Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

Wow! Thank you so much for your advice and information. I truly appreciate it. All this makes sense to me and I think I can follow. I do have one follow up questuon.

When a horse moves up in class or down in class for a race is this a good thing or bad thing? Is moving up good and moving down bad or reverse? I suppose it would depend on the circumstances but is there a general rule to follow? Thanks again str!

I would not try and classify it as either. Too many variables. You can consider a drastic drop down, like 20k down to 5k bad BUT probably bad long term not necessarily that day. Probably best to just stay away from those types all together until you have more races under your belt .
i trained a lot of claimers in my day and used any reason possible from a horses last race to drop them in class and win a race. It's a gambling game within the game amongst trainers. Not betting. It is getting away with running a horse for less than its worth and not having it claimed away. A drop down is not always a negative nor is a raise up always a positive Just handicap and see if that horse fits and right or wrong, watch the replays for better understanding the outcome.
Hope that makes sense.

[Pmaynard19]

I would not try and classify it as either. Too many variables. You can consider a drastic drop down, like 20k down to 5k bad BUT probably bad long term not necessarily that day. Probably best to just stay away from those types all together until you have more races under your belt .
i trained a lot of claimers in my day and used any reason possible from a horses last race to drop them in class and win a race. It's a gambling game within the game amongst trainers. Not betting. It is getting away with running a horse for less than its worth and not having it claimed away. A drop down is not always a negative nor is a raise up always a positive Just handicap and see if that horse fits and right or wrong, watch the replays for better understanding the outcome.
Hope that makes sense.

Thanks str. Makes sense to me. I understand why this could go either way. I will take your advice. Thanks again.

[StackinGreen]

It is getting away with running a horse for less than its worth and not having it claimed away.

to avoid a supplemental or entry fee? is that because they "need" races and you're trying to get them those races without it costing to much for the owner, etc.?

[str]

to avoid a supplemental or entry fee? is that because they "need" races and you're trying to get them those races without it costing to much for the owner, etc.?

No not at all. Entry into claiming races is free. And needing races is an excuse for bad trainers unless the horse is a bad work and morning horse and has been laid off at least 60 days IMO. You don't need to work fast to be fit. Anything short of 60 days off, no excuses in my eyes as long as you have had access to the track almost daily.
What I am talking about is which level to run your horse.

Here is what I meant:

Things happen in races that are unintended, such as this one.

You own a horse and it is running for 12k claiming and running 3,4,5th a lot with an occasional 2nd. Pretty consistent horse and runs every few weeks and is sound and grinding out minor profits. Then one day, the horse , still running for the same price at the same track runs 8th or last or pretty bad. We did not expect that have no idea why. Next morning the horse is lame with a foot abscess. ( a blood blister from a deep bruise probably from stepping on a rock on the track several days ago before the race. He was sound the day of the race to jog and warm up but it hurt him running at full speed so the horse did not try. It hurt too much. But sound coming back because it only hurt like hell at full speed. But by the next morning it had festered and was terribly sore.) A simple fix in about a week and the horse is good as new.

This gives you a reason to drop the horse down in class, off a bad race and no apparent excuse as far as other trainers can see.( only apparent to you). So you can drop to 10k and be one of the best horses if not THE best horse and probably win. OR, you can take a shot and drop the horse down 2 notches to 8k and be dominant. Better still, take the regular rider off and put a bug rider on and it gives the appearance on paper that the horse is sore and an apprentice will maybe let the supposed sore horse run while the old rider might not.

You win, no claims and raise the horse back up to 10k, win again and you have stolen 2 wins and then you decide to run again for 10k or try 12k again. With 2 wins in a row, your horse is mentally better than it was while hitting the board but not winning. So horse, owner, groom and trainer are all happy. THAT, is turning lemons into lemonade Stackin.
No need to stiff horses or all that stuff. Plenty of unforeseen things happen without causing things to happen. All I did was take advantage of a poor race because I knew why and no one else did.
On a side note, if the horse gets claimed for 8k, it probably runs back for 10k and if I want the horse back, I claim it back for 10k. Still better off than I was before the unintentional bad race.
Many things such as this can and will happen over time. You just have to have the balls to roll the dice and play the game fair but hard when the opportunity presents itself.

That was what I was talking about.

Hope that clears it up.

Who you like in the Preakness?

[StackinGreen]

Thanks for the explanation.

Gunnevera, actually. I think the probability is that as usual, the Derby winner will take it but I see the race unfolding as speedier earlier than people are thinking, which means Classic Empire and possibly Conquest Mo pressing Always Dreaming. If I'm right that Gunnevera will run much better and there is some pace to run at, I'll take the price. I actually just looked up and saw that he's down to 5-1 now ... much more movement and I'll be very skittish on that kind of 15-1 ML move down.

I will be playing the pick 5 though.

[Heppy10]

I agree there is a lot of speed in this race and your missing the fastest of all the #2 Cloud Computing, him and the 10 will go to the front and the 4 and 5 will sit just off IMO. The best closers IMO are the 1,6,9 but the 9 is a deep closer and with this shorter distance will be to far back i think. My longshot pick is the #1 Multiplier to close on the 4 and win. My finish order is 1,4,6,2,9

[StackinGreen]

I like it Heppy, as I said earlier, 1 and 6 are my plays, I'm actually cappin a race with more speed than most expect. I just favor Gunnevera a bit more than Multiplier, but maybe the IL Derby winner is a monster. They are 3 year olds, so we've always got a chance at a surprise (like Bernardini).

I'll being playing something very similar to your combo. I foresee AD getting 2nd, just like you have him ... getting the other spots will be tough.

[harthebar]

Good afternoon. Str,
I have a curious question. .... being just a player and not on the inside of the paddock..but I was once in the metropolitan mile 3 years ago when chrome was running in the belmont....another story. But I did have flip flop on....and was getting the evil eye.
Anyway. The preakness. I did play cloud computing. With classic empire and looking at lee.

Javier was on another horse I believe gennevera
In the derby. Which cloud was not on.....and in the preakness he jumped. .either I'm assuming he has a deal with Chad brown or he just thought that gennevera wasn't that good or should I say good enough to win Preakness ... ..o ly by riding him before ....
But if jockeys have contracts ...deals. ....
.orv whstever.... ...let's say he did have an agreement with Chad brown.....but he liked gennevera. Better .could he have stayed .? Or is he forced to switch.......or is there is a commitment. ....like John and todd. How does that usually play out how much power does a jockey actually have. .

[str]

Good afternoon. Str,
I have a curious question. .... being just a player and not on the inside of the paddock..but I was once in the metropolitan mile 3 years ago when chrome was running in the belmont....another story. But I did have flip flop on....and was getting the evil eye.
Anyway. The preakness. I did play cloud computing. With classic empire and looking at lee.

Javier was on another horse I believe gennevera
In the derby. Which cloud was not on.....and in the preakness he jumped. .either I'm assuming he has a deal with Chad brown or he just thought that gennevera wasn't that good or should I say good enough to win Preakness ... ..o ly by riding him before ....
But if jockeys have contracts ...deals. ....
.orv whstever.... ...let's say he did have an agreement with Chad brown.....but he liked gennevera. Better .could he have stayed .? Or is he forced to switch.......or is there is a commitment. ....like John and todd. How does that usually play out how much power does a jockey actually have. .

Q. Javier was on another horse I believe gennevera
In the derby. Which cloud was not on.....and in the preakness he jumped. .either I'm assuming he has a deal with Chad brown or he just thought that gennevera wasn't that good or should I say good enough to win Preakness ... ..o ly by riding him before ....
But if jockeys have contracts ...deals. ....
.orv whstever.... ...let's say he did have an agreement with Chad brown.....but he liked gennevera. Better .could he have stayed .? Or is he forced to switch.......or is there is a commitment. ....like John and todd. How does that usually play out how much power does a jockey actually have. .[/QUOTE]

A. They rarely have actual contracts anymore . It is usually verbal. In this case, the riders agent probably used the we ride for Chad excuse to get off Gunnyevera. You never know for sure though. If Chad had asked for a 1st call on him for the Preakness before the Drby and that horse had won, I don't think he would have gotten off a Derby winner to ride Cloud.
Probably what happened here is the horse did not run so hot, Chad wanted him, so it was an easy call to make for both parties.
It is a game of politics . another game within the game. It's usually diplomatic as the agent tries to keep everyone happy. Sometimes that just cant work but that is the agents job.
But if a agent gives a first call to a rider for a particular race, they are 100% committed to ride that first call. It does not matter who enters in that race , that rider is spoken for. The only way that rider can get out of that call is if the trainer allows him to. But, remember, these guys have to play nicely together everyday. So there is usually give and take now and then to keep both sides happy.
If everyone puts their egos aside and uses common sense or tries seeing it from the other guys side, it's usually not too hard to figure it out. But... you can't become abusive or allow yourself to be abused either.
Like I said, it's politics and favors between riders and trainers that keep relationships going. But if one side gets too abusive, the relationship sours.
It's tricky, but happens everyday. It's happening right this moment on a backstretch somewhere.

[StackinGreen]

I was right about the makeup, I was right about the race, Gunnevera bled and the field was just weak, let's be real here

Cloud Computing was all over the place in the stretch, Classic Empire had a commanding lead, he's supposed to be class, he can't even hang on with a commanding lead over the last furlong at 1 3/16?

I don't like either of those three year olds moving ahead. It was a weak race with little competition or top efforts firing. I will be playing against both for the rest of the year.

No Mo Dough? I had him at 9-1 on the undercard, I think he's the best 3 yo.

Mark My Words.

[harthebar]

Great answer. Thanks. The rider gets 10% in most cases. ...and in most cases if the rider. Doesn't get a good finish. He gets zip ? I heard that all riders get paid something. Just for the mount ? At some tracks..

...would riders like Mike smith. Would he ever get a better deal. Bonuses. Let's say for breeders cup winner .
You think owners go after jockeys just for example. I'll pay you an extra 5 % if you ride for me. ........
You know. My favorite journeyman.....if that's what he is called. I think he is very underrated
Chris decarlo. Think he gets so much out of a horse

[str]

Great answer. Thanks. The rider gets 10% in most cases. ...and in most cases if the rider. Doesn't get a good finish. He gets zip ? I heard that all riders get paid something. Just for the mount ? At some tracks..

...would riders like Mike smith. Would he ever get a better deal. Bonuses. Let's say for breeders cup winner .
You think owners go after jockeys just for example. I'll pay you an extra 5 % if you ride for me. ........
You know. My favorite journeyman.....if that's what he is called. I think he is very underrated
Chris decarlo. Think he gets so much out of a horse

Q.The rider gets 10% in most cases. ...and in most cases if the rider. Doesn't get a good finish. He gets zip ? I heard that all riders get paid something. Just for the mount ? At some tracks..

A. Riders get 10% if they win. Typically 5% for 2nd and 3rd in graded Stakes and about 100.00 for off the board. Each track has a payout schedule that is for all to see. It's in the back of condition books typically.

Q. .would riders like Mike smith. Would he ever get a better deal. Bonuses. Let's say for breeders cup winner .You think owners go after jockeys just for example. I'll pay you an extra 5 % if you ride for me.

A. 10% is almost always the case. They can have their plane fair and accommodations paid for if they travel. And yes, they can get a bonus of a breeding season or things like that in very high end cases. but an extra 5%? Never saw that and if the rider gets it, how about the trainer and all the help. The rider spends 10 minutes on the horse and the trainer and help spend all year. That can be a slippery slope trying to keep all parties happy.


Q. My favorite journeyman.....if that's what he is called. I think he is very underrated
Chris decarlo. Think he gets so much out of a horse

A. I knew Chris from when he rode in Maryland. Real nice guy, speed type rider if memory serves. I rode him on some horses. Probably have a win picture or two of him on my horses from back in the day. Isn't he old now? Lol.

[harthebar]

Q.The rider gets 10% in most cases. ...and in most cases if the rider. Doesn't get a good finish. He gets zip ? I heard that all riders get paid something. Just for the mount ? At some tracks..



Q. .would riders like Mike smith. Would he ever get a better deal. Bonuses. Let's say for breeders cup winner .You think owners go after jockeys just for example. I'll pay you an extra 5 % if you ride for me.

A. 10% is almost always the case. They can have their plane fair and accommodations paid for if they travel. And yes, they can get a bonus of a breeding season or things like that in very high end cases. but an extra 5%? Never saw that and if the rider gets it, how about the trainer and all the help. The rider spends 10 minutes on the horse and the trainer and help spend all year. That can be a slippery slope trying to keep all parties happy.


Q. My favorite journeyman.....if that's what he is called. I think he is very underrated
Chris decarlo. Think he gets so much out of a horse

A. I knew Chris from when he rode in Maryland. Real nice guy, speed type rider if memory serves. I rode him on some horses. Probably have a win picture or two of him on my horses from back in the day. Isn't he old now? Lol.

yes chris decarlo is about 47 , he does well with a speed horse. he just won on a speed horse last mont

A. Riders get 10% if they win. Typically 5% for 2nd and 3rd in graded Stakes and about 100.00 for off the board. Each track has a payout schedule that is for all to see. It's in the back of condition books typically.
h a grade 1 race green gratto......wire to wire, big long shot.......once again great info...always enjoy reading your writing, that i never was sure of, they get paid 100.00 just for the ride.....is that standard or does it go track to track
thanks str....again........

[str]

yes chris decarlo is about 47 , he does well with a speed horse. he just won on a speed horse last mont

A. Riders get 10% if they win. Typically 5% for 2nd and 3rd in graded Stakes and about 100.00 for off the board. Each track has a payout schedule that is for all to see. It's in the back of condition books typically.
h a grade 1 race green gratto......wire to wire, big long shot.......once again great info...always enjoy reading your writing, that i never was sure of, they get paid 100.00 just for the ride.....is that standard or does it go track to track
thanks str....again........

Q. they get paid 100.00 just for the ride.....is that standard or does it go track to track

A. A little more some places and a little less at cheaper tracks but they always get paid something.
The size of the purse dictates the amount as well.
The better the purse, the higher the payout.

[mrginandtonic]

Something that I saw today that kind of bother me. I would like your opinion on it as a trainer. There was a maiden race in which one of the horses that was entered was a 9 yr maiden. The last time that horse raced was back in 2012. As a trainer, would you have bring that horse back in the racing circuit?? That trainer was also the owner of that horse. I know there are horses that still race at that age and horses have a pretty long life span. Yet, given the fact it has been 7 yrs since that was entered the track, it just seems weird to me to bring that horse back. Is there a "proper" age to retire a horse? Just a thought.....

[str]

Something that I saw today that kind of bother me. I would like your opinion on it as a trainer. There was a maiden race in which one of the horses that was entered was a 9 yr maiden. The last time that horse raced was back in 2012. As a trainer, would you have bring that horse back in the racing circuit?? That trainer was also the owner of that horse. I know there are horses that still race at that age and horses have a pretty long life span. Yet, given the fact it has been 7 yrs since that was entered the track, it just seems weird to me to bring that horse back. Is there a "proper" age to retire a horse? Just a thought.....

Hi Mr. G and T,

Q. Something that I saw today that kind of bother me. I would like your opinion on it as a trainer. There was a maiden race in which one of the horses that was entered was a 9 yr maiden. The last time that horse raced was back in 2012. As a trainer, would you have bring that horse back in the racing circuit??

A. I can't imagine ANY circumstance that would bring me to think that was a good idea. So my answer would be never.

Q. That trainer was also the owner of that horse.

A. And that is what you see most often when you see this stuff. Homebred, or owner or in the family , whatever. I think it is sad.

Q. I know there are horses that still race at that age and horses have a pretty long life span.

A. I am fine with 9 year olds running if they are sound to run. And most 9 year olds that are racing are.

Q. Yet, given the fact it has been 7 yrs since that was entered the track, it just seems weird to me to bring that horse back.

A. It is. I find it ridiculous.

Q. Is there a "proper" age to retire a horse?

A. If you know that horse and are true to what you used to see, and what you do see, it's not very hard at all. Provided of course,the health and well being of the horse is truly put first.
So I think that it is not a set age, it is a case by case thing.

Bottom line is in many cases like this, and I know nothing about any of these particulars, people mean well but more times than not are NOT really horsemen. They are people playing around with horses. and while that might be fine for many venues, training to run in a race is not one of them. But it happens. Maryland had a rule and I assume still does that no maiden over the age of 5 could be entered. Other places like Phila. and Charles town did not. I mean , what is the point? Whatever the point, it can't be a solid point for the horse. And for that reason alone, I have answered the way I did.
I would raise the age to 6 if it were up to me, but no maiden past the age of 6 would be allowed to run . Period. That would be my opinion.

And now a feel good story about a not too old race horse(not a maiden though but for some reason your question reminded me of this).

I remember retiring a horse once. He was done. Can't remember for sure but it was something like he had a tendon or partially torn ligaments and was slow and just could not do it anymore. Something like that. So I gave him away to solid people for retirement. As soon as he got there, he started sulking. Over a few months it got so bad the people called me up and asked if I could come to the farm and see him. I was shocked when I saw him. If I had not known better of the owners, I would have sworn they were starving him to death. But that was definitely not the case. I brought him back to the track , just to live in one of my stalls until I could get him eating again and figure out what to do.( I had like 50 horses so one more didn't really cost much.) I had a barn at Bowie and it was the 1st barn in a long line just across the street from the 3/4 pole and the chute for 6 and 7 F. races. I put him on the front side so he could look out at the track.Well, as soon as the races started running he was all lit up. Eyes wide open, ears up and he started eating. And eating and eating. So much so that I needed to get him some exercise. I was teaching a young kid who wanted to be a jockey how to ride and it was a perfect opportunity for him to groom, and ride ( sit on and walk around the barn) the horse. After about 3-4 weeks the horse was doing so well that he needed more exercise. The jockey to be was also ready for a next step so I allowed him to go to the indoor track called the Hacienda that you could see from the grandstand that was right next door to my barn. From there and a few weeks after that, we went to the track. That jock to be, stayed right with the horse for about 2 months. The horse was doing great. His biggest problem at the farm was a broken heart. He had no will to do anything. He would have died. Instead, he became one of my lead ponies and thrived for many years if memory serves. Very much like the Lava Man story you hear about. Mine though, was a lifetime claimer. They don't get the press that the Stakes horses get. But some times they get just as much love.
That has happened many times over the years. About one in 10-15 of those ponies you see out at the track taking horses to the post or outrider ponies, are ex race horses that loved the track and the game and were either too old, sore or too slow to race. But they loved the game. And being turned out in a paddock , while fine for most, like retirement, is not fine for some. They are individuals, just like you and me.
Oh, and that jock too be? His name was Michael Hunter. Patient, sit still, save ground, closing type rider. Other than the horse from the farm, Mike was the happiest one in the barn because until the horse came back, I only let Mike ride bales of hay. Until he could do one hundred squeezes with each hand of that hand squeezing grip thing that was out in the early 80's and until he could switch sticks back and forth without dropping it , hay bales was it. This was years before the mechanical horse was invented. Man did Mike struggle with his left hand doing those things. Eventually, he got it.
He went on to win over a thousand races riding mostly in Maryland and California. He was the speed duel jockey in the movie Seabiscuit in 2003. It was a trip watching that movie and when they were in the gate, There was Mike and Joe Rocco Jr. Mike won his 1st race for me and I think Joe did as well. If not Joe's 1st, it was his 2nd.
Mike was the only rider I ever tried to teach . I figured I would quit while I was ahead. Lol.

Have a great day Mr. G and T. !

[RangeFinder]

STR,

Something that has been lacking in my horse playing career is looking at the horses in the paddock before the race. I know about shiny coats, prancing feet and pricked ears, but is there something distinct that you have learned that tells you a horse is ready to run a big one by looks in the paddock, something that jumps out at you and the horse usually runs lights out?

Thanks ahead of time for the answer.

[str]

STR,

Something that has been lacking in my horse playing career is looking at the horses in the paddock before the race. I know about shiny coats, prancing feet and pricked ears, but is there something distinct that you have learned that tells you a horse is ready to run a big one by looks in the paddock, something that jumps out at you and the horse usually runs lights out?

Thanks ahead of time for the answer.

Good Question.

It really helps if you can know the horse or horses from previous races. So you can compare pluses or minuses from race to race.

That said, I can't say anything that jumps out when they run well but 2 things that can really jump out when they do not run so well.

1. Getting a shoe put back on or fixed in the paddock. This is really tough on a horse. And it throws all the rhythm off . If they fix it in under a minute , that is ok but most times it takes about 5 minutes or even longer and I am sure that if you just tossed that horse from winning your ROI would be easily plus.


2. Seeing them all lathered up in the post parade. This one really helps if you know how the horse generally is. It can be acceptable to be a bit washy especially in the summer and some horses do it all the time. But the heavy lather between the back legs ( looks like vanilla ice cream between their legs) is never a positive. Same with on the neck where the rubber and leather or nylon reigns are rubbing the neck. Not only is this nerve related but can and is often times a signal of an uncomfortable horse that has had trouble working out any stiffness or been able to warm up as well as it would have liked.
If I would make notes on any one thing if I could see the post parade at the same track, it would be the all lathered up type I just spoke about. It's hard to be that wired or uncomfortable and then break well, relax and finish.
It just makes sense when you hear what I just said. One can rarely be both.
And again, I would just toss from winning a shoe repair of more than a minute or so.
If you can keep these notes, it should really help.
I hope it does. Let me know.

[RangeFinder]

Good Question.

It really helps if you can know the horse or horses from previous races. So you can compare pluses or minuses from race to race.

That said, I can't say anything that jumps out when they run well but 2 things that can really jump out when they do not run so well.

1. Getting a shoe put back on or fixed in the paddock. This is really tough on a horse. And it throws all the rhythm off . If they fix it in under a minute , that is ok but most times it takes about 5 minutes or even longer and I am sure that if you just tossed that horse from winning your ROI would be easily plus.


2. Seeing them all lathered up in the post parade. This one really helps if you know how the horse generally is. It can be acceptable to be a bit washy especially in the summer and some horses do it all the time. But the heavy lather between the back legs ( looks like vanilla ice cream between their legs) is never a positive. Same with on the neck where the rubber and leather or nylon reigns are rubbing the neck. Not only is this nerve related but can and is often times a signal of an uncomfortable horse that has had trouble working out any stiffness or been able to warm up as well as it would have liked.
If I would make notes on any one thing if I could see the post parade at the same track, it would be the all lathered up type I just spoke about. It's hard to be that wired or uncomfortable and then break well, relax and finish.
It just makes sense when you hear what I just said. One can rarely be both.
And again, I would just toss from winning a shoe repair of more than a minute or so.
If you can keep these notes, it should really help.
I hope it does. Let me know.

Thanks! I'll watch for the shoe repairs. As far as the horse lathering or cheesing, I sort of watch for that though I've had a few horses beat me at the wire who were lathered. One I remember was a class horse named Olympio. This horse would be a soaking mess and then run lights out. Weird horse but he beat me a few times when i thought he was toast in the parade, lol.

[str]

Thanks! I'll watch for the shoe repairs. As far as the horse lathering or cheesing, I sort of watch for that though I've had a few horses beat me at the wire who were lathered. One I remember was a class horse named Olympio. This horse would be a soaking mess and then run lights out. Weird horse but he beat me a few times when i thought he was toast in the parade, lol.

Yep. He did that every race. So did Seattle Slew. Lol.

The key is to find horses that do not ordinarily get that lathered up but are today or vice versa. A downward trend or an upward one for that day. Especially claimers or not Stakes horses , like those two monsters . Lol.

[JBEX]

hey str... being it's Memorial Day and he was a Green Beret what better day to ask.. Did you know Richard Small?
.. guessing his career overlapped yours pretty well.. know he passed away in 2014..no rush to answer .. see you've been pretty busy on here today lol

[str]

hey str... being it's Memorial Day and he was a Green Beret what better day to ask.. Did you know Richard Small?
.. guessing his career overlapped yours pretty well.. know he passed away in 2014..no rush to answer .. see you've been pretty busy on here today lol

Oh man, I sure did. What a tremendous guy he was.

I could go on and on about him.

He stabled at Pimlico whenever Maryland was running.

The ladies loved him. Heck, so did a lot of guys like me. Lol.

He told some stories that I could only share in private but have no doubt they were true.

He served in Nam and indeed he was a Green Beret. What a guy.

Probably told this in here before but why not again.

Delaware Park had a softball league for race trackers every summer back when Md. closed down and all of us would go to Del Park for the summer. Games started at 6pm about an hour after the last race.

I had a team called the Reem Team. Named after the 70's porn start of course. What the hell, I was 21. The Rolling Stone tongue was on the front of our tee shirt and everyone's first name with the last name Reems was on the back.

Dickie didn't have enough players for a full team and most were girls. So he teamed up with his friend Burly Cocks, of jumping rider fame. They used to have jumps a few days a week on the card for the 1st and 2nd race.
So those two formed a team called the "Small Cocks". We were a lock for best team name until that occurred. Lol.
What a guy he was.

I won the Ceasars Wish stakes at Pimlico in March of 1987.
That's me on the right end of the high picture getting the trophy and Dickie next to me with the hat.
It was an honor to have known him.

Harthebar is going to love this !

[JBEX]

yeah I think you were outdone with team names...too funny...remember whenever I saw a picture of Richard in the form it seemed he was always wearing the brimmed hat.. knew he was a great trainer but of course there was no internet to look things up.. saw his wiki page and he has quite the resume definitely hall of fame worthy.. trying to think of the one owner I always associated with him but can't remember it.. if I heard it sure i would know..bet that you know the answer to that... sure the war stories he told you are something else but understand that's private stuff.. cool pic and thanks for posting it.. finally see the face behind "str"

[mrginandtonic]

Hi Mr. G and T,

Q. Something that I saw today that kind of bother me. I would like your opinion on it as a trainer. There was a maiden race in which one of the horses that was entered was a 9 yr maiden. The last time that horse raced was back in 2012. As a trainer, would you have bring that horse back in the racing circuit??

A. I can't imagine ANY circumstance that would bring me to think that was a good idea. So my answer would be never.

Q. That trainer was also the owner of that horse.

A. And that is what you see most often when you see this stuff. Homebred, or owner or in the family , whatever. I think it is sad.

Q. I know there are horses that still race at that age and horses have a pretty long life span.

A. I am fine with 9 year olds running if they are sound to run. And most 9 year olds that are racing are.

Q. Yet, given the fact it has been 7 yrs since that was entered the track, it just seems weird to me to bring that horse back.

A. It is. I find it ridiculous.

Q. Is there a "proper" age to retire a horse?

A. If you know that horse and are true to what you used to see, and what you do see, it's not very hard at all. Provided of course,the health and well being of the horse is truly put first.
So I think that it is not a set age, it is a case by case thing.

Bottom line is in many cases like this, and I know nothing about any of these particulars, people mean well but more times than not are NOT really horsemen. They are people playing around with horses. and while that might be fine for many venues, training to run in a race is not one of them. But it happens. Maryland had a rule and I assume still does that no maiden over the age of 5 could be entered. Other places like Phila. and Charles town did not. I mean , what is the point? Whatever the point, it can't be a solid point for the horse. And for that reason alone, I have answered the way I did.
I would raise the age to 6 if it were up to me, but no maiden past the age of 6 would be allowed to run . Period. That would be my opinion.

And now a feel good story about a not too old race horse(not a maiden though but for some reason your question reminded me of this).

I remember retiring a horse once. He was done. Can't remember for sure but it was something like he had a tendon or partially torn ligaments and was slow and just could not do it anymore. Something like that. So I gave him away to solid people for retirement. As soon as he got there, he started sulking. Over a few months it got so bad the people called me up and asked if I could come to the farm and see him. I was shocked when I saw him. If I had not known better of the owners, I would have sworn they were starving him to death. But that was definitely not the case. I brought him back to the track , just to live in one of my stalls until I could get him eating again and figure out what to do.( I had like 50 horses so one more didn't really cost much.) I had a barn at Bowie and it was the 1st barn in a long line just across the street from the 3/4 pole and the chute for 6 and 7 F. races. I put him on the front side so he could look out at the track.Well, as soon as the races started running he was all lit up. Eyes wide open, ears up and he started eating. And eating and eating. So much so that I needed to get him some exercise. I was teaching a young kid who wanted to be a jockey how to ride and it was a perfect opportunity for him to groom, and ride ( sit on and walk around the barn) the horse. After about 3-4 weeks the horse was doing so well that he needed more exercise. The jockey to be was also ready for a next step so I allowed him to go to the indoor track called the Hacienda that you could see from the grandstand that was right next door to my barn. From there and a few weeks after that, we went to the track. That jock to be, stayed right with the horse for about 2 months. The horse was doing great. His biggest problem at the farm was a broken heart. He had no will to do anything. He would have died. Instead, he became one of my lead ponies and thrived for many years if memory serves. Very much like the Lava Man story you hear about. Mine though, was a lifetime claimer. They don't get the press that the Stakes horses get. But some times they get just as much love.
That has happened many times over the years. About one in 10-15 of those ponies you see out at the track taking horses to the post or outrider ponies, are ex race horses that loved the track and the game and were either too old, sore or too slow to race. But they loved the game. And being turned out in a paddock , while fine for most, like retirement, is not fine for some. They are individuals, just like you and me.
Oh, and that jock too be? His name was Michael Hunter. Patient, sit still, save ground, closing type rider. Other than the horse from the farm, Mike was the happiest one in the barn because until the horse came back, I only let Mike ride bales of hay. Until he could do one hundred squeezes with each hand of that hand squeezing grip thing that was out in the early 80's and until he could switch sticks back and forth without dropping it , hay bales was it. This was years before the mechanical horse was invented. Man did Mike struggle with his left hand doing those things. Eventually, he got it.
He went on to win over a thousand races riding mostly in Maryland and California. He was the speed duel jockey in the movie Seabiscuit in 2003. It was a trip watching that movie and when they were in the gate, There was Mike and Joe Rocco Jr. Mike won his 1st race for me and I think Joe did as well. If not Joe's 1st, it was his 2nd.
Mike was the only rider I ever tried to teach . I figured I would quit while I was ahead. Lol.

Have a great day Mr. G and T. !

I am glad that I am not the only one that feels that way. As it turned out, that horse was scratched, I don't know if it was an early scratch or at late scratch. Anyways, I feel the same way and I am glad that he did not get to run. Also, thanks for sharing your stories and I can totally see that some race horse would want to be near the racing environment. And the way you have treated them is simply first class.

I do have a faint memory of Michael Hunter. Not as vividly as you have, I think he was racing in the mid 90's in Southern California. For some reason, when you mentioned him, Chris Antley's name popped into my head as well. Other than that, I don't remember much about him. Nonetheless, it was a good story and thanks for sharing.

[JBEX]

Something that I saw today that kind of bother me. I would like your opinion on it as a trainer. There was a maiden race in which one of the horses that was entered was a 9 yr maiden. The last time that horse raced was back in 2012. As a trainer, would you have bring that horse back in the racing circuit?? That trainer was also the owner of that horse. I know there are horses that still race at that age and horses have a pretty long life span. Yet, given the fact it has been 7 yrs since that was entered the track, it just seems weird to me to bring that horse back. Is there a "proper" age to retire a horse? Just a thought.....

hey mr g n' t... could you tell me the race he was in? I've seen stuff like that on occasion but that might be the most extreme example.. guessing a small track

[str]

yeah I think you were outdone with team names...too funny...remember whenever I saw a picture of Richard in the form it seemed he was always wearing the brimmed hat.. knew he was a great trainer but of course there was no internet to look things up.. saw his wiki page and he has quite the resume definitely hall of fame worthy.. trying to think of the one owner I always associated with him but can't remember it.. if I heard it sure i would know..bet that you know the answer to that... sure the war stories he told you are something else but understand that's private stuff.. cool pic and thanks for posting it.. finally see the face behind "str"

Sally Gibson owned Caesars Wish. But you are probably thinking of the Meyerhof family. They were with Bud Delp and owned Spectacular Bid but after That they owned Concern and Broad Brush with Dickie.

[JBEX]

Sally Gibson owned Caesars Wish. But you are probably thinking of the Meyerhof family. They were with Bud Delp and owned Spectacular Bid but after That they owned Concern and Broad Brush with Dickie.

meyerhof ..that's who I was trying to remember..thanks.. two nice horses you mentioned there.. father and son and both deep closers if memory serves correct

[str]

I am glad that I am not the only one that feels that way. As it turned out, that horse was scratched, I don't know if it was an early scratch or at late scratch. Anyways, I feel the same way and I am glad that he did not get to run. Also, thanks for sharing your stories and I can totally see that some race horse would want to be near the racing environment. And the way you have treated them is simply first class.

I do have a faint memory of Michael Hunter. Not as vividly as you have, I think he was racing in the mid 90's in Southern California. For some reason, when you mentioned him, Chris Antley's name popped into my head as well. Other than that, I don't remember much about him. Nonetheless, it was a good story and thanks for sharing.

"I do have a faint memory of Michael Hunter. Not as vividly as you have, I think he was racing in the mid 90's in Southern California".

Yep. That was him.

" For some reason, when you mentioned him, Chris Antley's name popped into my head as well."

Oh my. Chris. Yeah. He was not a close friend but I knew him, rode him, saw him everyday and said good morning. Hammy Smith mentored him. What a fine , fine rider he was. His demons were simply too much. But such a good natured, well meant young man. His talent was evident. Such a sad outcome. Oh for what could have been.
I saw plenty of that at the track. The wasted potential was evident on the backside.
Chris's story came out. But for many others, the story was never told. Chris , too me, represents not only himself but all those souls who nobody ever heard of. There were more than you could imagine.

But enough of that sadness. Onward and upward.

Take care Mr. G and T.

Always a pleasure to hear from you sir.

[mrginandtonic]

hey mr g n' t... could you tell me the race he was in? I've seen stuff like that on occasion but that might be the most extreme example.. guessing a small track

It was Race 10 at Lone Star Park yesterday, 11- Dixieland Rebel. I was so surprised when I saw that yesterday.....

[JBEX]

It was Race 10 at Lone Star Park yesterday, 11- Dixieland Rebel. I was so surprised when I saw that yesterday.....

thanks mr g n t... would have liked to take a look for the hell of it but never got around to it

[Pmaynard19]

Sure. No problem.

Rather than worry about each track, here is a run down off the top of my head of various conditions. There are a ton of them so let's just scratch the surface.

Maidens:
The lower the claiming price, the cheaper the race.

MSW Maiden special Weight. No claim price. This category is typically anywhere from 5-6 to 10-12 lengths better than the highest claiming price offered at that particular track. ( Very rule of thumb, but you get my drift).

Claiming:

NW/2 lifetime. Simply put, they have only broken their maiden. Again, the cheaper the price, the cheaper the horse.

NW/3 lifetime. Same as above.

NW/2 6months. ( or less). Careful here. A MUCH better horse than others can be in here. Important to review each horse carefully.

NW/ year. Condition says a lot. Just as the condition above, if the horse is dropping from open claiming into one of these NW races and the rest of the field is already trying to win this and can't, the drop in is probably the favorite and at least several lengths better going in. That doesn't mean they win. Current condition , race set up, etc. can still get them beat but they are the horse to beat in most cases.

Open claiming . Usually a solid group of horses.

Allowance:

NW/2 Weakest of allowance races.

NW/3 next step up the ladder.

a other than. Usually has a chance to be at least several lengths tougher because open claimers can be eligible. Just have to check.

2 other than. Same thing but next step up.

3other than. This is what separates ok horses from good horses . There are many a 2 other than that tried and never could win a 3 other than. It is starting to get tough now.

4 other than. Tougher still.

NW in a year, or money allowance. These are VERY tricky for a novice trying to learn. Remember, a horse could have won a Breeders cup race last year, took the winter off, and this is where they land to start the new year. This condition can be murder. Be careful.

When in doubt, look at the purse for these races relative to other purses at the same track. As the races get tougher, the idea iss to make the purses higher. Don't get confused with state bred purses. They can be higher but typically a state bred restricted race will be a weaker race than a non state bred race of equal price or condition. Depending where, 3-5 lengths or even 6-8 lengths. Again, depends where. You will figure it out. Let the results over time tell you how many lengths the difference is.

You can compare purses from track to track but again, that can sometimes confuse you, so go slowly with these types of races until you have seen more and have a better feel.

I know this thread is a monster to try and read through but I urge you to try and do so. You can skip the talk about jocks or people or whatever and focus on this type of stuff. I am sure that I have talked about this stuff before, probably a few years ago by now, but do check this whole mess of a thread out.

I think you will find certain posts that will REALLY help you understand why things happen that you see when watching a race. Write down the post number of the ones that you will want to reread of reference.

Everything happens out there for a reason and understanding WHY something happened puts you well above many playing the same game.

Feel free to follow up or ask anything but do try and read the prior stuff. It will answer questions that you have not gotten to yet but will soon enough.

I love your passion to learn.

Hang on to that.

It will serve you well in this game.

Don't lose much money learning but do have fun with it.

Work hard and it will pay off.

And ask away as you go.

But please try and read through this mess.

I think you will be glad you did.

Man oh Man. This helps so much. Great info. Thanks for sharing str.

[Pmaynard19]

A handicapping tool that I have always used in betting or claiming horses is when I see a horse run in what I have always called an " accordion race". That is a race where somewhere in the middle calls on the chart or past performance a horse will make up lengths but fall back in running order or pass horses and move up from 7th to 4th but actually drop back in lengths from the leader. If this happens and the leader is drawing away from all others, that is excusable because it is happening to everyone. But when the leader is not really moving away from all others or is starting to quit and it happens , it is like the race is shrinking in lengths of difference but the horses gaining in lengths are not doing anything to make that happen, it is just happening. Either of those scenarios gives handicappers the illusion that the horse is moving forward when indeed they are not. Horses like that get a false value placed on them. And further, when it happens and most of the field does this, the few that actually made up lengths in the call split and passed horses while doing so DO NOT get the full credit deserved by most. This has been a huge positive for me while picking and choosing how good a horse might be for a long time.
( Hope that makes sense.) This is what happened in this years Derby. Traffic or trouble can absolutely cause this sometimes so it is important to check for that but rarely will traffic affect the whole field. If you look at the PP's of all the Derby runners you will see what I am talking about. With that said and not going into a full length analysis, I see that Master of Hounds did not lose lengths between call 3 and 4. I also see that Animal Kingdom did not.They both made up 1/2 to 1 1/4 lengths respectively. Many others lost 3-4 lengths between these calls.( Nehro lost 1/2 a length).That alone leads me straight towards those two. The leader , Shackleford, opened up 1/2 a length during that call. This means that Master of Hounds was staying even with Shackleford and Animal Kingdom was 3/4 of one length superior within that call.
From my previous post , more than any of the other triple crown races, pedigree bites more horses in the ass in the Belmont than any of the other races. Because Nehro and Shackleford are so weak in the stamina department, there is no way I would ever select either of those horses.They could win, but all logic says no and that is good enough for me.
I am a big "pace makes the race" guy. The reason for that is that it does. Simple.
As I put the race together it seems to me that if Prime Cut wants the early lead , it is right there for him.And if allowed, he can steal this race. Shackleford looks like he will get a perfect stalking position on the outside very similar to his position in the Preakness or , if Prime Cut does not want the lead and no other horse tries to change form drastically and gun for it, the pace should be quite slow early and suit a front runner or a horse with a stalking 5-6 length off the lead position. I would say that the race looks like it is taylor made for Shackleford to win. It has the potential to set up perfectly for him. I think it will. I just cannot think that he will win, perfect trip or not , because of his pedigree. ( I love perfect trips and love finding horses that will get one but the Belmont distance wipes that away for me).
Master of Hounds has that Lemon Drop Kid angle working for him( bloodline angle) and I think that it is a very solid thought process within that angle. His trainer is one of the worlds finest.
I have a huge rooting interest in Animal Kingdom because of Graham and Anita Motion. I have stated that I knew those two when they first started out together and two nicer, classier, honest and hard working a couple along with there assistant Adrian , one could never find. I sure hope they win!
So my exacta will be a Animal Kingdom and Master of Hounds box with enough on Animal Kingdom on top of Master of Hounds so the payouts are the same( 3.00 or 4.00 with AK on top, 2.00 with MOH on top, something like that). I do think either horse can win. Might also stick Prime Cut in there as well.
Best of Luck everyone!

More great info str. I struggle reading the call splits and putting the image in my head but I am getting a little better. I have been reading the PP's call splits and trying to match what I see in my mind to the actual replay video when possible. Is this a good idea do you think or should I try something else with my time. I do see where it could be easy to get caught up in the leader moving away and for me not to realize that its really not moving away but the field is slowing. Man I have a lot to learn but I am loving it. Thanks again.

[Pmaynard19]

Forgive me if this is in the thread somewhere but I was wondering if I could get some info on Run Styles as it relates to Brisnet PP's..

My question is this, On Brisnet running styles are listed as E, E/P,P,S and N/A. I often hear terms like Stalker, Stretch runners and etc. I guess I'm having trouble putting the 2 together to find what is what. So is an E/P considered a stalker or Stretch runner...Maybe I just have to look deeper in the PP's at the call splits.

[StackinGreen]

Those abbreviations are shorthand versions of what you can figure out on your own by looking at a horses running style and fractional times. Your "maybe" is correct.

While running on the lead can be a death trap, handicapping determines whether a front runner (no traffic) will "get loose" or "walk the dog" ... or alternatively if they will set up the race for the deep closers. "Pace makes the race" is a simple concept that gets complex as you look more and more into it, and it is something that at least 50% of the people at the track don't have a good handle on.

[mrginandtonic]

Hi Sir STR, something came to mind as I was looking at the form for tomorrow. Why is it that once a well known and well established trainer, such as Mr Lukas and Mr Zito, they are now wining at such low percentage?? The horses that they trained are still expensive yearlings. Another one would be Mr Jack can Berg, but he seemed to be doing better now that he moved out of the Southern California circuit. Is it the way they train??