Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

Start with this one Kid.

I wrote this 11 years ago.

I was approached by an elderly man and asked to train his 2 horses. He seemed very nice and I gladly obliged. His son , along with the sons family took great interest in the game. I ran the first of the 2 horses and had some success. We won a race or 2 with the horse. Just a claimer. No big deal. They were having a lot of fun. The other horse was an unraced horse that had been purchased at a 2 year old in training auction by someone else. They named the horse and in doing so, there was a big attachment to that horse compared to the other horse they had claimed. Anyway, I am working to get this horse ready to run. No small feat. The horse has conformation issues and as a result, problems are popping up. Nothing major, but problems that will likely stay with the horse to some degree as long as he races. As a result of these problems, I am in need of vet assistance several times. Trying to make sure that I am doing the right thing for the horse as well as the owner, I xray his ankle and knee and start slowing down the training process so as to keep him at his level of fitness, but make sure he does not hurt himself along the way. So a month later, the owner and his son are getting excited and antsy as to when he will run. The delay in forward movement, along with the vet bill that detailed an xray , ultra sound for his suspensory and tendon, and some , but not much, legal, therapeutic, medication for the horse, started to bother the father and son. I explained the what, why and how of everything as I did it. They did not like having to pay the vet bill in excess of 200.00 . I told them that typically, it costs ( back in the day) about 50.00 to run a horse each race over and above the roughly 60-100 monthly vet bill that will normally appear.
As the horse started improving physically after a few more weeks, we were back on track. But , before the horse can run his 1st race, the old owner has a heart attack and sadly, within a couple of days , passes away. Very sad.
So the son takes over as the owner and about a month later the horse runs and wins his 2nd or 3rd start. Horse is worth about 15K and goes on to win a couple of races and eventually get claimed. The son decides to stay in the game and claim another horse. All is well as we claim a few horses and do fine. No great shakes, but he did not lose any money, actually showed a profit on most of his claims.
There was a new young trainer who was winning at a phenomenal clip who people were talking about. His dad had trained without much success but the new kid was doing well in the claiming game. Having had a ton of success at an early age myself , I had no problem with that. But as time went on, he started getting positives . Not for a bute overage or mistake drugs that can happen when a foreman screws up and does not oversee the orders to take the horse off of whatever because he is going to run in a week or whatever, but drugs that other horseman know have NO PLACE in the barn area.( there is definitely a difference from drug to drug) They are in no way therapeutic, they are simply drugs that would only be used to gain an edge.This kid proceeds to get 5 positives in less than a year. With the legal process he keeps on running and winning and quite frankly , cheating.
Meanwhile this son as become friends with another owner of mine who had recently come to me. New guy had a couple of horses that had come from a barn that never won. We did O.K., winning a few and losing a few . Hell, he won more races with me in 3 months than he did with the bad trainer in 3 years. This new guy has a horse in on the 4th of July at Pimlico. Having 3 kids of my own from about 6-10 years old, missing the 4th of July parade and things like that were tough but a sacrifice that had to be made because I had to work. So we win the race and new guy decides he wants everyone back at his house for fireworks and a party by the pool . I respectfully decline because I want to spend an hour with MY KIDS doing the firework thing, not with his family. That pissed him off and about a month later, after tasting the winners circle more than ever before, he fired me and went to the young kid with the 5 positives.
The son of the other owner stayed with me and we kept doing fine but he went in partners with his friend who had fired me, on a claim with Mr. positive. 3-4 months later, he claims a horse with Mr. positive on his own, so now he has 2 trainers in Md.
So you can fully appreciate who this son is, he was and still is a high power lawyer with political ties throughout Md. He loves the racing game at this point and becomes a board member of the horseman's board and a few years after this story, a state racing commissioner. He calls me one day and asks me why my vet bills are so LOW. Having never been asked that question before( it was always why are they so high), I asked him to clarify what he means. He said that my vet bills were about 150-200 a month if the horse ran once and his other trainers were about 1000.00 a month. He concluded from that , that the other guy was taking better care of his horses than I was . I told him that I don't know what Mr. positive is doing but I do whatever is legal and necessary to have my horses in peak condition. That was it for that conversation. About a month later, his horse wins, and gets claimed from me. He informs me the next day that he will not be claiming any more with me. As far as I know, he still has horses with Mr. positive.
Here is a guy that went from wondering why his vet bill was as high as 150.00 a month one year to asking why his vet bill is ONLY 150-200 a month the next year.
Mr. positive was able to reach a settlement with all his positives and serve them out concurrently, roughly 60 days. He got a few more in the next year or two. Since then, they I think they have slowed way down and his percentage has come down from the 35-40% range to 18-20%.Have paid no attention though , the last 10 years. Now, I am not saying that this trainer does not know what he is doing. What I am saying is that he cheated more times than anyone should ever be able to get away with.
Being a trainer is very much like being a coach. The day you get hired starts the period of time before you will be fired. Certainly not with all owners, but most assuredly with plenty of them. I was never bitter about being fired by the owner that wanted me for a show pony for his friends to salivate over on the 4th of July. I was very bitter about being fired by the future racing commissioner. Was not the money or the horses that mattered , it was the principles involved that bothered me. In hindsight, that was the very beginning of a lot of negative feelings towards drugs that would eventually be one on a short list of reasons I left the game.
I could write a book on drugs as they relate to horse racing and what goes on . Unfortunately, due to the nature of the business, drugs are understandably way over played by those that do not really understand it . And while testing has caught up to many of these problems in the last 15 years where they could not in the 80s and much of the 90s, things could and should be better. Bettors need to know that people are trying to solve these problems and stay in front of future problems.Many are . However, do not be fooled by organizations like the N.Y.R.A. They have a political agenda a mile long, very little of which has to do with doing the right thing in my opinion. What they have done for decades is to give players the perception that they are interested in right and wrong. I do not feel that fairness has anything to do with what is announced by them publicly.
99.999% of races are not fixed. 99.999% of jockeys try there hardest on every mount. But until the game can be cleaned up by people that understand it instead of politicians or appointed racing delegates , drugs along with several other key elements in racing will continue to hover over the game like the black cloud it is.

[Louisvillekid1]

Good stuff , ty

[Louisvillekid1]

Best read I ever read on this site

write that book

[str]

How you feel about all this cheating

jeez

this is surprising to nobody , but how you feel ?

you’ve seen it

dutrow etc



hope your health is well

The cheating made and still makes me sick.

I have written so many things about cheating, illicit drugs from the late 80's and 90's and all the way up to today throughout this 11 year thread that I know I am repeating myself. I encourage you to take some time when you have it and key word search Dutrow or illegal drugs or picogram or positives or Dutrow trainer tree, in this thread. Or, just take you time and read it all, skipping what does not pertain.

And yes, I have seen it. Illicit drug use and cheating. More than a belly full.

I know exactly how Ricky Dutrow was taught. How? Because I was there. Right there. I went from the lowest rung on the ladder to the highest in 3 years in the Dutrow barn.

Ricky was set up. It was a plant Kid. This isn't a friend thing. It's the damn truth. He was an embarrassment to NYRA. He had to go. This is what they came up with.

I was his fathers asst. trainer in 1975, the year he was the worlds leading trainer. Ricky was I think 15 at the time. There was NEVER any illicit drug use in that barn during my 4 years there. That is because it was never any part of Dickie's training schedule or daily routine. Never. Not a thought of it.

Rickie, Tony, Chip, Me, Mark Reid, Ron Alfano, and the list goes on and on to the tune of well over 13,000 winners have, to my knowledge ever been caught with or tested positive for all this crap that you have read about. A legal drug overage. Maybe once. Maybe.

Do positive's happen? Yes.

Did I ever have one? Yes. 1 picogram of a drug put into an antibiotic to help sooth the pain of the drug into the muscle because it hurts like hell without it. It is how the drug is made. My horse was the favorite and finished 2nd.

I stopped giving it 13 days before the race. It was for as rat bite in my horses rump she incurred while laying down at night. Good ole Pimlico. I had to treat her 3 or 4 days to fight the infection.

The recommended time was 7 days out. Everybody that needed an antibiotic for a horse used it. After that, they changed a 20 year old rule from 7 days to 14 days.

That was One Picogram. But nowadays, Bafferts lawyer will tell the press and anyone dumb enough to believe him that 15 or 20 or more picograms is hardly any at all. It's one trillionth of a gram. Do you know how small that is, askes his lawyer?

Yeah, I do. I got 10 days for one picogram butt head ! And we all know where it came from. And don't even start with that salve crap. If that's what you used, that's worse. How stupid can somebody be? Read the label ! Like the vet that prescribed it didn't know? Like the trainer doesn't know? Really?


This is very hard to talk about at length Lkid. It took from me a game I loved. A game where I went from the greenest hot walker on the planet in Sept. of 1972 to leading trainer at Bowie in 1979.

We won with the first horse I ever saddled in June of 1976. All my school mates were graduating from College. Guess you could say I was as well.

In 1980 my mother was the leading owner in Maryland for races won. I was 26 years old. But 6-7 years later, drugs started showing up and that was the beginning of the end for me.

The claiming game was my bread and butter. But when the drugs arrived my win% went down as others shot up from nowhere.

My choice was use those same drugs or play at a severe disadvantage. I was approached by several owners as to if I would be changing vets and go with those that were cheating. The answer was a sharp NO!

It created an unlevel playing field that I had to play on.

I never considered cheating. The game, in my mind, was bigger than me. But that cost me owner after owner as many went with the new kids in town, albeit a group of cheaters. And don't get me wrong. It was only a group of maybe 5 or 6 people. That vast majority were clean hard working trainers but the claiming game was especially affected by the undetectable drugs.


Ultimately, It convinced me that the game I was in love with was not the same game I was playing anymore.

It took me from 79 horses down to 2 horses within several years. Then back up to 25 horses and could have been more but I decided to leave which took a year and a half plus to see through.

I would never quit as long as my mom was alive. I could not do that to her. She passed away in late 1999.

If not for her, I would have left 8-10 years earlier.

But if not for her, I would have never got my start.

The love and passion of the game was gone. It wasn't coming back. I did the only thing I could do, which was to retire from it in 2001.



Again, I encourage you to sift through these pages if you have any interest. It's all in there. If you have any specific question, fire away. I'll do my best.

You can also go to equibase.com put in my name and look at my stats. You can follow the yearly timeline and with this explanation, it will be very clear as to how by career rolled through from start to finish.

Sorry I could not say more. I started to. But it felt uneasy to do so, so I deleted some of it.

Stay safe, be well and as always, all the best .

[Louisvillekid1]

Ty so much sir for your time

[Louisvillekid1]

You said plenty

omg , I could read those all day

I re read 3 times

not because I’m slow

love you

[Easy-Rider 66]

The cheating made and still makes me sick.

I have written so many things about cheating, illicit drugs from the late 80's and 90's and all the way up to today throughout this 11 year thread that I know I am repeating myself. I encourage you to take some time when you have it and key word search Dutrow or illegal drugs or picogram or positives or Dutrow trainer tree, in this thread. Or, just take you time and read it all, skipping what does not pertain.

And yes, I have seen it. Illicit drug use and cheating. More than a belly full.

I know exactly how Ricky Dutrow was taught. How? Because I was there. Right there. I went from the lowest rung on the ladder to the highest in 3 years in the Dutrow barn.

Ricky was set up. It was a plant Kid. This isn't a friend thing. It's the damn truth. He was an embarrassment to NYRA. He had to go. This is what they came up with.

I was his fathers asst. trainer in 1975, the year he was the worlds leading trainer. Ricky was I think 15 at the time. There was NEVER any illicit drug use in that barn during my 4 years there. That is because it was never any part of Dickie's training schedule or daily routine. Never. Not a thought of it.

Rickie, Tony, Chip, Me, Mark Reid, Ron Alfano, and the list goes on and on to the tune of well over 13,000 winners have, to my knowledge ever been caught with or tested positive for all this crap that you have read about. A legal drug overage. Maybe once. Maybe.

Do positive's happen? Yes.

Did I ever have one? Yes. 1 picogram of a drug put into an antibiotic to help sooth the pain of the drug into the muscle because it hurts like hell without it. It is how the drug is made. My horse was the favorite and finished 2nd.

I stopped giving it 13 days before the race. It was for as rat bite in my horses rump she incurred while laying down at night. Good ole Pimlico. I had to treat her 3 or 4 days to fight the infection.

The recommended time was 7 days out. Everybody that needed an antibiotic for a horse used it. After that, they changed a 20 year old rule from 7 days to 14 days.

That was One Picogram. But nowadays, Bafferts lawyer will tell the press and anyone dumb enough to believe him that 15 or 20 or more picograms is hardly any at all. It's one trillionth of a gram. Do you know how small that is, askes his lawyer?

Yeah, I do. I got 10 days for one picogram butt head ! And we all know where it came from. And don't even start with that salve crap. If that's what you used, that's worse. How stupid can somebody be? Read the label ! Like the vet that prescribed it didn't know? Like the trainer doesn't know? Really?


This is very hard to talk about at length Lkid. It took from me a game I loved. A game where I went from the greenest hot walker on the planet in Sept. of 1972 to leading trainer at Bowie in 1979.

We won with the first horse I ever saddled in June of 1976. All my school mates were graduating from College. Guess you could say I was as well.

In 1980 my mother was the leading owner in Maryland for races won. I was 26 years old. But 6-7 years later, drugs started showing up and that was the beginning of the end for me.

The claiming game was my bread and butter. But when the drugs arrived my win% went down as others shot up from nowhere.

My choice was use those same drugs or play at a severe disadvantage. I was approached by several owners as to if I would be changing vets and go with those that were cheating. The answer was a sharp NO!

It created an unlevel playing field that I had to play on.

I never considered cheating. The game, in my mind, was bigger than me. But that cost me owner after owner as many went with the new kids in town, albeit a group of cheaters. And don't get me wrong. It was only a group of maybe 5 or 6 people. That vast majority were clean hard working trainers but the claiming game was especially affected by the undetectable drugs.


Ultimately, It convinced me that the game I was in love with was not the same game I was playing anymore.

It took me from 79 horses down to 2 horses within several years. Then back up to 25 horses and could have been more but I decided to leave which took a year and a half plus to see through.

I would never quit as long as my mom was alive. I could not do that to her. She passed away in late 1999.

If not for her, I would have left 8-10 years earlier.

But if not for her, I would have never got my start.

The love and passion of the game was gone. It wasn't coming back. I did the only thing I could do, which was to retire from it in 2001.



Again, I encourage you to sift through these pages if you have any interest. It's all in there. If you have any specific question, fire away. I'll do my best.

You can also go to equibase.com put in my name and look at my stats. You can follow the yearly timeline and with this explanation, it will be very clear as to how by career rolled through from start to finish.

Sorry I could not say more. I started to. But it felt uneasy to do so, so I deleted some of it.

Stay safe, be well and as always, all the best .

Hey STR: Thx for your honest take and recollection. The above post was a really good read.

[JBEX]

an excellent article about forego that I thought you might like str..it includes a (grainy) replay of the 1975 marlboro cup at belmont which may have been one of his greatest wins

https://www.americasbestracing.net/the-sport/2022-fabulous-forego-superstar-who-commanded-the-respect-all

[str]

an excellent article about forego that I thought you might like str..it includes a (grainy) replay of the 1975 marlboro cup at belmont which may have been one of his greatest wins


https://www.americasbestracing.net/t...he-respect-all

Thank you JBEX !

Forego was an incredible horse. I remember that race well. Back then, we all had to crowd around a small TV to watch out of town races.
And that's what we all did for this horse.
Whiteley did such a masterful job with him . Mainly because of his lack of soundness. This horse had a heart of gold.

In the race shown, he never switches leads which means he ran on just one side for the last 1/2 mile of the race. He had to be exhausted, between that and carrying all that weight. It was just an amazing performance.

He did lead the post parade for the Marlboro Cup in 1978. And if memory serves, but I am not positive, he practiced for that event by coming to Delaware Park and walking past the grandstand on a Saturday as a farewell appearance. They gave out Forego hats for the event.
I received one. Never wore it ( not much of a hat guy with a head of curls back in the 70's, Lol) but I did keep it.

[str]

Here it is.

[JBEX]

np str

like the hat and pretty cool momento from that day

I was born in '63 so forego was a little before I was into the horses..aware of secretariat and ruffian and later seattle slew but betting wise I would 'say 78 with affirmed/alydar rivalry ..I had $10 on affirmed in the belmont ..believed he was 4/5 there and certainly earned that one lol..but forego definitely not aware or barely aware of him in those days


looked up his record ..57-34-9-7 and just shy of $2M
in earnings.. dont make them like that anymore..so to race him that many times over those 5-6 years ,as you said,has to be a testament to how great a trainer frank whiteley (my avatar for those who don't know) was..carrying that much weight and on the wrong lead ,as you said,only makes it that much more impressive a feat


maybe that took a little sting out of losing ruffian the same year but I guess you're hurting forever from something as horrific as that..imagine what she could've been and produced if that hadn't happened..remember you told me you saw her at mth and she made a lasting impression on you with her take no prisoners stare (if I described it correctly).also the few times you met up with frank whiteley (partly because he stabled near you if i remember correctly) early in your career was also a cool story..

damascus,ruffian and forego over a ten year period is pretty darn good..not many trainers would have 3 stars like that in such a relatively short period of time

[JBEX]

expensive fts by army mule in R6 @ kee tomorrow

[str]

expensive fts by army mule in R6 @ kee tomorrow

That is a heck of a race ! So many potentially nice ones in there. Including the Army Mule.
Having Rosario speaks volumes as to the horses showing in the mornings.
While you never know about firsters, this horse has a real big upside as you know.
He should run well in what looks like a real solid group of babies.

Thanks for the heads up JBEX.

GL if you play.

[JBEX]

That is a heck of a race ! So many potentially nice ones in there. Including the Army Mule.
Having Rosario speaks volumes as to the horses showing in the mornings.
While you never know about firsters, this horse has a real big upside as you know.
He should run well in what looks like a real solid group of babies.

Thanks for the heads up JBEX.

GL if you play.

thanks str

yeah rosario a plus and al stall a stalwart,pun intended,trainer in ky..this is no where near the quality (by auction price) that she'd face at saratoga
so could be a good spot..the horse right above has a solid speed pedigree by uncle mo and out of a meadowlake mare..don't see the latter much on the bottom anymore..must be an older mare

[JBEX]

thanks str

yeah rosario a plus and al stall a stalwart,pun intended,trainer in ky..this is no where near the quality (by auction price) that she'd face at saratoga
so could be a good spot..the horse right above has a solid speed pedigree by uncle mo and out of a meadowlake mare..don't see the latter much on the bottom anymore..must be an older mare

dam did nothing on the track (was raced) and this is her 1st foal to race.. the 2nd dam was a decent runner and producer of some nice horses..plus the dam sire is tapit so some nice bloodlines in the female family

[JBEX]

another AM fts in gp R4..#9 seeking stardom (5-1)..just happen to be looking today


msw on the all weather ..less than stellar field and trainer a good value with msw

[JBEX]

hey str

not looking everywhere but there were 2 AM at belmont on saturday..one finished 3rd @ 5-2 in the matron stakes at 6f on the turf..that one happens to be his leading money earner..another missed by a nose in a msw at 54-1 in his first start..that was also 6f on the turf..a couple (few) days prior $400k auction price didn't do much running in his debut


one other thing of note and has nothing to do with army mule..some bomb prices have been coming in exiting wins or just misses at kentucky downs..I would think good efforts there might toughen them up for the next start..have to keep this in mind when they show up

[str]

hey str

not looking everywhere but there were 2 AM at belmont on saturday..one finished 3rd @ 5-2 in the matron stakes at 6f on the turf..that one happens to be his leading money earner..another missed by a nose in a msw at 54-1 in his first start..that was also 6f on the turf..a couple (few) days prior $400k auction price didn't do much running in his debut


one other thing of note and has nothing to do with army mule..some bomb prices have been coming in exiting wins or just misses at kentucky downs..I would think good efforts there might toughen them up for the next start..have to keep this in mind when they show up

It blows my mind how an army Mule firster at this point could go off 54-1. Lol.


As for Ky. Downs, apparently ( correct me if I am wrong), a real short meet and a track off the beaten path??. I think I read that.

With crazy purses, trainers are pointing for this, and running there best shots for those pots. All that means is you can bet nobody is running just to run. Those that run back fairly quickly IMO are the horses that came out of the race at Ky. Downs perfectly and now run against lesser quality ( probably), while still being in peak shape. Does that make sense?
That probably has a lot to do with running elsewhere and running big. From a trainers point of view, it makes perfect sense.
Is that the case JBEX ?
If it is, you have a serious angle to work with every year Ky. Downs does this.

[JBEX]

It blows my mind how an army Mule firster at this point could go off 54-1. Lol.


As for Ky. Downs, apparently ( correct me if I am wrong), a real short meet and a track off the beaten path??. I think I read that.

With crazy purses, trainers are pointing for this, and running there best shots for those pots. All that means is you can bet nobody is running just to run. Those that run back fairly quickly IMO are the horses that came out of the race at Ky. Downs perfectly and now run against lesser quality ( probably), while still being in peak shape. Does that make sense?
That probably has a lot to do with running elsewhere and running big. From a trainers point of view, it makes perfect sense.
Is that the case JBEX ?
If it is, you have a serious angle to work with every year Ky. Downs does this.

it's a 5 -7 day meet and I'd estimate about 100 miles south of Louisville (actually it's closer to nashville)


I agree with the purses being so high the horses are coming in very fit and ready to run(off the top if I remember correctly about $140k for an allowance race)


also ,as you said, if they ran well there and you see them back in say 2-5 weeks they are probably razor sharp and in great condition..probably even running against horses at the same level in ny and ky they will be facing lesser compared to what they were running against there

it's about 6 seconds in the straightaway to get to the quarter pole which I believe would make the stretch over 1600 feet

[JBEX]

I think it's closer to 4 seconds to reach the quarter pole so that'd chop about 100 feet off my estimate

[JBEX]

hey str

kee R1 #8 editorial comment (8-1)

just when i think ive seen it all ..how about a horse whose last 2 races were in 7 horse fields..last one @ 7f and the prior one @ 5.5f on the turf..
last 2 calls in both races were 7 by 16 and 7 by 29 lengths exactly !!


on the handicapping side i feel he's interesting..2nd by a head in his debut and then 3 straight wins including a grade 2 and 3 in
argentina..I've heard that is the best quality racing in south america


shot for the moon at saratoga and churchill in listed stakes and finished last both times... obviously didn't take to blinkers very well..not sure why they'd try that considering how well he ran without them down (way) south..so they're removed (trainer good with that move ) and lasix is added..the purse for this $30k claimer is significantly more than the purses for the graded stakes in argentina..has to be real fit 3rd off the layoff with all the works surrounding those races


i wonder if this is what they had in mind all along..getting him some exercise in races way over his head and realizing that a spot like this is where he probably belongs


what do you think ?

[str]

hey str

kee R1 #8 editorial comment (8-1)

just when i think ive seen it all ..how about a horse whose last 2 races were in 7 horse fields..last one @ 7f and the prior one @ 5.5f on the turf..
last 2 calls in both races were 7 by 16 and 7 by 29 lengths exactly !!


on the handicapping side i feel he's interesting..2nd by a head in his debut and then 3 straight wins including a grade 2 and 3 in
argentina..I've heard that is the best quality racing in south america


shot for the moon at saratoga and churchill in listed stakes and finished last both times... obviously didn't take to blinkers very well..not sure why they'd try that considering how well he ran without them down (way) south..so they're removed (trainer good with that move ) and lasix is added..the purse for this $30k claimer is significantly more than the purses for the graded stakes in argentina..has to be real fit 3rd off the layoff with all the works surrounding those races


i wonder if this is what they had in mind all along..getting him some exercise in races way over his head and realizing that a spot like this is where he probably belongs


what do you think ?

Plenty of what you said can become a positive. Like the blks. off, 3rd off the layoff, 1st time Lasix, etc. Gotta like the box,( outside post ).

That gives the horse the entire backside to get where it needs to be. Some speed from the 1 , 3 and 4 inside but has a nice outside spot so no excuses there.
Probably enough to like to take a swing with at 9-2 or better hopefully.

I doubt they had getting beat that badly in mind. What a waste of time if they did but I will give them credit at this point for putting him easier and taking advantage of those poor races.

South America is typically weak and Argentina probably best of the weakest links. Those horses can be nervous and washy. If so, can't worry as you don't know if that is always, this time or what. Is what it is.

Interesting horse dropping down.

GL if you play.

[JBEX]

Plenty of what you said can become a positive. Like the blks. off, 3rd off the layoff, 1st time Lasix, etc. Gotta like the box,( outside post ).

That gives the horse the entire backside to get where it needs to be. Some speed from the 1 , 3 and 4 inside but has a nice outside spot so no excuses there.
Probably enough to like to take a swing with at 9-2 or better hopefully.

I doubt they had getting beat that badly in mind. What a waste of time if they did but I will give them credit at this point for putting him easier and taking advantage of those poor races.

South America is typically weak and Argentina probably best of the weakest links. Those horses can be nervous and washy. If so, can't worry as you don't know if that is always, this time or what. Is what it is.

Interesting horse dropping down.

GL if you play.

yeah I guess that was a bit of a reach..they had some hope he might run well in those tough spots..probably not a reach though that the avg graded stakes winner there might only be a mid range claimer at a major track here


good info about SA horses running here


showed a little speed and gave it up quickly..you nailed the odds at 9-2


thanks str

[str]

yeah I guess that was a bit of a reach..they had some hope he might run well in those tough spots..probably not a reach though that the avg graded stakes winner there might only be a mid range claimer at a major track here


good info about SA horses running here


showed a little speed and gave it up quickly..you nailed the odds at 9-2


thanks str

I think you are spot on with the overall assessment of mid range type claimer from Arg. I trained a few over the years. Personally, I preferred not to because they were all nervous, and what we referred to as rubber neck type horses. They were just different in the feel when you galloped them and rode them. I think mine were solid allowance types or hit the board in Stakes while in Arg. horses. Most found a winning spot in Md. at about the 3rd or 4th declension up in open claimers. So about 10-12k these days I guess. More like 6,500 back in the day with the bottom being 3,000. Not much better than that though. Sometimes less.
It's unfair to lump them ALL in of course but this would be more of an overview comment.

I saw the chart. The horse ran to the turn and just quit. Don't know if the horse is bleeding through Lasix. I'm sure he was scoped after the race. If there is no breathing or bleeding going on, this one has just fallen apart up here. What a mess.

Ran terrible but I must say that I like how you look at the pp's. He was an easy toss if you aren't reading between the lines. But everyone can read the same lines. IMO, it's the subtle stuff that carry's the day as well as the value when you find it.

Keep up the good work JBEX.

[JBEX]

I think you are spot on with the overall assessment of mid range type claimer from Arg. I trained a few over the years. Personally, I preferred not to because they were all nervous, and what we referred to as rubber neck type horses. They were just different in the feel when you galloped them and rode them. I think mine were solid allowance types or hit the board in Stakes while in Arg. horses. Most found a winning spot in Md. at about the 3rd or 4th declension up in open claimers. So about 10-12k these days I guess. More like 6,500 back in the day with the bottom being 3,000. Not much better than that though. Sometimes less.
It's unfair to lump them ALL in of course but this would be more of an overview comment.

I saw the chart. The horse ran to the turn and just quit. Don't know if the horse is bleeding through Lasix. I'm sure he was scoped after the race. If there is no breathing or bleeding going on, this one has just fallen apart up here. What a mess.

Ran terrible but I must say that I like how you look at the pp's. He was an easy toss if you aren't reading between the lines. But everyone can read the same lines. IMO, it's the subtle stuff that carry's the day as well as the value when you find it.

Keep up the good work JBEX.

thanks str.. nice compliment that you like some of the views on races that I have


I like trying to find out of the box things keeping in mind that sometimes you can stretch things a little too far..that's usually a gray area in itself but that's what makes the game so challenging..don't think going off the beaten path should be an automatic way to play a race


sure as you said there will be exceptions and some of the argentinian horses will be successful at higher levels..Paseana for Ron Mcanally would be one example of that and believe he had at least a couple of others from down there that were really good horses..but generally speaking you agree with my class assessment for a lot these horses which is useful info going forward

[str]

thanks str.. nice compliment that you like some of the views on races that I have


I like trying to find out of the box things keeping in mind that sometimes you can stretch things a little too far..that's usually a gray area in itself but that's what makes the game so challenging..don't think going off the beaten path should be an automatic way to play a race


sure as you said there will be exceptions and some of the argentinian horses will be successful at higher levels..Paseana for Ron Mcanally would be one example of that and believe he had at least a couple of others from down there that were really good horses..but generally speaking you agree with my class assessment for a lot these horses which is useful info going forward

Totally agree. What I see you doing though is not taking every horse at straight face value, meaning, trying to get to the "why" whatever took place last race happened. That applies to winning races as well as losing ones. Trying to have an understanding of why something occurred be it good or bad brings another dynamic into play. THAT, is what can separate handicappers.

Nobody will always be right, but if you don't try and see it from that light, you will never see anything except the obvious. And the obvious, as you and many here know, can be very misleading if taken at face value.

[JBEX]

Totally agree. What I see you doing though is not taking every horse at straight face value, meaning, trying to get to the "why" whatever took place last race happened. That applies to winning races as well as losing ones. Trying to have an understanding of why something occurred be it good or bad brings another dynamic into play. THAT, is what can separate handicappers.

Nobody will always be right, but if you don't try and see it from that light, you will never see anything except the obvious. And the obvious, as you and many here know, can be very misleading if taken at face value.

yes in general I'm not looking for horses who won or were close in their last race while running a good figure .same would go for a trouble comment and an itm finish ..exiting a fast race by figure or thinking the horse might have needed a race more what I like especially if that was the case once before..I think passing horses who ran really well last out is a good starting point for any handicapper..when they beat you (which they've been doing a lot of to me lately) just realize you're doing the right thing for your bottomline over the long haul

[JBEX]

hey str

army mule had a winner in a mcl at kee yesterday..just figured I'd mention since he has one at laurel on sunday

R5 #1 ellie victorina (7-2)

looks like she got out bad and then closed like a banshee to get 3rd..don't think they'll be any betting value there being trained by brittany russell

i like john robb's horse #2 genieinabridle (6-1) ..1st 2 races real nice but regressed with the blinkers last out..she has that dome running line in that race that i thought you might find interesting..they don't say they're coming off though which is kind of interesting considering her first two starts

side note..interesting how a pa bred can run in a statebred race at colonial downs ..maybe mid atlantic state bred horses can run in sb stakes at other mid atlantic tracks ? just saw md breds don't have to run for a tag in this race ..nice purse for this level also

[str]

hey str

army mule had a winner in a mcl at kee yesterday..just figured I'd mention since he has one at laurel on sunday

R5 #1 ellie victorina (7-2)

looks like she got out bad and then closed like a banshee to get 3rd..don't think they'll be any betting value there being trained by brittany russell

i like john robb's horse #2 genieinabridle (6-1) ..1st 2 races real nice but regressed with the blinkers last out..she has that dome running line in that race that i thought you might find interesting..they don't say they're coming off though which is kind of interesting considering her first two starts

side note..interesting how a pa bred can run in a statebred race at colonial downs ..maybe mid atlantic state bred horses can run in sb stakes at other mid atlantic tracks ? just saw md breds don't have to run for a tag in this race ..nice purse for this level also

Probably no value. Will be bet down and a tough post to break slow from again.
Wouldn't be at all surprised if it wins though.

Dome running line? Like a Z pattern?

I'm guessing Great Notion is a Md. sire. I don't know though. They did not have that condition when I trained.
And Colonial always had wacky State Bred rules even back in the day. So just guessing on that race as well.

[JBEX]

Probably no value. Will be bet down and a tough post to break slow from again.
Wouldn't be at all surprised if it wins though.

Dome running line? Like a Z pattern?

I'm guessing Great Notion is a Md. sire. I don't know though. They did not have that condition when I trained.
And Colonial always had wacky State Bred rules even back in the day. So just guessing on that race as well.

have seen great notion's name but had no idea he was the number 1 maryland sire over the the past 4 years

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/129886/great-notion

dome pattern pretty vague and should have explained..basically fall back 1st to 2nd call.. ideally 2nd to 3rd call pretty even and then gain 3rd to 4th..talking lengths behind vs position

[str]

have seen great notion's name but had no idea he was the number 1 maryland sire over the the past 4 years

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/129886/great-notion

dome pattern pretty vague and should have explained..basically fall back 1st to 2nd call.. ideally 2nd to 3rd call pretty even and then gain 3rd to 4th..talking lengths behind vs position

I had no idea about Great Notion either. Just assumed because the horse can run for no tag and it must be Md. sired. Man, I've lost touch of breeding in Md. that's for sure.

Yes. So "Dome" and "Z" pattern are the same thing . I always called it a Z pattern. Heck, there was probably only one dome when I started calling it that. Lolol.

I always paid a lot of attention to that JBEX. Used to claim a lot of cheap claimers based on that, especially when the fractions made it a faster than typical finish. The race shape had a lot to do with it obviously . This was before replays were easy to see. Home team sports used to run the race replays at 4AM the next morning. I had a VCR set up in my office. Had a library full of replays.
Anyway, bottom line is, I never dismiss a Z pattern(dome) without a hard look. I know you don't either.

[JBEX]

I had no idea about Great Notion either. Just assumed because the horse can run for no tag and it must be Md. sired. Man, I've lost touch of breeding in Md. that's for sure.

Yes. So "Dome" and "Z" pattern are the same thing . I always called it a Z pattern. Heck, there was probably only one dome when I started calling it that. Lolol.

I always paid a lot of attention to that JBEX. Used to claim a lot of cheap claimers based on that, especially when the fractions made it a faster than typical finish. The race shape had a lot to do with it obviously . This was before replays were easy to see. Home team sports used to run the race replays at 4AM the next morning. I had a VCR set up in my office. Had a library full of replays.
Anyway, bottom line is, I never dismiss a Z pattern(dome) without a hard look. I know you don't either.

yeah I remember you talking about the z pattern but for some reason didn't link them up.. interesting to know it's something you would use to claim a horse..watching replays has to be an important part of a claiming trainers routine although believe I remember you saying that you were unique in doing that at the time


side note :

I was looking at northview stallion roster.. they have a horse galawi (ire) who is 5 years old and guessing her first crop of weanlings might next year.. thing that amazed me is the horse has such an impeccable pedigree yet she'll be standing at northview farms for a whopping fee of $2k.


by dubawi and out of a galileo mare.. only the 2 most expensive stallions in the world (galileo deceased last year)


the female family is also extremely impressive which of course is no surprise with the dam sire.. I attached something from the farm's site that gives a brief description of the bottom...have to keep an eye on this one a little bit down the road.. with those specs the fee is a real puzzle to me

https://northviewstallions.com/stallions/galawi/

[JBEX]

debuted on his 3yo birthday and finished 2nd at chantilly in france..no specifics about field size or distance..2nd start was in may,also at chantilly (believe that's top notch racing) and finished 3rd ..laid off till June the following year (2021) and broke his maiden vs specials at belmont..that was his final race so obviously durability questions and never got to prove himself vs top company is probably why it's so low (of course that's no small thing) ..one heck of a pedigree for that price though..the sad thing is I didn't think of this before commenting .. the blade is getting duller by the day

[str]

debuted on his 3yo birthday and finished 2nd at chantilly in france..no specifics about field size or distance..2nd start was in may,also at chantilly (believe that's top notch racing) and finished 3rd ..laid off till June the following year (2021) and broke his maiden vs specials at belmont..that was his final race so obviously durability questions and never got to prove himself vs top company is probably why it's so low (of course that's no small thing) ..one heck of a pedigree for that price though..the sad thing is I didn't think of this before commenting .. the blade is getting duller by the day

A year off is a serious injury that required surgery or a ton of time if it was a tendon.

At that low of a stud fee, it must be a confirmation issue where the people breeding to him are concerned it will pass down.

No doubting the bloodlines. Rock solid there.

Oh, and don't worry about the blade getting duller. Happens to the best of us. At least you haven't made me apply ice yet like I did to you a couple of months ago with Flightline's pedigree. Lol.

All the best.

[JBEX]

A year off is a serious injury that required surgery or a ton of time if it was a tendon.

At that low of a stud fee, it must be a confirmation issue where the people breeding to him are concerned it will pass down.

No doubting the bloodlines. Rock solid there.

Oh, and don't worry about the blade getting duller. Happens to the best of us. At least you haven't made me apply ice yet like I did to you a couple of months ago with Flightline's pedigree. Lol.

All the best.

confirmation another thing I wouldn't think of and since this horse actually had some success on the track makes sense that might come into play..will be very unique bloodlines to introduce to u.s based horses ..need some speed on the bottom with that pedigree


remember that one .. glad you're ok lol !


thanks str

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