Horse Racing questions and answers

[justafish]

Need help calculating odds into $.

A horse bet to place who is 8/1 ... How do you calculate how much you will win.

And Cc who is 3/5.. Can I just turn it into a decimal and divide amount bet to see amount to be won ??

Also some different bet types explained would be appreciated. ( all of them I possible)

[str]

Need help calculating odds into $.

A horse bet to place who is 8/1 ... How do you calculate how much you will win.

And Cc who is 3/5.. Can I just turn it into a decimal and divide amount bet to see amount to be won ??

Also some different bet types explained would be appreciated. ( all of them I possible)

Win = 1st only

Place = 1st or 2nd

Show= 1st, 2nd or 3rd

No way of knowing the payouts on place or show for any horses until the race is over.

The pool is split up and it depends how many tickets are alive on the horses that finished in the money.

3-5 means bet 5 and get back 8. The 5 you bet and 3 more. So it means a 3.20 payout for a 2.00 ticket.

Do remember, these odds will change before they are final odds.

These are approx. odds or odds as of now.

In the U.S.A. the odds will change until betting is closed when the horses are in the gate.

Other bets will flash on the TV monitor as the horses are saddled and up until post time.

If you are new to this, be careful. Try and follow some earlier races to get familiar with the betting odds.

Best of luck.

[justafish]

Thanks

[brooks85]

I have a question about california chrome, don't know much about horse racing but been betting him. I've heard about the length of the race and how he might not be able to handle it. Has california chrome ran other long races before, anything close to this 1.5 miles?

I would think he has but the way everyone is talking like he has never ran a long race before but I have no idea.

Or I guess really my question is, what is a good site to see history of the horses and their races, how much they won by etc?

[str]

I have a question about california chrome, don't know much about horse racing but been betting him. I've heard about the length of the race and how he might not be able to handle it. Has california chrome ran other long races before, anything close to this 1.5 miles?

I would think he has but the way everyone is talking like he has never ran a long race before but I have no idea.

Or I guess really my question is, what is a good site to see history of the horses and their races, how much they won by etc?

The Derby was 1 1/4 miles and the Preakness was 1 3/16's miles. It would seem like another 1/4 of a mile might not be that big a deal but in horse racing it is HUGE. Believe it or not but each 1/8th of a mile difference and even 1/16th mile difference is a big big difference for most horses. Especially those pushing the envelope on getting the distances.
The distance is very uncommon these days where 30-40 years ago it was not. Breeding with a great emphasis on speed in the U.S.A. has been the theme now for a few decades. Back in the 70's, there was plenty of stamina to be found in the breeding shed. Lately, Belmont winners can't get the proper amount of mares and price point to stay in the States. Several have had to move to Europe to stand at stud because of a lack of interest here.

None of the horses have run this distance before and most never will again. That is the same every year as no 3 year old races are offered at 1 1/2 miles in the U.S.A. until the Belmont. If they did offer them, not enough horses would enter to fill the race.

Goggle triple crown or Belmont stakes and subsets will take you wherever you like. Plenty of videos available as well once you search. Secretariat won by 31 lengths in 1973. Too call it stunning does not really do it justice. His move in the Preakness when he went from last to first around the 1st turn was stunning. His Belmont run topped that by a mile.

[brooks85]

o wow, very informative. Thanks for the history. I definitely get the obsession here with speed and why that has changed things. I would have naively thought these horses run longer races also but apparently not but it makes sense now. Definitely has me thinking about today's race now.

You got me intrigued on another question I've always wondered. What's the deal with the ages of the horse?

Are there or have there been any races that involved horses with different ages competing?

Is 3 considered when they are in there prime?

[Easy-Rider 66]

STR: I realize you do not posts many picks. But if you have handicapped the Belmont and can pass along a horse that you think has a shot to beat chrome, would appreciate it. If you have not looked it over or rather not say no problem. Have checked out Thorograph, Timeform, and Blood Horse analysis and still undecided. Thx.

[str]

STR: I realize you do not posts many picks. But if you have handicapped the Belmont and can pass along a horse that you think has a shot to beat chrome, would appreciate it. If you have not looked it over or rather not say no problem. Have checked out Thorograph, Timeform, and Blood Horse analysis and still undecided. Thx.

Will be happy too before I head off to Laurel to meet my friends for the day. Probably leave around 12 so will post something before I go.

[str]

o wow, very informative. Thanks for the history. I definitely get the obsession here with speed and why that has changed things. I would have naively thought these horses run longer races also but apparently not but it makes sense now. Definitely has me thinking about today's race now.

You got me intrigued on another question I've always wondered. What's the deal with the ages of the horse?

Are there or have there been any races that involved horses with different ages competing?

Is 3 considered when they are in there prime?

Horses start running as 2 year olds. I guess they might equate to JV or high school players as far as development is concerned.

3 year olds might equate to freshman in college early in the year but by September of their 3 year old year, they are typically college seniors or roughly 21 -23 years old.

4 year olds are more mature and typically stronger than 3 year olds until the 3 year olds catch up late in the year.

That's why they stay in there age groups.

3 year olds will be asked to run against olders around this time each year if they want too or they can try and stay in their age groups.

Once you hit 4 years old, it's 4 and up age wise from that point on.

That is just a rough idea of how it works . do understand that just like people, they develop at different stages. Some early, some late, and some just about like I said. They are all a bit unique , again, just like people.

Hope that helps.

[brooks85]

definitely helps and thanks for the info.

[str]

Watched the 1st three races.

Track seems very fair. That's great.

The main reason I do not post picks is because I would be afraid that someone might see them and bet more than they ordinarily might because they think I have some "info" or something. Would hate to see someone get burned. As long as they realize that I am just taking a swing like everyone else, it's fine. Just don't want anyone to get hurt , that's all.

As for what I see today, I will go through the majority of the races as the day goes on. I have not put any time into them other to glance and see what jumped off the page. One did.

In the last race, my man Tony D. is running In Trouble. No, I did not call him and ask him if he "likes him". Lol.
I would never do that anyway, but in this case, I do not need too. The horse was on the Derby trail but was playing catch up in March. T.D. gave him a chance to shine through but when he was not up too it, he did the right thing and put a stop to all the nonsense and let the horse breath a little. Today, he runs in the last race. It's too bad he will probably be the favorite or one of them but he would not be running him in there unless he was very ready. It is no easy race as several are solid competition. But... if he runs well, and I would assume he would, it might be worth a light investment in the triple, keying him over maybe the 1, who has really come to life lately after the claim, the 2, who is a nice horse, and the 8 who can obviously run.

Won't pay that much but a 1.00 key triple ticket is only 6 bucks . It gives me a chance to root for one of my best friends in life and could pay 50 bucks per 1.00 bet. Though I don't like playing favorites, I will make a rare exception in this case. What the hell.

As for the Belmont, I will use CC underneath in triples but still have a chance if he runs out for a bomb.

I will probably go with Wicked Strong as a key , so 9/1,2,4,8. And a 9/1,4,11. Might also toss the 1 on top. Mike has made some very valid points about him and sure don't want to steal his thunder but trying to spot overlays or horses with "hidden" form is always been the way I liked to handicap. The one horse has plenty of that.

I usually split bets with one guy of the group I meet up with each year and we put up about 200-300 each for the day and just pick away. Last year was the hidden form charm when Palice Malice won and Incognito got up for 4th. The super was a bomb. It's races like those that pay for a lot of mistakes.

Off to the track. Will try and check the forum from my phone .

Good luck everyone.

[Easy-Rider 66]

^Thx Str. Probably will go with Medal Count as you, Mike,Jbex, and Thorograph thinks he has a good shot. Wicked Strong will be less odds so taking longer of the two(Not betting much). Good Luck at the track today.

[mrginandtonic]

Sir STR, did you see the photo that was posted on Hart's thread by Slim and I read about that on DRF. Could that slight injury explain his loss today?? I know if some one step on me and I was bleeding, I probably could run to my 100%.

[str]

Sir STR, did you see the photo that was posted on Hart's thread by Slim and I read about that on DRF. Could that slight injury explain his loss today?? I know if some one step on me and I was bleeding, I probably could run to my 100%.

Wow. Barbara is the greatest! Without a doubt the best photographer in horse racing. Because she is a horse woman, she knows what to look for.

So, let's talk about this picture and something in it that I have not heard anyone talk about yet and of course, the owners rant that was a reporters dream.

Picture:

The grabbed 1/4 has a skin flap attached to it. That's a good thing , and most do, but without seeing inside that flap I can't know positively how deep it is. That said, it happened at the gate probably, most do, and I would venture to guess that about 5 in a hundred of that severity , from what little I can see, would effect the horse during the race.
Feet bleed a lot when horses do this, and he ran and galloped over two miles and that's all the blood there is? I would rate it on a 1-10 scale, 10 being worst about a 3 or maybe 4. I doubt it had anything to do with the outcome of the race. But that is not the most significant thing in that picture.

For any doubter's out there, you know when you slice the end of your finger or toe a little? What's the 1st thing we all say? We say, " man, that's going to be sore as hell in a couple of days". Not, oh man this is real sore already. Now, do it in a game you are playing and the adrenaline and the moment makes it so you don't even feel it, or so slightly that you immediately go back to all that you are in the midst of, which in this case is running a race. So trust me on this one, it was not a factor in the outcome in all likelihood.

Take a look at the back of CC's ankle. You see the friction burn behind it? THAT is the story folks. He ran down up front ! That is huge in that he had not done so before. That tells you that the horse in all probability was not totally comfortable and fluid in his stride and was slightly compensating, something that we have not seen before. Horses have a natural callus that they are born with to help protect that area. He burned that off and then the hair around and the skin. Don't get me wrong, not a broken friggin leg, but just something that made him not quite perfect. And in a race like this, not quite perfect is a big deal. Probably so subtle that the trainer, exercise rider, etc. could not see it. Or if they did and were aware of it, it's probably under the catagory of what we would call, a slight pinch or muscle ailment that is treatable and not the least bit life threatening. Remember, these are athletes that need to be treated for minor aches and pains during their "season", so to speak. You don't not run for a minor ache and pain, you work on it and as long as it responds, you continue.
Art Sherman will not be worried about the grabbed 1/4 but he will be very concerned with the running down. This picture also allows you all to see exactly why bandages are put on behind and up front. Those bandages they run in help prevent those friction burns. Did the running down get him beat? No. Did what caused him to run down get him beat? Maybe to probably, but we don't yet know what that is so let's see what is revealed in the next few days. Sometimes, it's just the wear and tear of the 3 races in 5 weeks.
Now sometimes it is not a slightly different gate that causes these friction burns but in this case, with the angle of his pastern( from the foot to the ankle), it is not a conformation flaw, it's something else. Very probably something physical but again, let's see. A best guess is that he is probably pinching in his left hind area as about 80% of the time, if you run down in the front, look at the opposite hind area and you will usually find the problem. Probably a muscle soreness from running but we will see. If so, a very common ailment that is treatable . And he won't have to run 3 times in 5 weeks again either. That too, will help.

As for the ride, I think he did just fine. No he was not able to get outside, so it might not have been perfect, but it was pretty close to perfect. The rider had plenty of chances to do something stupid and he did not. He nothing wrong IMO. Just came up a little empty.

The owner:

He made a fool of himself. I have heard there is a "ground swell" of support for his argument from every novice sports reporter in my area that would not know which end of a horse craps. The argument is soooo stupid, it really deserves no answer. Mr. Evans answered it appropriately. It was dumb, and ill advised. Why talk to that yahoo anyway. Let's talk to the trainer and get an ounce of real insight, not that knucklehead. Here's a guy that has DAP written on his silks for dumb ass partners and I want to hear what he says, and people take it seriously? Really? Unreal.

Enough, no, make that too much, already said about that owners rant. Show some class for Christ's sake. It's easy to talk when you win. And the game is MUCH bigger than you and whatever fits YOUR agenda. Just get out !

[harthebar]

Hello str, dont know if you saw the pictures i posted...on the other forum , i got two passes to go into the paddock, for the met mile...it was super, i felt like you or a horse owner..i was able to walk right up to the horses......i was watching cc and from 25 minutes from post ,to just about riders up he was standing there having pictures taken...while the others were walking around...dont know.if that makes any difference..........but it was a thrill being in the paddock[ATTACH]69513[/ATTACH]

[harthebar]

[harthebar]

Trivia question who rode him in the canada race.........the only reason i knew that.....his agent spike and the rider i cant mention were good friends with the family.....and back in the hay day of acrc he used to spend nights over my grandfathers...house when they rode here


[ATTACH]69517[/ATTACH]

[harthebar]

[harthebar]

[ATTACH]69521[/ATTACH]

the champ

[sandyw123]

Str, I have a question about California Chrome's ride. Should he have been farther up to the front from the get go to have prevented getting boxed in? He could have been caught from behind very easily had he taken the lead. He just looked tired to me. There was actually a heated debate about that in the press box after the race. I was afraid it was going to come to blows, hope it didn't after the coverage from the booth stopped. One of the commentators was insisting that Victor Espinoza blew it, while Jerry Bailey tried to tell him that he probably did what was best. He said there was just as much of a risk of being caught from behind, that the horse just came up empty. Did you see that too? There was just so much emotion surrounding this race. Steve Coburn took it just a bit too far for sure. I can understand him being disappointed, but he needed to hold it together while on National television. It's almost like he didn't consider the real possibility that his horse might not win. Reality needs to set In before it comes crashing down. Even Tonalist's owner expressed a little anger when asked by a reporter how he felt about his horse not being selected for the Derby, in effect saying "You don't want to hear how I feel about that." Well at least in his case, we DIDN'T hear all about it. He might have been annoyed by hearing his horse and jockey cursed. A jockey should never have to sorry and hang his head after winning a race, yet that's what Joel Rosario did. It's sad that an atmosphere of anticipation and excitement can turn negative so quickly.

[str]

Trivia question who rode him in the canada race.........the only reason i knew that.....his agent spike and the rider i cant mention were good friends with the family.....and back in the hay day of acrc he used to spend nights over my grandfathers...house when they rode here


[ATTACH]69517[/ATTACH]

Eddie Maple.

A real fine rider back in the day.

Very nice pics.

Glad to hear you got into the paddock.

[str]

Str, I have a question about California Chrome's ride. Should he have been farther up to the front from the get go to have prevented getting boxed in? He could have been caught from behind very easily had he taken the lead. He just looked tired to me. There was actually a heated debate about that in the press box after the race. I was afraid it was going to come to blows, hope it didn't after the coverage from the booth stopped. One of the commentators was insisting that Victor Espinoza blew it, while Jerry Bailey tried to tell him that he probably did what was best. He said there was just as much of a risk of being caught from behind, that the horse just came up empty. Did you see that too? There was just so much emotion surrounding this race. Steve Coburn took it just a bit too far for sure. I can understand him being disappointed, but he needed to hold it together while on National television. It's almost like he didn't consider the real possibility that his horse might not win. Reality needs to set In before it comes crashing down. Even Tonalist's owner expressed a little anger when asked by a reporter how he felt about his horse not being selected for the Derby, in effect saying "You don't want to hear how I feel about that." Well at least in his case, we DIDN'T hear all about it. He might have been annoyed by hearing his horse and jockey cursed. A jockey should never have to sorry and hang his head after winning a race, yet that's what Joel Rosario did. It's sad that an atmosphere of anticipation and excitement can turn negative so quickly.

I don't know about that. As you might have seen, I wrote before the race that the jock would have about 20 sec. to make his decisions. He decided to sit just off. He said afterwards that he did not feel very early on like he had the same amount of horse under him as in the last two races. If that was really the case, and I have to think it was, than he did exactly what he had to do, which was wait and let's see where he is in 30 more seconds.

I saw Beyer's knock on the ride but did not hear the TV stuff. But one thing that a lot of people, even smug reporters that have followed the game for decades, is that these horses are not push button. Sometimes, they are just not under you as strongly as they have been previously. Like a car you drive that hesitates when you step on the gas. It's just not there. When it's not there, many a fine jock have said that the best thing that you can do is just sit still and bide your time and hope it is there later in the race. Yes, he got some dirt in his face for the 1st time in a long time. Yes, his right eye was not clean as I am sure the jock was wanting, but... it was not terrible because he was not in there tight at all. When asked to ease out, he did and around the far turn he was in a perfect position, the exact same position he was in during the previous 2 races. So, he runs very hard and just gets out kicked the last 3/16th's. Too me, there is no shame in that. The distance, trip, 3 races in 5 weeks, whatever was pinching him to make him run down up front, 4 different surfaces in 3 months, not being in his stall he is most comfortable in for the last 6 weeks all came into play. I mean, if you were not in your bed at home for 6 weeks and changing beds and motels, would you be dead perfect after working harder than you have ever worked in your life after all that? Of course not. But all this gets lost in the after thought. Very few are talking about this stuff. But this stuff is the reality of what a horse has to go through to try and win the Triple Crown.
Belmont trained horses actually have a decided edge if they are going for a triple crown because they get to have a home game for the 3rd leg, not 3 away games. I never hear any of this talked about. And it's too bad, because THAT is what is important.

TV and the DRF need more Jerry Bailey, Richard Migliore , Nick Zito or guys that have lived it and not some of these nit wits that seem to show up, either on TV or in the DRF.

The other thing is, if CC moves early to get a neck in front, then he has the 1st split in 23 and change not 24 right. Once he is up in that spot he must maintain it so horses would have been taking there shots at him one by one all the way around the track. If the jock had done that, Beyer would have crucified him for moving too early and the fractions would have been quicker all through the race IMO. So, unless he won, it seems he was going to be blamed somehow for something.

Sometimes, you just get beat. All the stuff I mentioned I am sure, had plenty to do with it, but he just got beat. Not 10 lengths, just 2 lengths. With all I said above, too me, that's what happened.

I wrote somewhere in this forum in another thread how if a rider beat a horse for a triple crown , they would almost apologize for it. That happens all the time. People in the game want a hero just like the public, but they also want to win. And they get paid to win and ride as hard as possible for the betting dollars wagered on them. Several times, I have felt pretty bad after a horse was denied a triple crown but I have to admit, not this time. I am not sure exactly why but one reason is that I never got the feeling that this horse was nearly as special as some that have failed. Certainly not horses like Bid, but I mean, not as special as plenty of others as well. I just never got that feeling. It felt too me that CC was an athletic horse with a push button motor in a down year for quality. That quality could change. What I mean is quality as of the 1st week in May until now. I might be wrong, but that's what I leave the triple crown races feeling . This time when the jock pressed the button on the push button horse, there was not the same response.

Time will tell if CC is a great champion or not. I just never got the feeling that he was or is. A really really nice horse, but a champion type? I just don't feel it.

[JBEX]

Hey str.. Like your impression on this scenario.. 5yo horse (not gelded) first time starter today at prx.. Cost 110k at Kee fall yearling and is up for sale for 25k.. This wouldn't bother me off the top of my head as I figure that's why he's starting so late. Top trainer and jock at the track. Trainer 8/30 firsters.. 8 very solid nicely spaced works. I figure she's probably just being realistic considering the late debut. I think horse is live but like to hear what you think.. Breaking from the rail on the sloppy track today probably won't help matters

[str]

Hey str.. Like your impression on this scenario.. 5yo horse (not gelded) first time starter today at prx.. Cost 110k at Kee fall yearling and is up for sale for 25k.. This wouldn't bother me off the top of my head as I figure that's why he's starting so late. Top trainer and jock at the track. Trainer 8/30 firsters.. 8 very solid nicely spaced works. I figure she's probably just being realistic considering the late debut. I think horse is live but like to hear what you think.. Breaking from the rail on the sloppy track today probably won't help matters

A 5 year old means it lost a ton of value with injuries not being able to run as a 3 year old and not against older's.

Plenty of problems no doubt but probably OK now, just 5 and needs to earn whatever it can. So, yes, probably alive but the mud and the one hole is very tricky. Most firsters that break from the one hole break a step slow. If so, and the mud flies back, that is tough also.
At a decent price , maybe. At a shorter price, no way. Don't know that I would play hard against unless you were chasing a nice price.

[JBEX]

A 5 year old means it lost a ton of value with injuries not being able to run as a 3 year old and not against older's.

Plenty of problems no doubt but probably OK now, just 5 and needs to earn whatever it can. So, yes, probably alive but the mud and the one hole is very tricky. Most firsters that break from the one hole break a step slow. If so, and the mud flies back, that is tough also.
At a decent price , maybe. At a shorter price, no way. Don't know that I would play hard against unless you were chasing a nice price.

He was a late scratch today.. Prefer that anyway as rather see his make his debut under
better circumstances (post, track condition). Put him in my stable and we'll see when he reappears.
Thanks again

[str]

He was a late scratch today.. Prefer that anyway as rather see his make his debut under
better circumstances (post, track condition). Put him in my stable and we'll see when he reappears.
Thanks again

Was in a hurry and did not know when the race was. Forgot to ask if he might be scratched. Gotta have a problem that required at least one surgery and might have a tendon or suspensory problem ( probably fronts on when he runs if that is the case ) and those types are at higher risk on muddy tracks.

The scratch makes sense but not gelding him and getting some of the weight off he will carry because he is not gelded ( no , not his nuts, Lol ) does not make sense. Like when a person has bad knees or hips and they are over weight, 1st thing they tell you to do is lose some weight. Much easier for a gelding to lose weight than a colt or in this case, a horse.

[str]

He was a late scratch today.. Prefer that anyway as rather see his make his debut under
better circumstances (post, track condition). Put him in my stable and we'll see when he reappears.
Thanks again

Small to medium size field with an outside post ( the box would be great) is preferable going short first time.

[JBEX]

Small to medium size field with an outside post ( the box would be great) is preferable going short first time.

the box?

[mrginandtonic]

Wow. Barbara is the greatest! Without a doubt the best photographer in horse racing. Because she is a horse woman, she knows what to look for.

So, let's talk about this picture and something in it that I have not heard anyone talk about yet and of course, the owners rant that was a reporters dream.

Picture:

The grabbed 1/4 has a skin flap attached to it. That's a good thing , and most do, but without seeing inside that flap I can't know positively how deep it is. That said, it happened at the gate probably, most do, and I would venture to guess that about 5 in a hundred of that severity , from what little I can see, would effect the horse during the race.
Feet bleed a lot when horses do this, and he ran and galloped over two miles and that's all the blood there is? I would rate it on a 1-10 scale, 10 being worst about a 3 or maybe 4. I doubt it had anything to do with the outcome of the race. But that is not the most significant thing in that picture.

For any doubter's out there, you know when you slice the end of your finger or toe a little? What's the 1st thing we all say? We say, " man, that's going to be sore as hell in a couple of days". Not, oh man this is real sore already. Now, do it in a game you are playing and the adrenaline and the moment makes it so you don't even feel it, or so slightly that you immediately go back to all that you are in the midst of, which in this case is running a race. So trust me on this one, it was not a factor in the outcome in all likelihood.

Take a look at the back of CC's ankle. You see the friction burn behind it? THAT is the story folks. He ran down up front ! That is huge in that he had not done so before. That tells you that the horse in all probability was not totally comfortable and fluid in his stride and was slightly compensating, something that we have not seen before. Horses have a natural callus that they are born with to help protect that area. He burned that off and then the hair around and the skin. Don't get me wrong, not a broken friggin leg, but just something that made him not quite perfect. And in a race like this, not quite perfect is a big deal. Probably so subtle that the trainer, exercise rider, etc. could not see it. Or if they did and were aware of it, it's probably under the catagory of what we would call, a slight pinch or muscle ailment that is treatable and not the least bit life threatening. Remember, these are athletes that need to be treated for minor aches and pains during their "season", so to speak. You don't not run for a minor ache and pain, you work on it and as long as it responds, you continue.
Art Sherman will not be worried about the grabbed 1/4 but he will be very concerned with the running down. This picture also allows you all to see exactly why bandages are put on behind and up front. Those bandages they run in help prevent those friction burns. Did the running down get him beat? No. Did what caused him to run down get him beat? Maybe to probably, but we don't yet know what that is so let's see what is revealed in the next few days. Sometimes, it's just the wear and tear of the 3 races in 5 weeks.
Now sometimes it is not a slightly different gate that causes these friction burns but in this case, with the angle of his pastern( from the foot to the ankle), it is not a conformation flaw, it's something else. Very probably something physical but again, let's see. A best guess is that he is probably pinching in his left hind area as about 80% of the time, if you run down in the front, look at the opposite hind area and you will usually find the problem. Probably a muscle soreness from running but we will see. If so, a very common ailment that is treatable . And he won't have to run 3 times in 5 weeks again either. That too, will help.

As for the ride, I think he did just fine. No he was not able to get outside, so it might not have been perfect, but it was pretty close to perfect. The rider had plenty of chances to do something stupid and he did not. He nothing wrong IMO. Just came up a little empty.

The owner:

He made a fool of himself. I have heard there is a "ground swell" of support for his argument from every novice sports reporter in my area that would not know which end of a horse craps. The argument is soooo stupid, it really deserves no answer. Mr. Evans answered it appropriately. It was dumb, and ill advised. Why talk to that yahoo anyway. Let's talk to the trainer and get an ounce of real insight, not that knucklehead. Here's a guy that has DAP written on his silks for dumb ass partners and I want to hear what he says, and people take it seriously? Really? Unreal.

Enough, no, make that too much, already said about that owners rant. Show some class for Christ's sake. It's easy to talk when you win. And the game is MUCH bigger than you and whatever fits YOUR agenda. Just get out !

Thank you very much for your insight, STR.

[erinseyes]

Hey STR, I am trying to understand what you are seeing in the picture of CCs leg. I have an OTTB and obviously he has never been under the strain of racing since I've had him and am not familiar with the friction that creates, plus my horse is always fully booted. Are you talking about the back of the pastern above the heel where it is just pink? Is the friction just from constant over reaching? And while I am not as great as others at spotting imperfections in a stride I have always felt CC is not as comfortable or symmetrical (not sure if I'm phrasing that right) but it reminds me of horses I have ridden that are really choppy with strides that feel small even though they're good sized, and it's not because of straight pasterns or something I can easily see. Hope that makes sense. Btw I love your posts and have read every one, thank you for your insight throughout this thread. it is invaluable.

[sandyw123]

I don't know about that. As you might have seen, I wrote before the race that the jock would have about 20 sec. to make his decisions. He decided to sit just off. He said afterwards that he did not feel very early on like he had the same amount of horse under him as in the last two races. If that was really the case, and I have to think it was, than he did exactly what he had to do, which was wait and let's see where he is in 30 more seconds.

I saw Beyer's knock on the ride but did not hear the TV stuff. But one thing that a lot of people, even smug reporters that have followed the game for decades, is that these horses are not push button. Sometimes, they are just not under you as strongly as they have been previously. Like a car you drive that hesitates when you step on the gas. It's just not there. When it's not there, many a fine jock have said that the best thing that you can do is just sit still and bide your time and hope it is there later in the race. Yes, he got some dirt in his face for the 1st time in a long time. Yes, his right eye was not clean as I am sure the jock was wanting, but... it was not terrible because he was not in there tight at all. When asked to ease out, he did and around the far turn he was in a perfect position, the exact same position he was in during the previous 2 races. So, he runs very hard and just gets out kicked the last 3/16th's. Too me, there is no shame in that. The distance, trip, 3 races in 5 weeks, whatever was pinching him to make him run down up front, 4 different surfaces in 3 months, not being in his stall he is most comfortable in for the last 6 weeks all came into play. I mean, if you were not in your bed at home for 6 weeks and changing beds and motels, would you be dead perfect after working harder than you have ever worked in your life after all that? Of course not. But all this gets lost in the after thought. Very few are talking about this stuff. But this stuff is the reality of what a horse has to go through to try and win the Triple Crown.
Belmont trained horses actually have a decided edge if they are going for a triple crown because they get to have a home game for the 3rd leg, not 3 away games. I never hear any of this talked about. And it's too bad, because THAT is what is important.

TV and the DRF need more Jerry Bailey, Richard Migliore , Nick Zito or guys that have lived it and not some of these nit wits that seem to show up, either on TV or in the DRF.

The other thing is, if CC moves early to get a neck in front, then he has the 1st split in 23 and change not 24 right. Once he is up in that spot he must maintain it so horses would have been taking there shots at him one by one all the way around the track. If the jock had done that, Beyer would have crucified him for moving too early and the fractions would have been quicker all through the race IMO. So, unless he won, it seems he was going to be blamed somehow for something.

Sometimes, you just get beat. All the stuff I mentioned I am sure, had plenty to do with it, but he just got beat. Not 10 lengths, just 2 lengths. With all I said above, too me, that's what happened.

I wrote somewhere in this forum in another thread how if a rider beat a horse for a triple crown , they would almost apologize for it. That happens all the time. People in the game want a hero just like the public, but they also want to win. And they get paid to win and ride as hard as possible for the betting dollars wagered on them. Several times, I have felt pretty bad after a horse was denied a triple crown but I have to admit, not this time. I am not sure exactly why but one reason is that I never got the feeling that this horse was nearly as special as some that have failed. Certainly not horses like Bid, but I mean, not as special as plenty of others as well. I just never got that feeling. It felt too me that CC was an athletic horse with a push button motor in a down year for quality. That quality could change. What I mean is quality as of the 1st week in May until now. I might be wrong, but that's what I leave the triple crown races feeling . This time when the jock pressed the button on the push button horse, there was not the same response.

Time will tell if CC is a great champion or not. I just never got the feeling that he was or is. A really really nice horse, but a champion type? I just don't feel it.

I feel that California Chrome is a very good horse, but as for being a champion I had my doubts like you. It was hard to see him getting the mile and a half, but I agree that he did well for a horse that was probably fatigued. We don't know for sure that he wouldn't have won the race if he hadn't been tired. We'll never know. He just looked to me like a horse going through the motions, with no real energy in the post parade. On the other hand I thought Tonalist and Commissioner both looked sharp and edgy, like they couldn't wait to get out on the track. That was a great neck and neck duel down the stretch between those two horses!

[str]

the box?

Sorry Man. I have used this term off and on but it's explanation is waaay back in this thread.

The box is the outside post going one turn when the outside horse has speed and wants to control the pace. If the horse breaks well, and gains a 1/2 or 3/4 or even a length advantage, that horse basically is in total control of every horse in the race. Why? Because as they run down the backside, the outside speed horse does not just cut over to get to the rail. It slowly leans towards the inside and if you watch the head on when this happens, one by one, every horse that has either speed or position speed ( closers will take back anyway), will all start to check out of the hole as they approach the turn or have to fully commit to getting to the lead before the turn, thus burning energy before they might have wanted to. Why? Because when they all switch to there left lead, at 3-4 feet per horse, times the , let's say 4 horses still up fairly close, between 12 and 16 feet of space between those horses will vanish and if they don't check out, they will clip heels over one another and possibly fall. So if used correctly by the outside rider, the outside speed has total control of the race until about the 3/8ths pole. The horse goes from 1 length in front to about 3 lengths in front and the rider has saved a lot of energy, while others have had to burn energy. As a result, it is a HUGE advantage if the rider uses it correctly, and most veteran rider's will. If they do not, and could, they have blown a golden opportunity .

So, the box, called that because you have a chance to box in the whole field, is the best draw in one turn races if the horse has speed.

Hope that makes sense.

[str]

Thank you very much for your insight, STR.

Anytime Mr. G and T.

[str]

Hey STR, I am trying to understand what you are seeing in the picture of CCs leg. I have an OTTB and obviously he has never been under the strain of racing since I've had him and am not familiar with the friction that creates, plus my horse is always fully booted. Are you talking about the back of the pastern above the heel where it is just pink? Is the friction just from constant over reaching? And while I am not as great as others at spotting imperfections in a stride I have always felt CC is not as comfortable or symmetrical (not sure if I'm phrasing that right) but it reminds me of horses I have ridden that are really choppy with strides that feel small even though they're good sized, and it's not because of straight pasterns or something I can easily see. Hope that makes sense. Btw I love your posts and have read every one, thank you for your insight throughout this thread. it is invaluable.

Wow. Great to here you have a retired race horse as a pet ! Mind if I ask where you got your horse, if it ran, who it's by and out of and if it's a colt, filly, color, etc.? Just in general terms.

The friction is created from running full speed on dirt tracks. Not sure about poly, it wasn't around when I trained. Horses do not "run down" , the term for the friction burn, on grass courses.
It is due to the flex in the pastern with high pressure from running full out, and the ankle flexing towards the dirt. It's like a rug burn or a raspberry you might get on your knee from sliding on a hard surface.

You are spot on with CC's stride. He typically gallops about 2 miles in a normal day. I saw him on TV galloping and the 1st mile he is choppy or crabby, meaning his strides are shorter and restricted. That is due to a soreness. That can be simple muscle soreness, which I highly suspect is the case with him and is quite common with horses in training. If you look at him from the side view, he is a bit weak in the muscle dept. in the hind end. His butt slopes off pretty good from it's peak. That lack of muscle could have what muscle there is working harder than it would with a fuller rump of muscle. It's just a conformation flaw he has. Just born that way.

When it is muscle, just like humans, the more you use it, the looser it will become. So it makes perfect sense that he is a bit stiff for the 1st mile and looks much more comfortable the 2nd mile, once he loosens up. There are plenty of therapeutic choices to use to help relieve this. Electrical pulsating blankets help a lot. Like a tenz unit for people with bad backs. No pain whatsoever when applying it. It usually puts the horse to sleep with the massage feel it gives off. Massages also work, depending on the horse and exact location of the soreness. There are drugs that are NOT pain killers or pain relievers like ESE that work well with race horses. Bigeloil and other liniments are sold at all tack shops. They can also help somewhat. So this sort of thing is prevalent with horses in training. As for your horse, probably very little of this is required. Your horse is not in training so the daily grind to get fit and stay fit does not exist.

The area of the run down is not the heel and pastern area. That pink in the pastern is just blood flow that you can see because he has a white leg and that skin is thinner than other colors are, so easy to see inside of. I am talking about the burn in the back of his ankle, a little bigger than a dime. That is a run down or friction burn. In his case, without ever touching this horse, I would bet is due to him being a little sore behind and shifting, ever so slightly, his weight to be as comfortable as he can. It's not at all a big deal, unless he would continue to run every 2 weeks for a few more months. Then, it would become a real big deal. But, that won't happen so he will be just fine down the road. It will be interesting to see if he runs back with "fronts on" though.
Being a bit pinchy behind is also a solid reason that could be why he breaks OK but not great. That too, is a common theme with hind end problems and let's face it, if you run hard and train hard, just like people, something almost has to be sore somewhere, sometimes.
Some of those choppy horses you speak of,could have bad feet or front end problems from previous injuries. Arthritis can set in to joints if there have been chips or fractures in the past. It really is a case by case reason, again, just like people.

Hope that helps and thanks for the kind words.

[str]

I feel that California Chrome is a very good horse, but as for being a champion I had my doubts like you. It was hard to see him getting the mile and a half, but I agree that he did well for a horse that was probably fatigued. We don't know for sure that he wouldn't have won the race if he hadn't been tired. We'll never know. He just looked to me like a horse going through the motions, with no real energy in the post parade. On the other hand I thought Tonalist and Commissioner both looked sharp and edgy, like they couldn't wait to get out on the track. That was a great neck and neck duel down the stretch between those two horses!

The only down side to going and watching on TV for me is that I can not see the post parade and body language of the horses. Wish I could but seeing old friends is a gift in itself, so I gladly trade off.