Texas Holdem question: Would you ever fold pocket Kings?

**slacker00** · 01-17-06, 06:36 AM

If you want to get picky, there's certain situations under tournament conditions where it's +EV mathematically correct to fold AA preflop. Same goes for KK, I imagine, except it's a bit weaker than AA. I imagine very few people understand tournament poker mathematics well enough to take advantage of this fact, including many (most) top professionals. For the common poker player, (like me), pushing these types of advantages are negligible compared to more fundamental errors that we are making.

**LVHerbie** · 01-17-06, 08:09 AM

I'm assuming you mean preflop... after the flop there are many times when it is real easy to throw them away... (easy example when an ace hits)... in a small tourney or an online tourney the answer is probably close to never unless it's a situation like slacker discussed above, get into the money or sat. tourneys or whatever... I done it in cash games more often... an example is with a big stack against another big stack who plays good/tight... you raise, he reraises, you reraise and he goes all in I might/have laid them down... but against a small stack, loose/bad player, or if I'm short stacked (say less then 50 bbs) my money is going in... NL limit poker (especially cash games) is about flops... and I want to get my money in when I have a made hand and you have to see a flop to reach that point...

**darkghost** · 01-17-06, 08:30 AM

You should fold KKs before the flop when you're fairly certain someone's holding AAs. And when do you know someone's holding AAs? For instance when the tightest player on the table makes it 3 bets or caps it preflop. When you have nothing invested in the hand then you should lay it down. In no-limit it works much the same way, when you get in a raising war preflop and the guy moves you all-in for a substantial amount you need to lay down your cowboys. Against aces your kings only have around a 18% chance to win.

**moses millsap** · 01-17-06, 11:00 AM

The only way I ever fold Kings preflop is late in a supersatellite where there are 3 short stacks and I'm the chip leader and can be 99% sure that I can sit there, post my antes and blinds, and just wait for the thing to end, b/c there is no objective to win first in that situation.

Also, I may fold Kings if I got 3-4 of the tightest players at the table go allin before me, then I know with a great deal of certainty I'm dead. Sure, there could be two AK suited's and a QQ there, but unlikely if you think about it.

**moses millsap** · 01-17-06, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by darkghost

You should fold KKs before the flop when you're fairly certain someone's holding AAs. And when do you know someone's holding AAs? For instance when the tightest player on the table makes it 3 bets or caps it preflop. When you have nothing invested in the hand then you should lay it down. In no-limit it works much the same way, when you get in a raising war preflop and the guy moves you all-in for a substantial amount you need to lay down your cowboys. Against aces your kings only have around a 18% chance to win.

Never fold KK preflop in a limit game. You'd be surprised to see the hands people will 3 bet with and I'm talking about highly skilled players.

**LVHerbie** · 01-18-06, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by OWNED

Never fold KK preflop in a limit game. You'd be surprised to see the hands people will 3 bet with and I'm talking about highly skilled players.

I don't play much limit anymore but I think you would be hard pressed to find an opportunity to fold KK preflop...

**SBR_John** · 01-18-06, 10:37 PM

I'm with you Herbie and I'll tell you something else. There may be a book that shows proper tournament stradegy that says lay them down and that may be the odds on play. But, you can't play poker by some book or point count stradegy, this ain't blackjack.

If you will fold pre flop with K-K because someone drags you all-in then you set yourself up to fold K-K against an unsuited 3-7 to a decent player who's bluffing. 10x moreso if he knows you will fold.

**Aces** · 01-18-06, 10:53 PM

If I have to get beat out I'll take my chances with pocket Ks.

**isetcap** · 01-18-06, 10:56 PM

I have folded KK preflop twice in online play. Both times I was not certain I was going against AA, but I felt I was against at least 1 ace. Both times I was happy with the decision I made because I would have lost both hands. Both times I ended winning the tourney. Slacker is absolutely correct about the mathematics of it and if you want to be a consistent winner online, it's as simple as understanding those concepts. There's so much dead money out there...

**imgv94** · 01-18-06, 11:15 PM

I know someone who is a great poker player. He always plays at the Commerce.
He told me he folds great pre-flops all the time if someone raises. Its just
not worth it he says.

**slacker00** · 01-18-06, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

If you will fold pre flop with K-K because someone drags you all-in then you set yourself up to fold K-K against an unsuited 3-7 to a decent player who's bluffing. 10x moreso if he knows you will fold.

Welcome to tournament poker strategy. Also consider the counter-bluff. If you are playing super-tight, and everyone knows it, you might pull off some of your own bluffs.

Folding KK is an extreme scenario. The situation would have to be pretty contrived for folding KK to be successful. I don't think any of us here are at a high enough level to even understand those situations correctly.

But, it gets to a point where you run headlong into diminishing returns. If you never fold KK, then how about QQ? The same kind of arguments can be made.

**SBR_John** · 01-19-06, 10:27 AM

But, it gets to a point where you run headlong into diminishing returns. If you never fold KK, then how about QQ? The same kind of arguments can be made.

A lot would have to do with the read on the opponet. I mean if a guy is folding away and then bets all-in, I would think twice before calling. I guess I don't care for turnameant poker. It changes the game.

**darkghost** · 01-19-06, 10:54 AM

One of the attributes of a great player is his ability to read opponents AND to make the right decision based on that read. Folding KKs preflop is a rare situation but it must be done when you're fairly certain you're against AAs. These type of situations is what seperates the great players from the good players and the good players from the average player. Just like slacker pointed out why fold QQs preflop then or JJs or TTs. Poker broken down is a simple game fellas. And the premise is based on trying to have the best hand. When you're dealt KKs you've got the best hand about 97-98% of the time and you can never go wrong by playing all your KKs but the great player knows how to get away from this hand and save himself alot of money.