Coinbase giving 14k people's records to IRS

[scavsiu8]

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/coinbase-ordered-hand-14000-user-accounts-irs/amp/

Wonder if they will communicate with the people that they get forced to hand over?

[Optional]

The govt asked for all records for several years.

Coinbase have been fighting them over it for a while.

This is considered a win as only accounts with genuine reasons to be suspicous ended up being allowed by the court.


If you have just been using Coinbase to transfer money to and from bookmakers there is very little chance it will affect you.

People trading and not declaring capital gains for tax, people transferring to suspicious end users and people trying to hide large amounts in bitcoin like a Swiss bank account are the main targets.

[mrpapageorgio]

The IRS originally wanted I think 500k records, and only got 14k, which if I were a betting man, would say nobody here will be affected unless someone got paid 6 figures in bitcoin from the books.

[Legions36]

The govt asked for all records for several years.

Coinbase have been fighting them over it for a while.

This is considered a win as only accounts with genuine reasons to be suspicous ended up being allowed by the court.


If you have just been using Coinbase to transfer money to and from bookmakers there is very little chance it will affect you.

People trading and not declaring capital gains for tax, people transferring to suspicious end users and people trying to hide large amounts in bitcoin like a Swiss bank account are the main targets.

I'm still confused with all the articles floating around about it. This "over 20k" they keep saying has me not understanding this properly, i know it was asked before but what it the full story about it?
1) Does this mean over 20k worth for any 1 transaction? at any time over each of the years they are asking for. For instance you buy 15 bitcoin at the time valued more than 20k but this is only one transaction.
2) Does this mean over 20k worth during the coarse of the year adding over 20k in transaction type? Meaning you buy 3000 worth each time over the year that adds up to more than this "over 20k"
3) Does this mean over 20k worth during the coarse of the year for transaction types of any of them combined (buy, sell, deposit, withdraw) ? Same as 2 but add in buy, sell, send , receive
Or anything else you can think of?
Sorry for the specifics but I'm sure anyone who used coinbase is thinking the same thing.
MY guess is 1) but all the articles about this contradict each other.

[Optional]

I'm still confused with all the articles floating around about it. This "over 20k" they keep saying has me not understanding this properly, i know it was asked before but what it the full story about it?
1) Does this mean over 20k worth for any 1 transaction? at any time over each of the years they are asking for. For instance you buy 15 bitcoin at the time valued more than 20k but this is only one transaction.
2) Does this mean over 20k worth during the coarse of the year adding over 20k in transaction type? Meaning you buy 3000 worth each time over the year that adds up to more than this "over 20k"
3) Does this mean over 20k worth during the coarse of the year for transaction types of any of them combined (buy, sell, deposit, withdraw) ? Same as 2 but add in buy, sell, send , receive
Or anything else you can think of?
Sorry for the specifics but I'm sure anyone who used coinbase is thinking the same thing.
MY guess is 1) but all the articles about this contradict each other.

I don't know those specifics. Good questions though. I'm not even sure the 20k thing was part of the final ruling for sure. I'm just going off a news article I read that said pretty much what I posted above.


But considering the huge user base they are supposed to have I'd be surprised if only 14,000 accounts have moved 20k total in a year over that period. I guess it sounds like a big number, but it would only be the biggest 1% if they had 1.4 million users at the time.

So unless you're moving a lot more than 20k around, I dont think I would get too worried.

[Legions36]

I don't know those specifics. Good questions though. I'm not even sure the 20k thing was part of the final ruling for sure. I'm just going off a news article I read that said pretty much what I posted above.


But considering the huge user base they are supposed to have I'd be surprised if only 14,000 accounts have moved 20k total in a year over that period. I guess it sounds like a big number, but it would only be the biggest 1% if they had 1.4 million users at the time.

So unless you're moving a lot more than 20k around, I dont think I would get too worried.

Yeah what your saying makes a lot of since since they have millions of customers and only 14k affected from this. I'm for sure not in that class. I completely stopped using coinbase just hearing about this stuff makes you wonder.

[Optional]

Yeah what your saying makes a lot of since since they have millions of customers and only 14k affected from this. I'm for sure not in that class. I completely stopped using coinbase just hearing about this stuff makes you wonder.

I think more and more reporting will be required by them over time.

Watched a news show claiming they are signing up 100k new people per week at the moment.

Way too many users for the govt to just ignore.

[mrpapageorgio]

I'm still confused with all the articles floating around about it. This "over 20k" they keep saying has me not understanding this properly, i know it was asked before but what it the full story about it?
1) Does this mean over 20k worth for any 1 transaction? at any time over each of the years they are asking for. For instance you buy 15 bitcoin at the time valued more than 20k but this is only one transaction.
2) Does this mean over 20k worth during the coarse of the year adding over 20k in transaction type? Meaning you buy 3000 worth each time over the year that adds up to more than this "over 20k"
3) Does this mean over 20k worth during the coarse of the year for transaction types of any of them combined (buy, sell, deposit, withdraw) ? Same as 2 but add in buy, sell, send , receive
Or anything else you can think of?
Sorry for the specifics but I'm sure anyone who used coinbase is thinking the same thing.
MY guess is 1) but all the articles about this contradict each other.

Per the order,

As modified, the IRS now seeks information regarding accounts “with at least the equivalent of$20,000 in any one transaction type (buy, sell, send, or receive) in any one year during the 2013-2015 period.” 2.) The Narrowed Summons do[es] not include users: (a) who only bought and held bitcoin during the 2013-15 period; or (b) for which Coinbase filed Forms 1099-K during the 2013-15 period.

(https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/...se-irs-records)

The time period and price is important, because the court is only letting the IRS seek out the potential big fish. Assuming the average price of bitcoin was $500 in that period, then $20k would buy you 40 Bitcoin. Well that amount of bitcoin is now worth over $400k and if you sold for a profit, you're supposed to pay capital gains taxes. Not being a government cheerleader, but the IRS They're basically looking for those that bought a lot of bitcoin, have held, and now have a fortune worth of bitcoin.

[Legions36]

Per the order,



(https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/29/...se-irs-records)

The time period and price is important, because the court is only letting the IRS seek out the potential big fish. Assuming the average price of bitcoin was $500 in that period, then $20k would buy you 40 Bitcoin. Well that amount of bitcoin is now worth over $400k and if you sold for a profit, you're supposed to pay capital gains taxes. Not being a government cheerleader, but the IRS They're basically looking for those that bought a lot of bitcoin, have held, and now have a fortune worth of bitcoin.

TY. This is exactly what I was looking for as the answer. This changes everything and protects the smaller guys who were doing this as a hobby like myself a few years back when coinbase came around.

[Roscoe_Word]

The IRS is seeking to tax people who showed a profit investing in bitcoin.

Wonder if the IRS will be as eager to allow BTC investors to claim huge losses as a deduction should the market crash.

I noticed the "international banker" types on shows like FoxBusiness are bearish on BTC. My guess is they don't care for a currency they can't control.

[Bsims]

As poster MeanPeopleSuck pointed out the major concern about the IRS getting access to some Coinbase user records (and he predicted they would) is what happens next. He felt that they would find major fraud. Then they would go back for more. Ultimately they will force Coinbase and similar companies to provide all user records (just like stock brokers).

But I foresee a real problem for the IRS and tax payers. On stock trades it's pretty easy to measure the dollar value for gains and losses. With cryptocurrency, not so easy. If I buy BTC then exchange them for ETH, then these for LTC, and so on. That will be a real mess to track and verify. I'm sure I won't be around when they figure it out.

[mrpapageorgio]

As poster MeanPeopleSuck pointed out the major concern about the IRS getting access to some Coinbase user records (and he predicted they would) is what happens next. He felt that they would find major fraud. Then they would go back for more. Ultimately they will force Coinbase and similar companies to provide all user records (just like stock brokers).

But I foresee a real problem for the IRS and tax payers. On stock trades it's pretty easy to measure the dollar value for gains and losses. With cryptocurrency, not so easy. If I buy BTC then exchange them for ETH, then these for LTC, and so on. That will be a real mess to track and verify. I'm sure I won't be around when they figure it out.

The second point you bring up is why I'm more skeptical of the IRS' attempts to dig too deep into bitcoin records. At what point does it cost more to investigate and collect the taxes than what you may be getting? Worker's wages and a lot of other income streams are pretty much automated when reported to the IRS so it doesn't cost much to send out a letter if the computer sees an employer reporting $50k in income but your tax return only declares $20k. It's also easy to track a stock's profit or loss since you pretty much buy/sell through the same broker and they can report how much it was when you bought and how much when you sold. Bitcoin is very portable and it only takes a few bounces through the internet to/from different wallets before it becomes very difficult to determine what the tax basis is or how much the individual really owns. Sure there are companies that can try and do a forensic analysis, but are you going to pay them $50k for a forensic analysis if you're at best going to get $10k and no guarantee the analysis will turn up anything?

[RangeFinder]

It's not an issue if you just pay your taxes and live your life the right way

[mrpapageorgio]

It's not an issue if you just pay your taxes and live your life the right way

And the nice part is it's only capital gains taxes and not income taxes; so if you made a fortune, it's less than what you'd be paying had you received a paycheck in the same amount.

With that said, there's many people involved in crypto that on a philosophical level have an issue with the IRS and the Fed and is why they got involved with crypto in the first place. Having to pay "the man" for their gains for investing in a currency that "the man" doesn't control puts an extremely bad taste in their mouth.

Most people on here are gamblers and could give a damn about taking down "the man" with Bitcoin and just want to make money, but there is also that group.

[Bsims]

It's not an issue if you just pay your taxes and live your life the right way

You're missing my point. I can't report my capital gains or losses with the current IRS system. I report a stock market exchange on Form 8949. I record DIA ETF in column A, the proceeds of the sale in column D, the cost in column E. I then subtract the two and record the gain or loss in column H. It's easy, proceeds $500, cost $400, gain $100.

In my ETH example above, my proceeds were 50 LTC, cost. 0.0135 BTC. So, what was my gain or loss?

[Optional]

You're missing my point. I can't report my capital gains or losses with the current IRS system. I report a stock market exchange on Form 8949. I record DIA ETF in column A, the proceeds of the sale in column D, the cost in column E. I then subtract the two and record the gain or loss in column H. It's easy, proceeds $500, cost $400, gain $100.

In my ETH example above, my proceeds were 50 LTC, cost. 0.0135 BTC. So, what was my gain or loss?

Here are the IRS guidelines. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-vir...rency-guidance

You may not like it but you definitely can report your profit/losses from crypto.

[TheMoneyShot]

You're missing my point. I can't report my capital gains or losses with the current IRS system. I report a stock market exchange on Form 8949. I record DIA ETF in column A, the proceeds of the sale in column D, the cost in column E. I then subtract the two and record the gain or loss in column H. It's easy, proceeds $500, cost $400, gain $100.

In my ETH example above, my proceeds were 50 LTC, cost. 0.0135 BTC. So, what was my gain or loss?

Uh.... from what I've heard you're not suppose to be listing Crypto as "stocks". Crypto is considered "property".

Make sure you use the right tax forms.

[play4win]

americans pay tax on everything

[mrpapageorgio]

americans pay tax on everything

Gas tax, income tax, tic tax, carpet tax, thumb tax......