[cyberinvestor]

This is the topic that I'm sorry to I say I have not figured out yet. So when you bet on the game with -110 odds, it is vise to bet $5000 to win $4500 so the payout will be $9500 and that should go without showing any ID-s or filling out any forms. What I don't understand is that per ticket? Do they consider one ticket as transaction? What if you have 3 tickets that all won $4500 . Do they look those as separate transactions or as one? Now if you are foreigner with no SSN, are still ok to get $9500 payout ? My question is - do they ask you ID anyway? (One can have a valid ID but not SSN ). It strikes to me that if payout is less than $10 000 in sports-books you are ok o cash out no matter if you are from Brazil or South -Korea. Then again is it per ticket or do they sum all your tickets up? In race books do they start asking ID-s and filling out forms on payouts bigger than $600 all the time , even if it is equal odds bet? Many questions but it would nice to get it cleared out by Las Vegas local who knows how things work.

If you wager $5000 to win $4500 and are trying to avoid the CTR, you would have to cash your $9,500 ticket, walk away and come back again and cash the next $9,500. Any cash transaction over $10,000 for one stop at the sportsbook window will engage a CTR (IRS reporting).

As a foreigner you are ok to not only get the $9,500 if you don't have an SSN but you could also cash over $10,000 in tickets. They would file a CTR on you as well just using your passport or resident ID. If you cash over $10,000 they will ask for ID.

In the racebook if your bet pays over $600 and was at 300-1 odds or greater, you will have to show your ID but this time, you will have to pay taxes as well. Unlike a CTR which is just to track money laundering with no tax impliction. CTR is for transactions $10,000 or more. W-2G is for a payout of $600 or more if the odds were 300-1 or greater for the wager. It is possible to get a W-2G and a CTR in one transaction if say you won a superfecta that paid $10,001 for a $2 wager.

Just remember W2-G means TAXES. It is collected on a sports or race payout that hits at odds of 300-1 or more AND a payout of $600 or more. If only one of the criteria is met, no W2-G.

CTR means no tax implications, just tracking of a large cash transaction.

[cyberinvestor]

So would you have been screwed should you had 2 of those tickets? Both single straight bets . Logic tells me that $10 000 limit has to be per transaction , meaning per ticket. If that was not the case one can cash one ticket out today and another the next day. As I understand as long it is less than $10 000 sportsbook ( casino) does not give a flying fuk if you are from Fidzi. This topic is interesting for those who are not from Vegas and having limited experience of playing there. I researched in all over the internet. $10 000 limit runs through it leaving lot's of unanswered questions. So therefore it is good topic to talk about. Race book $600 limit also runs through the web , yet leaving unclear if that is the case with equal odds bets or only those where odds are bigger than 300:1?

If you went up to the window with one thousand tickets worth $10 each, you would have to file a CTR because the combined transaction at the window is $10,000 or more.

Try to think this way, if whatever you are doing is going to have the sportsbook give you $10,000 or more in one visit to the window then CTR!

[cyberinvestor]

wow there is so much conflicting info out there I don't think I've ever seen anything like this. Can someone who REALLY REALLY knows, not just thinks, tell me what would happen in the following example: I want to wager on 3 NBA games for $5000 each game. Say I win all 3. My winnings will be $15K my total tickets would be $30K. Could I just do that all in 3 separate transactions, all in one day, so that each would be under $10,000. (If that is even really the magic number)

Yes, if you did three separate transactions all in one day which would mean every trip to the window you were paid less than $10,000 in cash, you would be fine.

However be sure to note that if the sportsbook feels you are doing this regularly enough and purposely avoiding the IRS reporting, they can and will file a SAR (suspicious activity report) on you. If you have enough of those filed on you then you will get a call from the IRS and/or the Secret Service.

I can't say it enough guys, the IRS reporting is no big deal. Just have the CTR filed on you. It means nothing and will sit on a computer file never to be looked in 99.9999999% of cases.

I have a lot of experience in these matters on behalf of my clients and myself.

[cyberinvestor]

Wow, it's amazing that: a: there are so many different answers, and b: all the ones who answered swears they are correct...lmao We should place a wager on who in this thread really is correct, and i'm starting to think you are ALL wrong in one way or another. I have no clue the answer to this guys question, but goddamn maybe a few of you should research to be sure of your answer before posting shit and confusing everyone. the first 3 or so DIFFERENT answers should have been the damn red flag...seriously.

I am not here to pat my own back nor sell anyone that I am a genius but I can assure everyone here if you check with your CPA and your attorney you will find that everything I have stated is 100% correct.

I am not some college kid here wondering about cashing my first $10,000 plus ticket in Vegas. I have had dozens of CTR's filed on me at Nevada sportsbooks and hundreds of W2-G's filed just in the past few years. I have an accountant who handles all my gambling finances on a monthly basis (not H+R Block) and who keeps me abreast of all the tax laws and changes due to the implictations it will have on me because of the amount I wager in any given year. I am an attorney and have had clients in trouble because of structuring and other tax problems.

While there is no such thing as a know it all on taxes and law, I have a lot of real life experience that I would venture to comfortably say only a handful of people, if any, on these board have.

[Counterfeit Cash]

I am not here to pat my own back nor sell anyone that I am a genius but I can assure everyone here if you check with your CPA and your attorney you will find that everything I have stated is 100% correct.

I am not some college kid here wondering about cashing my first $10,000 plus ticket in Vegas. I have had dozens of CTR's filed on me at Nevada sportsbooks and hundreds of W2-G's filed just in the past few years. I have an accountant who handles all my gambling finances on a monthly basis (not H+R Block) and who keeps me abreast of all the tax laws and changes due to the implictations it will have on me because of the amount I wager in any given year. I am an attorney and have had clients in trouble because of structuring and other tax problems.

While there is no such thing as a know it all on taxes and law, I have a lot of real life experience that I would venture to comfortably say only a handful of people, if any, on these board have.

I'll take your word for it. I'll simply file the taxes should I ever score a big winner and avoid all this uncertain BS

simple as that.

[aman86]

I am not here to pat my own back nor sell anyone that I am a genius but I can assure everyone here if you check with your CPA and your attorney you will find that everything I have stated is 100% correct.

I am not some college kid here wondering about cashing my first $10,000 plus ticket in Vegas. I have had dozens of CTR's filed on me at Nevada sportsbooks and hundreds of W2-G's filed just in the past few years. I have an accountant who handles all my gambling finances on a monthly basis (not H+R Block) and who keeps me abreast of all the tax laws and changes due to the implictations it will have on me because of the amount I wager in any given year. I am an attorney and have had clients in trouble because of structuring and other tax problems.

While there is no such thing as a know it all on taxes and law, I have a lot of real life experience that I would venture to comfortably say only a handful of people, if any, on these board have.

sounds good thanks for your information... so i guess the morale is, it is unknown of which payout amount a W2-G will need to be filed for a standard sports bet... however for anyone paranoid just keep the payout amount less than $10g's and you will not have to do anything

[aman86]

"they will file a mtl for transactions over 5k and ctrc-n for transactions over 10k."


what is this mtl by the way?

[cyberinvestor]

I'll take your word for it. I'll simply file the taxes should I ever score a big winner and avoid all this uncertain BS simple as that.

It is pretty easy. Most people are paranoid for no reason. If you win over $10,000 in the sportsbook, good for you. Cash the ticket, have the CTR filed on you, get a W2-G if necessary and keep all your losing tickets and win/loss statements to offset any W2-G's filed. It is very easy. People make gaming taxes and concerns a much bigger issue than they really are.

[cyberinvestor]

sounds good thanks for your information... so i guess the morale is, it is unknown of which payout amount a W2-G will need to be filed for a standard sports bet... however for anyone paranoid just keep the payout amount less than $10g's and you will not have to do anything

There is no W2-G for a standard sports bet. Tomorrow you could go into the sportsbook (and assuming they let you) place a $50,000 five team parlay paying 20-1. You would win $1,000,000. You could go to the window, give them your ticket and they could pay you $1,050,000 in cash. The only thing that will get filed is a CTR because you are getting cash for over $10,000. The CTR again has no tax implications and is just intended to track large cash transactions. The sportsbook would not give you a W2-G because while your payout was over $600 it did not meet the other criteria to be issued a W2-G which is a payout of 300-1 or great. Your odds payout was only 20-1.

It's not about the amount you bet or win to trigger tax reporting (W2-G) it is about the odds for the bet you placed and assuming it is over $600.

For the CTR reporting, if it is over $10,000 the book has to file the CTR.

[cyberinvestor]

"they will file a mtl for transactions over 5k and ctrc-n for transactions over 10k." what is this mtl by the way?

MTL is a "Multiple Transaction Log"

Multiple Transaction Log

• MTL
– every pit has an MTL log
– whenever player exceeds $3,000 (used to be $2,500) of a given type transaction, all known information is entered in log

• player’s name (if known)

• player’s description

• employees are expected to review log at start of shift


MTL Transactions

• Chip redemption (with evidence of gaming)

• Chip redemption (no evidence of gaming)

• Chip purchase

• Front money or safekeeping deposit


MTL Transactions

• Marker payment in cash

• Redemption of foreign chips ($1,000 threshold)

• Payoff of winning wager in cash

• Other cash transaction


MTL's are not kept on $5,000 transactions but rather $3,000 or greater transactions. There was a law put into place in 1985 that set this limit at $2,500. The law was amended in 1997 to make this limit $3,000. MTL's are not filed with the IRS. They are kept within the casino to track activity and are only used by the IRS or other law enforcement if someone is suspected of funny business (structuing, laundering, etc.).

[scott235]

Yes, if you did three separate transactions all in one day which would mean every trip to the window you were paid less than $10,000 in cash, you would be fine.

However be sure to note that if the sportsbook feels you are doing this regularly enough and purposely avoiding the IRS reporting, they can and will file a SAR (suspicious activity report) on you. If you have enough of those filed on you then you will get a call from the IRS and/or the Secret Service.

I can't say it enough guys, the IRS reporting is no big deal. Just have the CTR filed on you. It means nothing and will sit on a computer file never to be looked in 99.9999999% of cases.

I have a lot of experience in these matters on behalf of my clients and myself.

IMHO, just treat your winning tickets as cash. If you are in vegas long term, I believe you have 30 days to turn them in at you leisure, spread your money around, and you should be ok.

[scott235]

Thank you CI, very good stuff.

[beatbk]

Last week...i came to HILTON SuperBook to place a wager...bet 3K on preseason NFL game...i said i dont have a player card and they still let me buy the ticket.

After i win...i go cash out my tix total is more than 5700...the cashier ask for my ID?i thought WTF everyone said if under 10K we dont have to show any information...but i still give them my id....cause this is first time i play in VEGAS SPORTSBOOK....they copy my id and give me back with all the cash

So now my question is...

Everytime we cash out a sportsbook tix they always ask for ID or PLAYER CARD or wat?even $500 or 5K?is it that's how they want to check limit 10K of cash transaction every 24 hours of 1 person?or if another casino dont ask ID for any cashout sportsbook tix under 10K so which casino is that?

Cause after i read all the thread in this forum in my mind always is if we cash out under 10k per tix we dont have to fill our any form or ID etc....

And the last thing is how do they track on 10K per 24 hours...make a sample i place a wager of 4K when i cash out total of that tix is almost 8K so thats mean on that day all my transaction total is almost 8K or almost 12 K?i dont understand how they track on it.

So please help me....i am very new of sportbook world thanks

[Scooter]

If they paid you over 10k in a 24 hour casino day period they will ask for ID to write up a CTR (Currency/Cash Transaction Report).
(They count the total cash they've paid out to you).

If your total for the day hadn't reached that point, you could've refused the ID - they are tracking you in case you end up at the end of the 24 hour period having cashed out more than 10k cash.

If you refuse to give the ID and you haven't cashed out over 10k in a 24 hour casino day period, they write "Refusal" on their internal tracking form and write a description such as "White T-shirt, Raiders baseball cap, approx. 30 yrs. old".

You can ask the clerk or whoever you dealt with why they're asking for ID. If they insist, speak to a supervisor if you don't want to give ID and ask why they're insisting on it.

If they still insist, you can call the NGC - Nevada Gaming Commision. The number is listed in the phone book - you can speak to a Gaming Agent, and he'll come over to the casino if you want and he may resolve it in which case you'll get paid without showing ID. He may be able to resolve it over the phone, but usually they come to the casino and talk to you and talk to the supervisor.

"Last week...i came to HILTON SuperBook to place a wager...bet 3K on preseason NFL game...i said i dont have a player card and they still let me buy the ticket."

If you're referring to the Las Vegas Hilton, they have the best comp rate in town - $1 comp dollar for $220 wagered.
So you would've gotten almost $14 comp dollars if you'd used a Player's Card which you can use in their restaurants, gift shop, hotel, etc.

[Scooter]

Yes, if you did three separate transactions all in one day which would mean every trip to the window you were paid less than $10,000 in cash, you would be fine.

However be sure to note that if the sportsbook feels you are doing this regularly enough and purposely avoiding the IRS reporting, they can and will file a SAR (suspicious activity report) on you. If you have enough of those filed on you then you will get a call from the IRS and/or the Secret Service.

I can't say it enough guys, the IRS reporting is no big deal. Just have the CTR filed on you. It means nothing and will sit on a computer file never to be looked in 99.9999999% of cases.

I have a lot of experience in these matters on behalf of my clients and myself.

cyberinvestor - You're usually 100% accurate in your info, but I disagree with you on this.
If they are keeping track of a player, which they try to do for a $9500 payout, returning to the window and cashing out over $500 for a total of over 10k cash paid out by them within the same 24 hour casino day period will certainly get a CTR.
It doesn't matter if it's 1 payout from the cage or 3 payouts within a 24 hour casino day period - if they're aware that one has received more than 10k cash payout within a 24 hour casino day period, a CTR is issued.

Also, if their MTL on a player reveals more than 10k cash payout within a 24 hour casino day period, a CTR is issued.
I always thought that the main reason they keep the MTL is to be able to write a CTR when 10k/24 hours is reached.

[beatbk]

I just call NEVADA GAMING COMISSION and talk to GAMING AGENT...after i tell him my story...he said: The cashier have the Rights to ask my ID if they want when i cash out....too bad..just stay away from troubles then

[timmyboy34243]

putting up 5k of your own $$$ and nearly triggering a report for winning seems to sukk. you would think it would be if you WON more the 10k, not merely cashing a ticket valued at 10k. oh well, who said anything was fair.......

[Scooter]

beatbk - Did you cash your winning ticket at the sportsbook?
Or was the sportsbook closed and you cashed it at the main casino cage (cashier)?

[beatbk]

yes....they closed and i cash at the CAGE...is it different?

[Scooter]

yes....they closed and i cash at the CAGE...is it different?

Yes.

The sportsbook is used to cashing sportsbook tickets - I doubt they would've asked you for ID.

The cage is much stricter with their practices.
They are much more difficult to deal with than the sportsbook when cashing a sportsbook ticket.
If possible, if the book is closed come back the next day.
Or you could try at the cage, and if they ask for ID, tell them you don't have it with you and to give you the ticket back.


"I just call NEVADA GAMING COMISSION and talk to GAMING AGENT...after i tell him my story...he said: The cashier have the Rights to ask my ID if they want when i cash out....too bad..just stay away from troubles then"

This is why I wrote that the agent "may" be able to resolve it.
Many of the agents are idiots.
For a sportsbook ticket that's not more than 10k, there's no excuse for them to ask for ID.
Incidentally, Gaming Agents are law enforcement officers with the power to arrest - if you have any law enforcement problems you would probably not want to deal with them.

Some cages will give you a hard time about ID - the Wynn is known for this at their cage and their sportsbook beginning at 3k.

Next time try cashing at the sportsbook.
I doubt you'll have a problem there - especially at the LV Hilton Sportsbook.

I've never had a problem cashing sportsbook tickets at the sportsbooks but have had hassles of various kinds sometimes when trying to cash them at the cage (same with trying to cash sportsbook chips).

[beatbk]

ok so thanks alot...i'm very new ab deal with vegas sportsbook...now i know the rule,and can u show me which one is easy for cash out ticket? Mirage? Harrah? Rio? etc...i really need your advice

P.S: even i gave them my ID but that's not a CTR or any kind of report right?cause they did not ask me sign anything...just copy and give me back with all cash

[Grits n' Gravy]

cyberinvestor - You're usually 100% accurate in your info, but I disagree with you on this.
If they are keeping track of a player, which they try to do for a $9500 payout, returning to the window and cashing out over $500 for a total of over 10k cash paid out by them within the same 24 hour casino day period will certainly get a CTR.
It doesn't matter if it's 1 payout from the cage or 3 payouts within a 24 hour casino day period - if they're aware that one has received more than 10k cash payout within a 24 hour casino day period, a CTR is issued.

Also, if their MTL on a player reveals more than 10k cash payout within a 24 hour casino day period, a CTR is issued.
I always thought that the main reason they keep the MTL is to be able to write a CTR when 10k/24 hours is reached.

MTL and CTRs all are part of Title 31. The threshold for MTL is 5000.01 in single and/or aggregate transactions in the gaming day in any part of the casino. For CTRs the same rules apply except the threshold is 10,000.01. All the major properties have fully linked tracking systems. Once you hit the thresholds you are logged automatically. Refusal to provide ID when asked will get you barred from the casino.

Cyberinvestor is almost spot on with everything he has posted with the exception of cashing a large amount of chips by breaking it down into smaller increments. It can be viewed as structuring and will get you red flagged with a SARC that will get passed along to IRS. Also Cyber, the 3k threshold was upped to 5k for MTLs in 2007 while the 10k threshold for SARC was lowered to 5k.

[Scooter]

ok so thanks alot...i'm very new ab deal with vegas sportsbook...now i know the rule,and can u show me which one is easy for cash out ticket? Mirage? Harrah? Rio? etc...i really need your advice

P.S: even i gave them my ID but that's not a CTR or any kind of report right?cause they did not ask me sign anything...just copy and give me back with all cash

If they did not pay you $10,001 or more in cash during a 24 hour casino day, it is not a CTR.
Shouldn't be a report of any kind sent to the US Government, if that's your concern.

According to cyberinvestor and Grits n' Gravy, the casino will do a MTL report, which is internal - stays within the casino and is not reported to a US Government agency.

I don't think you'll have a problem at the LV Hilton sportsbook re: them asking for ID.

If you want to try an experiment - call the NV Gaming Commision in another 8 hours or so and ask for a Gaming Agent (you did speak to an actual Gaming Agent and not the operator, correct?) , and explain what happened at the Hilton.
There's a good chance that a different agent will give you a different answer than the first agent did.

[Scooter]

ok so thanks alot...i'm very new ab deal with vegas sportsbook...now i know the rule,and can u show me which one is easy for cash out ticket? Mirage? Harrah? Rio? etc...i really need your advice

P.S: even i gave them my ID but that's not a CTR or any kind of report right?cause they did not ask me sign anything...just copy and give me back with all cash

If you're asked for ID and don't want to give it you can always say "No".

And you can always ask "Why?".

And then evaluate the alternatives, if there are any.

[beatbk]

i will try to call 1 more time.yes i did talk to gaming agent...do u know we can call them anytime 24/7 or they just work on normal business hour?thanks alot for ur advice...ill let u know when i talk to them again

[beatbk]

same...this time talk with a lady...she said sportsbook tix over 2500 they can ask to show ID....next time i will cash out at the sportsbook's windows and see wat they gonna do...

[Scooter]

i will try to call 1 more time.yes i did talk to gaming agent...do u know we can call them anytime 24/7 or they just work on normal business hour?thanks alot for ur advice...ill let u know when i talk to them again

They work 24/7.

[cyberinvestor]

MTL and CTRs all are part of Title 31. The threshold for MTL is 5000.01 in single and/or aggregate transactions in the gaming day in any part of the casino. For CTRs the same rules apply except the threshold is 10,000.01. All the major properties have fully linked tracking systems. Once you hit the thresholds you are logged automatically. Refusal to provide ID when asked will get you barred from the casino. Cyberinvestor is almost spot on with everything he has posted with the exception of cashing a large amount of chips by breaking it down into smaller increments. It can be viewed as structuring and will get you red flagged with a SARC that will get passed along to IRS. Also Cyber, the 3k threshold was upped to 5k for MTLs in 2007 while the 10k threshold for SARC was lowered to 5k.

I'll take almost spot on with everything (someone needs to explain this to my wife! ). I did not realize they made those changes in 2007. I can see why they would want the SARCs down to $5k. Too many games people were playing.

Thanks for the info today, lots of good discussion on this one and a topic everyone can benefit from!

[beatbk]

I'll take almost spot on with everything (someone needs to explain this to my wife! ). I did not realize they made those changes in 2007. I can see why they would want the SARCs down to $5k. Too many games people were playing.

Thanks for the info today, lots of good discussion on this one and a topic everyone can benefit from!

So that's mean everytime we cash out over 5K we have to show ID or Player Card?

[TheMoneyShot]

I don't know if I believe what everyone is typing? 2 Years ago I cashed my ticket at Mirage... to the right of me a dude dressed in an all white suit... even white shoes... LOL with shades on was cashing his ticket. (chewing gum too... I sh#$ you not).... the dude was a total runner for sure. I glanced out at his payout on the Register screen and it said $8,500.00. Then I took a look at him one more time... and he was staring me down. I watched his entire payout transaction... and it was pretty quick for dishing out that kind of money. He also had more than one ticket to cash... because it looked like he was holding 3-4 more. Perhaps wanted to be paid out at a later time or date?

I'm sticking to my theory that the cash out without being taxed on is $9,999.99. Because why didn't they draw up papers for him???

[Scooter]

Yes, if you did three separate transactions all in one day which would mean every trip to the window you were paid less than $10,000 in cash, you would be fine.

However be sure to note that if the sportsbook feels you are doing this regularly enough and purposely avoiding the IRS reporting, they can and will file a SAR (suspicious activity report) on you. If you have enough of those filed on you then you will get a call from the IRS and/or the Secret Service...


I have a lot of experience in these matters on behalf of my clients and myself.

cyberinvestor - If the aggregate cashout during a 24 hour casino day is more than 10k, a CTR will be written (provided the casino has been tracking the player and is aware of previous payouts which, combined with the current payout, total more than 10k) and the player will be asked to provide ID at that point.

[briedward]

I have a question regarding CTR within 24 hrs. Example: I bet 4K (original bet) on monday at 1 pm, and later that night I win another 4K (profit) from that bet. So my total is 8K (original bet + profit). In order to rollover the 8K into new bets, do I have to wait until tuesday after 1 pm to avoid CTR since the total transacted would be 4K + 8K = 12K (and therefore greater than 10K) ?

Or do they calculate it as 4K (original bet) + 4K (profits) which would be less than 10K (which would then result in no CTR if it's before 24hrs ?)

[RickySteve]

The latter.

[Mr. Teaser]

wow there is so much conflicting info out there I don't think I've ever seen anything like this.

Can someone who REALLY REALLY knows, not just thinks, tell me what would happen in the following example:

I want to wager on 3 NBA games for $5000 each game. Say I win all 3. My winnings will be $15K my total tickets would be $30K. Could I just do that all in 3 separate transactions, all in one day, so that each would be under $10,000. (If that is even really the magic number)

I can tell you from personal experience. Unless it has changed in the past 5 years if you COLLECT under 10k you are ok. It does not matter if it's one ticket or 20. If you collect anything over 10k the paperwork begins....and remember that's collecting that amount not winning that amount....

reading previous posts it looks like changes may have been made. If so split your tickets up and cash them on different days or have a friend cash one.

[Hareeba!]

I can tell you from personal experience. Unless it has changed in the past 5 years if you COLLECT under 10k you are ok. It does not matter if it's one ticket or 20. If you collect anything over 10k the tax paperwork begins....and remember that's collecting that amount not winning that amount....

reading previous posts it looks like changes may have been made. If so split your tickets up and cash them on different days or have a friend cash one.

Reporting of $10k+ transactions is something quite different from tax requirements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currenc...saction_report