Fishhead: Any edges at the Roulette table?

[milwaukee mike]

blackjack is the ONLY game you can play against the house and have a mathematical edge at times, why play anything else except for fun?

even if you're not counting cards the house edge is only .5% - you can easily turn that positive with comps in the right casino

[big0mar]

Don't pass/Don't come in craps gives you the best odds against the house.

[slimpickins]

Only good thing about roulette is you get the best comps.
Specificly if betting red/black or the columns.
Your bets will be rather large per spin as most tables have a $25 minimum per spin.

Play for a couple of hours breaking even and you will get free hotel stays quickly.
I have never lost or won more than $1k at roulette and usually am plus minus $100 for the night at the game yet at one time could stay in the Indian or Vegas Hotels of my choice from playing this game.
Likewise have spent much more time and lost or won much more money on blackjack and barely received any comps for it.
Poker rooms are the worst for comps BTW.

I am sure it is becuase the house edge is higher on roulette so they know long term they will win.

[milwaukee mike]

Don't pass/Don't come in craps gives you the best odds against the house.

that's not true
not even true in craps, 100x odds gives you house edge of only .0021% whereas don't pass is 1.36% not even close to as good as standard blackjack house edge of around .4% if the dealer stands on soft 17


"There is some disagreement about the house edge on the don't pass. The following return table shows all the possible outcomes. The lower right cell shows a house edge of 1.36%. Some gambling books state the house edge is 1.40%. This is the expected loss per bet resolved. In other words it ignores ties. Today, most gambling writers, including me, count ties, and thus would go with 1.36% as the house edge.
Don't Pass Return TableEventPaysCombinationsProbabilityRet urnWin19490.4792930.479293Push0550.02777 80Lose-19760.492929-0.492929Total19801-0.013636"

[odusmykal]

put 10.00 on every red except 5 & 32 , put 170 on black , 0,5,32 will lose all your money , all others make money , know need to try this at a live casino , you WILL be asked to leave...

i have a friend who told me about this system a few years ago.. I never put much thought into it though.. Now that i'm hearing it again, i may do a lil research and see if its worth trying.. Thanks for reminding me about it..

[Ralphie Halves]

Roulette spinners are creatures of habit. They get in a groove throwing the ball and spinning the wheel the same way every time. If you can notice their rhythm you can have a pretty good idea where the ball will end up.

Not this.

The Labouchere system was made oringinally for roulette. If you can find a single 0 table, use the system, not get kicked out for doing it, and bring a large enough bankroll to the table to absorb the bad runs, it will absolutely work. I got a warning from Bodog casino for doing it with dollar craps when I was bored one day.

[Kaabee]

put 10.00 on every red except 5 & 32 , put 170 on black , 0,5,32 will lose all your money , all others make money , know need to try this at a live casino , you WILL be asked to leave...

hit winning red 16/37 for $30 profit
hit black 18/37 for $10 profit
hit 0,5,32 3/37 for $330 loss

on average over 37 spins that's a loss of $330 or $8.92 per spin. 8.92/330 = 2.7%. imagine that.

[saints7011]

hit winning red 16/37 for $30 profit
hit black 18/37 for $10 profit
hit 0,5,32 3/37 for $330 loss

on average over 37 spins that's a loss of $330 or $8.92 per spin. 8.92/330 = 2.7%. imagine that.

your numbers are accurate , but read everything I've said and you will walk away a happy man...again though , they will not allow these bets...

[saints7011]

i have a friend who told me about this system a few years ago.. I never put much thought into it though.. Now that i'm hearing it again, i may do a lil research and see if its worth trying.. Thanks for reminding me about it..

not sure if you're a mckinley fan or if you're from SC , but the 5 of us are out of SC...

[KKoz9]

game has worst odds for player of any in casino

[ElCapitan]

On a single zero wheel, ALL bets have a house edge of 2.7%, on a double zero wheel, all bets except the 0-00-1-2-3 have a 5.26% house edge. The0-00-1-2-3 has a 7.89% edge.

Could someone explain to me how the 5 numbers (0-00-1-2-3) have a higher house edge than the rest?

[saints7011]

Could someone explain to me how the 5 numbers (0-00-1-2-3) have a higher house edge than the rest?

if someone messages you the answer , please forward it to me , I would like to know also...

[Kaabee]

exstatman is speaking of playing the numbers together (basket bet) it pays 6 to 1. the edge is like he said

[Ralphie Halves]

game has worst odds for player of any in casino

Roulette? Not by a long shot. Most tabled poker games, Big 6 Wheel, Keno (Rape-o), all have inherently worse odds. Then there are sucker bets galore everywhere you play that can have up to 45% house edge.

I'm telling you guys, look into Labouchere and please stop all the silly voodoo talk about predicting the spin of the ball and how certain #s hit more than others. If any of it is in fact true, its discrepancies are tiny and insignificant.

[QuantumLeap]

Not this.

Try talking to some people who actually have worked as a person at a roulette table and get back to me. My advice is based upon testimony from those people. And your opinion is based upon what? Two words? Please!

One guy said he could hit the same number several times in a row if he wanted to.

[SCRAGGS]

I thought the unbalanced wheel went out in the 80's.

it did so did fishhead

[Ralphie Halves]

Try talking to some people who actually have worked as a person at a roulette table and get back to me. My advice is based upon testimony from those people. And your opinion is based upon what? Two words? Please!

One guy said he could hit the same number several times in a row if he wanted to.

Testimonials from a guy who said he could hit the same # multiple times in a row. Not a strong argument for anything, and not realistic advice. Even if it were true (I've heard of dealers hitting quadrants with frequency as long as the ball doesn't bounce around too much, but to not have that factor in is rare), your advice to the player is what?? Time the dealer's rhythm?? Just like that, huh? You can't be serious.

Degenerates looking for some kind of edge on a house game like roulette are going to need a disciplined, structured approach or else there's no chance. Trying to time a dealer with a wheel spinning the other way and nothing constant in the entire equation is best reserved for the movies.

[milwaukee mike]

No betting system including the "Labouchere" system can ever be a consistent winner in Roulette.

Like I said before the ONLY game you can have a mathematical edge on is blackjack, unless you have an illegal edge. There have been craps players and roulette followers that have turned the odds in their favor but it's very rare and almost impossible to do on a million rolls/million spins.

That is the key to any system, if you do it a million times what is the house edge? For martingale/labouchere it's the same 2.7% on roulette no matter how many times you play it or how many numbers you eliminate or whether you reverse it. For blackjack when the count is +3 or better the house edge is NEGATIVE (that's a good thing).

[odusmykal]

not sure if you're a mckinley fan or if you're from SC , but the 5 of us are out of SC...

Both.. A Mckinley fan & from S.C.. I'm in the upstate, you?.

[saints7011]

Both.. A Mckinley fan & from S.C.. I'm in the upstate, you?.

myrtle beach , I have 2 good friends in greenville though...

[QuantumLeap]

Testimonials from a guy who said he could hit the same # multiple times in a row. Not a strong argument for anything, and not realistic advice. Even if it were true (I've heard of dealers hitting quadrants with frequency as long as the ball doesn't bounce around too much, but to not have that factor in is rare), your advice to the player is what?? Time the dealer's rhythm?? Just like that, huh? You can't be serious.

Degenerates looking for some kind of edge on a house game like roulette are going to need a disciplined, structured approach or else there's no chance. Trying to time a dealer with a wheel spinning the other way and nothing constant in the entire equation is best reserved for the movies.

Yes, I am serious. Like I said, try talking to some people who actually work in a casino. James Grosjean mentions something similar in his book "Beyond Counting" regarding the Big 6 Wheel. The people who spin it have a tendency to spin it the same way so you can calculate a general idea of where it will land. So don't dismiss my idea with a simple "not a strong argument", "not realistic advice" or "you can't be serious". That's just trying to dismiss an opposing viewpoint with your opinion and that's not an effective way of making your point.

As far as being serious, you can't be serious with that Labouchere system. Everything I read calls it a scam. But I like to keep an open mind. Can you explain why you think this system has any merit?

[Statman]

I try to stay away from any "house" controlled games and go to the sportsbook instead when inside a Vegas casino. I been burned too many times and call it bad mistakes, poor $$ mgmt, I just can't seem to be the "house" games. At least with sports, I win on a more regular basis...

[milwaukee mike]

quantam leap, good point on big 6 wheel

i have timed people spinning that thing, if you know it's going to be within a few notches either way of one of the 40s then it's worth betting

[Ralphie Halves]

Yes, I am serious. Like I said, try talking to some people who actually work in a casino. James Grosjean mentions something similar in his book "Beyond Counting" regarding the Big 6 Wheel. The people who spin it have a tendency to spin it the same way so you can calculate a general idea of where it will land. So don't dismiss my idea with a simple "not a strong argument", "not realistic advice" or "you can't be serious". That's just trying to dismiss an opposing viewpoint with your opinion and that's not an effective way of making your point.

As far as being serious, you can't be serious with that Labouchere system. Everything I read calls it a scam. But I like to keep an open mind. Can you explain why you think this system has any merit?

I am being dismissive, yes, just like people are being dismissive about Labouchere, which I can't understand. So I'll address both.

Whether I have credibility on this or not, I just don't think as a roulette PLAYER trying to time the dealer is a viable strategy. First off, you don't know which dealers are consistent and which ones are not. Second, the ball usually bounces all over the place, the precision to get it to land right in a particular space cannot exist IMO. 9 times out of 10, the dealers are looking off into the distance somewhere when they're rolling, so they're not really even paying attention. I live here in Vegas, so if you know a dealer here that wants to give me even odds that they can hit any particular number in two tries, I'm listening.

Labouchere AKA "Split Martingale" is great. I use a system closer to what's called Reverse Labouchere. The system only has to win a shade over 34% of the time to be successful. Roulette being in the 47% range, it can really pay off. Casinos have kicked people out for it in the past. I use it for sportsbetting, in which I use 55-65% cappers. The only catch is you have to have a bankroll to absorb bad runs.

For example, I played dollar craps at BoDog using the system. I set up a line with all "1"s and brought a $1000 bankroll. The whole point is to clear lines and start new ones. On my notebook I wrote:

1-1-1-1

If I clear the line, I win the sum of the numbers involved, which is $4.

Your bet is always the sum of the outermost two lines. The only exception is if there's one line left, then that's your bet obviously. So my first bet is $2.

I only played don't pass, since everything aside from pass and don't pass are not 48.6%, and come bets would just complicate things. If I win the first round, my line looks like this now:

1-1-1-1

The next round I lose. Then what I do is take what I should have won and add it to the end of the line like this:

1-1-2

I lose the next one, which is a $3 bet (1+2), and it looks like this:

1-1-2-3

Next one, winner!

1-1-2-3

Oh rats, I lost the next two.

1-2-3-4

Then a winner on my $5 bet!

1-2-3-4

And another winner to cap it off.

2-3

I just made $4 and cleared a line. I did this by going 4 and 4! 4 wins, 4 losses. Anyone else would be breakeven. This would take me about 2 or 3 minutes to finish. I moved onto lines that were more like:

1-1-2-1

to start with, but I kept it low and manageable. $750 later, I get a letter from Bodog saying something to the effect that system players in the casino are not welcome, we'll take action, blah blah blah. Probably thought I was using algorithms or something. I like their sportsbook, so I stopped.

I went on some HORRIBLE runs where I'd just keep losing. These runs are scary, because i was literally betting $200+ on one roll of craps just to clear a $5 line. The thing is, no matter how crazy out of control your lines may get, for every time you win you cross off two, for every time you lose, you're only adding one. So scary lines will get chopped down in a hurry with a few wins. Just gotta stay with it.

With sportsbetting, the stud cappers I use rarely ever go on ridiculously bad runs, so the lines get crossed off in a hurry. When you go from 48.6% odds to 55-65%, it's a major difference. It's a smart and manageable way to make sure you keeps your wins coming, and your losses under control.

Hope that helps everyone. How anyone can call it a "scam" is beyond me, it doesn't fit the criteria. It's really hard to poke holes in this one, it's been remarkably successful for me over the past two years. No losing months ever since I began.

[Ralphie Halves]

For some reason, the "4" on the line that is listed after "Then a winner on my $5 bet!" isn't crossing off like it should, even after the edit. So just pretend like it is.

Craps odds were referenced from here.

http://www.fastodds.com/game_odds/craps.htm

[Nashvegas Rocks]

Play the columns at the bottom of the table ie: 1-4-7-10 ect. They pay out 2-1. Play 2 out of the 3 columns for say $10 each (to keep the math easy). You cover 63% of the board (including 0-00), doesnt really matter which 2 columns you bet. You have $20 on the board to play 2 columns and if 1 of them hits, you win $10 (your original $10 wager plus the $20 you won). You lose $10 for the column that didnt hit, but get $20 for the one that did. If the 3rd column hits (the one you didnt bet) or either 0 or 00, you double your bet to $20 per column the next spin. If this hits, you get back the money you lost when the previous spin plus win another $10. I've tried this a dozen or so times just to see how it went and it has ALWAYS won in the long run. The most I have ever gone without one of my columns hitting is 3 spins in a row. Its slow, boring as all hell, and get some looks in your direction from the pit crew, but it works!

I love your logic and use it often however your math is off. You cannot double your bet you must triple your bet. Think of it being 4 losing rolls in a row where your bet would go 10,20,40,80 now you put 160 on all four 3rd's and hit you had 1240 either lost or on the table and only won back 960 meaning you are still 280 in the hole.

[QuantumLeap]

I am being dismissive, yes, just like people are being dismissive about Labouchere, which I can't understand. So I'll address both.

Whether I have credibility on this or not, I just don't think as a roulette PLAYER trying to time the dealer is a viable strategy. First off, you don't know which dealers are consistent and which ones are not. Second, the ball usually bounces all over the place, the precision to get it to land right in a particular space cannot exist IMO. 9 times out of 10, the dealers are looking off into the distance somewhere when they're rolling, so they're not really even paying attention. I live here in Vegas, so if you know a dealer here that wants to give me even odds that they can hit any particular number in two tries, I'm listening.

Labouchere AKA "Split Martingale" is great. I use a system closer to what's called Reverse Labouchere. The system only has to win a shade over 34% of the time to be successful. Roulette being in the 47% range, it can really pay off. Casinos have kicked people out for it in the past. I use it for sportsbetting, in which I use 55-65% cappers. The only catch is you have to have a bankroll to absorb bad runs.

For example, I played dollar craps at BoDog using the system. I set up a line with all "1"s and brought a $1000 bankroll. The whole point is to clear lines and start new ones. On my notebook I wrote:

1-1-1-1

If I clear the line, I win the sum of the numbers involved, which is $4.

Your bet is always the sum of the outermost two lines. The only exception is if there's one line left, then that's your bet obviously. So my first bet is $2.

I only played don't pass, since everything aside from pass and don't pass are not 48.6%, and come bets would just complicate things. If I win the first round, my line looks like this now:

1-1-1-1

The next round I lose. Then what I do is take what I should have won and add it to the end of the line like this:

1-1-2

I lose the next one, which is a $3 bet (1+2), and it looks like this:

1-1-2-3

Next one, winner!

1-1-2-3

Oh rats, I lost the next two.

1-2-3-4

Then a winner on my $5 bet!

1-2-3-4

And another winner to cap it off.

2-3

I just made $4 and cleared a line. I did this by going 4 and 4! 4 wins, 4 losses. Anyone else would be breakeven. This would take me about 2 or 3 minutes to finish. I moved onto lines that were more like:

1-1-2-1

to start with, but I kept it low and manageable. $750 later, I get a letter from Bodog saying something to the effect that system players in the casino are not welcome, we'll take action, blah blah blah. Probably thought I was using algorithms or something. I like their sportsbook, so I stopped.

I went on some HORRIBLE runs where I'd just keep losing. These runs are scary, because i was literally betting $200+ on one roll of craps just to clear a $5 line. The thing is, no matter how crazy out of control your lines may get, for every time you win you cross off two, for every time you lose, you're only adding one. So scary lines will get chopped down in a hurry with a few wins. Just gotta stay with it.

With sportsbetting, the stud cappers I use rarely ever go on ridiculously bad runs, so the lines get crossed off in a hurry. When you go from 48.6% odds to 55-65%, it's a major difference. It's a smart and manageable way to make sure you keeps your wins coming, and your losses under control.

Hope that helps everyone. How anyone can call it a "scam" is beyond me, it doesn't fit the criteria. It's really hard to poke holes in this one, it's been remarkably successful for me over the past two years. No losing months ever since I began.

Thanks for the explanation Ralphie and I can see your points. The dealers I know are no longer in Vegas.

[milwaukee mike]

ralphie nice post

many people call systems like that a "scam" (they're not really a scam) because they have known people that have won for years with them and then lost everything. chase systems are always great right until they aren't, and then it can be a financial disaster - just from personal experience i know a couple guys that used to pay for vegas trips using reverse labouchere on roulette. after years and years of doing this and sounding exactly like you that it's a great system they eventually lost 20k each on one trip. after that i never had to listen to how great their system was, and how dumb i was for not going and doing it with them.

if vegas didn't want you using martingale or labouchere on roulette they wouldn't have put in the number history boards. smartest thing the casinos ever did, now they get a lot more action.

[gimme2dollars]

Ralphie, I am interested in this system. I might try it as a small play next time I am up at the casino.

[timmyboy34243]

single 0 harder to find in vegas but they are out there. always wondered why someone would play at a 0/00 wheel when there's a single 0 wheel right across the isle. you would think the casino management would certainly want the 0/00 players on their christmas card list.

i have a friend who works as dealer in henderson and has bragged to me several different times that he can spin and land in a desired area of 6 #'s on a pretty consistant basis.

[Ralphie Halves]

ralphie nice post

many people call systems like that a "scam" (they're not really a scam) because they have known people that have won for years with them and then lost everything. chase systems are always great right until they aren't, and then it can be a financial disaster - just from personal experience i know a couple guys that used to pay for vegas trips using reverse labouchere on roulette. after years and years of doing this and sounding exactly like you that it's a great system they eventually lost 20k each on one trip. after that i never had to listen to how great their system was, and how dumb i was for not going and doing it with them.

if vegas didn't want you using martingale or labouchere on roulette they wouldn't have put in the number history boards. smartest thing the casinos ever did, now they get a lot more action.

It hasn't happened to me yet, but I have figured out a way to combat that somewhat. For monetary purposes, let's use my craps example. It's been so successful over and over again, that if you do go down $1000 at any point in time for example, just stop, write it off as a loss, and start over. You're likely pulling in a good 8-9K for every time you'd ever have to resort to this, so you can keep your long term profits in tact.

And like I said before, when you make that jump from 48.6% to the 55-65% range, it really is night and day. I can't remember the last time I had a line that was more than ten numbers long.

[Ralphie Halves]

Ralphie, I am interested in this system. I might try it as a small play next time I am up at the casino.

My advice to you would be this:

- Keep your bets low, and the bankroll you plan to use high.

- Don't be scared. Stick with it.

- Remember if you're going to do this with sportsbetting, you'll need to make a "juice line" every once in a while that won't add to your overall total after you clear it.

[Fishhead]

If some of you knew HALF of what I know in terms of gaming/casinos you would be millionaires..........................

[saints7011]

If some of you knew HALF of what I know in terms of gaming/casinos you would be millionaires..........................

well , do tell big guy ???

[pro-style]

don't pass in craps with max odds behind the bet is the best bet in the casino. if you find a place that gives 100x (casino royale in vegas) then the house edge is smaller than the drinks you get for free. you just have to be willing to bet $505 (5 dollar min bet and 500 max odds) per roll

house edge on don't pass is 1.4%, since the odds on the money behind pays the true amount you get... 5*.014 = 0.07 cents per roll. .07/505 = 0.000139 or .0139% edge. good luck beating that.

average amount of rolls per hour is like around 20 i would guess. you end up paying $1.4 dollar/hr and get all the free drinks you want