Horse Racing questions and answers

[Easy-Rider 66]

STR: Good hit on the World Cup Soccer contest. You were you just throwing Darts or do you follow the Game?

[str]

hey str

I handicap a msw and I like a first time starter..the horse is 5-1 ml
and I feel the public will probably
bet him down to around 7-2..the horse winds up going off at 7-1..assuming the person who's capping the race has at least an educated opinion how much does it bother you that this horse is going off seemingly too high ? do you feel over time the fact that you're getting the higher odds even out
the cold on the board ? I mean i'm not going to lose in all these situations and when I do cash I'll be doing it at a good price..i want to keep this example at big tracks so it takes more money to get the horse bet down

Big tracks is the key to this JBEX. As you know, small pools will get manipulated so assuming big tracks and big pools I would have to admit that being cold on the board is a bit worrisome. But I would want to know cold early, late, doubles, exactas? I would be looking at all of those. And I would not let 7-1 instead of 7-2 get me off the horse completely but in that case I don't think I would be betting more. Maybe slightly less, or the normal play. I would also look at the rider and make sure it was the same rider used with successful firsters that the trainer starts. Sometimes that is a clear sign. I guess what I would be doing is trying to find a reason for the cold board. Maybe another firster took a ton of money? If I could not find anything I would probably make the play while gritting my teeth.Lol.

It probably comes close to evening out but there is a lot to be said about a cold on the board firster when it is from ( I assume) a Pletcher, Ward, Brown, etc. or big name type with firsters. I would be surprised if the cold firster does more than even out. I would guess it would be a little under even out but it would be brutal to not play it and it win at a nice price.

[str]

STR: Good hit on the World Cup Soccer contest. You were you just throwing Darts or do you follow the Game?

Thanks EASY.

Just throwing darts.

The old , "even a blind squirrel" routine.

[JBEX]

Big tracks is the key to this JBEX. As you know, small pools will get manipulated so assuming big tracks and big pools I would have to admit that being cold on the board is a bit worrisome. But I would want to know cold early, late, doubles, exactas? I would be looking at all of those. And I would not let 7-1 instead of 7-2 get me off the horse completely but in that case I don't think I would be betting more. Maybe slightly less, or the normal play. I would also look at the rider and make sure it was the same rider used with successful firsters that the trainer starts. Sometimes that is a clear sign. I guess what I would be doing is trying to find a reason for the cold board. Maybe another firster took a ton of money? If I could not find anything I would probably make the play while gritting my teeth.Lol.

It probably comes close to evening out but there is a lot to be said about a cold on the board firster when it is from ( I assume) a Pletcher, Ward, Brown, etc. or big name type with firsters. I would be surprised if the cold firster does more than even out. I would guess it would be a little under even out but it would be brutal to not play it and it win at a nice price.

thanks str..the 3 you mentioned I wouldn't play most of the time because they're too obvious..my one exception would be the modest pedigree vs price ones..I love those and if I remember correctly army mule was one of those.. $800k at auction by 4k sire friesan fire..

but not to get off the point I like to win with the middle to lower echelon trainers when they occasionally get their hands on something real good..obviously more likely to get a square price with them

I do agree in general though a little worrisome
when they're going off too high..I prefer early money and drift up vs the other way if the odds do move

[str]

thanks str..the 3 you mentioned I wouldn't play most of the time because they're too obvious..my one exception would be the modest pedigree vs price ones..I love those and if I remember correctly army mule was one of those.. $800k at auction by 4k sire friesan fire..

but not to get off the point I like to win with the middle to lower echelon trainers when they occasionally get their hands on something real good..obviously more likely to get a square price with them

I do agree in general though a little worrisome
when they're going off too high..I prefer early money and drift up vs the other way if the odds do move

Let me add to my last comment:

I think that if we are talking about middle and lower echelon trainers, the public doesn't usually tend to drive down the price on on their firsters do they?
Maybe 5 or 6-1 is more realistic especially against a big name stable. If that is the case, I would be much less inclined to worry about the price at 7-1. I guess it is about which big name trainer, if any, has a horse in the race . We know that they are almost always over bet.

[JBEX]

Let me add to my last comment:

I think that if we are talking about middle and lower echelon trainers, the public doesn't usually tend to drive down the price on on their firsters do they?
Maybe 5 or 6-1 is more realistic especially against a big name stable. If that is the case, I would be much less inclined to worry about the price at 7-1. I guess it is about which big name trainer, if any, has a horse in the race . We know that they are almost always over bet.

yes I agree.. their's are less likely to be bet down as much and lots of these middle range guys will get at least 1 or 2 of that caliber...
the englehart's, ralph nicks, george weaver and even mott I bet will give it a go every once in a while up here.. have a 2nd time starter of his in R2.. there are others not listed of course

[mrginandtonic]

Big tracks is the key to this JBEX. As you know, small pools will get manipulated so assuming big tracks and big pools I would have to admit that being cold on the board is a bit worrisome. But I would want to know cold early, late, doubles, exactas? I would be looking at all of those. And I would not let 7-1 instead of 7-2 get me off the horse completely but in that case I don't think I would be betting more. Maybe slightly less, or the normal play. I would also look at the rider and make sure it was the same rider used with successful firsters that the trainer starts. Sometimes that is a clear sign. I guess what I would be doing is trying to find a reason for the cold board. Maybe another firster took a ton of money? If I could not find anything I would probably make the play while gritting my teeth.Lol.

It probably comes close to evening out but there is a lot to be said about a cold on the board firster when it is from ( I assume) a Pletcher, Ward, Brown, etc. or big name type with firsters. I would be surprised if the cold firster does more than even out. I would guess it would be a little under even out but it would be brutal to not play it and it win at a nice price.

Ah, the art of tote board handicapping. I remembered many years ago, I knew this guy at the track, all he used was the program book and the tote board and looking at the horses the post parade. He was probably the best I have ever seen. Wish I knew how he did it.....

[JBEX]

the 2nd timer by mott in R2 going 2 turns on the turf (2yo) did this in his first at belmont


6f....5-4/5-6/5-8/5-10 in a 6 horse field.. so 5th all the way around losing exactly 2 lengths per call.. do you think besides experience that gives a horse some extra fitness vs a work?

[str]

the 2nd timer by mott in R2 going 2 turns on the turf (2yo) did this in his first at belmont

6f....5-4/5-6/5-8/5-10 in a 6 horse field.. so 5th all the way around losing exactly 2 lengths per call.. do you think besides experience that gives a horse some extra fitness vs a work?

The old adage was a race was better than 2 works for fitness.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Martine Bellocq, the courageous trainer who went into the fires of hell in an attempt to save her horses last December at San Luis Rey Downs training center, has been selected to be the recipient of the 15th Laffit Pincay, Jr. Award. The prestigious honor and handsome trophy named for, and bestowed by, the Hall of Fame rider will be presented to Bellocq on Saturday, August 18, the day the track runs its signature race, the $1,000,000 TVG Pacific Classic.Bellocq, who suffered life-threatening burns over much of her body, then had to go through a series of demanding surgeries and subsequently lost a foot due to circulation complications. Despite all that, she has steadfastly worked her way back from near death in a display of strength and spirit that has amazed her doctors, family and friends. When she leads the contingent of heroes who'll be on board that afternoon, she'll be making her first public appearance since the December 7 fire.“When I heard about what Martine went through for her horses, I knew she was meant to be honored in some way for her courage,” said champion rider Pincay. “I am so proud to be able to give her this award. She deserves it as the representative of all those brave horsemen who went to their horses instead of running the other way for themselves.”Bellocq will be joined by her family, including her husband, Pierre, as well as many of the trainers, grooms and other stable hands who released trapped horses that afternoon when a wind-whipped fire raced through eight barns at the 250-acre training site which housed more than 400 Thoroughbreds at the time. The raging blaze took the lives of 46 horses, but if horsemen had not valiantly fought their way through fire and smoke to release their penned up animals, the majority of those horses undoubtedly could have been lost in what might have become the worst fire disaster in racing history.

[JBEX]

hey str

john servis who is becoming ,if not already, an elite trainer has a 2yo 2nd starter at parx today..based at parx he shipped to mth on 6/23 and ran 2nd ..the purse for a msw is 36k
so he picked up $7200..more than likely the competition better there despite the purse differential of 9k in favor of parx..the horse is $190k yearling purchase with a sprint slanted pedigree so not just some cheapie that he's shipping

have to think that's not the worst outcome..pick up the check for 2nd and then race at home for 20% more purse ($45k)..he's even money ml today and will probably go off 1-5 in this field..just curious approximately what the round trip to mth might cost from parx.. do you think he had this scenario in mind considering purse differential and level of competition between the tracks ??

[JBEX]

learned something looking at the chart.. 3/16th's - 3/8th's - str (lol) are the points of call in 5f races.. makes sense but never realized it..won by 7 lengths at 2-5 but no minus pool

it's a funny thing but before the simulcast era (heard it's not true anymore) that 2-5 and lower actually showed a few percent profit over huge samples of races.. favorite-longshot bias explained it as no one cares about making 20 cents on the dollar (in this case 40 cents) so they actually pay more than they should.. of course you have to step up to the plate with a big bet or it doesn't mean much.. but even for a small bet you were beating the track take by blindly betting them and if you're a little choosey maybe improve on the small profit.. too bad the numbers supposedly don't pan out that way anymore but if you or anybody else knows anything about this topic love to hear more about it

[str]

Sorry for the delay guys. Keep the questions coming . I will get to everything this weekend.

[JBEX]

Sorry for the delay guys. Keep the questions coming . I will get to everything this weekend.

np str..look forward to your response

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: Any comments on the retirement of Justify? And In your opinion how serious is his injury? Something about an ankle filling? Thx.

[str]

Martine Bellocq, the courageous trainer who went into the fires of hell in an attempt to save her horses last December at San Luis Rey Downs training center, has been selected to be the recipient of the 15th Laffit Pincay, Jr. Award. The prestigious honor and handsome trophy named for, and bestowed by, the Hall of Fame rider will be presented to Bellocq on Saturday, August 18, the day the track runs its signature race, the $1,000,000 TVG Pacific Classic.Bellocq, who suffered life-threatening burns over much of her body, then had to go through a series of demanding surgeries and subsequently lost a foot due to circulation complications. Despite all that, she has steadfastly worked her way back from near death in a display of strength and spirit that has amazed her doctors, family and friends. When she leads the contingent of heroes who'll be on board that afternoon, she'll be making her first public appearance since the December 7 fire.“When I heard about what Martine went through for her horses, I knew she was meant to be honored in some way for her courage,” said champion rider Pincay. “I am so proud to be able to give her this award. She deserves it as the representative of all those brave horsemen who went to their horses instead of running the other way for themselves.”Bellocq will be joined by her family, including her husband, Pierre, as well as many of the trainers, grooms and other stable hands who released trapped horses that afternoon when a wind-whipped fire raced through eight barns at the 250-acre training site which housed more than 400 Thoroughbreds at the time. The raging blaze took the lives of 46 horses, but if horsemen had not valiantly fought their way through fire and smoke to release their penned up animals, the majority of those horses undoubtedly could have been lost in what might have become the worst fire disaster in racing history.

I cannot thank you enough EASY for sending me this press release. I knew she was badly hurt and I knew she was going to make it but I did not know she lost a foot. That is so sad. She loved to ride and knowing her, she still will albeit with one foot. Congratulations to her for being recognized as one of the many backstretch heroes that risked everything for her horses.

Laffit is a great guy. I really wish I knew him better than I did. Our meetings were very brief and always business. I have heard a bunch of stories about him from close friends and everybody agrees he is all class. After I retired he met a friend of mine and had really kind words to pass along to me. He didn't have to do that. Just shows what a great person he is. I really did appreciate it. It meant a lot coming from him.

[str]

hey str

john servis who is becoming ,if not already, an elite trainer has a 2yo 2nd starter at parx today..based at parx he shipped to mth on 6/23 and ran 2nd ..the purse for a msw is 36k
so he picked up $7200..more than likely the competition better there despite the purse differential of 9k in favor of parx..the horse is $190k yearling purchase with a sprint slanted pedigree so not just some cheapie that he's shipping

have to think that's not the worst outcome..pick up the check for 2nd and then race at home for 20% more purse ($45k)..he's even money ml today and will probably go off 1-5 in this field..just curious approximately what the round trip to mth might cost from parx.. do you think he had this scenario in mind considering purse differential and level of competition between the tracks ??

Q. just curious approximately what the round trip to mth might cost from parx.

A. Adjusting for price changes since I left, I would say it would be about 500.00 or 600.00 round trip. ( I doubled it). Maybe a bit more. Probably a two hour trip each way. Van trips adjust with purses and I haven't done that for I guess it is 18 years now.

Q. do you think he had this scenario in mind considering purse differential and level of competition between the tracks ??

A. For that to happen, no. But I think he would admit that it was a decent consolation prize providing the horse came out fine which it seems it did if he is entered back . I am sure it crossed his mind that he could hook a buzzsaw up there but I have to think he felt his horse would give anyone that enters a solid run for their money.
When something like that happens, chances are either a race did not go or the race was at a distance he did not feel was in the horses best interest or he had another horse for the home track race and did not want to run an entry or could not run an entry because it was a Daily Double or something like that. Something made him pick up a Monmouth condition book while stabled at Parx. ( Assuming he is. I have no idea.)
As for the purse, They must have very high expectations for that pricey a sprinter. I think he is trying to put together a string of races that will get the horse where they want to be and a 9K difference in purse doesn't carry too much weight this early on in the script. It is more about the horse and what is best for him at this point, as well it should be.

[Easy-Rider 66]

[QUOTE=str;27943890]I cannot thank you enough EASY for sending me this press release. I knew she was badly hurt and I knew she was going to make it but I did not know she lost a foot. That is so sad. She loved to ride and knowing her, she still will albeit with one foot. Congratulations to her for being recognized as one of the many backstretch heroes that risked everything for her horses.

Laffit is a great guy. I really wish I knew him better than I did. Our meetings were very brief and always business. I have heard a bunch of stories about him from close friends and everybody agrees he is all class. After I retired he met a friend of mine and had really kind words to pass along to me. He didn't have to do that. Just shows what a great person he is. I really did appreciate it. It meant a lot coming from him.[/QUO

Glad I remembered about the post in here on Martine STR. What a courageous lady Martine is. To do what she did is incredible. What a devotion to her horses.

[JBEX]

Q. just curious approximately what the round trip to mth might cost from parx.

A. Adjusting for price changes since I left, I would say it would be about 500.00 or 600.00 round trip. ( I doubled it). Maybe a bit more. Probably a two hour trip each way. Van trips adjust with purses and I haven't done that for I guess it is 18 years now.

Q. do you think he had this scenario in mind considering purse differential and level of competition between the tracks ??

A. For that to happen, no. But I think he would admit that it was a decent consolation prize providing the horse came out fine which it seems it did if he is entered back . I am sure it crossed his mind that he could hook a buzzsaw up there but I have to think he felt his horse would give anyone that enters a solid run for their money.
When something like that happens, chances are either a race did not go or the race was at a distance he did not feel was in the horses best interest or he had another horse for the home track race and did not want to run an entry or could not run an entry because it was a Daily Double or something like that. Something made him pick up a Monmouth condition book while stabled at Parx. ( Assuming he is. I have no idea.)
As for the purse, They must have very high expectations for that pricey a sprinter. I think he is trying to put together a string of races that will get the horse where they want to be and a 9K difference in purse doesn't carry too much weight this early on in the script. It is more about the horse and what is best for him at this point, as well it should be.

i get what you're saying str..with a horse like that they're more concerned with getting him on the right path vs earning a few extra dollars..he won impressive but didn't beat much imo..thanks again

[JBEX]

one other question regarding army
mule..considering that he cost 800k
is 3/3 and won those races by a combined 22 lengths(the last being the carter handicap at aqueduct by 6+)..they were quite spread out though and you felt he probably had some issues..he's 4yo and if he's not ready to return this year do you think they're pondering putting him out to stud.. would you want to bring him back as a 5yo even if he was very sound ?? have to think he's established quite a bit of value with what he's done and what he cost..he's a ridgeling if that means anything..heard many of those turned out to be solid sire's including one of the all-timers a p indy

[str]

i get what you're saying str..with a horse like that they're more concerned with getting him on the right path vs earning a few extra dollars..he won impressive but didn't beat much imo..thanks again

Yes, but it is OK if he did not beat much as he needed to win to get the party started.

His next start is probably a Stake so they will learn a lot with that race.

[str]

learned something looking at the chart.. 3/16th's - 3/8th's - str (lol) are the points of call in 5f races.. makes sense but never realized it..won by 7 lengths at 2-5 but no minus pool

it's a funny thing but before the simulcast era (heard it's not true anymore) that 2-5 and lower actually showed a few percent profit over huge samples of races.. favorite-longshot bias explained it as no one cares about making 20 cents on the dollar (in this case 40 cents) so they actually pay more than they should.. of course you have to step up to the plate with a big bet or it doesn't mean much.. but even for a small bet you were beating the track take by blindly betting them and if you're a little choosey maybe improve on the small profit.. too bad the numbers supposedly don't pan out that way anymore but if you or anybody else knows anything about this topic love to hear more about it

Not sure I could contribute much more to what you said.

I was never involved in testing out ROI on big favs.

[str]

one other question regarding army
mule..considering that he cost 800k
is 3/3 and won those races by a combined 22 lengths(the last being the carter handicap at aqueduct by 6+)..they were quite spread out though and you felt he probably had some issues..he's 4yo and if he's not ready to return this year do you think they're pondering putting him out to stud.. would you want to bring him back as a 5yo even if he was very sound ?? have to think he's established quite a bit of value with what he's done and what he cost..he's a ridgeling if that means anything..heard many of those turned out to be solid sire's including one of the all-timers a p indy

I think that decision would be based on exactly what was wrong with him. Obviously something is.

Some things are able to be dealt and if they go bad, they are not catastrophic while others , if they go bad could be catastrophic.

I think that the problem calls the shot.

If he can make it back, the BC sprint would seal the deal. Just have no idea of if that could happen this year.

Racing at 5 might not be terrible figuring he would only run 2-3 times.

Guess it's all about the timing.

[JBEX]

I think that decision would be based on exactly what was wrong with him. Obviously something is.

Some things are able to be dealt and if they go bad, they are not catastrophic while others , if they go bad could be catastrophic.

I think that the problem calls the shot.

If he can make it back, the BC sprint would seal the deal. Just have no idea of if that could happen this year.

Racing at 5 might not be terrible figuring he would only run 2-3 times.

Guess it's all about the timing.

I gotcha..being it's at churchill the mile will be at 1 turn, so they could consider that assuming they do run him of course..hope we see him again

the only thing I was referring to with the huge favorites was they were shown to be slightly profitable ( low single digits) over an extremely large sample before simulcasting..just find it interesting that a bet people always knock is actually slightly profitable..
was curious if anbody else was familiar with it in the forum while I was mentioning it to you.. that's all

[str]

Hey STR: Any comments on the retirement of Justify? And In your opinion how serious is his injury? Something about an ankle filling? Thx.

From the looks of two pictures that I saw of Justify, he was not retired just for the hell of it or for the money as I have read.

The 1st picture I saw was him walking back before the Preakness. I remember looking at his ankle joints and seeing perfection.

The 2nd picture I saw of him was about 3 weeks ago after it was announced that he was going to be re evaluated in two weeks. He was walking with no bandages on. That was shocking to me. Why? Because it put the trainer in a really bad spot if he DID decide to continue to run and IF something bad had happened. But, as soon as I saw that picture, I knew he was going to be retired.

A trainer like Baffert would never walk Justify for all to see and allow him to be second guessed. Second guessed how? His front ankle looked totally different. The joint was filled and it looked from that one picture that the ankle probably had a chip or small fracture in it. I know, it's just one picture. But I have seen a ten thousand ankles like that and several weeks earlier the ankle was perfect. It's shape in the front of his ankle gave every indication that some bone trauma had occured. Maybe not, but if not, it was damn close to that.

He absolutely hurt himself while training and there is no way you run a horse like that under those circumstances, no matter the exact cause of the filling and inflammation that was in the ankle.

It was serious injury. Not one bit life threatening though.

If he was a lesser horse, he would have been off 6-9 months in all probability .

But being Justify, the trainer did the only thing he could do.

[Easy-Rider 66]

OK STR; Thx for the take. Too bad. Would have liked to see Justify run a couple more times.

[JBEX]

hey str

you would have to look at the pp's for this one so as always no offense if you can't or would rather not ..

R6 at saratoga the winner was #3
high promise..didn't have him but decided to look back at it to see if there was anything interesting..his line in the race on 7/28 at mth I think you would agree is very similar to his last running line..both were off layoffs with last year's off a very long one..following last year's he ran a very impressive race losing by a half length..not only did he just miss but he did it on the front end of a scorching pace (by the figs)..in this one he stretched out 3 furlongs and won impressively..do you think that's a coincidence or running that type of race off the layoff set him up nicely for the wins ?

[JBEX]

hey str

you would have to look at the pp's for this one so as always no offense if you can't or would rather not ..

R6 at saratoga the winner was #3
high promise..didn't have him but decided to look back at it to see if there was anything interesting..his line in the race on 7/28 at mth I think you would agree is very similar to his last running line..both were off layoffs with last year's off a very long one..following last year's he ran a very impressive race losing by a half length..not only did he just miss but he did it on the front end of a scorching pace (by the figs)..in this one he stretched out 3 furlongs and won impressively..do you think that's a coincidence or running that type of race off the layoff set him up nicely for the wins ?

would also like to add after just looking again the. 9/24 race at belmont very similar and he followed that up with a solid 2nd at low odds..the other two were more alike though

[str]

would also like to add after just looking again the. 9/24 race at belmont very similar and he followed that up with a solid 2nd at low odds..the other two were more alike though

Having trouble finding PP's. Any suggestions?

[Easy-Rider 66]

Having trouble finding PP's. Any suggestions?

Check your PM's when you get a chance.

[str]

hey str

you would have to look at the pp's for this one so as always no offense if you can't or would rather not ..

R6 at saratoga the winner was #3
high promise..didn't have him but decided to look back at it to see if there was anything interesting..his line in the race on 7/28 at mth I think you would agree is very similar to his last running line..both were off layoffs with last year's off a very long one..following last year's he ran a very impressive race losing by a half length..not only did he just miss but he did it on the front end of a scorching pace (by the figs)..in this one he stretched out 3 furlongs and won impressively..do you think that's a coincidence or running that type of race off the layoff set him up nicely for the wins ?

It probably set him up for a big effort stretching out off the one race and short layoff.

There is no coincidence when horses show well 1st off a lay, or 2nd off the lay. If they repeat the same type of form it is almost always something the horse really likes.
You can find horses like this but this one was a bit hidden with the big provious being a Blks. on and 1st (L). The May 24 race is somewhat hidden but it looks like the horse ran very well there as well but was in a bunch of trouble around the turn. Replays would have told that story.
I love finding stuff like that on horses. I always look for it when capping. Like the every other race horse who can never string two in a row but runs very well every other time. They are more common at lesser tracks with cheaper horses. Those are nice play ons but great play againsts as they are always bet down off the good race. An auto toss usually.
You can absolutely find stuff like this. And you did. Very nice catch JBEX.

[str]

would also like to add after just looking again the. 9/24 race at belmont very similar and he followed that up with a solid 2nd at low odds..the other two were more alike though

I see what you are saying but I latched onto the 2nd off the lay angle and think that had I been looking, I would have focused on the 2nd races off time and not the 9/24 race other than to better realize that the horse could run those efforts.

[str]

Check your PM's when you get a chance.

Lol. Thanks again EASY !

[JBEX]

It probably set him up for a big effort stretching out off the one race and short layoff.

There is no coincidence when horses show well 1st off a lay, or 2nd off the lay. If they repeat the same type of form it is almost always something the horse really likes.
You can find horses like this but this one was a bit hidden with the big provious being a Blks. on and 1st (L). The May 24 race is somewhat hidden but it looks like the horse ran very well there as well but was in a bunch of trouble around the turn. Replays would have told that story.
I love finding stuff like that on horses. I always look for it when capping. Like the every other race horse who can never string two in a row but runs very well every other time. They are more common at lesser tracks with cheaper horses. Those are nice play ons but great play againsts as they are always bet down off the good race. An auto toss usually.
You can absolutely find stuff like this. And you did. Very nice catch JBEX.

wow I didn't see that one.. I know you can debate pace figures but I like to use them.. he had a +19/+15
which averages to about 8 lengths faster than par (boy I hope dividing those numbers by 2 gives you lengths or I've been doing it wrong for a couple of years lol...pretty sure it's right).. but to gain 2 lengths into that rapid pace and encounter trouble at the quarter pole and then regather and gain 3 lengths in the stretch is quite an effort..although the race may have been collapsing anyway from the aforementioned quick pace..thats a better find than what I asked you about originally imo.. thanks for the response str

[str]

wow I didn't see that one.. I know you can debate pace figures but I like to use them.. he had a +19/+15
which averages to about 8 lengths faster than par (boy I hope dividing those numbers by 2 gives you lengths or I've been doing it wrong for a couple of years lol...pretty sure it's right).. but to gain 2 lengths into that rapid pace and encounter trouble at the quarter pole and then regather and gain 3 lengths in the stretch is quite an effort..although the race may have been collapsing anyway from the aforementioned quick pace..thats a better find than what I asked you about originally imo.. thanks for the response str

Hope it helps JBEX.

Any way to post the horses form for all to see?