SIA confiscates over $25,000

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  • Justin7
    SBR Hall of Famer
    • 07-31-06
    • 8577

    #1
    SIA confiscates over $25,000
    3 Players claim that Sports Interaction seized more than $25,000, citing “syndicate rule”. Three accounts were making bets from the same computer, usually on the same event. The aggregate of the three accounts often exceeded SIA’s limits for that event. SIA’s full explanation is below. Per the players, they are roommates at the same residence. SIA has refunded the deposits, and cancelled all the winnings on all 3 accounts.

    At the time of the forfeiture, SIA did not have a rule clearly prohibiting multiple accounts in a single household (they have since clarified this rule at the request of SBR). SIA declined to share the findings of its fraud investigation with SBR. This, combined with the subjective definition of “syndicate” in its rules raises serious questions as to whether SIA will treat player balances fairly.

    How should this dispute have been handled? In the first instance of “syndicate action”, SIA should have confronted the players before the event was played. At that point in time, it would be acceptable to cancel wagers in excess of their betting limits (in this case, 2 of 3 $200 wagers could fairly be cancelled before the event). If the “syndicate action” was not discovered until a later, all bets made up to that point stand. While any book can close any account for any (or no) reason, it is obligated to pay the players their balances in full.

    <SIA>

    Hello Justin;

    This email is in response to your inquiry about the Sports Interaction account holder player1.

    As we have indicated on our correspondence we sent to player1, we now considered this matter closed and his claim as null and void because he was in clear violation of our Terms and Conditions.

    Based on our fraud prevention investigation findings, we have discovered that he was in breach of our Terms and Conditions by using several different accounts to place bets with us – over a period of time.

    We have determined that player1 has been using multiple Sports Interaction accounts to circumvent our published betting limits. We have recorded bets made through multiple accounts, the time the bets were placed, the amounts, and the IP address from which these bets were placed.

    All of the bets were placed for the Sports Interaction maximum amount allowable from the same computer minutes apart. And it is evident that the modus operandi was to use multiple accounts to circumvent our limits, which is a breach of our Terms and Conditions. Please feel free to review our Terms and Conditions including our Rules, which states:

    Terms - Terms and conditions - Sports Interaction online sports betting

    Rules – Rules - Sports Interaction online sportsbook

    We also would like to emphasize the following which is found within our T&C:

    Any bets placed in an attempt in any way to defraud Sports Interaction or to violate Sports Interaction's betting rules or limits shall be voided and the balances in such accounts held by Sports Interaction. Any bets made by or contracted by any bookmaker(s), gambling syndicates, and/or any person, persons, parties, organisation(s), friends or relatives acting on behalf of any bookmaker(s) or gambling syndicates shall be voided and the balances in such accounts held by Sports Interaction.

    Below, you will find a sample of some of the transactions on the accounts operated by player1. You will notice the betting patterns that were clearly in violation of the terms that he agreed to abide by when he signed up at Sports Interaction. (The wager list was removed by SBR Staff. It shows 3 players making bets from the same IP, often within 60 seconds of each other on the same event).

    For the three Sports Interaction accounts in the example above, ALL deposits made to Sports Interaction have been refunded via the original deposit methods.(Therefore, player1 is not “out” any money from his gaming attempt at Sports Interaction).

    Player1 first withdrawal of $3000 was honored and will not be collected. His withdrawal request made AFTER our discovery of the breach in the Terms and Conditions has NOT been honored. All winnings on the three accounts in question have been voided.

    We now consider this matter to be closed. We wish player1 success in his gaming elsewhere.

    Justin, if you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

    Regards;

    Sports Interaction Management

    In response to follow up correspondence, they further wrote

    Hello Justin;

    Thank you for following-up with me on the case of Sports Interaction player1.
    Sports Interaction has had clearly defined rules in place regarding syndicate cooperation since our inception in 1997. After conducting a competitor review, we have found that our rules, and subsequent penalties for breaking these rules, are in line with other notable online Sportsbooks (VIPsports, Bodog). Sports Interaction is self admittedly a recreational sportsbook and it is no mystery that we have lower betting limits which reflect this. When syndicates band together to circumvent our betting limits it skews our ability to manage the lines and take in balanced action leaving us with disproportionate liabilities. More importantly, it moves these attractive lines off of where we would like them to be for the rest of our customers to bet on, thereby ruining the SIA betting experience for others.

    Sports Interaction does not make the decision to withhold players account balances lightly. Every effort is made to give the player the benefit of the doubt, but these are not a group of friends independently making bets and pulling for the same teams by chance. Our investigation has concluded that this is with out a doubt a well coordinated effort to circumvent Sports Interaction’s betting limits, which is a direct breach of our rules. Sports Interaction will always take the time and effort necessary to have proof beyond a doubt before taking action against a fraudulent player. We would never want to falsely accuse a legitimate and valued customer.

    As a knowledgeable body within the online gaming industry, I am confident that SBR is not blind to the fact that player fraud and rule violations do exist, and the books have justification for their actions as well. This case is no different. All players big and small have agreed to the same house rules before signing up with us.
    Our decision to reimburse all deposits and void all winnings in this case continues to stand. We have amassed considerable evidence in this case using our existing fraud prevention tools along with newly acquired sophisticated fraud detection systems. Of course the evidence is confidential (as we do not wish to jeopardize our future fraud prevention efforts) and may only be shared directly with the player should he wish to contact us directly.

    Sports Interaction will not tolerate fraudulent activity (related to betting, money laundering or other types of fraud) amongst our client base.
    We truly believe that maintaining a fair a safe betting environment is necessary in our customer retention efforts.

    If the player in question is not sure why their funds have been withheld, they are welcome to contact us for a more thorough explanation.

    If you have any other concerns or questions, we would be more than happy to attempt to answer them.

    Best regards
    Sports Interaction Management
  • JC
    SBR Sharp
    • 08-23-05
    • 481

    #2
    If it really was one person controlling three accounts, I think SIA has a right to cancel the winnings on TWO of the accounts, not three and refund the deposits on two of the accounts and pay all of the winnings on the third.

    That being said, what the hell does this mean?

    "More importantly, it moves these attractive lines off of where we would like them to be for the rest of our customers to bet on, thereby ruining the SIA betting experience for others."

    That's the funniest thing I have read all day. SIA has "attractive" lines? So the professional players come in and bet the dogs, lowering the lines on the favorites and making the lines less attractive for who, the other professionals? It seems to me that they are making the lines more attractive for their recreational client base that they boast about.
    Comment
    • bigloser
      SBR Wise Guy
      • 07-19-06
      • 787

      #3
      Sounds like a syndicate to me. Book would have had a clear win on this one IF they had acted more quickly.
      Most of the problems books have in disputes of this kind is that they are so inefficient in putting a stop to this sort of stuff early.

      You need to get your act together guys.

      Shame about this I only posted on this site a ocuple of weeks ago that I was impressed with the way they dealt with the soccer bet that was cancelled and that I might open an account.
      Guess I will wait a while.
      Comment
      • GamblingPrincessXOXO
        SBR Hustler
        • 12-14-06
        • 62

        #4
        I'm a little confused?

        [QUOTE=Justin7] SIA declined to share the findings of its fraud investigation with SBR.

        [QUOTE=Justin7]
        Below, you will find a sample of some of the transactions on the accounts operated by player1. You will notice the betting patterns that were clearly in violation of the terms that he agreed to abide by when he signed up at Sports Interaction. (The wager list was removed by SBR Staff. It shows 3 players making bets from the same IP, often within 60 seconds of each other on the same event).


        so did SIA provide SBR with evidence or not?
        This sounds like SIA has provided a decent explanation to me.

        Can SBR post what was removed?
        Comment
        • Justin7
          SBR Hall of Famer
          • 07-31-06
          • 8577

          #5
          SIA shared wagers from two days. My understanding is that they conduct a much more extensive fraud investigation, and they chose not to disclose those details.
          Comment
          • bigloser
            SBR Wise Guy
            • 07-19-06
            • 787

            #6
            Why was the wager list removed ? Remove any identifying parts but leave the rest surely.
            Comment
            • jjgold
              SBR Aristocracy
              • 07-20-05
              • 388179

              #7
              I really can care less, you deserve what you get at bad books like 5 dimes, sia, nine.com and most others.

              Stick with pioneer books and have no trouble.
              Comment
              • bigboydan
                SBR Aristocracy
                • 08-10-05
                • 55420

                #8
                SIA has had a lot of complaints against them this month it seems like. I have had a few people contact me looking for help, and now we see this one arise.
                Comment
                • SBR_John
                  SBR Posting Legend
                  • 07-12-05
                  • 16471

                  #9
                  Player1 first withdrawal of $3000 was honored and will not be collected. His withdrawal request made AFTER our discovery of the breach in the Terms and Conditions has NOT been honored. All winnings on the three accounts in question have been voided.
                  Justin,
                  Is it correct they did pay some portion?

                  What is owed if there was just one account and what, if any, has been paid towards that amount?
                  Comment
                  • Justin7
                    SBR Hall of Famer
                    • 07-31-06
                    • 8577

                    #10
                    SIA states it refunded the initial deposits, and over $25k was seized. If the deposits were not refunded, this figure would be higher. I haven't received confirmation from the player that the refund was issued.
                    Comment
                    • Dark Horse
                      SBR Posting Legend
                      • 12-14-05
                      • 13764

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Justin7
                      3 Players claim that Sports Interaction seized more than $25,000, citing “syndicate rule”. Three accounts were making bets from the same computer, usually on the same event. The aggregate of the three accounts often exceeded SIA’s limits for that event. SIA’s full explanation is below. Per the players, they are roommates at the same residence. SIA has refunded the deposits, and cancelled all the winnings on all 3 accounts.

                      At the time of the forfeiture, SIA did not have a rule clearly prohibiting multiple accounts in a single household (they have since clarified this rule at the request of SBR). SIA declined to share the findings of its fraud investigation with SBR. This, combined with the subjective definition of “syndicate” in its rules raises serious questions as to whether SIA will treat player balances fairly.
                      As long as the players can prove who they say they are, there should be no problem betting from the same computer (by the SIA rules). They were placing that money at risk, so should be paid their winnings in full.

                      SIA is using the limit being exceeded as an excuse not to pay at all. That is complete nonsense. In the very worst case scenario for the players, the total amount wagered would be lowered to the limit. But that wouldn't even fly here.

                      A 'syndicate'?
                      Comment
                      • JoshW
                        SBR MVP
                        • 08-10-05
                        • 3431

                        #12
                        I like a tough approach in general to multiple accounts betting from one IP. But 25k seems like a lot. How long were they allowed to bet this way before SIA cut them off? Either they waited a long time or they were betting football for the max and winning quickly.

                        Players often claim they all live together, but when pressed for ID and bill statements as proof of residence often falls apart. Did they ever prove they all lived at same address?
                        Comment
                        • SBR_John
                          SBR Posting Legend
                          • 07-12-05
                          • 16471

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Justin7
                          SIA states it refunded the initial deposits, and over $25k was seized. If the deposits were not refunded, this figure would be higher. I haven't received confirmation from the player that the refund was issued.
                          OK.

                          I think its important to find out what the player would have been paid had he opened one account. Subtract what he was paid from what he would of been paid if he had opened just one account. That's the amount he would have a case for(maybe).

                          Guys, just like the Bet365 thread and even the 5Dimes dispute and this is yet another reminder. You let the book take a free shot at you when you step over the line. Play the angles and play them hard. But when you step over the line you set yourself to a possible gamble that the ONLY outcome is: LOSE. Don't do it.
                          Comment
                          • bigloser
                            SBR Wise Guy
                            • 07-19-06
                            • 787

                            #14
                            So it is OK for books to take shots, eg on Bet365 thread when the place odds on an outcome that is impossible , no Books have to move quicker.

                            I will quote one positive experience in this respect. I was playing the same line at 2 different Sportingbet books. There is nothing in their rules to say I couldnt so I thought it was OK . They wrote to me to tell me it wasnt what they wanted, they honoured all existing bets and asked me to stop , i did and everyone is happy as I continue to lose at their books. This is the way it should be dealt with
                            Comment
                            • SBR_John
                              SBR Posting Legend
                              • 07-12-05
                              • 16471

                              #15
                              BL its certainly not OK. We will work to get that case resolved.

                              The point is these are NOT The Saints of the Giving Brotherhood we are dealing with in the offshore world. These are bookies, hardcore bookies who have survived the streets and stiffs and feds and everything in between. If you take a shot at them something bad usually happens.
                              Comment
                              • vanzack
                                SBR Sharp
                                • 12-16-06
                                • 478

                                #16
                                Originally posted by jjgold
                                I really can care less, you deserve what you get at bad books like 5 dimes, sia, nine.com and most others.

                                Stick with pioneer books and have no trouble.
                                BINGO!!

                                Comment
                                • BadAzz
                                  SBR Sharp
                                  • 08-10-05
                                  • 324

                                  #17
                                  I know I've mostly defended SIA since I've had very nice experience with them. However, nothing is as scary as confiscating funds with the syndicate clause. I have never seen any proof in this kind of cases. Do the books make the evidence available to anybody?

                                  I am propably far too small of a player to encounter any problems but still, here is some hypothetical thinking.
                                  I know my brother plays at SIA as well, I know we discuss plays and often if we agree, we take the same bet. We share the same family name and we live in same city. I know for a fact that our IP's cannot match, we life in different apartments and we work in different offices. But still, I've had a book tell me before (not SIA) that our IP's match even if I knew that was impossible. I asked for the logs out of curiosity and of course did not get those. This issue was about a tiny referral bonus which I happily let go, but it just shows that the books only need to say the IP's match.

                                  I am going to have to lower my balance at SIA to the level that I can "happily let go", unless of course some evidence of the wrongdoing comes available.
                                  Comment
                                  • GamblingPrincessXOXO
                                    SBR Hustler
                                    • 12-14-06
                                    • 62

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by BadAzz
                                    I know I've mostly defended SIA since I've had very nice experience with them. However, nothing is as scary as confiscating funds with the syndicate clause. I have never seen any proof in this kind of cases. Do the books make the evidence available to anybody?

                                    I am propably far too small of a player to encounter any problems but still, here is some hypothetical thinking.
                                    I know my brother plays at SIA as well, I know we discuss plays and often if we agree, we take the same bet. We share the same family name and we live in same city. I know for a fact that our IP's cannot match, we life in different apartments and we work in different offices. But still, I've had a book tell me before (not SIA) that our IP's match even if I knew that was impossible. I asked for the logs out of curiosity and of course did not get those. This issue was about a tiny referral bonus which I happily let go, but it just shows that the books only need to say the IP's match.

                                    I am going to have to lower my balance at SIA to the level that I can "happily let go", unless of course some evidence of the wrongdoing comes available.
                                    I agree with badazz about the evidence. Apparently their was a wager list that was removed bt the SBR staff with details of wrong doing. Can we make this available for the forum? Any confidential information such as customer name and email address can be deleted or anonomized. I would like to see what it takes for SIA to beleive that these customers were acting as a syndicate. I think the rest of the forum would like to know to.

                                    If its merely 2 brothers betting on the Bears game together then we know that this book is a joke. But make the evidence known!!!!!!!!
                                    Comment
                                    • Justin7
                                      SBR Hall of Famer
                                      • 07-31-06
                                      • 8577

                                      #19
                                      I can't format the wagers nicely like SIA sent them to me - that is why I didn't list them earlier.

                                      At the start of each "paragraph" (like 501611 below) is the event number. All wagers were made from the same IP; each wager was from one of 3 listed accounts.

                                      501611
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      15:46:48
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      15:48:03
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      15:47:42

                                      501653
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      15:52:00
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      15:51:11
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      15:51:35

                                      501764
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      16:08:13
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      16:08:49
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      16:09:15

                                      501763
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      16:57:10
                                      $ 550.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      16:54:59

                                      501630
                                      $ 120.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      16:57:56
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      16:55:29
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      16:55:57

                                      501630
                                      $ 330.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      16:56:15

                                      502907
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      18:44:57
                                      $ 550.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      18:43:56
                                      68.104.83.12

                                      501907
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      19:05:11
                                      $ 550.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      19:04:29

                                      501895
                                      $ 330.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      19:18:34
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      19:18:04
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      19:18:56

                                      502897
                                      $ 61.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      19:49:18
                                      $ 61.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      19:48:54
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      19:48:16

                                      503226
                                      $ 120.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      20:16:23
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      20:15:43
                                      $ 220.00
                                      11-Nov-06
                                      20:16:49

                                      503167
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      1:23:26
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      1:23:10
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      1:22:34

                                      503596
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      16:51:32
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      16:52:42
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      16:48:55

                                      503593
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      16:51:59
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      16:52:52
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      16:49:50

                                      503599
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      16:52:06
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      16:52:59
                                      $ 220.00
                                      12-Nov-06
                                      16:49:57
                                      Comment
                                      • bigboydan
                                        SBR Aristocracy
                                        • 08-10-05
                                        • 55420

                                        #20
                                        With all the complaints we have seen before with this book in regards to these types of problems, I'm shocked this type of rule was never on there site.

                                        Due to the fact that this rule did not exist prior to winnings confiscation and that family members have played at SIA in the past, SBR has argued that winnings should be honored.
                                        I think most of us here would agree that this player/players knew what they were doing. However, If it wasn't clearly stated in there rules then they should honor it.
                                        Comment
                                        • BadAzz
                                          SBR Sharp
                                          • 08-10-05
                                          • 324

                                          #21
                                          Thanks Justin, those logs help quite a bit. There is not much question if there was foul play involved.
                                          Comment
                                          • GamblingPrincessXOXO
                                            SBR Hustler
                                            • 12-14-06
                                            • 62

                                            #22
                                            Thanks for posting the wager list Justin7

                                            The evidence, although just over a 2 day span is pretty conclusive. I just wanted to see it with my own eyes if it was made available.

                                            My argument that these are a couple of brothers playing the Bears game together was way off.

                                            I dont know what the correct resolution should be. But if SIA actually does have rules against this activity then I dont see much controversy over their desicion.
                                            Comment
                                            • justbet
                                              SBR High Roller
                                              • 03-04-06
                                              • 185

                                              #23
                                              if you break the rules prepare to get screwed. dont cry to SBR when you are trying to screw a book and they get you back.

                                              if the bets are within 30 seconds of each other, it is obviously just 1 person logging off then on again immediately. i realize SIA has done some sketch things in the past, but i dont think they are really doing much wrong here.
                                              Comment
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