Player opinions wanted on dispute

[Justin7]

Here are the undisputed facts:

A player has an account at a book, and used it regularly. He identifies large losing bet and denies making the bet. The sportsbook's security team retrieves the IP log. The disputed wager was not made at the player's computer, but it was made somewhere nearby in the same region.

The book's account security requires the player to enter an account and password to login and wager. The player argues that this is insufficient, and wants the losing bet refunded since it wasn't made from his computer.

How would you handle this?

[BadAzz]

With these facts I don't see any possibility to refund the wager. IP is way too easy to change. This would need a thorough police investigation to be sure that the wager was not made by the player. And such an investigation is not possible. I think the player has the responsibility to prove that the wager was made by someone else. Just my opinion.

[Korchnoi]

I agree with skeletor.

If the book were forced to refund a wager not made at an identifyable IP address, then they would be forced to accept only wagers from a particular IP address (or addresses). That would mean if you're on the road or on your mobile, you won't be able to bet.

In the future, perhaps the book can give the player the option to only allow bets to be made from a particular IP address. This would be a decent feature for a book to offer, but might be technical difficult to offer it to everybody.

It's the players responsibility to keep his info private.

Depending on how much the book values the player's business, maybe they can come to a compromise, but I wouldn't expect this of the book. A fair compromise might be to return the VIG, but since this is so small compared to what the player lost, it won't appease the player much.

What sort of precedent would this set if the book publicly gave the player his money back? How many more would be tempted to take a shot. Hell, after VIP (i think) returned that guys bet who bet the wrong game due to a software foible, even I've thought about it.

[jjgold]

Do not refund the wager, this guy took a free shot at the book. A no brainer here.

We favor the book here

[vanzack]

book

[Aces]

Wager could have been made by a friend or from a friend or relatives computer. A couple of things I would look at.

1. Were there any wagers made from the players computer during the same time the wager was being made from the other computer.
2. Pattern or style of wager was the wagering style or pattern the same from both computers.
3. How soon did the player notice this and was it only after a loss that he reported it.
4. Was the wager consistent with the dollar amount that the player normaly plays.

My inital lean is that the wagers should stand but by answering these questions I would have a better feel for it. I have friends that watch games with me just as i do with them and we use each others computers to place wagers so I cant see where the "It wasn't my computer stands up" now if the other computer is across the country or in another country then I would initialy side with the player but( nearby) I have to side with the book.

[Justin7]

I thought this was an easy one as well, but I always like to hear other peoples' thoughts. A player has to protect his own password. Unless the Sportsbook defrauded him, the player has action no matter who or what placed the wager. Any other requirement would make it impossible for a book to take a bet.

[MrX]

I agree with everyone's opinions here, but am I the only one that gets nervous when I hear this kind of story? We all know that most sportsbooks' security is questionable at best. Clerks come and go and have access to everything needed to mess with anyone's account. Many limits are high enough to really mess someone up.

Obviously you can help yourself by keeping balances as low as possible and checking your accounts OFTEN. It would be very nice to see additional security options such as giving the player the ability to set his own limit, making password changing available online (with email confirmation), disabling bets from other IPs etc.

[Dark Horse]

Books that don't allow players to change their password online are opening up players to unnecessary risk. It is vital that players can do this as often as they want and as effectively as possible.

[TLD]

I agree with everyone's opinions here, but am I the only one that gets nervous when I hear this kind of story?

No, you are not.

In most such cases I would rule for the book, but it's definitely a "lesser of the evils" thing rather than something I feel fully comfortable with, since the wrongdoing could certainly be coming from either side, or a third party.

And I know because I have personal experience of such an issue with a book. Ultimately the book relented and deleted the disputed bet, but it's a helpless feeling knowing you can't "prove" a negative (that you didn't place a bet), and knowing that if it happened once it could easily happen again.

[wrongturn]

I feel kind of suspicious on such claims. What gain does someone get by placing a bet on other's account? What if the bet won?

[durito]

I travel a lot, and frequently bet from different IP addresses. The bet should stand.

[tacomax]

What gain does someone get by placing a bet on other's account?

Making a large bet with your login information on another computer can give you the possibility of a free bet if you're a shot-taker. If the bet loses, the player can claim that it wasn't made on his PC and tries to get the money re-credited to his account.

The waters are muddied insofar as what would happen if the player's account was actually used fraudulently by a third party? There have been sufficient security lapses by various sportsbooks in recent times to make this a possibility.

What if the bet won?

Then you'd hear nothing about it.

[LGBoots]

Books that don't allow players to change their password online are opening up players to unnecessary risk. It is vital that players can do this as often as they want and as effectively as possible.

Totally agree with you

I can't think of one UK book where you can't change your password online (Though there probably are 1 or 2)

I see no reason why offshore books should be different.

I always feel VERY uneasy when having to change a password via 'Live chat'

[Dark Horse]

Of course the bet stands. But that doesn't mean that books can't make a greater effort to allow players to change their passwords online. Security is a two-way street. I would like to do my part, and I want my books to enable me to do so.

(Hadn't seen your post, LGBoots. Kind of makes my one superfluous).

[Arilou]

I once had a (rather large) bet placed in one of my accounts at an A book, likely as a result of a computer being compromised and a third party gaining access to my login information. Luckily I found the bet before the game began, I contacted them and they deleted the bet for me with no problem. If the game had started, I would have accepted that I have to live with the bet; even at -110 you only lose an average of 5% of your wager, and now you know you have a security hole.

In this case, while it's possible that the player did not place the bet, not only do I think the book wins easily but if there was a line I'd bet on the bet having been made by the player.

[pjesnik24]

if any of the earlier bets was made fro another IP then the player has no chance to get any money back, but if all the other bets were taken from his home PC then the book might consider to offer hiim some kind of a deal

[bigloser]

. A player has to protect his own password. Unless the Sportsbook defrauded him, the player has action no matter who or what placed the wager. .

Unfortunately this is not always possible. Eg Cris uses your password as the ID during live chats , the password is visible to anyone in the office.

Probably agree bet shouldnt be cancelled but would need to know a little more.

[Justin7]

Bigloser -

that is why we tracked down the IP where the bet was made. If it was made in Bowman's office, the bet should be cancelled. It wasn't though - it was made somewhere near the player. In that circumstance, I don't see how the book can be blamed for a security breach.

[bubba]

good point big loser. its an absolute joke to ask someone to type there password in live chat. i cant imagine a bigger security breach than that

[bigloser]

Meant should sorry , completely reversed my meaning.

[LLXC]

IMO, book should not refund wager.

It is up to us to prevent our login and passwords from being stolen.

[TLD]

It is up to us to prevent our login and passwords from being stolen.

No. Not solely.

Two parties have the customer's login and password: The book and the customer.

Both have an equal responsibility to protect that information.

When that information gets out and is misused, it is almost never possible to prove which party is at fault. More often, circumstantial evidence points to the player being at fault, so that is usually the best educated guess and the way the ruling should go.