Be careful playing with 5Dimes

**Bill Dozer** · 09-14-10, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by Mikail

Both sides have a point. The thing that interests me most here is not once has an sbr upper tier management poster commented at all. That to me is speaking volumes. I think everyone would like to hear sbr's opinion on the matter.

We received and addressed the dispute before he posted and later responded in a another thread. The policy for bad lines that are not caught before game time, which SBR helped set as standard, is for the book to pay at the top end of correct market odds. That's what happened here.

Originally posted by raydog

paco, whats shakin... hope all is well on the homefront bro...

imo, too much debate on what should happen during a bad line...do you really think that the book should be financially punished because people with poor morals took a shot at obvious human error? no, absolutely not. its flat out stealing when you attempt to bet bad lines...some books will chuck you altogether ... i really dont like this guy saying that he didnt know the lines on casey and the 20/1 line were bad...the guy bets a lot of golf..he took shots and knew it..nobody should be rewarded for that... thats how i handle things and just my opinion on this matter.

As said in that thread, You can't blame the player for being upset and sharing his experience. He argues that there really isn't a way for players to determine if a golf line is bad because there isn't a market for it. No other books offer the lines 5Dimes does and he can't spot a gross error in golf and something like High School football. He points out the bet was pending for a long time and 5D didn't catch it until it was in play. Unfortunately books like 5D and Pinnacle with unique markets have these errors once in a while. It's possible to have bad lines and the players not realize it. I don't label this player as a shot taker and he's not a market maker either so he may not realize the odds to place in top 3 are almost the same. He acknowledged the line could have been a bad line but he argues it's not his problem and he had action... The bet was taken and he wasn't taking shot. 5Dimes knows they made a mistake with the line but can show it was not fair odds. The argument comes in at how to handle it. Paying at the correct market odds is the resolution. It doesn't change that the error stings the player but 5dimes isn't canceling bets on stale lines or stealing wins.

**raydog** · 09-14-10, 03:08 AM

yeah bill, i agree that 5D needs to tighten up on all damn number entry mistakes... a book with this much volume is going to have more issues, but should have better all around service and they simply dont...

back to the player...he took and obvious shot at the Casey bet... thats not even debatable. and you know good and well that since he said he was studying Watney, that he looked at all his odds as well as his daily matchups, and he realized...wow, these top 20 odds are way off... like extra innings said in another thread, its 3rd grade math to know that the odds for finishing in the top 20 are less than finishing in the top 5... its pretty obvious to me what happened and i hate to see a good book get raked over the coals for yet another player betting bad lines and accusing the book of cheating them...

**paco** · 09-14-10, 03:09 AM

Great answer Dozer. That's why the Sbr staff is A-1

**shari91** · 09-14-10, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by Bill Dozer

We received and addressed the dispute before he posted and later responded in a another thread. The policy for bad lines that are not caught before game time, which SBR helped set as standard, is for the book to pay at the top end of correct market odds. That's what happened here.

As said in that thread, You can't blame the player for being upset and sharing his experience. He argues that there really isn't a way for players to determine if a golf line is bad because there isn't a market for it. No other books offer the lines 5Dimes does and he can't spot a gross error in golf and something like High School football. He points out the bet was pending for a long time and 5D didn't catch it until it was in play. Unfortunately books like 5D and Pinnacle with unique markets have these errors once in a while. It's possible to have bad lines and the players not realize it. I don't label this player as a shot taker and he's not a market maker either so he may not realize the odds to place in top 3 are almost the same. He acknowledged the line could have been a bad line but he argues it's not his problem and he had action... The bet was taken and he wasn't taking shot. 5Dimes knows they made a mistake with the line and can show it was not fair odds. The argument comes in at how to handle it. Paying at the correct market odds is the resolution. It doesn't change that the error stings the player but 5dimes isn't canceling bets on stale lines or stealing wins.

Between Ray's speculation as to why the bet may not have been caught until the final day of the tournament and your acknowledgment that not everyone who bets a bad line in these rinky-dink markets would realise that they're doing so, especially when the book is the only one hanging the lines in the first place, I think everyone should feel satisfied with the outcome.

That being said though, I'm still not giving this guy any of my cash at any point. I'm not willing to risk Tony's wrath if I should ever innocently find myself in the same position.

**HoldEmHook!!** · 09-14-10, 03:25 AM

IMO this situation is the poster child for the reason I play through a local. When the line adjusted down as bets where placed to me that made them legit......either way Tony handled it like a DICK. and he called the bettor a keyboard warrior. Tony should look in the mirror

**BetterBizness** · 09-14-10, 03:31 AM

Originally posted by Bill Dozer

We received and addressed the dispute before he posted and later responded in a another thread. The policy for bad lines that are not caught before game time, which SBR helped set as standard, is for the book to pay at the top end of correct market odds. That's what happened here.

As said in that thread, You can't blame the player for being upset and sharing his experience. He argues that there really isn't a way for players to determine if a golf line is bad because there isn't a market for it. No other books offer the lines 5Dimes does and he can't spot a gross error in golf and something like High School football. He points out the bet was pending for a long time and 5D didn't catch it until it was in play. Unfortunately books like 5D and Pinnacle with unique markets have these errors once in a while. It's possible to have bad lines and the players not realize it. I don't label this player as a shot taker and he's not a market maker either so he may not realize the odds to place in top 3 are almost the same. He acknowledged the line could have been a bad line but he argues it's not his problem and he had action... The bet was taken and he wasn't taking shot. 5Dimes knows they made a mistake with the line and can show it was not fair odds. The argument comes in at how to handle it. Paying at the correct market odds is the resolution. It doesn't change that the error stings the player but 5dimes isn't canceling bets on stale lines or stealing wins.

Well maybe it should be Bill answering the Chat for Tony the next time he gets called... That is a very thought filled response.

It's easy to understand the two sides, but when it comes across as it horrendous as it did, only a hard core understanding of bookmaking is going to suffice.... I disagree with anyone who says this is "obvious" shot taking... As Shari said, you find a line in Tennis, you take it.. I've found live odds in football that I've clicked "during" the possession that I hoped would go through at the better price.. Should they refund me my money everytime I get a price the books don't like because I happened to get the sunny side of the mouse click while the Kick is Blocked/QB is sacked?

Oh wait.. MAYBE I should contact the book and ask them:

"Excuse me Mr. Bookmaker, I received an awfully good line on the Packers just as they were blocking the Punt and scored a TD, but the bet did not go through until after the TD was actually scored... is it OK to receive that line... If not.. Please cancel my bet...Much Love.. BBiz"

I'm sorry but If you're going to make bad lines, then how about you just don't offer them... Don't defend this "automated" BS... It's as Automated as you want it to be.. If you are going to offer this service, then it YOU that should take responsibility to make sure the service is offered correctly... NOT the other way around...

I know just a little bit about programming, and this "internet" thing... and I've heard there are even people that know how to program "code" to notice any sort of peculiar betting, or any sort of "shot taking", EVEN.. Get this, when there are MANY wagers happening at the SAME TIME...

Obviously the people that are defending 5D must think that that they are still putting the wagers in a Black Leger book... I'm here to tell you... Technology has arrived my friends... It NO longer takes days to figure these things out... Just a few bells and whistles in the programming and a couple of intelligent monkeys to hit the keys... Honest!

To top it off 5D staff are acting like a bunch of donkeys...

Like I said previously... Good for them... They are "RIGHT"... They are WINNERS... Good job 5Dimes and those who want to be on the "Right" side... They've just closed 20 account in the meanwhile... and lost potential for about another 100+ a week...

**shari91** · 09-14-10, 03:45 AM

The part that really made me happy about Bill's response is the fact that there IS a standard for how offshore books should handle these situations when they arise. Some of the posters in this thread were quite adamant that the OP should have had all of his bets cancelled for his 'obvious shot taking' and maybe even have his account closed. Whether someone was taking a shot or not, it's nice to know that there is some precedent for when the onus is shifted from the bettor to the book as to who is responsible for action on that line in the first place. If all of us knew what lines should be in these tiny markets then I'd think our phones would be ringing with Vegas offering us jobs as linesmakers.

**LostBankroll** · 09-14-10, 03:58 AM

At the end of the day, SBR is still 100% behind 5dimes. 5dimes wont lose a cent because of this thread and its a shame. Only way 5dimes will learn to sharpen their shit up is if they are downgraded to A- or B+. They may offer up the best props,lines and prices on games, but when shit like this happens all to often it isnt a mistake, more like common practice. Muthafuk SBR for taking a soft stance on this. Thread gets to 11 pages before anybody at SBR had the balls to reply in here. God Damn shame.

**unde0087** · 09-14-10, 04:09 AM

The funniest thing about when situations like this happen is if the bet was a loser for the player than no one hears about it because the book takes the money, it is only in the case of the player winning then it becomes a problem because the book doesn't want to pay. Typical panzy ass offshore books. If they can screw you then it is okay but when you catch them with their pants down then all of a sudden you are dishonest player and get threatened like this player has. Its a joke

Then are these books held to the same standard when they mess up grading a ticket? I don't know how many times I have logged in to an account of mine only to find that a winner was graded as a loser. Did they fix that for me? sure didn't, they wouldn't have changed it if I didn't bitch. But then the player is called out on something like this. Maybe he knew maybe he didn't but still I don't have much sympathy for books doing everything they can to take our money especially not if they treat a player like this jackass did.

**jjgold** · 09-14-10, 04:54 AM

I tried calling Tony a few times and he was afraid for an interview

**Dark Horse** · 09-14-10, 05:17 AM

Bill, maybe it would be helpful if SBR published, as a sticky at the top of the page, the industry standards and rules. Then people could just quickly look up something like this, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. It could include a list of brief definitions, as well as links to where the topic was discussed earlier. It could even include a list of books who agree to operate by those rules.

**Meyhem** · 09-14-10, 05:20 AM

**** this cunt

**sportscash** · 09-14-10, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by Meyhem

**** this cunt

**MadTiger** · 09-14-10, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by GiveMeaBJ

It's clear what happened here. The original poster took some shots on some bad odds. Tony made the situation worse by being a dick. Had Tony not gotten so fired up and tried to calmly talk about it this wouldn't be up here. All it would have took was, "Hi, Eric, I'm Tony the GM. I noticed you had two bets in particular that were bad lines due to human error. Your top 20 bet should not have been 20 to 1. It should have been 2 to 1. Your 425 to 1 bet should have been 42.5 to 1. At 5dimes we do not appreciate people who try to take shots at our erroneous lines. I need to know if this is intentional or if you may have not realized our mistake?" Eric: "No, I thought the bets were just good odds for me. I didn't know they were bad lines." Tony: "Ok, sir. As stated in 5dimes rules we reserve the right to cancel any play in which our line posted was erroneous. These two plays fall under that category. In the future be more aware when betting these lines that seem to good to be true. If you continue to bet bad lines we will consider you a shot-taker and dishonest customer who we do not want to continue buissness with. If you have any questions about lines please contact one of our customer service people. Are we on the same page?" Eric: "Yes" Tony: "Ok, sir let me open up your account for you and we will grade these plays as wins under the correct odds. Thank you for understanding our mistake." That is all it would have taken to keep this a minimal issue.

Example of great customer service.

GiveMeABJ should give seminars.

Nominated, and pointed.

**raydog** · 09-14-10, 05:26 AM

better bizness... betting a golfer who is ranked in the top 7 in the world at 425/1 to win a tourney is flat out "shot taking" no ifs, ands or buts about it pal. especially coming from a guy who admittedly makes a lot of golf bets. nobody cares about some bullshit posted on twitter.

sure, things are much more technological these days, but when you see a bad line, its human error that entered it. the program does what its been programmed to do after that. so yeah, the automated line changes help to avoid problems with overbetting limits...its a good thing.

in this one case,, you simply will not convince me that the guy didnt realize the 425/1 line was waayyy off and would probably get cancelled the 20/1 line was way off and he threw max bets at it...

unde, do you really think that the books should be financially punished every time human error puts up a bad line? i mean, you realize when you bet at a bad line, you are trying to steal??? dont you think thieves deserve to be punished? so yes, you take a shot at a bad line and it loses, you deserve to lose that money...

unfortunately, this is all too common in gambling and ill be blatantly honest about why it happens....gamblers lose...the bottom line is very few gamblers at all are winners... therefor when they see a chance to get money from the books, they jump on it... for some reason they feel they are "owed" something from the book and see no problem with attempting to steal...its the way it is...you can debate it all you want, but the fact is, you take a shot at a shit line and you are attempting to steal. harsh way to look at it, yes, but very true.

**jjgold** · 09-14-10, 05:39 AM

Hold on I just re-read original post

This kid got fukked

Tony took a shot at him, too bad he will not get on phone with me

**jjgold** · 09-14-10, 05:45 AM

My Bad....

WTF I am afraid to call them now, I swear I might pass out because I am screaming too much

Stay tuned

**shari91** · 09-14-10, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by jjgold

Hold on I just re-read original post

This kid got fukked

Tony took a shot at him, too bad he will not get on phone with me

**Ace_of_Spades** · 09-14-10, 06:21 AM

I don't like the way Tony handles things, he's quite over the top and clearly has no customer service skills. For that alone, the book should be downgraded. The dude thinks he is god. You just cannot speak to people the way he does and be able to get way with it.

**McDeere** · 09-14-10, 06:27 AM

oh my God ! i cant believe that such an A+ rated book can post silly sort of excuse to their customer

**LostBankroll** · 09-14-10, 06:34 AM

jj is bluffing, 5dimes will remain A+. jj personally travels to Costa Rica to pick up RebateWager and 5dimes SBR advertisment checks.

**jjgold** · 09-14-10, 07:17 AM

Lol

**AimingHigh** · 09-14-10, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by Bill Dozer

The policy for bad lines that are not caught before game time, which SBR helped set as standard, is for the book to pay at the top end of correct market odds. That's what happened here. As said in that thread, You can't blame the player for being upset and sharing his experience. He argues that there really isn't a way for players to determine if a golf line is bad because there isn't a market for it. No other books offer the lines 5Dimes does and he can't spot a gross error in golf and something like High School football. He points out the bet was pending for a long time and 5D didn't catch it until it was in play. Unfortunately books like 5D and Pinnacle with unique markets have these errors once in a while. It's possible to have bad lines and the players not realize it. I don't label this player as a shot taker and he's not a market maker either so he may not realize the odds to place in top 3 are almost the same. He acknowledged the line could have been a bad line but he argues it's not his problem and he had action... The bet was taken and he wasn't taking shot. 5Dimes knows they made a mistake with the line and can show it was not fair odds. The argument comes in at how to handle it. Paying at the correct market odds is the resolution. It doesn't change that the error stings the player but 5dimes isn't canceling bets on stale lines or stealing wins.

Surely not all of the statements in bold can be true of one bet?

If there's genuinely no market for something, how can a book know what correct market odds are when they (a) show the line was mistaken, and (b) pay out at top end fair market odds?

If there is a market for something so that the book can do (a) and (b), then the player is wrong to argue that he can't determine if the bet is bad because there's no market.

**Halifax** · 09-14-10, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by raydog

better bizness... betting a golfer who is ranked in the top 7 in the world at 425/1 to win a tourney is flat out "shot taking" no ifs, ands or buts about it pal. especially coming from a guy who admittedly makes a lot of golf bets. nobody cares about some bullshit posted on twitter.

sure, things are much more technological these days, but when you see a bad line, its human error that entered it. the program does what its been programmed to do after that. so yeah, the automated line changes help to avoid problems with overbetting limits...its a good thing.

in this one case,, you simply will not convince me that the guy didnt realize the 425/1 line was waayyy off and would probably get cancelled the 20/1 line was way off and he threw max bets at it...

unde, do you really think that the books should be financially punished every time human error puts up a bad line? i mean, you realize when you bet at a bad line, you are trying to steal??? dont you think thieves deserve to be punished? so yes, you take a shot at a bad line and it loses, you deserve to lose that money...

unfortunately, this is all too common in gambling and ill be blatantly honest about why it happens....gamblers lose...the bottom line is very few gamblers at all are winners... therefor when they see a chance to get money from the books, they jump on it... for some reason they feel they are "owed" something from the book and see no problem with attempting to steal...its the way it is...you can debate it all you want, but the fact is, you take a shot at a shit line and you are attempting to steal. harsh way to look at it, yes, but very true.

Raydog has basically nailed it with his recent posts.

------------------

One thing I will add ...

The original poster claimed/claims that he did not know that the 20-1 Top 20 Finish was a "bad line", and uses his not knowing as one of the reasons why he thinks his bet should stand.

However, the fact is, whether or not he realized it was a bad line is irrelevant in determining whether the 20-1 bet should be modified or cancelled. If the 20-1 odds constituted a bad line, then the bet should have been modified/cancelled, no matter if the original poster knew it was a bad line or not.

I have had my own issues with 5 Dimes over the years, but looking at the overall situation here, I can't fault them for modifying the 20-1 odds. It certainly would have been "cleaner" if they would have noticed this earlier, and cancelled the bet before the tournament started, but unfortunately it didn't play out that way.

**Roxxyfish** · 09-14-10, 07:41 AM

I am a loyal SBR Forum user, but one thing is for shure the SBR rating system is not good, as i am from Germany I am palying with the some of the big European and British books, I play for example with BETSSON and BETFRED and PADDYPOWERthese three are excellent books with excelelnt customer service and lightning fast payouts I always have my withdrawals within 24 hours, how come that this books are rated B- ???? thats a freakin joke I also have accounts with nearly all A and A+ rated US Books here , they all fine,no problems for me so far , but those three books i talk about all have deserved a better rating than B-

**shari91** · 09-14-10, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by Dark Horse

Bill, maybe it would be helpful if SBR published, as a sticky at the top of the page, the industry standards and rules. Then people could just quickly look up something like this, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. It could include a list of brief definitions, as well as links to where the topic was discussed earlier. It could even include a list of books who agree to operate by those rules.

If nothing else comes out of this thread, and it doesn't look like it will since SBR apparently had assisted in resolving this issue before the thread was even started (and I admit that the fact that this wasn't made clear in the original post is now bugging me a bit), I hope this suggestion from Dark Horse is at least considered for the forum. Especially now when more people will be signing up with an offshore book for the first time if only to become an SBR Pro.

Considering the number of posts in here advising the OP to submit a complaint to SBR (I suggested this myself) and the number of people who were bashing SBR for their perceived unwillingness to become involved in this issue because of their affiliation with 5Dimes, this thread most likely wouldn't have hit 3 pages if those standards and agreements were made visible for all to see. We would've seen a few 'you're a thieving shot taker' or 'sorry bro, tony's a dick and it's crappy luck that they only paid you on the BetFair odds but those are the policies stickied above' but that would've been it because there wouldn't have been much argument to be had. And I think this would hold true whether you're on the side of Tony taking a shot or of the poster taking a shot. Bettor beware on both sides but at least everyone would know what the end result would most likely be if/when the line was declared 'bad'.

Just my opinion anyway.

**jackpot269** · 09-14-10, 07:47 AM

If this happens on a one time occurrence with a player with multiple bets(over time) it would be hard for me to think it was shot-taking. My question is what if the golfer that the poster played had not of been in 3rd place, lets say last place would Tony have wanted to talk then?

**jjgold** · 09-14-10, 07:49 AM

5 Dimes is not 1/10 the book paddy power is. Paddy has unreal customer support as do many Euro books.

I would never compare a Euro books with USA Type books.

Euro in a class by themselves when it comes to online bookmaking.

**blackbeSSt** · 09-14-10, 07:52 AM

so lemme get this straight, are the lines for everything at 5dimes entered by human fingers or is it all computerized?

**Dark Horse** · 09-14-10, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by jackpot269

If this happens on a one time occurrence with a player with multiple bets(over time) it would be hard for me to think it was shot-taking. My question is what if the golfer that the poster played had not of been in 3rd place, lets say last place would Tony have wanted to talk then?

You're only about the tenth person to bring this up.

The bet was paid at a fair market price. It won, in other words. There was no cheating by the book. If the player had been in last place, the bet would have lost.

**MonkeyF0cker** · 09-14-10, 08:02 AM

If these books were regulated like the books in Vegas, they'd be forced to pay. Unfortunately, they aren't. Every bookmaker in the world has access to their exposure on a side. There is absolutely no excuse that a bet should ever be modified after the event has started and certainly not two days later.

Did the player know that the odds were off? Perhaps. But if you book it, you pay it. It's really not fair to a bettor if the odds are adjusted after the fact. The bet may have been substantially different at alternative odds. Or it may not have been made at all.

The big question is in situations like this: Did anyone bet the other side?

What happens to their wagers? Why don't they get their exposure reduced? If someone bet $220 (or whatever) to win $10, they should get $198 back. How often does that occur? Never.

It should never be the player's fault when the product YOU are offering is faulty.

**davidchong** · 09-14-10, 08:06 AM

lollllll

Originally posted by LostBankroll

jj is bluffing, 5dimes will remain A+. jj personally travels to Costa Rica to pick up RebateWager and 5dimes SBR advertisment checks.

**andywend** · 09-14-10, 08:24 AM

All you need to know about this entire thread:

The OP is playing dumb and knows full well that when he bet Watney to finish in the top 20 at 20-1, he knew the line was bad and was hoping 5Dimes wouldn't notice it.

When the line adjusted from 20-1 down to 15-1 and then down to 10-1, it was a computer program doing the adjusting and NOT a live person. The program could only assume that the 20-1 was accurate as entered and adjusted accordingly.

The mistake finally being noticed on the last day of the tournament was an oversight on the part of 5 Dimes because they offer so many different prop bets that sometimes a mistake like this goes unnoticed far longer than it should.

After reading the chat with the OP refusing to answer Tony's questions about what the fair price should be and trying to change the subject, it is clear that the OP is clearly a shot taker and knew full well he was taking said shot.

Finally, 5 Dimes is so successful NOT because of Tony but in spite of him. If you are a long-term losing gambler, he welcomes your business. However, if you know what you're doing, he acts like you are ROBBING HIM.

Tony cut my betting limits on 4 different occassions and even disabled my account from betting on horses. When I asked 5Dimes to disable the casino from my account, they refused.

5 Dimes should NOT be rated A+ as that top rating should be reserved for books that are willing to take on all bettors like Greek, Bookmaker and Pinnacle. Since 5 Dimes REFUSES to offer reasonable limits to sharp gamblers, they should be rated "B" at best.

**TBone101** · 09-14-10, 08:55 AM

I'm Glad i read this thread.

There is no way in hell i'm going to put any money into 5Dimes.

No Way.

**sharpcat** · 09-14-10, 09:53 AM

5dimes is solid this guy took a shot at a very bad line and got caught it does not matter if he knew the true value of the line or not although I am sure he was fully aware that this was a bad line and is only upset because he thought he got away with it.

Solid advice here do not take shots at bad lines you are only fukking yourself by allowing the book an opportunity to freeroll you if you win bet gets canceled if you lose you lose.