Neteller. Mysterious payment system.

**Toit** · 08-09-11, 03:19 PM

Did you only use your account for bookmakers or did you also use it to pay friends, relatives or other associates?

**PVO** · 08-09-11, 04:04 PM

only bookmakers, betfair and matchbook

deposits from bank account (international bank transfer)
transfers only to bookmakers (+betfair, + matchbook), transfers back only from the same bookmakers (+betfair)
1 test withdrawal to the same bank account (international bank transfer)

(by the way the first withdrawal took about 3 weeks to be processed and again no communication from Neteller about simplest things

i called a lot to support and was making assumption after assumption trying to understand what difficulties they have)

never invited any friend or so, never invited anybody

--------

but really - why this can be important at all ?
the core of the situation is written in my previous post - my current questions.
the situation when access of verified customer to his account is disabled without open reason must be illegal.

it's the core. why i have to guess - what the **** is going on ?
if they disable or close account they must have proper reason for this moment.
and as the reason is proper - no problem to open it.
i don't believe that any authorities can prevent payment system from opening the information.
if the information is proven - no reason to hide it.
there is reason to hide - if there is nothing proven and there are only questions and suspicions there.

but questions and suspicions are not the proper reasons to close account. it's bullshit.
maybe you hired idiot to this job and he sees nightmares everywhere - it should be his problem, not mine.
questions are for asking, suspicions are for verifiing - not for making decision about money you do not own.
and i am ready to give the answers, and to dispel suspicions. let's communicate.

but maybe this situation when EMI takes customer's money without open reason is not illegal ?
this is the core and this is what must be discovered.

**PVO** · 08-10-11, 02:44 AM

Really - no competent person on the forum like this who can help with english laws ?

No englishman or noone ever read laws ?

**ziigmund** · 08-10-11, 03:09 AM

It seems that you transfered a lot of money through Neteller, right ?

**Hareeba!** · 08-10-11, 03:24 AM

Originally posted by PVO

Really - no competent person on the forum like this who can help with english laws ?

No englishman or noone ever read laws ?

Sure but you won't read anything I post

I told you what the most probable cause of your problem is
No doubt you'll discover that for yourself in due course

**juuso** · 08-10-11, 03:41 AM

Neteller has a habit of locking accounts for very small reasons. They are quite strict on security. For example, if you log in from different IP's, from abroad or they might want a phone contact with you or you to resend ID.

However, there's probably more to this story. They shouldn't permanently close the account easily.

**PVO** · 08-10-11, 03:51 AM

Originally posted by ziigmund

It seems that you transfered a lot of money through Neteller, right ?

what you mean "a lot" ? in numbers.

and again - anybody - before to ask something - thing twice - what relation it has to the subject - and show this relation.

**PVO** · 08-10-11, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by juuso

Neteller has a habit of locking accounts for very small reasons. They are quite strict on security. For example, if you log in from different IP's, from abroad or they might want a phone contact with you or you to resend ID.

This are proper reasons. And there is no need to hide it.
And there is no problem with this reasons. And more - i will be thankful if so.

And this is not about my situation.

However, there's probably more to this story. They shouldn't permanently close the account easily.

Yes. There is more. Neteller did close account without reason. I am sure. More - IT'S THE FACT FOR ME.
I see - account is closed, and no proper reason at my e-mail or by phone call.
And now i am searching for the information - why this can be legal.

For me it's the same situation if i opened account in bank, put my money there.
And when i come back to take them - their securities just don't let me to enter.
Add that there are no charges against me, and there is no my guilt.

The bank will be without license as a result.
Here we have the same situation but here is electronic money, i am in one country, Neteller is in another.
This are the differences, but the core is the same.

And all this about laws that regulate EMIs activity.

**Hareeba!** · 08-10-11, 04:12 AM

As I posted earlier I think it very likely that for whatever reason, Neteller has suspicions about PVO's account / transactions and has posted a Suspicious Activity Report with the authorities. Many countries have similar legislation to this from Canada:

Under Canada’s Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act, employees of reporting entities and the reporting entities themselves are prohibited from disclosing that a suspicious transaction report was filed with FINTRAC, or the content of those reports with the intent to prejudice a criminal investigation. An employee or reporting entity that discloses filing a suspicious transaction report or the content of such a report with the intent to prejudice a criminal investigation is liable on conviction to a prison term of up to two years.

**PVO** · 08-10-11, 04:25 AM

Till i will see the laws that clearly claim this behavior of payment system (taking customer's money without proper reason) is illegal i will think this is legal (but not fair for sure).

And if finally i will discover that this is legal - it will mean for me that all this electronic money industry is doubtful.

If finally i will discover that this is illegal - it will mean Neteller made mistake with my account.

This all about laws.

**PVO** · 08-10-11, 06:03 AM

Have got the e-mail answer from FSA (electronicmoney@fsa.gov.uk).
I don't think they did understand me correctly, so i will continue to communicate with them, but there was useful information in the answer.

Anyone who want to understand customer rights shoud read the Part 5 of Electronic Money Regulations.

I am trying to understand this now. It's Greek.

But we see

Issuance and redeemability

39. An electronic money issuer must—
(a)on receipt of funds, issue without delay electronic money at par value; and
(b)at the request of the electronic money holder, redeem—
(i)at any time; and
(ii)at par value,
the monetary value of the electronic money held.

So at least at any time the customer can take his money back. EMI must redeem. This is the law.
At any time.

Sure in conflict situation to request back all the money can be the end of cooperation, but if EMI blocks account without reason it is anyway good idea to stop cooperation till clarification of this bullshit.

**PVO** · 08-10-11, 06:22 AM

But we still have to carefully discover - how we can classify the situation when Electronic Money Issuer intentionally prevents the Electronic Money Holder to operate his electronic money without any proper reason (no technical problems, no security reasons, no criminal, nothing proper).

Is this legal or illegal ?

**Santo** · 08-10-11, 06:59 AM

I'm not sure why you think legal action will be quicker than the ombudsman -- I guarantee you it won't be. Not least because if you sue Neteller, UK Law is irrelevant and you need to be looking towards the Isle of Man.

**PVO** · 08-10-11, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Santo

I'm not sure why you think legal action will be quicker than the ombudsman...

I don't think so. I see the ombudsman is slow. This is for sure.
I don't know yet how fast will be legal action. And made no decision about legal action.

But now i see that if Neteller will pay back my money after my redemption request (according to EMR 2011, part V, point 39) there is no serious problem.

I've just sent this request by e-mail to Neteller with a copy to Ombudsman Service.
I've strived to be very polite. (It was not too difficult because now i understand the situation better).

So now i have to wait for some time. If i will be successful and Neteller will pay back the rest of money on my account - i feel there will be no serious problem at all and i will post the text of my e-mail here.

If there is really unfinished investigation about suspicious activity and account was closed by error before investigation is over - this will be perfect solution for this moment.
Just hope Neteller investigation department will see this.

**PVO** · 08-10-11, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by Santo

...Not least because if you sue Neteller, UK Law is irrelevant and you need to be looking towards the Isle of Man.

Here i think you are not absolutely right.

The customer can base on FSA alone and FSA regulations. If there any breaks of FSA regulations will be found - it should be enough to defend the truth and as maximum punishment to push EMI out of FSA Register.
It will be epic fail for the trademark. No need to do something else.

If there is no breaks of FSA regulations - there is anyway nothing to talk about (?) - with FSA or in court - but this maybe can be the epic fail for all the industry of e-money.

And maybe i am wrong about possibility to find any other way related to FSA except Ombudsman service. Maybe there is no other way. I don't know yet.

**ziigmund** · 08-11-11, 07:28 AM

Ok PVO, How much did you transfer through Neteller to bookmakers and did you used neteller for you payouts? I hope you get things sorted out with Neteller asap.

**PVO** · 08-11-11, 08:34 AM

Total turnover to bookmakers was about 20k euro (but i am not sure in this, something like this, maybe up to 25).
This is turnover in direction to bookmakers.
One (first test) payout was made for 700 euro to my bank account registered to my name.
If you mean payouts from bookmakers to Neteller - yes, i used, comparable sums as to bookmakers.

... and show the relation to the subject!

**PVO** · 08-12-11, 11:19 PM

Nothing

no answers from Neteller

**Hareeba!** · 08-13-11, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by PVO

Nothing

no answers from Neteller

Of course there's no answer from them if they've filed a suspicious transaction report which seems almost a certainty. They would face prosecution themselves for answering you.

But of course you don't get to read my posts so enjoy the drawn out suffering in your ignorance of their wisdom

**PVO** · 08-17-11, 08:33 PM

Here is the news.

Today i did understand basic formulation about all similar situations. Anyone can ask questions like below to any electronic money payment system support (i recommend not to do this with your real fullname (and of course with your real ip or account number) because as you will soon see - maybe you will talk with criminals and reaction may be inappropriate). So.

CUSTOMER QUESTION: If we have fully verified customer - can we in the future face the situation like this:
on one side there is the payment system who closed customer's account, does not pay back (redeem) the rest of the money, and give no information to the customer about what is going on (because maybe for any reason they decided that customer is "criminal" and they have no need to communicate with "criminal")
and on the other side there is the customer, who is confident he is not "criminal", who is ready to communicate and wondering what is going on with the account and "where is my money" ?
Is this situation possible?

VERY PROBABLE ANSWER: Yes. If the account activity will be considered as fraudulent or criminal then the payment system can close account without giving you any reason.

CUSTOMER QUESTION: Who can consider my account activity fraudulent or criminal ?

VERY PROBABLE ANSWER: Our security department.

Anyone "see the bullshit written all over it" ?
This answers will mean literally that the electronic money payment system think that they can take your money by own decision at any time just because their own security department told.

NEXT CUSTOMER QUESTION: How is it agreed with any laws? What laws give the Electronic Money Issuer the right to make decision about is account activity criminal or no and the right to confiscate customer's money ?

now looking for the answer

and next question will be about laws that give the right to hide reason

**Hareeba!** · 08-17-11, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by PVO

Here is the news.

Today i did understand basic formulation about all similar situations. Anyone can ask questions like below to any payment system support (i recommend not to do this with your real fullname (and of course with your real ip or account number) because as you will soon see - maybe you will talk with criminals and reaction may be inappropriate). So.

CUSTOMER QUESTION: If we have fully verified customer - can we in the future face the situation like this:
on one side there is the payment system who closed customer's account, does not pay back (redeem) the rest of the money, and give no information to the customer about what is going on (because maybe for any reason they decided that customer is "criminal" and they have no need to communicate with "criminal")
and on the other side there is the customer, who is confident he is not "criminal", who is ready to communicate and wondering what is going on with the account ?
Is this situation possible.

VERY PROBABLE ANSWER: Yes. If the account activity will be considered as fraudulent or illegal than the payment system can close account without giving you any reason.

CUSTOMER QUESTION: Who can consider my account activity fraudulent or criminal ?

VERY PROBABLE ANSWER: Our security department.

Anyone "see the bullshit written all over it" ?
This answers will mean literally that the electronic payment system think that they can take your money by own decision at any time just because their own security department told.

NEXT CUSTOMER QUESTION: How is it agreed with any laws? What laws give the Electronic Money Issuer the right to make decision about is account activity is criminal or no and confiscate customer's money ?

now looking for the answer

you've been given the answer but are too blind to see it!

**PVO** · 08-17-11, 09:45 PM

Oh. Hareeba again. Why do you think noone answers you ? Because i asked for this - if you are keeping to post bullshit - don't answer him here.
This is sign for me. Noone answers you. It means you are keeping to post bullshit.
Maybe you again have to reread what i asked and reread what you posted. And think several times before to post anything else.
I guess you can't understand my questions as usually. Maybe i am wrong. I will see if so - someone will quote you.

This is question for this moment.
What laws give the Electronic Money Issuer the right to make decision about is account activity criminal or no and the right to confiscate customer's money ?
And what part, paragraph, point sure? I keep asking FSA but maybe anyone can answer right now?

**Hareeba!** · 08-17-11, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by PVO

Oh. Hareeba again. Why do you think noone answers you ? Because i asked for this - if you are keeping to post bullshit - don't answer him here.
This is sign for me. Noone answers you. It means you are keeping to post bullshit.
Maybe you again have to reread what i asked and reread what you posted. And think several times before to post anything else.
I guess you can't understand my questions as usually. Maybe i am wrong. I will see if so - someone will quote you.

This is question for this moment.
What laws give the Electronic Money Issuer the right to make decision about is account activity criminal or no and the right to confiscate customer's money ?
And what part, paragraph, point sure? I keep asking FSA but maybe anyone can answer right now?

YOU are the one asking for an answer. Not me!
And I've given you the answer.
Maybe it is you who should be doing the reading.

**PVO** · 08-18-11, 03:08 AM

This is question for this moment.
What laws give the Electronic Money Issuer the right to make decision about is account activity criminal or no and/or the right to suspend or close account and/or confiscate customer's money ?
Without giving reason.
And what part, paragraph, point sure? I keep asking FSA but maybe anyone can answer right now?

and if you see hareeba did post something useful - please quote him

**tommygun** · 08-21-11, 11:02 PM

PVO not trying to rain on your parade here, but if you un-ignore Hareeba he has actually provided some useful information worth having a look at.

**PVO** · 08-22-11, 03:54 AM

tommygun, thank you... ok i did read Hareeba... wonder what could i miss ? see no useful information.
can you quote please - where Hareeba gives the answer ?

This is question for this moment.
What laws give the Electronic Money Issuer the right to make decision about is account activity criminal or no and/or the right to suspend or close account and/or confiscate customer's money ?
Without giving reason.
And what part, paragraph, point sure? I keep asking FSA but maybe anyone can answer right now?

p.s.
I know about Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act. I've got this information from FSA, but this document is huge, and as i read everything carefully now

, i didn't read it to the end yet.
Now i know that financial organisations must have special specialists that specialize in special situations. I know that they are obliged in very special situations to write very-very secret special reports to other special specialists and they are obliged to hide this fact from the customer (otherwise they will face top-secret anal punishment). That' ok.

But i still don't know why financial organization can steal my money?
Why EMI has a right to close my account without giving reason and do not answer to me anything and do not redeem my electronic money at any time at par value ?
This "suspicious report" is of no interest if there is no link to my money. Write any papers you like. Where is link to me?

If you know where is the answer - just tell paragraph, point - is it difficult ?
Hareeba didn't tell. If i did miss this information from Hareeba, can you, tommygun, please quote it for me?

**tommygun** · 08-22-11, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by PVO

tommygun, thank you... ok i did read Hareeba... wonder what could i miss ? see no useful information. can you quote please - where Hareeba gives the answer ? This is question for this moment. What laws give the Electronic Money Issuer the right to make decision about is account activity criminal or no and/or the right to suspend or close account and/or confiscate customer's money ? Without giving reason. And what part, paragraph, point sure? I keep asking FSA but maybe anyone can answer right now? p.s. I know about Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act. I've got this information from FSA, but this document is huge, and as i read everything carefully now

, i didn't read it to the end yet. Now i know that financial organisations must have special specialists that specialize in special situations. I know that they are obliged in very special situations to write very-very secret special reports to other special specialists and they are obliged to hide this fact from the customer (otherwise they will face top-secret anal punishment). That' ok. But i still don't know why financial organization can steal my money? Why EMI has a right to close my account without giving reason and do not answer to me anything and do not redeem my electronic money at any time at par value ? This "suspicious report" is of no interest if there is no link to my money. Write any papers you like. Where is link to me? If you know where is the answer - just tell paragraph, point - is it difficult ? Hareeba didn't tell. If i did miss this information from Hareeba, can you, tommygun, please quote it for me?

I'm sure you can read buddy, all your posts are essay worthy.

**Monte** · 08-22-11, 10:52 AM

This is the most amazing trolling i've seen in a long time, sbr would be the last place i'd go to when looking for help with a serious and honest Neteller problem. Priceless

**PVO** · 08-22-11, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Monte

This is the most amazing trolling i've seen in a long time, sbr would be the last place i'd go to when looking for help with a serious and honest Neteller problem. Priceless

well, i am relatively new in betting industry so maybe i don't know where to go with problems
SBR really did help me with closed Eurobet account
SBR is not first place where i go for help, but not the last for sure
i go everywhere - neteller support, neteller complaints dep, neteller investigations dep, neteller twitter lol, ombudsman service, fsa, my friends, several forums - and amongst the forums SBR is best for me
Monte, where is better ?

Originally posted by tommygun

I'm sure you can read buddy, all your posts are essay worthy.

I can repeat - i can't. Help me if you really want. Quote the answer to any of my actual questions from hareeba's posts.

**Snatch** · 08-22-11, 11:50 AM

You are obviously under investigation. It would be best to contact the proper authority and ask how you can comply, supplying the necessary information to conclude the investigation. Perhaps the Ombudsman Service can give you information on how you can facilitate a quicker resolution.

**PVO** · 08-22-11, 11:58 AM

Snatch, i know that i am under investigation. This is only thing i know.
But this is not the answer - why my account is closed ?
Maybe you think that if someone in investigation department want to investigate something - it means that account must be closed.
Is it really obvious? For me - No. You can explain - how this two things are related ?

**Santo** · 08-22-11, 12:08 PM

If they didn't close the account, you could/would withdraw the money, and then there's no point in investigating it.

**PVO** · 08-22-11, 12:27 PM

oh. really ? and what's the point now ?

(this is not ritorical question for me - it needs answer)

**Snatch** · 08-22-11, 12:51 PM

WHY no longer matters. HOW is what is important. How can you get this resolved by helping the authorities decide your funds are not tainted. Focusing on why is wasted energy.

**PVO** · 08-22-11, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Snatch

WHY no longer matters. HOW is what is important. How can you get this resolved by helping the authorities decide your funds are not tainted. Focusing on why is wasted energy.

Not bad.

But, Snatch - why you guess i should do something that noone ever asked me to do? Noone asked me for help to understand something about anything, noone ever contacted me related to this subject and asked to explain anything.
What are you really talking about? What authorities? Ombudsman service? They are waiting 8 weeks. This is written above.
And you lost the sense of WHY - if i go to authorities i have to explain - WHY i think that something is wrong. And only after this there will be the question - HOW to get things back to the right way.

And this is the answer i am searching for. Why the situation when:
EMI closed account of fully verified customer without giving reason
EMI intentionally prevents access of customer to his e-money
EMI does not redeem customer's e-money at his request at any time at par value
is wrong? or maybe why it isn't wrong ?

And where will we be with the question HOW - if there is nothing wrong, Snatch ?