Williamhill refusing to pay my money.

**lonnie55** · 04-22-18, 04:27 AM

UEFA

I'd bet 10k they never even heard of that team.

Besides, Alay Osh is one of the most ridiculous match-fixers in AFC Cup history, and the match you placed your bets on was fixed, too. So it's legitimate they do investigations.

The problem I have with those investigations is that
- it takes way too long and it's not transparent which parties are involved
- books freeze the wagered amount, not only the potential winnings. Occasionally it's the deposit AKA your own money they are blocking for more than a year

It's bullshit the UEFA is involved. They should just void the winnings and give you back the wager. It's so easy to identify fixed matches afterwards, it should never take longer than one or two weeks.

**Paulius777** · 04-22-18, 05:16 AM

Well it is obvious that they are not doing any investigation if they say UEFA is involved here.

Also it seems that only williamhill is doing this investigation regarding this match, while other bookmakers (Bet365 etc) settled this event without any "investigations".

How can they have a right to hold my money if they have no evidence that this match might be fixed? It seems that they could get rid of every unwanted player with such "probable suspicious betting".

**lonnie55** · 04-22-18, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by Paulius777

How can they have a right to hold my money if they have no evidence...

Sue them if you think they don't. It's the only way to find out.

**Paulius777** · 04-22-18, 06:08 AM

I would like to hear SBR team opinion regarding this matter first.

**cashin81** · 04-22-18, 06:50 AM

**moojoo** · 04-22-18, 08:03 AM

Much of this situations lately. Do they have in their terms anything about this kind of situations.
They all should add in terms if this situation occure,they should pay you stake amonut. Now would they pay you out all outstanding balance except winnings and close/suspend account,or just let you continuo using account awaiting winning or to be declared fixed and void winnings.
They should make rule regarding fixing matches,will they void winnings or even take stake and winnings cause you try to rob them.

**moojoo** · 04-22-18, 08:04 AM

p.s can you tell us what was your pick and for how much money.

**Optional** · 04-22-18, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Paulius777

I would like to hear SBR team opinion regarding this matter first.

The agreement that WilliamHill follow says they must not tell you anything apart from an investigation is happening. The reason for this is partly to not give information to match fixers, and also to avoid as much as possible information defaming involved parties being released.

They report suspicious betting to http://www.eu-ssa.org/ and if ESSA agree it is suspicious the relevant governing body is informed and may also conduct and investigation. So I am guessing the CS person who replied was just guessing the UEFA and police agencies thing. WilliamHill themselves would not know who has become involved or anything about the investigation itself unless asked for extra info by ESSA. And you can be 100% sure no CS agent has the slightest clue either.

There may have been no suspicious betting detected at Bet365 as to why one has reported and frozen the market whilst they other did not.

There really is not much you can do but wait. Quick investigations seem to take 2 or 3 months. If it goes further 9-12 months is normal. Quite a few take more than a year. But not many much longer than about 15 months.

The good news is that almost everyone ends up being paid in the end. If that is any consolation.

If you simply won't believe WilliamHill is awaiting an investigation to be completed, you can contact ESSA to ask. They will tell you if no investigation is going on.

SBR won't be able to change things for you, or get the info from ESSA for you.

But if you still want to take it further and live outside the UK, you can submit a complaint to their Gibraltar regulator here: https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/remote-gambling

**Paulius777** · 04-22-18, 08:21 AM

I've placed about 900-1000 eur on over and home team win. All outcomes odds were around 1.85.

My Williamhill account was closed after this bet, before it I were active member for about 6 months (betting every day similar amounts of money). No betting limits/restrictions were applied.

The day Willhill decided to close my account I've received this explanation:

I write to inform you that your William Hill account is currently suspended and your funds temporarily retained following bet(s) which were placed on FC Alai v FC Dordoi Bishkek ,as this match is now under investigation by the relevant sporting body due to suspicious play and betting activity.

Whilst I appreciate you may feel frustrated with this matter, our actions have been undertaken in strict accordance with the terms and conditions you agreed to upon registration:

11.4 If:

11.4.1 we have reasonable grounds to believe that You have participated in or have been connected with any form of Prohibited Practice (and the basis of our belief shall include the use by us (and by our gaming partners and our other suppliers) of any fraud, cheating and collusion detection practices which are used in the gambling and gaming industry at the relevant time)

then, (including in connection with any suspension and/or termination of Your Account) we shall have the right, in respect of Your Account (and/or any other account held by You with a William Hill group company) to withhold the whole or part of the balance and/or recover from the account the amount of any deposits, pay-outs, bonuses or winnings which have been affected by or are in any way attributable to any of the event(s) contemplated in this paragraph 11.4. The rights set out in this paragraph 11.4 are without prejudice to any other rights (including any common law rights) that we may have against You, whether under the Terms of Use or otherwise

Should the sporting body in question respond and advise us that this match wasn't manipulated then we will review your case again with a view to settling your bets and releasing your funds. However until it is confirmed that this match was played legitimately, we will remain unwilling to settle your bets or lift the sanctions which have been placed on your account.

**Paulius777** · 04-22-18, 08:28 AM

Thank you. I have contacted ESSA on my own.

**Optional** · 04-22-18, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by Paulius777

I've placed about 900-1000 eur on over and home team win. All outcomes odds were around 1.85.

My Williamhill account was closed after this bet, before it I were active member for about 6 months (betting every day similar amounts of money). No betting limits/restrictions were applied.

The day Willhill decided to close my account I've received this explanation:

I write to inform you that your William Hill account is currently suspended and your funds temporarily retained following bet(s) which were placed on FC Alai v FC Dordoi Bishkek ,as this match is now under investigation by the relevant sporting body due to suspicious play and betting activity.

Whilst I appreciate you may feel frustrated with this matter, our actions have been undertaken in strict accordance with the terms and conditions you agreed to upon registration:

11.4 If:

11.4.1 we have reasonable grounds to believe that You have participated in or have been connected with any form of Prohibited Practice (and the basis of our belief shall include the use by us (and by our gaming partners and our other suppliers) of any fraud, cheating and collusion detection practices which are used in the gambling and gaming industry at the relevant time)

then, (including in connection with any suspension and/or termination of Your Account) we shall have the right, in respect of Your Account (and/or any other account held by You with a William Hill group company) to withhold the whole or part of the balance and/or recover from the account the amount of any deposits, pay-outs, bonuses or winnings which have been affected by or are in any way attributable to any of the event(s) contemplated in this paragraph 11.4. The rights set out in this paragraph 11.4 are without prejudice to any other rights (including any common law rights) that we may have against You, whether under the Terms of Use or otherwise

Should the sporting body in question respond and advise us that this match wasn't manipulated then we will review your case again with a view to settling your bets and releasing your funds. However until it is confirmed that this match was played legitimately, we will remain unwilling to settle your bets or lift the sanctions which have been placed on your account.

One of your bets must have been among those flagged as suspicious for the account to have been suspended as well.

You're still very likely to be paid in the end anyway though. From previous experience.

If I was you, I'd just send a monthly email to WH asking if the investigation is over yet to make sure someone keeps looking at it regularly.

**cashin81** · 04-22-18, 12:19 PM

what happens if you are on the losing side?

**lonnie55** · 04-22-18, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by cashin81

what happens if you are on the losing side?

I've never never seen a complaint from a player whose account got locked when he lost with an allegedly rigged match. Does anybody know such a case?

**cashin81** · 04-22-18, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by lonnie55

I've never never seen a complaint from a player whose account got locked when he lost with an allegedly rigged match. Does anybody know such a case?

account locked is not what I meant,

I mean if a match is proven to be fixed. Does the book pay back all the losing bets after 1year or whatever?

**semibluff** · 04-22-18, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by lonnie55

I've never never seen a complaint from a player whose account got locked when he lost with an allegedly rigged match. Does anybody know such a case?

Originally posted by cashin81

account locked is not what I meant,

I mean if a match is proven to be fixed. Does the book pay back all the losing bets after 1year or whatever?

I seriously doubt there are losing bets but technically if a book has suspended an event which is later voided, then all stakes would be refunded. What people still don't seem to realise is these books know their business. They know what level of wagers to expect on a particular event. If they don't expect to see a single 4-digit take-out bet on a game and they see just 3 - all on the same outcome - it's going to draw attention. Big books talk to each other, (I know because it was 1 of my jobs to phone William Hills and Ladbrokes every day when I worked for Corals 30+ years ago), so once 1 of the big UK books has seen something suspicious you can guarantee the others will know about it very quickly. If all books are taking bets on the same outcome it will automatically be reported to the sporting authorities.

Multiple people betting a 4-figure take-out on this game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GDB5MCWQ2s
...is going to raise red flags. What are the odds they're all new accounts?

**slayer14** · 04-22-18, 04:28 PM

Match was a classic

**lonnie55** · 04-22-18, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by semibluff

I seriously doubt there are losing bets

What do you mean? Of course there are losing bets. The dirty pre-market money went on away team to push live odds on home team and/or money went on first half ahc away team and consequently pulled down full time odds as well. Either way there were copycats who followed the money and placed their bets on full time away team, so there was definitely a considerable amount of losing money, especially on EU books as the match-fixers placed most of their bets with Asian books and betting exchanges for sure.

**HeeeHAWWWW** · 04-23-18, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by semibluff

Big books talk to each other, (I know because it was 1 of my jobs to phone William Hills and Ladbrokes every day when I worked for Corals 30+ years ago).....

Yep. Nowadays they use groupchats in instant messaging software, so the info spreads really quickly.

**jtoler** · 04-23-18, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by semibluff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GDB5MCWQ2s
...is going to raise red flags. What are the odds they're all new accounts?

I dont follow soccer but they way the goalie in green kept coming out to meet the ball like that seemed amateurish and his attempts to protect the goal seemed weak, am I right or wrong? If right why wouldnt he mask it better.

**nfhl09** · 04-23-18, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by cashin81

account locked is not what I meant,

I mean if a match is proven to be fixed. Does the book pay back all the losing bets after 1year or whatever?

Literrally just happened to me last night.
Placed a wager on Santa tecla vs ad mestapan basketball. The under looked good so I took it. All of a sudden it's the last 3 minutes and they need 25 points to push it over. Teams are seperated by 15 points so no reason to foul. There must have been like 15 fouls called. It was clearly fixed. Spoke to bodog. They pretty much said tough luck. I'm now scared to bet on any amateur leagues cause of this b.s.

**moojoo** · 04-23-18, 08:06 AM

Happens all the time.

**lonnie55** · 04-23-18, 09:06 AM

What happens all the time?

**moojoo** · 04-23-18, 09:19 AM

Basketball to score tons of points in last few minutes or to score very few in last 4-5 min. Somebody who bet a lot live should know that,not necessary its fixed,just bad luck.

**slayer14** · 04-23-18, 10:06 AM

William hill never refund money if games is fixed

**semibluff** · 04-23-18, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by jtoler

I dont follow soccer but they way the goalie in green kept coming out to meet the ball like that seemed amateurish and his attempts to protect the goal seemed weak, am I right or wrong? If right why wouldnt he mask it better.

I think you're mistaking this for 'professional' sport. This is Kyrgyzstan, (no offence to Kyrgyzstan).

**Paulius777** · 04-24-18, 03:41 AM

Either way, if a game was fixed how could I possibly know that? I am from Lithuania so it is not logical that I could be somehow involved with two Kyrgyzstan teams.

Do they have a right to take away all users money who have made atleast one bet in this match?

**lonnie55** · 04-24-18, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by Paulius777

Do they have a right to take away all users money who have made atleast one bet in this match?

post #4

**Optional** · 04-24-18, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by Paulius777

Either way, if a game was fixed how could I possibly know that? I am from Lithuania so it is not logical that I could be somehow involved with two Kyrgyzstan teams.

Do they have a right to take away all users money who have made atleast one bet in this match?

Don't try that excuse on them. As it sounds like a guilty person clutching at straws.

How could you possibly know? If someone approached you and asked you to place bets for their syndicate is just one way you could know.

If you bet the same way as a match fixer and then the match looks fixed, how could they possibly not think you may have known something is another way to look at it. (not saying you did bet like a match fixer, but it sounds like you might have if the account is locked)

And how does it matter if you are in Lithuania or Kyrgyzstan or New York? You saying that is what is not logical.

If you are innocent you will be very unlucky if not paid in the end. And coming up with tenuous arguments will go against your credibility more then help. Just sound like you expect to be paid, as any genuine bettor would, and stick with just asking them when it will happen each month is your best strategy. And maybe ask their regulator to look into why it is taking so long, so WH know you are serious and not letting go of it as much as anything.

**lonnie55** · 04-24-18, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by Optional

Don't try that excuse on them. As it sounds like a guilty person clutching at straws.

How could you possibly know? If someone approached you and asked you to place bets for their syndicate is just one way you could know.

If you bet the same way as a match fixer and then the match looks fixed, how could they possibly not think you may have known something is another way to look at it. (not saying you did bet like a match fixer, but it sounds like you might have if the account is locked)

And how does it matter if you are in Lithuania or Kyrgyzstan or New York? You saying that is what is not logical.

If you are innocent you will be very unlucky if not paid in the end. And coming up with tenuous arguments will go against your credibility more then help. Just sound like you expect to be paid, as any genuine bettor would, and stick with just asking them when it will happen each month is your best strategy. And maybe ask their regulator to look into why it is taking so long, so WH know you are serious and not letting go of it as much as anything.

OP said he placed his bets on home win at odds around 1.85

If he were involved he would be stupid to bet on those odds because match-fixers put their money on away team (first half) so he could have get much better odds at kickoff (around @4+).

Anyway, it's very unlikey match-fixers put their money on EU books. They had a wide range of Asian books with decent limits and no fear of not getting paid afterwards.

It's about probabilities. What are the odds that OP is involved in this case? The chance that he knew he bet on a fixed match are not very high as well because home win @1.85 was not a good spot.

So there are only two right decisions in my view:
- either they void the bets within 1 or 2 weeks after the match; no need to investigate 1+ year
- or they pay him because they appreciate his business and want to retain him as a customer

**Optional** · 04-24-18, 08:38 AM

I'm not thinking he was a syndicate runner either really. But if he happens to deposit with a method known to be used by them, bet for more than the statistical average, and maybe did it at around the same time they or other books had people doing the same thing he is in a tough place whatever he knew or did not know. Best for him to play it smart and not look even more like the stereotype.

And I definitely agree the system is broken.

The fact I am so sure almost everyone gets paid in the end shows how the current process is either ineffective or too wide ranging in holding funds.

I don't really have the answer though.