Your opinion on recurring fraud issue

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  • fixxer
    SBR MVP
    • 09-13-05
    • 1877

    #71
    IMHO there is difference between multi accounts and fraud accounts, and they should be handled different.

    If somebody signs up an account for a friend, and uses it for betting is a different case from if someone signs up with his "poker nick" as his name (as it was in a similar case not long ago) to get a referral and a first deposit bonus from a betting office.

    In the first case, the multi account is backed by an existing person, who (hopefully) allowed the real bettor to use his identity.. If he cannot be connected to another person with 100% evidence, it is a valid account, it doesn't matter who gives the tips (friend, tout, a holy person, a coin flip, etc...).
    The bookie must honor all bonuses and winnings if there is no 100% evidence.

    If there is, they should cancel all bonus, all winnings from bonuses, but pay out the 2/3-rd of the remaining balance. The bets were made by a valid legal entity, so his bets must be honored, still he should be punished by losing all money which he wasn't entitled to, and 1/3 of his winnings from deposited money.

    This how bookies are incented to get multi-accounters as fast as they can, because if they win, they still win, only the 2/3 of the normal winnings, but still a bookie can lose a lot this way too if they cannot exclude a "winner" earlier.

    In the second case, the account's holder is banned from an office, or already has an existing account.
    He opens another account by fouling the signup system, and the account is only backed by a non-existing person (the poker nick) - so nobody, no legal entity. If somebody opens a second account for himself, the handling of the case should be this one too, as he no longer counts as a valid legal entity with this bookmaker....

    The best solution is IMHO, to pay back the HALF of the LAST deposited ammount (-any "real" handling fees) to the depositor, and confiscate all winnings from both deposits and bonuses.

    The bookie won't get a full "free ride", they only win the half of players deposit, they have to refund half of the deposit.
    The fraudster deserves to lose half his money and all winnings, as he tried to make a fraud (and there wasn't any legal entity behind the account!), but why only half? Because if a bookie didn't ban his account prior his withdrawal request, the bookie is somewhat responsible too.
    If a bookie notices the multi account before a withdrawal request, than all money can be confiscated.

    If the bettor would made a lot of deposits, and would only won from the last one, to only give back the half of his last deposit would be a good solution to punish him for trying to fraud a bookie.
    And what about players, who just lose with a fraud account? They would have lost anyways - yes, unfortunately it's something like a free ride for a bookie -, so the half deposit back is only valid for winning players, who'd get caught during the withdrawal process...but the fact that the bookie is responsible for not excluding him earlier, must cost the bookie half of his winnings from the player - the half of the deposited money.
    This solution would incent the bookies to close fraud accounts as fast as they can, because they would get all the money from the fraud attempt, not only half of it.

    I know it's not a perfect solution, but better than:
    1, Confiscating all the money, bonus and winnings (bookie takes no responsibility for their error, and gets a free ride at all cases),
    2, Giving back all the deposited money (free ride for fraudsters)

    +
    An interesting story which is connected to this topic:

    The latest breaking UK, US, world, business and sport news from The Times and The Sunday Times. Go beyond today's headlines with in-depth analysis and comment.


    Short version: Rich guy lost a lot money at William Hill, self-exluded himself after contacted the support, and closed his account.
    A little later, he wanted to bet again, opened another account, lost a lot money again, than sued William Hill to give him back his money, as the bookie didn't prevent him from signing up.
    He lost in the court.
    Last edited by fixxer; 10-28-09, 04:25 AM.
    Comment
    • Lucas
      SBR MVP
      • 12-20-05
      • 1062

      #72
      i think that instead of to pay 66.6666% or 50% of fraudster balance or deposit they should pay 63.4% and 50.234%
      those are the exact numbers made from scientists, that were given to me

      i personally suggest to pay only 45+PI^2% to those who use the same ISP and (12+microgaming random generator(0..1))% to those who come from the same city maybe even county

      seriously, there should not be fuzzy logic involved, this thread had to be locked after tomcowley's post, SBR has to follow his suggestions and bookies who can not follow it have to get lower grade and players have to be warned
      Comment
      • fixxer
        SBR MVP
        • 09-13-05
        • 1877

        #73
        The whole meaning of my post was, that fraudsters and multi-acc.-ers should be handled differently, and there should be a solution, which incents bookies too.
        It wasn't a rocket science:

        1, Multi-acc: Bonus+winnings from it confiscated, and 2/3 of the remaining balance paid out
        2, Fraudsters: 50% of the last deposit paid out, any more money confiscated.
        Comment
        • Lucas
          SBR MVP
          • 12-20-05
          • 1062

          #74
          why? fraudsters should not be paid. NEVER. but there is no way to reveal them - any hard steps to reveal and punish fraudster will cause that also innocent people who buy or share picks, who are unlucky enough to share IP, address or computer etc., will be harmed

          i understand that you offer compromise, but it is not a good solution

          yes, your logic actually IS used - like the tax that we all must pay while buying CD or MP3 player because some are stealing data, but this is used because state has monopoly of law

          online gambling fortunatelly has no regulation, so there can be fairness. the good bookies, who do not try to steal MUST be rewarded with highest ranks and MUST get most customers and therefore they WILL make most money even with fraudsters, because hopefully they will get most action, they will have balanced position /if bonuses will end one day and pinnacle is bringing hope/
          Comment
          • fixxer
            SBR MVP
            • 09-13-05
            • 1877

            #75
            In my solution, the fraudster is not a winner by any means - he only loses less if the bookie wants a free play on him, or loses all if the bookie closes his account before a withdrawal request.
            This way the bookie is incented to get fraudsters, but not to have any free plays on anybody, which is a bookie's way to fraud bettors...

            "online gambling fortunatelly has no regulation" -> this is not true.
            All bookies have to follow the laws of the country their operation based on.
            Yes, a "WTFisit" country's laws means nothing.....but for example England based bookies must follow the laws of England, and players can turn to English court in the end...
            Comment
            • fixxer
              SBR MVP
              • 09-13-05
              • 1877

              #76
              "but there is no way to reveal them"

              Again, I disagree....true, there is no sure way to get all fraudsters.
              Still, for an example, look at Bwin's policy:
              90% of their account closings happen after the withdrawal request.
              They simply make a security check at that time, not before, this how they have free play on the bettor until he makes a withdrawal request.
              If we expect from a bettor, to not to fraud a bookie (aka have a free play /from bonus for example/ on a bookie), let's expect from a bookie, to not to have a free play - on anybody.

              This is also important when something goes bad, and a not-fraudster gets in the security's net.
              If they "sign" to the suspicious player soon after he signs up or makes a suspicious move, that can make a lot of issues avoided.
              Comment
              • Lucas
                SBR MVP
                • 12-20-05
                • 1062

                #77
                the laws are useless even in the UK, the transaction costs (to fill some formal complaints, wait, pay lawyer etc) are prohibitive

                de iure regulation means nothing, bookies do whaever they want even in UK. Bet365, ladbrokes... we saw it on forums

                but no STATE regulation is good i am trying to say, it is simply perfect

                where this is missing, autoregulation can come, and this is an issue for SBR, their rating has to show the best bookies who do not try gimmicks and thus attract more customers to them. we need effective AUTOregulation - this issue is a perfect mark how to see good and bad bookie. as was said abouve, bookie who does not want to take action on his odds, the one with poor linesmaking, is a bad bookie.

                jesus christ, bwin has maybe 100 linesmakers, but what the idiots are doing there? you can go there anytime and you see arbs. arbs that are there for minutes, sometimes hours. they should be broke already many times and pinny has to rule the world with -101 lines.

                bookies that are trying to steal should not get high ranks
                Comment
                • Peeig
                  SBR Wise Guy
                  • 02-06-08
                  • 567

                  #78
                  Justin, bottom line is, you should stop doing this
                  Comment
                  • mgoblue313
                    SBR High Roller
                    • 10-15-09
                    • 140

                    #79
                    Dumb! If the book is going to allow you to spend money(which they dont have a problem taking) then they need to pay you when you win. Just because you win and you win alot should not mean they can just boot you and steal all of your earnings. They make enough money to be able to pay you and if they are going to not allow you to bet because you win then they should not allow the people that lose their ass to bet either. I want to know what book that is that is B.S. Fkin garbage. Fk them. Garbage Iam fkn pissed.
                    Comment
                    • evo34
                      SBR MVP
                      • 11-09-08
                      • 1032

                      #80
                      Originally posted by chemist
                      The T&Cs can state that accounts accessed from the same IP address are treated as being controlled by the same person.

                      The original post specifically said, "He's good with IP addresses." I.e., there would be no proof of control of multiple accounts by the same person. For this and various other reasons raised in the thread, the book would have no right to withhold payment.
                      Comment
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