How Stan James stole my 19000 euro ...

**pags11** · 11-24-06, 03:50 AM

who is stan james again?...

**SquareShooter** · 11-24-06, 09:50 AM

StanJames was big and (to date) reputable (B-) uk bookie.

Cantoro is right in every aspect. Stan James own Cantoro every last cent he won with them.

I hope this issue is resolved and as soon as possible. In this case StanJames is acting like F- bookie and not like B-.

**SquareShooter** · 11-24-06, 04:57 PM

Cantoro, could you please report how things are developing on this one?
Did Bill answer your mail?

I have pretty big balance myself in Stan James so I'm indeed interested in outcome.

Thanks.

**ttmopp** · 11-24-06, 06:01 PM

SJ should fire the "Volleyball Trader" and pay the player. If they are stupid enough not to adjust the prices after the first games, they should be punished. Such a typical loosers only book.

**BuddyBear** · 11-24-06, 10:58 PM

Hope thing work out for you pal....

**pags11** · 11-25-06, 04:31 AM

thanks square shooter...wasn't familiar with this guy...

**SBR_John** · 11-25-06, 09:46 AM

Cantoro,
Any update here? They should honor this bet or at the worse change the odds to market odds and pay.

**Cantoro** · 11-25-06, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by SBR_John

Cantoro,
They should honor this bet

yes I think so...

Originally posted by SBR_John

at the worse change the odds to market odds and pay

NO WAY I don't agree

They changed odd and they paid but I don't agree with this situation

I bet on on odds 51.0 and 23.0 ' not 4.5 and 3.5 !!!

This is crazy to change odd in won bets !!! why 4.5 and 3.5 maybe 7.2 and 6.6 or maybe 1.01 and 1.02

I don't wanna agree with this bullshit

They accepted this bet and they did NOT cancel this bet

they had 5 days to do this

When I won then they were starting to cheat...

If I lose did they give me back my stake?????

CERTAINLY NOT!!!

**Santo** · 11-25-06, 11:37 AM

When the betfair logs become available, it will be interesting to see what the market price was after the first round of games.

**SBR_John** · 11-25-06, 12:06 PM

Poster do you or anyone else know what the market odds were when you placed this bet?

The part, the huge part in your favor for why they should pay in full is that they cancelled the bet after the match. However, if the odds were grossly off then we will not be able to get you paid on severly off lines.

**Cantoro** · 11-25-06, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Santo

When the betfair logs become available, it will be interesting to see what the market price was after the first round of games.

Betfair didn't have pools outrights in the offer

But if they had this in the offer it would be useless anyway

"Matched" would be 0.0 or very little on such exotic team

and volleyball is not so popular like soccer or US Sports and not so many people are betting on this

However, if the odds were grossly off then we will not be able to get you paid on severly off lines.

ok, fine but what do we mean "market odds"

This is clear for favourites - for example "Brazil to win pool outright " was 1.25 and it was fair odd and everyone knows it

and odd 12.5 would be just mistake - I certainly understand this

but when we are betting on underdogs, on exotic teams nobody knows

Maybe P is 5% maybe only 0.1%

Due to this reason some punters (and me also ) are betting on such exotic teams

Example:

Football European Championship 2004
maybe someone remember this tournament
Greece is weak team

first game: Greece won with Portugal - it was surprise

but nobody thought that Greece could win whole
tournament and odds were very very big for them

But Greece won European Championship !!!- it was one of the bigest surprise in the history of soccer

If someone bet on Greece after first game could book change odd after the tournament? NO!!!

don't let bookmakers do such terrible practice

they could always have nice odd (and Stan James has very often the highest price in the market - now I understand why

)

when bookmaker has good odd - many punters are betting on this (and risking money)and when they lose bookmaker is taking this

when they win - bookie could always tell us - sorry Pal, this odd was to high - we pay you 3.5 instead of 10.0

Example:

Punter is betting on odd 50.0 when P is 5 % -

He think - : "great value - 2.50

There is little chance to win this bet but in long run I earn some money"

he wager for example 30 times and he lost 30 stakes , next time he is winning but odd is 15 instead 50 (bookie just changed it when punter won)

so player is losing in long run anyway because bookmaker was ordinary cheating

Punter was risking money because he thought that he found valuebets

Actually he was still betting on price with very low value but he didn't know it

Is this honest ??? - tell me guys

**SquareShooter** · 11-25-06, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

Cantoro,
...at the worse change the odds to market odds and pay.

I really don't think its a honest way out unless a player can change odds after he has made a bet too

This should really be the last resort for Cantoro when everything else including calling and threating Mr. Stan James himself

fails. Thats when you give up and admit that something is better than nothing but I think there are still tons of resources left.

First of all is Bill Dozier aware of this issue and what's his verdict on it?

**SBR_John** · 11-25-06, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by SquareShooter

I really don't think its a honest way out unless a player can change odds after he has made a bet too

This should really be the last resort for Cantoro when everything else including calling and threating Mr. Stan James himself

fails. Thats when you give up and admit that something is better than nothing but I think there are still tons of resources left.

First of all is Bill Dozier aware of this issue and what's his verdict on it?

As far as fair, my point was if a match is posted at -650 for the favorite and the avg market line is say -140 then the book is simply not going to honor it. Period. A couple of shops out of the 700+ we follow will and boot the player for betting a bad line. But in my example its simply a bad line and players should know not to bet it because they will not be paid. In this case I dont know that it was a bad line it might not be.

I have not talked to Bill. I hope he can get it resolved. We would certainly approach the book and state the case for them paying. The case here was that the match was over. Its too late to cancel or change.

**RickySteve** · 11-26-06, 03:37 PM

This is a case of past posting, plain and simple. Noone should have any sympathy for him. I'm all in favor of pushing any edge you can find, whether ethical or not, but when you get caught taking a shot, accept it and move on. Don't come crying about it in a forum of which you aren't even a member, acting as though you're a victim when you're nothing but a thief that got busted.

If Stan James is willing to pay you anything above your original stake, you should consider yourself extremely fortunate, little boy.

**SquareShooter** · 11-26-06, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by RickySteve

...acting as though you're a victim when you're nothing but a thief that got busted.... If Stan James is willing to pay you anything above your original stake, you should consider yourself extremely fortunate, little boy....

Sorry can't agree. I tend o believe that rules should e equal for both parties in sportsbetting. Unless player can cancel or change odds after or in the game (which I highly doubt any book would allow) the book should follow the same rules itself.
The book normally has a huge profit margin on every bet and that should allow them to cover all their mistakes. And Stan James is not a rookie in this business.
I just don't understand this your policy RickySteve - you call player a thief and state that book has all rights not to honor its line which is bad upon their own decision - I will bever be able to buy that. Sorry to say but this is lopsided and actually sounds a bit like looserism.
I hope Cantoro fights and wins. Stan James will not get any poorer without these 19k but it will be a good school for them. Be responsible for the line you give. That's not a lot to be asked from a company with annual profits of several millions.

I have balance there as well as other posters. So Cantoro, could you please tell us how are things developing, thank you in advance.

**Santo** · 11-26-06, 05:30 PM

I lean towards calling this past-posting too, if the odds bet were pre-event and off-market after the opening round.

**SquareShooter** · 11-26-06, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Santo

I lean towards calling this past-posting too, if the odds bet were pre-event and off-market after the opening round.

Can you imagine StanJames returning the stake to the player because of past-posting had he lost this bet? I can't. StanJames would have just ignored that the lines are past-post and off-market.

Every one of us must take responsibility and pay for errors we make in all aspects of our lives - professional or private. Sportsbooks are the only exceptions. Doesn't seem fair to me.
I say if you have accepted the bet - honor it. You got huge profit margin on every bet thousands of punters make. You have all the resources and technology in the world to get your lines straight. Taking all that into account if you still fail then be so kind and pay the winner a small share of what you have taken from them before. Seems that sportsbooks consider that zero risk operation is their birth right. I disagree.

**acw** · 11-26-06, 06:15 PM

Trust me! I know what the British are like. They took this bet, which at worst they should have cancelled within 24 hours of it being placed. They simply chose not to; too lazy thinking unlikely to win anyhow on these outsiders. After the event the typical British lets fvck this guy came in their mind. It seems as if this Cantoro is not British, so he probably does not know how to defend himself against them.

Cantoro,
Simply post this story on every possible forum! It is plain robbery. Even RickySteve and Santo know it!

**SBR_John** · 11-26-06, 06:24 PM

It is robbery and they should pay. Does anyone think this size wager went completely un noticed? I assure you that the book knew. Yes, its double shot taking, player and book. However, the player took his shot BEFORE the game while the book took theirs after the result was in. That means the player was the only one at any risk. I would hope the player and book can agree on a fair settlement. It seems there should be plenty of middle ground to work this out.

**Ortho** · 11-26-06, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

Does anyone think this size wager went completely un noticed?

14 Euros 50 cents?

The market prices on the two underdogs he past-posted went from 50-1 and 22-1 to 7-2 and 5-2 before he made his bet, the matches took place in Japan, very likely in the middle of the night in the UK and SJ says that he's taken past-post shots at them before. Case closed.

**natrass** · 11-26-06, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by acw

Trust me! I know what the British are like. They took this bet, which at worst they should have cancelled within 24 hours of it being placed. They simply chose not to; too lazy thinking unlikely to win anyhow on these outsiders. After the event the typical British lets fvck this guy came in their mind. It seems as if this Cantoro is not British, so he probably does not know how to defend himself against them.

Cantoro,
Simply post this story on every possible forum! It is plain robbery. Even RickySteve and Santo know it!

You do talk some shit dont you pal.

**chano** · 11-26-06, 06:37 PM

If the lines were fair to market value at the time the wagers were made. They owe. Period.

**Cantoro** · 11-26-06, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Ortho

The market prices on the two underdogs he past-posted went from 50-1 and 22-1 to 7-2 and 5-2 before he made his bet,

They did not drop at that time to 7-2 and 5-2!

SJ said: I have settled these bets at the prices our Volleyball Trader has determined would have been on offer

our Volleyball Trader has determined would have been on offer

trader of stanjames gave this new prices after the 5 games in pools were finished !!!

**Cantoro** · 11-26-06, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

I would hope the player and book can agree on a fair settlement.

They don't want to discuss in this matter

sj:

This matter is now closed with Stan James, we will not be entering into any further conversations with you. You have been advised by us should you wish to peruse this matter you can take this case to an independent body for gambling

**Ortho** · 11-26-06, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Cantoro

They did not drop at that time to 7-2 and 5-2!

SJ said: I have settled these bets at the prices our Volleyball Trader has determined would have been on offer

our Volleyball Trader has determined would have been on offer

trader of stanjames gave this new prices after the 5 games in pools were finished !!!

Ok, so let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that SJ lied and that:
The 5/2 should've been 5/1 and the 7/2 should've been 7/1.

You still past-posted a 1000-1 underdog when a fair price was more like 35/1.

Perhaps you are a great women's v-ball capper and just thought that both these huge dogs were going to win so you should parlay them but aren't sharp enough to know when the matches were going to be played and accidentally put the bets in late. Or maybe you knew which teams won before you made your bets and took a 14 euro shot that might pay 19,000. I know which side my money is on.

And what about the allegation that you've done this before?

**Cantoro** · 11-26-06, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by Ortho

And what about the allegation that you've done this before?

Read my first post :

As I wrote I bet on 31.10.2006 , on this day first games were played on World Championship , my teams won the games but they were still big big underdogs.

I bet after first games but before next four games and it was OUTRIGHT bet

I have one little question but nobody (from stan james, on this forum) is going to answer :

If the price was not correct WHY DIDN'T STANJAMES VOID THESE BETS ?

**Santo** · 11-26-06, 07:27 PM

Have you past posted on other events before?

**SBR_John** · 11-26-06, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Cantoro

They don't want to discuss in this matter

sj:

This matter is now closed with Stan James, we will not be entering into any further conversations with you. You have been advised by us should you wish to peruse this matter you can take this case to an independent body for gambling

It may indeed be closed but most disputes we attempt to settle are in this state. So we will ask them for a professional courtesy to talk this situation over.

**Ortho** · 11-26-06, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by Cantoro

Read my first post :

As I wrote I bet on 31.10.2006 , on this day first games were played on World Championship , my teams won the games but they were still big big underdogs.

That would be after Serbia beat defending champions Italy 3-1 ( 2006 VOLLEYBALL WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS JAPAN )
and
Taipei beat World #7 Japan ( 2006 VOLLEYBALL WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS JAPAN )?

No team that wins it's first match in a 3-game, 4-team group can be a big underdog to win the group with 2 matches to play. I am not a volleyball expert, but 7/2 about a team that is 1-0 having beaten (apparently, Poland might've been better, I can't tell) the top team in the group, and 5/2 about a team that is 1-0 having just beaten the world champions don't seem like obviously wrong prices to me. What seem like obviously wrong prices in that situation are 50-1 and 22-1.

Regarding you having done it before, I'm referring to the last line of the email in which SJ says

SJ:Having reviewed your account, and found that this is by no means the first time you have attempted to take advantage of pricing errors or errors in publishing, I have taken the decision to permanently close your Stan James account. I have sent your balance of €532.95 back to your **** Card

**Cantoro** · 11-26-06, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Ortho

That would be after Serbia beat defending champions Italy 3-1 ( 2006 VOLLEYBALL WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS JAPAN )
and
Taipei beat World #7 Japan ( 2006 VOLLEYBALL WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS JAPAN )?

No team that wins it's first match in a 3-game, 4-team group can be a big underdog to win the group with 2 matches to play. I am not a volleyball expert, but 7/2 about a team that is 1-0 having beaten (apparently, Poland might've been better, I can't tell) the top team in the group, and 5/2 about a team that is 1-0 having just beaten the world champions don't seem like obviously wrong prices to me. What seem like obviously wrong prices in that situation are 50-1 and 22-1.

And again:

Would you please to answer to my question:

If the price was not correct WHY DIDN'T STANJAMES VOID THESE BETS ?

**Santo** · 11-26-06, 07:51 PM

I'll take that as a yes.

**Ortho** · 11-26-06, 07:51 PM

Because it was a 14 euro bet that didn't get their attention?
Because it was obviously palpable error and they wanted to freeroll you?
Because they knew you were a shot-taker from your previous past-posts (a question you've been asked by multiple people now and keep editing out of your answers, making it very hard to give you the benefit of the doubt) and hoped that you would win so they could disappoint you?
Because they are incompetent?

Since they left the lines up, I'm leaning toward incompetent, but who cares why?

**RickySteve** · 11-26-06, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Cantoro

If the price was not correct WHY DIDN'T STANJAMES VOID THESE BETS ?

They should void them. They were actually doing you a favor in paying you the hypothetical fair market lines.

This forum is intended to help prevent punters from getting cheated by dishonest bookmakers, not to aid lowlifes like you from exploiting technical and clerical errors to steal from legitimate companies.

I suggest you file a grievance with IBAS. I'm sure the arbitrators there could use a good laugh.

**beetman** · 11-27-06, 01:30 PM

I've never understood why people are so quick to blame the player in cases like these, when a lot of top rated books do similar things.

For example, WSEX would gladly let you bet under 44.5 +1900 on last nights Colts/Eagles game when the score was already 31-14, and this wasn't simply a mistake, as the line stayed up for a long time.

Many books will let you bet futures on teams who've already been eliminated from the playoffs. The Jazz family is probably the most notorious for that.

Neither of these things are really any different from betting a future at a stale price.