Congress’. The Bush administration had little enthusiasm for it, but the anti-Syrian act passed overwhelmingly (398 to 4 in the House; 89 to 4 in the Senate), and Bush signed it into law on 12 December 2003.

    The administration itself was still divided about the wisdom of targeting Syria. Although the neo-conservatives were eager to pick a fight with Damascus, the CIA and the State Department were opposed to the idea. And even after Bush signed the new law, he emphasised that he would go slowly in implementing it. His ambivalence is understandable. First, the Syrian government had not only been providing important intelligence about al-Qaida since 9/11: it had also warned Washington about a planned terrorist attack in the Gulf and given CIA interrogators access to Mohammed Zammar, the alleged recruiter of some of the 9/11 hijackers. Targeting the Assad regime would jeopardise these valuable connections, and thereby undermine the larger war on terrorism.

    Second, Syria had not been on bad terms with Washington before the Iraq war (it had even voted for UN Resolution 1441), and was itself no threat to the United States. Playing hardball with it would make the US look like a bully with an insatiable appetite for beating up Arab states. Third, putting Syria on the hit list would give Damascus a powerful incentive to cause trouble in Iraq. Even if one wanted to bring pressure to bear, it made good sense to finish the job in Iraq first. Yet Congress insisted on putting the screws on Damascus, largely in response to pressure from Israeli officials and groups like AIPAC. If there were no Lobby, there would have been no Syria Accountability Act, and US policy towards Damascus would have been more in line with the national interest.

    Israelis tend to describe every threat in the starkest terms, but Iran is widely seen as their most dangerous enemy because it is the most likely to acquire nuclear weapons. Virtually all Israelis regard an Islamic country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons as a threat to their existence. ‘Iraq is a problem . . . But you should understand, if you ask me, today Iran is more dangerous than Iraq,’ the defence minister, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, remarked a month before the Iraq war.

    Sharon began pushing the US to confront Iran in November 2002, in an interview in the Times. Describing Iran as the ‘centre of world terror’, and bent on acquiring nuclear weapons, he declared that the Bush administration should put the strong arm on Iran ‘the day after’ it conquered Iraq. In late April 2003, Ha’aretz reported that the Israeli ambassador in Washington was calling for regime change in Iran. The overthrow of Saddam, he noted, was ‘not enough’. In his words, America ‘has to follow through. We still have great threats of that magnitude coming from Syria, coming from Iran.’

    The neo-conservatives, too, lost no time in making the case for regime change in Tehran. On 6 May, the AEI co-sponsored an all-day conference on Iran with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and the Hudson Institute, both champions of Israel. The speakers were all strongly pro-Israel, and many called for the US to replace the Iranian regime with a democracy. As usual, a bevy of articles by prominent neo-conservatives made the case for going after Iran. ‘The liberation of Iraq was the first great battle for the future of the Middle East . . . But the next great battle – not, we hope, a military battle – will be for Iran,’ William Kristol wrote in the Weekly Standard on 12 May.

    The administration has responded to the Lobby’s pressure by working overtime to shut down Iran’s nuclear programme. But Washington has had little success, and Iran seems determined to create a nuclear arsenal. As a result, the Lobby has intensified its pressure. Op-eds and other articles now warn of imminent dangers from a nuclear Iran, caution against any appeasement of a ‘terrorist’ regime, and hint darkly of preventive action should diplomacy fail. The Lobby is pushing Congress to approve the Iran Freedom Support Act, which would expand existing sanctions. Israeli officials also warn they may take pre-emptive action should Iran continue down the nuclear road, threats partly intended to keep Washington’s attention on the issue.

    One might argue that Israel and the Lobby have not had much influence on policy towards Iran, because the US has its own reasons for keeping Iran from going nuclear. There is some truth in this, but Iran’s nuclear ambitions do not pose a direct threat to the US. If Washington could live with a nuclear Soviet Union, a nuclear China or even a nuclear North Korea, it can live with a nuclear Iran. And that is why the Lobby must keep up constant pressure on politicians to confront Tehran. Iran and the US would hardly be allies if the Lobby did not exist, but US policy would be more temperate and preventive war would not be a serious option.

    It is not surprising that Israel and its American supporters want the US to deal with any and all threats to Israel’s security. If their efforts to shape US policy succeed, Israel’s enemies will be weakened or overthrown, Israel will get a free hand with the Palestinians, and the US will do most of the fighting, dying, rebuilding and paying. But even if the US fails to transform the Middle East and finds itself in conflict with an increasingly radicalised Arab and Islamic world, Israel will end up protected by the world’s only superpower. This is not a perfect outcome from the Lobby’s point of view, but it is obviously preferable to Washington distancing itself, or using its leverage to force Israel to make peace with the Palestinians.

    Can the Lobby’s power be curtailed? One would like to think so, given the Iraq debacle, the obvious need to rebuild America’s image in the Arab and Islamic world, and the recent revelations about AIPAC officials passing US government secrets to Israel. One might also think that Arafat’s death and the election of the more moderate Mahmoud Abbas would cause Washington to press vigorously and even-handedly for a peace agreement. In short, there are ample grounds for leaders to distance themselves from the Lobby and adopt a Middle East policy more consistent with broader US interests. In particular, using American power to achieve a just peace between Israel and the Palestinians would help advance the cause of democracy in the region.

    But that is not going to happen – not soon anyway. AIPAC and its allies (including Christian Zionists) have no serious opponents in the lobbying world. They know it has become more difficult to make Israel’s case today, and they are responding by taking on staff and expanding their activities. Besides, American politicians remain acutely sensitive to campaign contributions and other forms of political pressure, and major media outlets are likely to remain sympathetic to Israel no matter what it does.

    The Lobby’s influence causes trouble on several fronts. It increases the terrorist danger that all states face – including America’s European allies. It has made it impossible to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a situation that gives extremists a powerful recruiting tool, increases the pool of potential terrorists and sympathisers, and contributes to Islamic radicalism in Europe and Asia.

    Equally worrying, the Lobby’s campaign for regime change in Iran and Syria could lead the US to attack those countries, with potentially disastrous effects. We don’t need another Iraq. At a minimum, the Lobby’s hostility towards Syria and Iran makes it almost impossible for Washington to enlist them in the struggle against al-Qaida and the Iraqi insurgency, where their help is badly needed.

    There is a moral dimension here as well. Thanks to the Lobby, the United States has become the de facto enabler of Israeli expansion in the Occupied Territories, making it complicit in the crimes perpetrated against the Palestinians. This situation undercuts Washington’s efforts to promote democracy abroad and makes it look hypocritical when it presses other states to respect human rights. US efforts to limit nuclear proliferation appear equally hypocritical given its willingness to accept Israel’s nuclear arsenal, which only encourages Iran and others to seek a similar capability.

    Besides, the Lobby’s campaign to quash debate about Israel is unhealthy for democracy. Silencing sceptics by organising blacklists and boycotts – or by suggesting that critics are anti-semites – violates the principle of open debate on which democracy depends. The inability of Congress to conduct a genuine debate on these important issues paralyses the entire process of democratic deliberation. Israel’s backers should be free to make their case and to challenge those who disagree with them, but efforts to stifle debate by intimidation must be roundly condemned.

    Finally, the Lobby’s influence has been bad for Israel. Its ability to persuade Washington to support an expansionist agenda has discouraged Israel from seizing opportunities – including a peace treaty with Syria and a prompt and full implementation of the Oslo Accords – that would have saved Israeli lives and shrunk the ranks of Palestinian extremists. Denying the Palestinians their legitimate political rights certainly has not made Israel more secure, and the long campaign to kill or marginalise a generation of Palestinian leaders has empowered extremist groups like Hamas, and reduced the number of Palestinian leaders who would be willing to accept a fair settlement and able to make it work. Israel itself would probably be better off if the Lobby were less powerful and US policy more even-handed.

    There is a ray of hope, however. Although the Lobby remains a powerful force, the adverse effects of its influence are increasingly difficult to hide. Powerful states can maintain flawed policies for quite some time, but reality cannot be ignored for ever. What is needed is a candid discussion of the Lobby’s influence and a more open debate about US interests in this vital region. Israel’s well-being is one of those interests, but its continued occupation of the West Bank and its broader regional agenda are not. Open debate will expose the limits of the strategic and moral case for one-sided US support and could move the US to a position more consistent with its own national interest, with the interests of the other states in the region, and with Israel’s long-term interests as well.

    10 March

    http://papers.ssrn.com/abstract=891198.
    Comment
    • capitalist pig
      SBR MVP
      • 01-25-07
      • 4998

      #72
      Originally posted by ShamsWoof10
      I bet my life on it that if asked five years ago (around the start of the Iraq) war about Iran and their "so called" abilities you would NOT have this opinion... It's 5 years of conditionning that has changed it...

      Sorry sir, Ive been a warmonger since joining the military in 1976. Ive always been of the belief that we should have leveled Iran when Hezbollah did the job on the Marines in Lebanon.

      Pretty good thread here, lots of opinions, but my family has had members serve this country in every major war the US has been involved in, starting with the Civil war through the current Iraq war, and some less known private wars in between. I will never change my beliefs, right or wrong.

      later
      Comment
      • Kerfuffle
        SBR High Roller
        • 01-11-08
        • 143

        #73
        Just wanted to make sure neutral people at SBR realize that Curious is arguing against Arabs/Muslims, and not a random sample of the population.
        Comment
        • curious
          Restricted User
          • 07-20-07
          • 9093

          #74
          I criticize Israel all the time. I criticized them when they had the chance to destroy the war making capability of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan on two different occasions but allowed the bleeding hearts in western europe to intervene so there could be "peace talks". I criticized them for not going after Hezbollah and completely destroying them once and for all when they had the chance. I criticized them for allowing the terrorist Arafat to walk around a free man all those years.

          And I criticize them now for not totally destroying Hamas and Fatah, but allowing these terrorist organizations to "rule" the hell holes they created in Gaza and the West Bank.

          Who says you can't criticize Israel?
          Comment
          • curious
            Restricted User
            • 07-20-07
            • 9093

            #75
            Originally posted by Kerfuffle
            Just wanted to make sure neutral people at SBR realize that Curious is arguing against Arabs/Muslims, and not a random sample of the population.
            Like I said, I am posting facts, I am not arguing. The nutjobs just crawl out of he woodwork whenever I post anything on here. Not sure why.
            Comment
            • BuddyBear
              SBR Hall of Famer
              • 08-10-05
              • 7233

              #76
              Originally posted by curious
              Actually there is a solution. The murderers in Gaza who fire rockets into civilian centers in Israel on a daily basis should be brought to justice and the U.N. should make it crystal clear to the nutjobs in Gaza that their behavior will no longer be tolerated and they will get NOTHING more from the U.N. until they stop these attacks.

              Then perhaps the people in Gaza and the West Bank will start building a nation and stop living a life based on victimhood.
              Hmm...for every 1 Israeli that dies by violence, 300 Palestinians die.

              You tell me who the murderers are
              Comment
              • ShamsWoof10
                SBR MVP
                • 11-15-06
                • 4827

                #77
                Originally posted by curious
                You must be high today. I said Israel has over 65 nukes. I said Iran is trying to obtain nukes. Not sure what you are talking about.
                ARE YOU F*CIN' BLIND or DID YOU GET DU sickness in the first one...?

                WHAT THE F*CK IS WRONG WITH YOU ?????

                THIS IS YOUR QUOTE THEREFORE ..YOOOOOOOOOOU SAID IT....

                Originally posted by curious
                Iran possesses 65 nuclear weapons and if pushed to use them, they will.
                Comment
                • curious
                  Restricted User
                  • 07-20-07
                  • 9093

                  #78
                  Originally posted by BuddyBear
                  Hmm...for every 1 Israeli that dies by violence, 300 Palestinians die.

                  You tell me who the murderers are
                  "...for every 1 Israeli that dies by violence, 300 Palestinians die"
                  That is an out and out lie.

                  EVERY place where the Muslim side has stopped shooting into Israel, the IDF has withdrawn and does not carry out offensive operations.

                  If the nutjobs in Gaza would stop firing rockets into Israel, the IDF would leave them alone.

                  So, you tell me, what would have the Israelis do in the face of daily rocket attacks from Gaza?
                  Comment
                  • curious
                    Restricted User
                    • 07-20-07
                    • 9093

                    #79
                    Originally posted by ShamsWoof10
                    ARE YOU F*CIN' BLIND or DID YOU GET DU sickness in the first one...?

                    WHAT THE F*CK IS WRONG WITH YOU ?????

                    THIS IS YOUR QUOTE THEREFORE ..YOOOOOOOOOOU SAID IT....



                    A typo, should have said Israel.
                    Comment
                    • Kerfuffle
                      SBR High Roller
                      • 01-11-08
                      • 143

                      #80
                      Originally posted by curious
                      So, you tell me, what would have the Israelis do in the face of daily rocket attacks from Gaza?

                      Good try, Curious.

                      This is something an Arab/Moslem will never answer directly.

                      This is when they will tell you how the entire world supports them.
                      Comment
                      • donjuan
                        SBR MVP
                        • 08-29-07
                        • 3993

                        #81
                        Thor,

                        Does the term "exchange rate" mean anything to you?

                        Buddy Bear,

                        While it's great to say they should all just move to the US, many of these people have lived a large portion or all of their lives in Israel. It's their home.

                        The first step is clearly for Israel to withdraw all settlements and stop expanding them. That just drives me nuts. Now, eliminating the settlements alone won't do much but it's the first step, IMO.
                        Comment
                        • donjuan
                          SBR MVP
                          • 08-29-07
                          • 3993

                          #82
                          So, you tell me, what would have the Israelis do in the face of daily rocket attacks from Gaza?
                          Vote in a government who will withdraw the settlements and arrest anyone who does not leave.
                          Comment
                          • curious
                            Restricted User
                            • 07-20-07
                            • 9093

                            #83
                            Originally posted by Kerfuffle
                            Good try, Curious.

                            This is something an Arab/Moslem will never answer directly.

                            This is when they will tell you how the entire world supports them.
                            The true position of these people is obvious. The reason that it is okay for the Palestinians to murder Israelis is that Israel does not have the right to exist. And when Israel tries to defend itself, their self defense is "murder" is due to the same attitude. Israel does not have the right to exist.

                            It was interesting to me during the height of the Katrina disaster, that an upper class "liberal" suburb of NO called out its auxiliary police, not to help the poor black people who were desperately trying to cross the bridge to get help, but to set up an armed roadblock and turn these people back.

                            I bring this up because I think this shows what these bleeding heart liberals would do if people were firing rockets into their neighborhood.
                            Comment
                            • durito
                              SBR Posting Legend
                              • 07-03-06
                              • 13173

                              #84
                              Originally posted by Kerfuffle
                              You
                              buddybare
                              Thor
                              OGLC slayer
                              Maybe dorito

                              Only Arabs/moslems would write the stuff you guys are writing.

                              sweet, now i'm a "Arab/moslem"

                              i don't recall even expressing an opinion in this thread, though i'm sure if I did you would remove the maybe.

                              Odds Kerfuffle is Curious:

                              Yes -800
                              No +600
                              Comment
                              • Kerfuffle
                                SBR High Roller
                                • 01-11-08
                                • 143

                                #85
                                Originally posted by curious
                                The true position of these people is obvious. The reason that it is okay for the Palestinians to murder Israelis is that Israel does not have the right to exist. And when Israel tries to defend itself, their self defense is "murder" is due to the same attitude. Israel does not have the right to exist.

                                It was interesting to me during the height of the Katrina disaster, that an upper class "liberal" suburb of NO called out its auxiliary police, not to help the poor black people who were desperately trying to cross the bridge to get help, but to set up an armed roadblock and turn these people back.

                                I bring this up because I think this shows what these bleeding heart liberals would do if people were firing rockets into their neighborhood.
                                Yes.
                                To further what you say, Nasser, the president of Egypt, said at the beginning of the 6-day war that "we will drive the Jews into the sea"

                                The words of a madman, the president of an Arab state.
                                Comment
                                • ShamsWoof10
                                  SBR MVP
                                  • 11-15-06
                                  • 4827

                                  #86
                                  DAILY ROCKET ATTACKS..???

                                  How many times do I need to say it... You f*ckin' people are clueless... Please stick to Sports or American Idol... You do the samething there anyway... Most of you repeat EXACTLY what ESPN says anyway so why am I so surprised...

                                  Comment
                                  • ShamsWoof10
                                    SBR MVP
                                    • 11-15-06
                                    • 4827

                                    #87
                                    Originally posted by durito
                                    sweet, now i'm a "Arab/moslem"

                                    i don't recall even expressing an opinion in this thread, though i'm sure if I did you would remove the maybe.

                                    Odds Kerfuffle is Curious:

                                    Yes -800
                                    No +600
                                    Yeah I agree this KerFuk is a ghost and it's pretty obvious.. There is no substance to his posts he is just trying to instigate... With this place who knows it could be another SBR ghost tied to more of their games...

                                    Comment
                                    • JC
                                      SBR Sharp
                                      • 08-23-05
                                      • 481

                                      #88
                                      Curious,

                                      I applaud your explanation of the formation of Israel and the second state that never became.

                                      A few thoughts and questions.

                                      If Iran is a threat to Israel, aren't they capable of handling it on their own? Shouldn't we leave it to them?

                                      Who is the US or the UN to say who can and who can not have WMD's? Why the double standards?

                                      You say Iran has been at war with the US since 79. Wasn't it the West (UK and US) that declared war on the Iranian peopple in the early 50's when they orchestrated a coup and installed that asswipe known as The Shah? Even if they weren't behind the coup, didn't we support that fascist for years even though he did not have popular support? Did he commit a crime or two against humanity himself in his day?

                                      If Carter never let the Shah into the country for medical treatment, do you think the embassy situation would have happened?

                                      Once the Shah was tossed, was it clear the new regime was hostile to the US? If so, why did they maintain an embassy presence, why didnt they pack up and leave?

                                      You talk about stopping holocausts before they happen. That's all noble and good. However, there are holocausts occuring as we speak in Africa and the US doesn't do a thing about it. Shouldn't we be consistent?

                                      There are daily human rights violations in China. It's bad enough the US does nothing about it. Shouldn't they at a minimum stop doing business with China?
                                      Comment
                                      • cobra_king
                                        SBR MVP
                                        • 08-07-06
                                        • 2491

                                        #89
                                        Originally posted by curious
                                        Like I said, I am posting facts, I am not arguing. The nutjobs just crawl out of he woodwork whenever I post anything on here. Not sure why.


                                        I don't consider myself a nutjob, or a "bleeding heart" but the reason why people come out of the wordwork is that you choose to either ignore, or don't know all the facts. I have come out of the "woodwork" to post in this thread because as a Canadian i was insulted by you telling Canada to "phuck off" because we didn't support your war against the Islamic Jihadists yet at least once a week one of our soldiers comes home in a bodybag from Afghanistan from fighting...........Islamic Jihadists. So you can see why sometimes it's hard to take your "facts" as gospel.
                                        Comment
                                        • pavyracer
                                          SBR Aristocracy
                                          • 04-12-07
                                          • 82839

                                          #90
                                          Originally posted by purecarnagge
                                          Isreal's military is nothing to joke about. There spec ops area is just as good if not better than ours. I'm sure we have elite units better than theres, but on a wideranging scale, there spec ops is very good... GB SAS and American Delta/Beret quality.
                                          Israel's army is a joke actually. They have already admitted that the operation against Hezbollah was a failure and that their elite soldiers were no match for Hezbollah's civilian untrained fighters (we call them terrorists). They couldn't defend themselves against hit or miss scud missiles of Saddam during Gulf War. They will have a hard time attacking Iran due to distance and their white soldiers will die in 120 degree weather if they ever manage to airlift an operable division to Iran border to attack. Iran's S-300 russian made anti-aircraft missiles and chinese made anti-naval missiles can dessimate their F-16's and F-15's before they cross the Iraq border and their navy can be destroyed once they exit the Red Sea to attack Iran from the Arabian Sea.

                                          The only success that the Israel army had is shooting missiles from Apache helicopters against cars and brick houses in Gaza. I will give them credit for that. They have also attacked one of our destroyers in the 60's while being in international waters with the american flag displayed prominently.
                                          Comment
                                          • BuddyBear
                                            SBR Hall of Famer
                                            • 08-10-05
                                            • 7233

                                            #91
                                            Well the 300-1 ratio is from a presidential candidates' website. It may be for a specific segment of the conflict, but there are a disproportionate number of Palestinians who are being murdered by Israel regularly. That part is undeniable.

                                            Here are statistics from an Israeli group's website: http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...Casualties.asp

                                            But casualities are not the issue. Everyone knows that the hands of Israel are soaked with blood. The problem is that the U.S. citizenry is truly ill informed about the situation in Israel. There is no way that people in the United States would condone what Israel does if they truly knew what was going on. Every Israeli prime minister is a war criminal. Every day Israel is in violation of several international treaties and agreements. These are all facts....

                                            The U.S. government/congress is so controlled by zionist influneces it's not even funny anymore.

                                            For example, the U.S. position is that no more new settlements should be built. Yet, new settlements are being built daily. How can someone possibly explain this? The world's super power the U.S. repeatedly tells Israel to stop with something, yet they keep doing it to no end and the U.S. keeps sending them billions of dollars, weapons, and diplomacy???? What on earth does Israel do for the United States...the answer is absolutely nothing.

                                            The U.S. has no obligation to Israel whatsoever yet is forced to support them b/c the lobby is so influential in this country

                                            Fellows, look around you....on every issue in this country there is major debate. Even something like global warming engenders passionate debate by the Congress. With Israel...not a word of disagreement among Dem, Reps, liberals, conservaties, etc... How can somone explain this phenomenon??? It's all zionist money that controls the puppets in Congress.

                                            Consequently, the news media has a major slant. Almost no news personality dares to criticize Israel. And then the major idiots like Curious eat it up and spit it right back out...this is the process of being brainwashed.

                                            Take a long look around you outside the U.S.....Israel is hardly seen as a saint like it is here.
                                            Comment
                                            • Kerfuffle
                                              SBR High Roller
                                              • 01-11-08
                                              • 143

                                              #92
                                              Add pavyracer to the Arab/Moslem list.

                                              He is special and deserves one of these, as he has attended enough Baghdad Bob lectures to qualify.


                                              Click image for larger version

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                                              Comment
                                              • Kerfuffle
                                                SBR High Roller
                                                • 01-11-08
                                                • 143

                                                #93
                                                Originally posted by BuddyBear
                                                Well the 300-1 ratio is from a presidential candidates' website. It may be for a specific segment of the conflict, but there are a disproportionate number of Palestinians who are being murdered by Israel regularly. That part is undeniable.

                                                Here are statistics from an Israeli group's website: http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...Casualties.asp

                                                But casualities are not the issue. Everyone knows that the hands of Israel are soaked with blood. The problem is that the U.S. citizenry is truly ill informed about the situation in Israel. There is no way that people in the United States would condone what Israel does if they truly knew what was going on. Every Israeli prime minister is a war criminal. Every day Israel is in violation of several international treaties and agreements. These are all facts....

                                                The U.S. government/congress is so controlled by zionist influneces it's not even funny anymore.

                                                For example, the U.S. position is that no more new settlements should be built. Yet, new settlements are being built daily. How can someone possibly explain this? The world's super power the U.S. repeatedly tells Israel to stop with something, yet they keep doing it to no end and the U.S. keeps sending them billions of dollars, weapons, and diplomacy???? What on earth does Israel do for the United States...the answer is absolutely nothing.

                                                The U.S. has no obligation to Israel whatsoever yet is forced to support them b/c the lobby is so influential in this country

                                                Fellows, look around you....on every issue in this country there is major debate. Even something like global warming engenders passionate debate by the Congress. With Israel...not a word of disagreement among Dem, Reps, liberals, conservaties, etc... How can somone explain this phenomenon??? It's all zionist money that controls the puppets in Congress.

                                                Consequently, the news media has a major slant. Almost no news personality dares to criticize Israel. And then the major idiots like Curious eat it up and spit it right back out...this is the process of being brainwashed.

                                                Take a long look around you outside the U.S.....Israel is hardly seen as a saint like it is here.

                                                Arab/Moslem view of the world.
                                                Comment
                                                • ShamsWoof10
                                                  SBR MVP
                                                  • 11-15-06
                                                  • 4827

                                                  #94
                                                  Originally posted by pavyracer
                                                  Israel's army is a joke actually. They have already admitted that the operation against Hezbollah was a failure and that their elite soldiers were no match fro Hezbollah's civilian untrained fighters (we call them terrorists). They couldn't defend themselves against hit or miss scud missiles of Saddam during Gulf War. They will have a hard time attacking Iran due to distance and their white soldiers will die in 120 degree weather if they ever manage to airlift an operable division to Iran border to attack. Iran's S-300 russian made anti-aircraft missiles and chinese made anti-naval missiles can dessimate their F-16's and F-15's before they cross the Iraq border and their navy can be destroyed once they exit the Red Sea to attack Iran from the Arabian Sea.

                                                  They only success that the Israel army had is shooting missiles from Apache helicopters against cars and brick houses in Gaza. I will give them credit for that.
                                                  Interesting.......

                                                  IMO you are correct all around here however you should add that their intelligence agency (Mossad) WOOOOFS harder then any other... Also it does help that they are supplied by the US in terms of not only money but in military goods from aircraft to tanks as well... I would think this has to help...

                                                  Not that anyone in the forum will remember my stance because I am labled anyway and that to them is all they need BUT...

                                                  FOR THE RECORD!!!! I do not think the people of Isreal or any of the Arab countries people are at fault here... I think they both are fed propaganda as you foooos are by corporate CONTROLLED MEDIA AND YES THIS INCLUDES AL JAZZERIA... There is another purpose here and Isreal along with it's neighbors are... well.... in the way...

                                                  Let me ask you idiots a question... There is a "Mediterian Union" being formed and the first three members are going to be "Lebanon" "Isreal" and "Syria"... Condi refered to it as "The New Middle East" three years ago... First off how can two countries who are going at it be convinced to JOIN A UNION TOGETHER and second why is this not spot lighted in the media..?

                                                  Comment
                                                  • BuddyBear
                                                    SBR Hall of Famer
                                                    • 08-10-05
                                                    • 7233

                                                    #95
                                                    Why even waste time talking about this topic...it's never ending and not going to be solved in our lifetimes.

                                                    Both sides are wrong...Just Israel happens to be more wrong.
                                                    Comment
                                                    • curious
                                                      Restricted User
                                                      • 07-20-07
                                                      • 9093

                                                      #96
                                                      Originally posted by ShamsWoof10
                                                      Yeah I agree this KerFuk is a ghost and it's pretty obvious.. There is no substance to his posts he is just trying to instigate... With this place who knows it could be another SBR ghost tied to more of their games...

                                                      This makes about the 100th time you assholes have accused me of having ghost accounts. I have never had a ghost account, never will have a ghost account.

                                                      I don't need a ghost account, I say what I think and I stand up for myself to assholes.
                                                      Comment
                                                      • curious
                                                        Restricted User
                                                        • 07-20-07
                                                        • 9093

                                                        #97
                                                        Originally posted by BuddyBear
                                                        Why even waste time talking about this topic...it's never ending and not going to be solved in our lifetimes.

                                                        Both sides are wrong...Just Israel happens to be more wrong.
                                                        I do agree with you on that point. Talking with most of the idiots in here is a waste of time.
                                                        Comment
                                                        • ShamsWoof10
                                                          SBR MVP
                                                          • 11-15-06
                                                          • 4827

                                                          #98
                                                          Originally posted by BuddyBear
                                                          it's never ending and not going to be solved in our lifetimes.
                                                          I wouldn't be too sure about that BB...

                                                          Originally posted by curious
                                                          This makes about the 100th time you assholes have accused me of having ghost accounts. I have never had a ghost account, never will have a ghost account.

                                                          I don't need a ghost account, I say what I think and I stand up for myself to assholes.
                                                          Curious.. you should quote someone else because I NEVER said you were a ghost... I've actually claimed that you likely DIDN'T have a ghost in the past...

                                                          Comment
                                                          • Kerfuffle
                                                            SBR High Roller
                                                            • 01-11-08
                                                            • 143

                                                            #99
                                                            Originally posted by BuddyBear
                                                            Why even waste time talking about this topic...it's never ending and not going to be solved in our lifetimes.

                                                            Both sides are wrong...Just Israel happens to be more wrong.

                                                            Arab/Muslim view of the world.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • curious
                                                              Restricted User
                                                              • 07-20-07
                                                              • 9093

                                                              #100
                                                              Originally posted by BuddyBear
                                                              Well the 300-1 ratio is from a presidential candidates' website. It may be for a specific segment of the conflict, but there are a disproportionate number of Palestinians who are being murdered by Israel regularly. That part is undeniable.

                                                              Here are statistics from an Israeli group's website: http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...Casualties.asp

                                                              But casualities are not the issue. Everyone knows that the hands of Israel are soaked with blood. The problem is that the U.S. citizenry is truly ill informed about the situation in Israel. There is no way that people in the United States would condone what Israel does if they truly knew what was going on. Every Israeli prime minister is a war criminal. Every day Israel is in violation of several international treaties and agreements. These are all facts....

                                                              The U.S. government/congress is so controlled by zionist influneces it's not even funny anymore.

                                                              For example, the U.S. position is that no more new settlements should be built. Yet, new settlements are being built daily. How can someone possibly explain this? The world's super power the U.S. repeatedly tells Israel to stop with something, yet they keep doing it to no end and the U.S. keeps sending them billions of dollars, weapons, and diplomacy???? What on earth does Israel do for the United States...the answer is absolutely nothing.

                                                              The U.S. has no obligation to Israel whatsoever yet is forced to support them b/c the lobby is so influential in this country

                                                              Fellows, look around you....on every issue in this country there is major debate. Even something like global warming engenders passionate debate by the Congress. With Israel...not a word of disagreement among Dem, Reps, liberals, conservaties, etc... How can somone explain this phenomenon??? It's all zionist money that controls the puppets in Congress.

                                                              Consequently, the news media has a major slant. Almost no news personality dares to criticize Israel. And then the major idiots like Curious eat it up and spit it right back out...this is the process of being brainwashed.

                                                              Take a long look around you outside the U.S.....Israel is hardly seen as a saint like it is here.
                                                              I guess you would be happier if the Israelis had sat around singing kumbaya (spelling?) while the Muslim armies launched their wars of genocide in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. And they should have just sat around while the PLO carried out their 50 year war to fulfill their goals of "annihilating the Jews...".
                                                              Comment
                                                              • ShamsWoof10
                                                                SBR MVP
                                                                • 11-15-06
                                                                • 4827

                                                                #101
                                                                Originally posted by Kerfuffle
                                                                Arab/Muslim view of the world.
                                                                Hey GHOST... why not put my stance in quote and label it "Arab/Muslim view of the world" so you can reallllly look even more stupid...

                                                                Comment
                                                                • curious
                                                                  Restricted User
                                                                  • 07-20-07
                                                                  • 9093

                                                                  #102
                                                                  Originally posted by JC
                                                                  Curious,

                                                                  I applaud your explanation of the formation of Israel and the second state that never became.

                                                                  A few thoughts and questions.

                                                                  If Iran is a threat to Israel, aren't they capable of handling it on their own? Shouldn't we leave it to them?
                                                                  They are capable of handling it on their own. We would leave it to them except for the small detail that Iran is fighting a war against us in Iraq. Personally, I think the hysteria about Iran is overblown. My main point is that Iran appears to be trying to attain offensive missile weaponry. They have threatened to use such weapons. If they do what they have said they are gonig to do they will be destroyed, probably by Israel. Perhaps by Israel and the US acting in concert. Several on here have said I am "brainwashed" and that Iran does not intend to carry out the threats they have made. If that is true then there will be no problem. I don't believe that though.

                                                                  Who is the US or the UN to say who can and who can not have WMD's? Why the double standards?
                                                                  You have a point here. Except, when the President of a country threatens another country with genocide and then states that his country will obtain nuclear weapons and they have a right to these weapons. Well, that has to change things. There is a process that a country which wishes to obtain nuclear weapons can follow. There are treaties to sign, organizations to join. Iran has refused to do any of that. I guess that is why you see a "double standard".

                                                                  You say Iran has been at war with the US since 79. Wasn't it the West (UK and US) that declared war on the Iranian peopple in the early 50's when they orchestrated a coup and installed that asswipe known as The Shah? Even if they weren't behind the coup, didn't we support that fascist for years even though he did not have popular support? Did he commit a crime or two against humanity himself in his day?
                                                                  I don't dispute that. That doesn't change the fact that we are at war, only changed the start date of the war, in your opinion.

                                                                  If Carter never let the Shah into the country for medical treatment, do you think the embassy situation would have happened?
                                                                  I think the nutjobs in Iran would have done something provocative no matter what. Carter sat by while the French put the Ayatollah into play. That could have been stopped. But Carter was too busy ruining the US economy to care.

                                                                  Once the Shah was tossed, was it clear the new regime was hostile to the US? If so, why did they maintain an embassy presence, why didnt they pack up and leave?
                                                                  You wil have to ask peanut head Carter that one. You seem to be saying "since you didn't evacuate the embassy in the face of known hostility it is your fault your embassy was illegally occupied and your people kidnapped". Regardless of whether or not the Iranian nutjobs were hostile, it was our embassy and up to us what to do inside it.

                                                                  You talk about stopping holocausts before they happen. That's all noble and good. However, there are holocausts occuring as we speak in Africa and the US doesn't do a thing about it. Shouldn't we be consistent?
                                                                  Absolutely. I would firmly support military action to stop genocide anywhere it rears its ugly head. Even if it was totally unilateral military action. I have always believed that.

                                                                  There are daily human rights violations in China. It's bad enough the US does nothing about it. Shouldn't they at a minimum stop doing business with China?
                                                                  We should have never started doing business with China in the first place. We have messers Nixon, Kissinger, Carter, and Clinton to thank for that one. You can thank the Clintonistas for giving China most favored nation trading status. I would support an immediate and total ban on all commercial dealings with China.
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • Thor4140
                                                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                                                    • 02-09-08
                                                                    • 22296

                                                                    #103
                                                                    Originally posted by donjuan
                                                                    Thor,

                                                                    Does the term "exchange rate" mean anything to you?

                                                                    Buddy Bear,

                                                                    While it's great to say they should all just move to the US, many of these people have lived a large portion or all of their lives in Israel. It's their home.

                                                                    The first step is clearly for Israel to withdraw all settlements and stop expanding them. That just drives me nuts. Now, eliminating the settlements alone won't do much but it's the first step, IMO.
                                                                    I was mislead about the 17dollars an hour. I heard that about a year ago from a guy who has always been spot on. I research it about a year ago and i guess i saw the same article he did. My bad
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • Thor4140
                                                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                                                      • 02-09-08
                                                                      • 22296

                                                                      #104
                                                                      What is a Palestinian

                                                                      Shaker Abdul-Fattah is a Palestinian refugee who still holds the titles to his orange orchards. Both his parents died in the Diaspora. They never saw their home again. When asked, what is a Palestinian, he answered: "A Palestinian is a person whose forefathers lived in Palestine for thousands of years. A Palestinian owned the land. He cultivated and loved his land. His ancestors are buried there. His history and heritage dwells there.

                                                                      No one lived in Palestine more than the Palestinians did. No one loves the land more than the Palestinians do. A Palestinian sacrifices his life for his country. The one who wants to know more can study the history of Palestine. Palestinians are incredibly strong like Samson. They grow from the ground like their trees. They will never disappear. One day the Jews will all flee Palestine and some of them already have." One of the schemes of the early Zionists was to make Palestine look like a land without a people for a people without a land. Today, part of Zionist propaganda is the rewriting of history and to make it look like there is no such thing as a Palestinian.
                                                                      But Palestine has always been populated from the beginning of man's sojourn on this earth. Palestinians are descended from the ancient Canaanites and Philistines. In the 3rd millennium BC, the Canaanites became urbanized and lived in city-states, one of which was Jericho. Later on, the Philistines established an independent state on the southern coast of Palestine and controlled a number of towns in the north and the east. Because they were superior in military organization and were skilled in using iron weapons, they drastically defeated the Hebrew people around 1050 BC who had either migrated to the area or been led out of Egypt by the Prophet Moses.
                                                                      Palestine, regardless of the empires that have swept through it, has always been Palestinian. The indigenous people remained on the land and blended with the people of the occupying powers. The name of Palestine is derived from the Philistines.
                                                                      The Muslim conquest began 1300 years of Islamic rule. Palestine was holy to the Muslims because God had designated Jerusalem to be the first Qibla or the direction that Muslims face when praying and also because Prophet Mohammed ascended on a night journey to heaven from where the Dome of the Rock was later built. The Muslim rulers did not force their religion on the Palestinians and this is why more than 100 years passed before the majority of them converted to Islam. The remaining Christians and Jews were considered to be the "People of the Book," so they were allowed to retain autonomous control of their communities. They were guaranteed protection and they were free to worship as they pleased. Such religious tolerance has been rare in the history of religion. Most of the Palestinians adopted Arabic and Islamic culture.
                                                                      During the height of the Islamic empire, Palestine shared a golden age of science, philosophy, art and literature. It was the Muslims who preserved Greek learning and excelled in many fields. Such mastering of the sciences led to the Renaissance in Europe.
                                                                      Hebrew rule in Palestine was intermittent. In 63 BC Pompey stormed Jerusalem and in AD 135, the Romans put an end to Jewish Palestine by destroying Jerusalem. From this time, the Jewish community in Palestine almost ceased to exist. When the Christian Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099, they burned the Jews in their synagogue. It was only when Saladin the Muslim conqueror retook the city in 1187, that Jews were allowed to return.
                                                                      The first Jews to return came from Spain in 1492 as a result of the Spanish Inquisition under Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand. Until this time, the Jews had lived peacefully under Muslim rule in Spain. In 1845, there were only 12,000 Jews in Palestine out of a population of about 350,000 and in 1922, the Jews made up only a little more than one tenth of the population of Palestine.
                                                                      The Zionists claim that Palestine is historically theirs and that this historic right provides the justification for the state of Israel. When the state of Israel was proclaimed in 1948 it was allegedly because "by virtue of the natural and historic right of the Jewish people." One of the bases for Zionist claims to Palestine is the extent of the Kingdom of David and Solomon, which lasted for only 73 years. Much of the land that the Zionists claim as exclusively theirs has been predominantly populated by Jews for less than one percent of its history.
                                                                      In 1948, the famous writer H.G. Wells wrote about this false historical claim as, "If it is proper to 'reconstitute' a Jewish state which has not existed for two thousand years, why not go back another thousand years and reconstitute the Canaanite state. The Canaanites, unlike the Jews are still there." Joseph Farah, the Zionist CEO of World Net claims that Palestinians are "whatever Yasser Arafat wants them to be." But this is like saying Americans are whatever George Bush wants them to be. Whether Bush is in power or not, an American is still an American and regardless of who Arafat is or is not, if he is in power or not, a Palestinian was and is a Palestinian. A rose by any other name is still a rose.
                                                                      Farah also claims that there hardly ever were any Palestinians and that most of the Arabs within Palestine are those who flocked there because of business incentives or the prospects of a better living. What is happening in Palestine right now is ample proof that no one would choose to "flock" to Palestine when life is so much easier elsewhere.
                                                                      On the contrary, it is the Jews who flocked to Palestine from the late 1800s up to the present time. These Jews have no historical claim to the land that is not theirs. Yet they continue their aggression against the Palestinian civilians with the hopes that they will either kill them off or drive them out.
                                                                      Since Jews are no longer a race of people, but a people who follow Judaism, the idea of ingathering Jews from all over the world to live in Palestine is ludicrous to say the least. A Jew coming from the Bronx or from Russia has no valid claim to Palestine, yet, any Jew who wishes to live in Palestine is free to do so while the native population is either forced to live outside in the Diaspora or inside under constant bombardment.
                                                                      What is a Palestinian? A Palestinian is the original inhabitant of his land and country. His forefathers lived and died on this consecrated soil. Palestine lives in every Palestinian heart and mind and like their trees, Palestinians grow from the ground.
                                                                      They are resolute, they are strong and their courage is a wondrous example for all men wishing to be free.
                                                                      They are the infant Palestinian Davids fighting for their liberty against the heavily armed Jewish war state.
                                                                      Comment
                                                                      • pavyracer
                                                                        SBR Aristocracy
                                                                        • 04-12-07
                                                                        • 82839

                                                                        #105
                                                                        [ATTACH]2111[/ATTACH]
                                                                        Comment
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