Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

Hi Str,

SAR R9 7/29. I had a playback on Tough Street 1A. Was a pretty full field of 16. Due to rain they took it off the turf and ended up with a field of 6. They loaded the 6 remaining horses backward. In other words, facing the 16 stall gate, the #1 was way out to the left versus what you expect to be the first stall on your right.

I bet the race counting on the #1 to be in the traditional stall. He ended up on the way outside of that awkward quick approaching first turn. I almost canceled $10 wps but was doing ok for the day so stuck with it. As I expected he ended up 4th or 5th about 3 or 4 lenghts back. I got lucky as he closed and ended up winning.

My question is ... Why the change of gate positioning. I'm not sure I've ever seen this before.

Thanks , and be well!!

Anytime there is an entry or multiple entries, the 1 and 1A, 2 and 2X or however many there are at the draw, they will likely have different post positions than the 1 and 2 post. The entries are there to let the handicapper know that if you bet one, you have both of them. But you should always look on the program below the morning line odds on the left hand side to see the pp#. That is how it will likely look. For instance the one horse could be the 1 post or 6 post and the 1A could be the 10 post, or any post. But not automatically the 2 post. If that was the case, trainers wanting the rail would always enter an entry, and scratch the outside horse, thus getting the rail. ( You have to watch us trainers every minute). Lol.

So if you see any entry, always check the post position ( pp#) which should be on the base of the 1 and 1A horses program line. Not at the bottom of the page, at the bottom of the 1 horses approximately 1" wide left to right line on the program. See if you can find that when looking and make it a habit with all races with an entry.
Follow up if needed Madison.

All the best sir.

[str]

If it did, that seems to me to be a case of the Stewards letting themselves off the hook. What was Angel of Empires jock supposed to do?

At this point all this is the Stewards mess. And only they, or their superiors, can clean it up.

Like I said yesterday, I really hope it can settle down somewhat before something bad happens to a jockey or a horse.

It's just gone a little too far IMO. Others too, apparently.

One more thing EZ. Look at my avatar. Should Larry Saumell have moved out to the 4 path and made that horse on the outside alter? Of course not. But... that was in the 80's and in Maryland. He would have come down in less than a minute back then, because the Stewards did not allow it. The fact that Saumell could have gone around again and that horse was not going to pass him would make no difference.

So it really comes down to this. If you are a parent and you set a curfew for you kid, and that kid is late, do you just allow it over and over?

And if so, over time, won't that kid abuse the privilege more and more? I know I would have.

So that's it in a nut shell. The Stews are the parents, the riders are the kids. Rules are rules unless they really aren't and honestly, can you blame the kid for pushing those rules or do you blame the parents for not enforcing them, which we know is not easy?

When you look at it that way, kind of easy to see isn't it?

[Easy-Rider 66]

OK STR get your drift. Thx again. Makes sense.

[str]

STR

Thank you for the greeting and the detailed analysis on this situation I really do appreciate it seeing in someones eyes like yours lol.

I too would be taking Forte down as it was truly unfair for Irad to be riding like that. Like what you said he is on the best horses since he is the "better" rider vs the rest of the field 99.99% of the time. But that doesn't mean he cannot follow the rules like the 0.01%. The rules are there for a reason and he like everyone else should follow it. I get it that the stewards luckily gave Irad a slap on the wrist for this one but like really? What is this proving to all the horseplayers who watch where Irad goes? You cannot expect to get away with this forever lol.

Just my 2 cents. I am no expert but I am a young horseplayer who wants to continue watch the sport he loves grow and not die because of stupid crap like Irad and everything else in the mix right now (Baffert/Small Fields/High Win % Favourites etc).

Your welcome Conley.

This sport is not dying like many say IMO. I have heard that since 1980. When I see pictures of the fans at Saratoga on a weekend, more are in their 30's-40's or younger than not it seems. Same thing at Delaware Park. I'm hopeful it is like that at Monmouth as well. I think and hope it will be just fine.

[JBEX]

hey str


you've probably covered this more than a few times..like one at elp today coming off a 44 day layoff but with no works .. +/- a week or 2 either way can gallops,jogs or a combo of both have them ready off this amount of time ?

[str]

hey str


you've probably covered this more than a few times..like one at elp today coming off a 44 day layoff but with no works .. +/- a week or 2 either way can gallops,jogs or a combo of both have them ready off this amount of time ?

Chances are, running at Ellis Park for those purses, the horse did work somewhere. If it was a lower tier track or a low tier trainer it might be different but I doubt it there. With horses shipping around for that Ellis meet, the horse could have been misidentified by the clockers and recorded as a different horse, worked at a non sanctioned farm on their training track or something like that. And if the horse actually did not work, the horse can go 15's for 3/4 of a mile and finish up through the lane in 13 and 13 for a total of 26 and not be caught by the clockers or just work too slowly to record it. That would be 3/8ths in 41 and I doubt they would record that.

Unless the trainer is a VERY low % trainer lifetime and same probably goes for the rider, I would just forget about it and go with what you see and like. A better rider that gets plenty of mounts there won't get on that horse without trusting the trainer and having been told why there are no works in all probability.

Also, I think a workout will probably be announced for the public but don't pay any attention to that either way. It's the old half in fifty or some junk like that probably.

As to CAN they be ready off that time off and no works, really depends on the horse, how fit it was and how it trains. There is body fitness and there is wind/breathing fitness. Both need to be kept up with between races but like I said, chances are the horse did more somewhere, sometime, than just gallop or jog.

[JBEX]

Chances are, running at Ellis Park for those purses, the horse did work somewhere. If it was a lower tier track or a low tier trainer it might be different but I doubt it there. With horses shipping around for that Ellis meet, the horse could have been misidentified by the clockers and recorded as a different horse, worked at a non sanctioned farm on their training track or something like that. And if the horse actually did not work, the horse can go 15's for 3/4 of a mile and finish up through the lane in 13 and 13 for a total of 26 and not be caught by the clockers or just work too slowly to record it. That would be 3/8ths in 41 and I doubt they would record that.

Unless the trainer is a VERY low % trainer lifetime and same probably goes for the rider, I would just forget about it and go with what you see and like. A better rider that gets plenty of mounts there won't get on that horse without trusting the trainer and having been told why there are no works in all probability.

Also, I think a workout will probably be announced for the public but don't pay any attention to that either way. It's the old half in fifty or some junk like that probably.

As to CAN they be ready off that time off and no works, really depends on the horse, how fit it was and how it trains. There is body fitness and there is wind/breathing fitness. Both need to be kept up with between races but like I said, chances are the horse did more somewhere, sometime, than just gallop or jog.

ok thanks str..based on the connections and activity prior to the layoff think it won't be a problem fitness wise ..it's a speed horse so maybe that's a hint that she doesn't need to drill and some conditioning is all that's needed

[Easy-Rider 66]

One more thing EZ. Look at my avatar. Should Larry Saumell have moved out to the 4 path and made that horse on the outside alter? Of course not. But... that was in the 80's and in Maryland. He would have come down in less than a minute back then, because the Stewards did not allow it. The fact that Saumell could have gone around again and that horse was not going to pass him would make no difference.

So it really comes down to this. If you are a parent and you set a curfew for you kid, and that kid is late, do you just allow it over and over?

And if so, over time, won't that kid abuse the privilege more and more? I know I would have.

So that's it in a nut shell. The Stews are the parents, the riders are the kids. Rules are rules unless they really aren't and honestly, can you blame the kid for pushing those rules or do you blame the parents for not enforcing them, which we know is not easy?

When you look at it that way, kind of easy to see isn't it?

FYI STR. The Ortiz brothers will serve careless riding suspensions from 8/9-8/11.

[str]

FYI STR. The Ortiz brothers will serve careless riding suspensions from 8/9-8/11.

Well, at some point the Stewards will start to feel the heat if they already have not. This is typically done by giving out suspensions but mainly through meeting the riders in the jocks room before the races start on whatever day it happens to talk it out and reset the bar.

To simply move the goal posts so to speak, would be unfair. Hopefully those talks have happened and maybe things will settle down. We shall see.

On a side note , did you notice that all the Churchill Downs bad press as subsided. And, all of the sudden I even caught myself yesterday saying how nice Ellis Park was. Lol. Mission accomplished for the share holders I guess.
Hopefully things go smooth when they start back up at Churchill.

Thanks EZ.

[Easy-Rider 66]

Well, at some point the Stewards will start to feel the heat if they already have not. This is typically done by giving out suspensions but mainly through meeting the riders in the jocks room before the races start on whatever day it happens to talk it out and reset the bar.

To simply move the goal posts so to speak, would be unfair. Hopefully those talks have happened and maybe things will settle down. We shall see.

On a side note , did you notice that all the Churchill Downs bad press as subsided. And, all of the sudden I even caught myself yesterday saying how nice Ellis Park was. Lol. Mission accomplished for the share holders I guess.
Hopefully things go smooth when they start back up at Churchill.

Thanks EZ.

THX STR. yeah CD instituting some new safety Protocols. Hope that helps avoid what we saw a couple of months ago.

[str]

One more thing EZ. Look at my avatar. Should Larry Saumell have moved out to the 4 path and made that horse on the outside alter? Of course not. But... that was in the 80's and in Maryland. He would have come down in less than a minute back then, because the Stewards did not allow it. The fact that Saumell could have gone around again and that horse was not going to pass him would make no difference.

So it really comes down to this. If you are a parent and you set a curfew for you kid, and that kid is late, do you just allow it over and over?

And if so, over time, won't that kid abuse the privilege more and more? I know I would have.

So that's it in a nut shell. The Stews are the parents, the riders are the kids. Rules are rules unless they really aren't and honestly, can you blame the kid for pushing those rules or do you blame the parents for not enforcing them, which we know is not easy?

When you look at it that way, kind of easy to see isn't it?

Here is a link to Jerry Bailey's quote towards the bottom of the article as to what I have been talking about with the Stewards massaging the rules and allowing things with their riding colony that other jurisdictions may not.

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/hof-rider-jerry-bailey-talks-jim-dandy-and-more-on-writers-room/

[mrginandtonic]

Sir STR, today's DRF Race of the Day is at SAR Race 9 The Glens Falls at 1 1/2 on turf. As a former trainer, I want to get your thoughts on the 6- Elegant Taste (ML 50-1). How do you handicap this horse?? Her highest Beyer is 58; this will be her first turf start and she has never gone beyond 1 1/16. Is this an automatic throw out?? If it is, then why would a trainer/owner even enter her in a G2 event?? She was claimed from her last race for $10k, trainer stats are horrible (only positive is that he had prior success at moving from dirt to turf). She has speed but there are other horses here that has speed. I just dont get why risk injury if she has like Zero chance even hit the board. Do they know something that we don't know?? Thanks in advance.

[str]

Sir STR, today's DRF Race of the Day is at SAR Race 9 The Glens Falls at 1 1/2 on turf. As a former trainer, I want to get your thoughts on the 6- Elegant Taste (ML 50-1). How do you handicap this horse?? Her highest Beyer is 58; this will be her first turf start and she has never gone beyond 1 1/16. Is this an automatic throw out?? If it is, then why would a trainer/owner even enter her in a G2 event?? She was claimed from her last race for $10k, trainer stats are horrible (only positive is that he had prior success at moving from dirt to turf). She has speed but there are other horses here that has speed. I just dont get why risk injury if she has like Zero chance even hit the board. Do they know something that we don't know?? Thanks in advance.

Q. Is this an automatic throw out??


A. YES !

I assume they are thinking, ( dreaming) that if the horse ran 3rd the mare would get black type and have a value as a broodmare ???

Or, he is doing the racing office a big favor so he can maybe run some other horse there but there would be 6 in there without him so that probably makes no sense?

I don't know, but I do know that trainer. He has been around in Md. since the late 80's I think. He is a nice guy. Plays guitar pretty well. Had a band with some track guys in the 90's. Seriously. Career weak numbers for 35 years.

Not a lot of speed though. But c'mon man.

My only hope is that he DID stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Sometimes you just have to look at a horse or trainer and decide, " if she or he wins, I lose". That is where I would land on this one
Mr. GandT

[mrginandtonic]

Q. Is this an automatic throw out??


A. YES !

I assume they are thinking, ( dreaming) that if the horse ran 3rd the mare would get black type and have a value as a broodmare ???

Or, he is doing the racing office a big favor so he can maybe run some other horse there but there would be 6 in there without him so that probably makes no sense?

I don't know, but I do know that trainer. He has been around in Md. since the late 80's I think. He is a nice guy. Plays guitar pretty well. Had a band with some track guys in the 90's. Seriously. Career weak numbers for 35 years.

Not a lot of speed though. But c'mon man.

My only hope is that he DID stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Sometimes you just have to look at a horse or trainer and decide, " if she or he wins, I lose". That is where I would land on this one
Mr. GandT

Thanks for your take. Yeah, I capping the same way. That takes me to another question; sometime a trainer would enter multiple horses in a stake race for different owners, and clearly one of the them is dominant. How do you tell the owners that we should run his/her horse?? I see that alot with Chad and Todd (Todd to a lesser degree). Or does the owner even care if that their horse running against someone who is clearly much better. Just trying to see why trainers do things. thanks

[str]

Thanks for your take. Yeah, I capping the same way. That takes me to another question; sometime a trainer would enter multiple horses in a stake race for different owners, and clearly one of the them is dominant. How do you tell the owners that we should run his/her horse?? I see that alot with Chad and Todd (Todd to a lesser degree). Or does the owner even care if that their horse running against someone who is clearly much better. Just trying to see why trainers do things. thanks

If there is an option as to where they can run, the trainer will usually have a conversation with the owner to see if they prefer running in race A or race B. The owners are definitely aware or made aware of who else in in their group in the same barn as far as competition. They know for the most part. So the owner , if they do not want to deal with that, could take their horse and give them to another trainer . BUT... the would still have to run against those same horses right?
Todd and Chad are doing such a nice job with their horses, leaving would be hard. And if the owner wants to shoot lower, they can just say, how about we skip the grade 1 and run at ... track in the whatever stakes instead. That happens.

Let's face it, no owner wants to run 2nd and drive home knowing the other half of the entry they were in with beat them. That can be tough after a while. But they just don't have any real great options. Because the owners want to try and win a grade 1 at Saratoga instead of going to let's say, Delaware Park and winning a grade 3 on the grass, they have a choice.

All this goes with the territory of having the leading trainer train for you. It happens in Stakes as well as claimers. You know it going in and it's just part of it. Again., nobody looks forward to it, but it's the choice they decide to accept.

Hope that helps. Follow up if I missed something.
All the best Mr. GandT

[mrginandtonic]

If there is an option as to where they can run, the trainer will usually have a conversation with the owner to see if they prefer running in race A or race B. The owners are definitely aware or made aware of who else in in their group in the same barn as far as competition. They know for the most part. So the owner , if they do not want to deal with that, could take their horse and give them to another trainer . BUT... the would still have to run against those same horses right?
Todd and Chad are doing such a nice job with their horses, leaving would be hard. And if the owner wants to shoot lower, they can just say, how about we skip the grade 1 and run at ... track in the whatever stakes instead. That happens.

Let's face it, no owner wants to run 2nd and drive home knowing the other half of the entry they were in with beat them. That can be tough after a while. But they just don't have any real great options. Because the owners want to try and win a grade 1 at Saratoga instead of going to let's say, Delaware Park and winning a grade 3 on the grass, they have a choice.

All this goes with the territory of having the leading trainer train for you. It happens in Stakes as well as claimers. You know it going in and it's just part of it. Again., nobody looks forward to it, but it's the choice they decide to accept.

Hope that helps. Follow up if I missed something.
All the best Mr. GandT

OK, thanks, I guess it's like you said, it's the choice they decide to accept.

[JBEX]

hey str


the army mule that just missed in an elp msw (turf route) is running in sar R1 tomorrow..probably as good a field of maidens as you'll see which explains the ml in spite of just missing .. only one other of the non a/e's has any experience..monster pedigrees

sunday

R1 #5 backstretch rose (12-1)


be a signature win if she could pull it off

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: the Whitney. your guy Dutrow trained the winner #5 White Abarrio. open lengths score. Congrats.

[JBEX]

congratulations str on rick dutrow jr winning the whitney !! know this means a lot to you ..think white abarrio is going to be a force to be reckoned with heading towards the breeders cup

[str]

Hey STR: the Whitney. your guy Dutrow trained the winner #5 White Abarrio. open lengths score. Congrats.

congratulations str on rick dutrow jr winning the whitney !! know this means a lot to you ..think white abarrio is going to be a force to be reckoned with heading towards the breeders cup

<br>



<br>

Thanks you guys !

I'm kind of speechless tonight. Hard to believe right ?
I've been texting pretty much since the race was over. So many friends from the racetrack from back in the day and me sending texts to the family.

All I have is WOW.

Thanks again you guys, It means a ton.

[str]

For all the happiness and joy For Team D yesterday, what an awful occurrence prior to that in the Test. I missed it live, thankfully. Don't have to see it to feel it. For the connections, it's something you never forget.

On a happier note, what a great race for Ricky in the Whitney. His horse was very ready to run yesterday. I saw where he actually let the horse blow out through the lane ( 1/4 pole to the wire), yesterday morning. That's is just another one of those little things that you don't see that often. Not really a work but more of a wake up call which worked beautifully. This horse , IMO only, was seemingly running that Z pattern type race I have talked about where he is in a decent position but as he goes down the backside, he kind of forfeits that position than has to work all that much harder as he gets half way around the turn. It's hard to win when you do that. But we saw none of that yesterday.

This might be really difficult to see but if anyone is interested, watch the replay and focus on the first 10 or so strides out of the gate. Now look at White Abarrio's right eye. Yeah, I know, c'mon man. But I'm serious, just look at his right eye and you can see a fully focused, let's get it on, ok game on, look in it. That horse yesterday was ALL Business. Not sure we have seen that in him before. I know I never noticed it. But maybe I wasn't looking as hard. But anyway, Irad was just along for the ride yesterday. Always in the bit, always ready to pounce. The horse was sharp as a tack yesterday.

Just a great effort by the horse and a great job by Ricky and his crew. If all stays well, we will see him at the BC Classic for sure.

It's days like yesterday that allow things to flood back in your mind. Really didn't expect it, but grateful for the experiences, memories, friendships, laughs, and cries I guess.

Thanks again for the kind posts. Much appreciated .

[Easy-Rider 66]

THx STR for the info on White Abarrio and the Dutrow training regimen. good to know. As for the Maple Leaf Mel Breakdown I saw it live and was stunned. Never saw a horse break down a couple of yards from the finish line with an easy win at hand. Hate to see that. Looks like Rosario will be OK.

[str]

hey str


the army mule that just missed in an elp msw (turf route) is running in sar R1 tomorrow..probably as good a field of maidens as you'll see which explains the ml in spite of just missing .. only one other of the non a/e's has any experience..monster pedigrees

sunday

R1 #5 backstretch rose (12-1)


be a signature win if she could pull it off

Almost missed this one.

An acid test against a field of pedigree giants. Just representing herself in here would be a real nice thing.

A win would be a real feather in the cap. If so, that headdress is getting pretty big as it is for Army Mule.

Thanks JBEX

These AM's are something else.

[JBEX]

Almost missed this one.

An acid test against a field of pedigree giants. Just representing herself in here would be a real nice thing.

A win would be a real feather in the cap. If so, that headdress is getting pretty big as it is for Army Mule.

Thanks JBEX

These AM's are something else.

no problem str

two AM (3yo's) ran in a 6f listed stakes at mth yesterday..it was a 9 horse field and they finished 3rd and 4th at odds of 7-1 and 19-1..seen both of them before

[mrginandtonic]

Just out of curiosity, does Army Mule have any turf pedigree since I don’t follow him. Thanks

[JBEX]

Just out of curiosity, does Army Mule have any turf pedigree since I don’t follow him. Thanks

I don't believe so mrgnt but not 100% sure .. he's had at least a couple who've run well on it

[mrginandtonic]

I don't believe so mrgnt but not 100% sure .. he's had at least a couple who've run well on it

Thanks. JBex

[JBEX]

Thanks. JBex

no problem

[str]

Just out of curiosity, does Army Mule have any turf pedigree since I don’t follow him. Thanks

Hi Mr. GandT

The dam ran races on the turf and won on the grass. I know she won the All Brandy Handicap which is a race in Md. For Md. breds only going long on the grass. She was bred and owned by Bohemia Stable, a big name in the business from back in the day.
Not sure if she won a graded race or not, my guess would be probably not. A very useful horse but not a great horse turf or dirt in general.

I did not go back in her pedigree other than the dam.

Seems like these horses run on everything short or long. That's what makes this sire even more desirable IMO.

At that still reduced stud fee of 12,500, they must get several hundred requests each year for breeding services. That allows them to pick and choose I suppose.

It's seems rare when one of them doesn't show up in a race. They just all run hard so it seems, no matter the distance or surface.

[JBEX]

"haul" (haul ass lol) (AM) who broke his maiden first out at belmont first out will be running in the saratoga special (g2) on saturday..3-1 ml 2nd choice as there's a 4-5 favorite ..irad/pletcher and the home court training edge

[mrginandtonic]

Hi Mr. GandT

The dam ran races on the turf and won on the grass. I know she won the All Brandy Handicap which is a race in Md. For Md. breds only going long on the grass. She was bred and owned by Bohemia Stable, a big name in the business from back in the day.
Not sure if she won a graded race or not, my guess would be probably not. A very useful horse but not a great horse turf or dirt in general.

I did not go back in her pedigree other than the dam.

Seems like these horses run on everything short or long. That's what makes this sire even more desirable IMO.

At that still reduced stud fee of 12,500, they must get several hundred requests each year for breeding services. That allows them to pick and choose I suppose.

It's seems rare when one of them doesn't show up in a race. They just all run hard so it seems, no matter the distance or surface.

Thanks very much Sir for the info. I only remember the sire was Friesan Fire which I think of him as dirt horse. I don't know who the damn was. Much appreciate on your take. Thank you.

[JBEX]

Thanks very much Sir for the info. I only remember the sire was Friesan Fire which I think of him as dirt horse. I don't know who the damn was. Much appreciate on your take. Thank you.

the dam sire is crafty prospector who was active for a long time and was a speed influence ..while there are always exceptions I think AM will need stamina blood on the bottom to get consistent route horses..if he has another good year ,which it's looking like he will,probably will get more classy and stoutly bred mares down the road

[JBEX]

I think he has a good shot at being a $50k fee 5-7 years down the road or possibly sooner

[Easy-Rider 66]

Hey STR: I read that the powers that be over the Preakness are strongly considering moving the race date back to 4 weeks from the Derby. However, NYRA powers that be are pushing back saying they have no intention of moving back the Belmont. What say you? Do you think extra spacing between the events is warranted?

[str]

the dam sire is crafty prospector who was active for a long time and was a speed influence ..while there are always exceptions I think AM will need stamina blood on the bottom to get consistent route horses..if he has another good year ,which it's looking like he will,probably will get more classy and stoutly bred mares down the road

Totally agree. At this point, he has made enough of a name for himself that owners of quality mares would be crazy not to at least consider him.