Interesting question.
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Sunde God is omnipotent. You can't attempt to break down the mastery of his "methodology" with an anecdote. This isn't a gambling model.
IMO God meticulously crafted all of this in a way to lead humans to question his existence. Evolution is a God-created concept to keep humans off balance. Religion is a man-developed concept.
People pray for different reasons. For some, it's spiritually liberating. Others desire things. Some do it because their religion asks them to.Cause Sleep is the Cousin of DeathComment -
enough satire for meComment -
Right, as if any one of us egotistical fukktards are remotely important enough for God to give 2 squirts about. Just think where we'd be if we had never eaten animal flesh. The Earth wouldn't be as fukked up as it is today, that's for certain, and we definitely wouldn't be this worked up over a deity.Comment -
what did we accomplish hereComment -
That's up to you. It's a discussion. I took a good amount of perspective from this thread.
Not always about the concrete.
Sometimes it's funner living in the abstract.Cause Sleep is the Cousin of DeathComment -
Wow, really. Where did you get your statistics from? I pulled this from the first google search stating that nearly 80% of all college students believe in God. So where did your 5% come from?I.....I don't even know where to start. I hate to have to say this, but you give me the awful impression of having never read a book against your side ever.
If you respond back I'd be more than happy to give you a complete and detailed response to each point as I love enlightening people to humanism/atheism/science. But for now here's some very simple errors and assumptions you've made:
1. Essentially everyone that doesn't understand evolution believes it is as follows: Either it was luck, or God did it. Wrong...evolution is not "luck" whatsoever. We have a very detailed understanding as to why and how humanity emerged as it did: evolution by natural selection (which is, by definition, NON-random).
First I was not trying to put together organized facts supporting my argument but rather just throwing out some common questions to get it off my chest. However, I will address your side accordingly. You say that natural selection is by definition not random, which I would agree. However, there is not any fossil record of a structure "evolving" or in the presence of. Instead, you have several timelines of different living organisms through fossil records and we fill in the blanks between those timelines with an evolution "theory". If you actually do some real research, you will realize there is not any fossil records of intermediates of humanoid fossil remains, but as stated before just different timelines. Scientist to this day have never put any type of DNA or genetic match together showing where humans and chimps diverged from a common ancestor. All proposals have been rejected. All we know is both became present on earth from 5-8 million years ago. But again there is not any intermediate fossil records of the two that match genetically or by DNA.
2. You absolutely cannot apply any of newton's laws outside this universe. Hence using those to annihilate the possibility of something from nothing is quite literally non-logical. (Here I would recommend the brilliant physicist Laurence Krauss' book: a universe from nothing).
Newton's law was just an example but not an argument. I see how you conveniently avoided my question surrounding where did the first particle of matter 'evolve' from? At that time when there was nothing, meaning absolute nothing, where did the first particle of matter or anti-matter come from? One thing that both believers in God and non-believers will agree upon, is at one time there was nothing. I am simply asking you to show me how nothing became something? Should be simple.
3. The ghost argument you present isn't even really worth addressing. But seeing as you believe in the walking dead, I don't think you exactly ooze of credibility/sanity.
Sure, call me crazy that will help your argument. However, I can assure you that I have seen a real ghost and it is a life changing experience. I guess millions of others that have seen the same thing are just "crazy". We must have global hysteria happening just like those that saw the resurrected Christ.
annnddd just for fun, here's my favourite statistic and a quote that sums up religion quite well:
The correlation between IQ/Academic standing and atheism is beyond staggering. Well over 80% in America believe in God....how about in the Universities you wonder?? 5%....yes exactly, 5% of our brightest minds believe in this "supreme being" while 95% do not. Go figure.
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason".
Did you know that the most atheistic country in the world per capita is Sweden? They also happened to be ranked as the greatest place to live based on quality of life, they have extraordinarily low crime rates and they are remarkably advanced. Religion is hands down the most atrocious poison that humanity has ever fought. It has caused BILLIONS of deaths needlessly, and it only continues to do so.
Please please please, I beg you not to take a couple thousand year old book that promotes slavery, genocide and rape amongst MANY other things, as your guidance to life. Science, humanism and commitment to the Truth are what is important.
I will leave you with another thought just as another poster did previously. Simply look at the earth. It is perfect in size meaning if it was smaller or bigger out atmosphere would be impossible to sustain plant, animal, and human life. Just as the poster stated, we are the perfect distance from the sun. Further away, temperatures would be to low for life. If closer, it would be too hot. While asteroids and comets have hit earth in the past, "miraculously" nothing has hit earth in the lifespan of human life. I guess we are getting "lucky" again. The moon gives us just enough gravitational pull to keep tides in the ocean and keep our waters from being stagnate. I could keep going about just the earth and all the perfect scenarios that have played out for us humans but I will just say again we are "lucky".
And finally in response to your take on religion that has caused death, crime, and destruction. I would agree religion has been a battle ground for many throughout history. It has caused wars, death, and more awful things. However, those same awful actions were the result over the battle for freedom here in the United States at the time of the civil war. do you believe in freedom? There was a time when many did not and those differences in opinions causes some of the greatest bloodshed our country has ever seen. So something as important as religion is bound to cause problems, when you mix the interpretations and beliefs of human beings. That still does not disapprove it's authenticity.Comment -
^^^Really?!?
Too lazy to type a well formed response...please someone else put him in his placeComment -
The 1st part of my argument was not captured in the last post. My original post was not an organized effort but more less just to get some things off my chest. However, I will address your arguments.
In response to natural selection and evolution. Please show me where there is any fossil evidence of a humanoid in the process of "evolving". We have fossil evidence showing timelines of humanoid creatures over the last 5-8 million years between humans and chimps. However, there is not any fossil evidence showing evolution in progress. Instead, scientist fill in the gaps within those timelines with an evolution "theory". Please don't make me give you the definition on a theory. Still, I will do you one better. Did you know that there is not any genetic or DNA evidence matching chimps/apes with human ancestors? That is the entire argument of evolution but science has never been able to prove either having a common ancestor by DNA evidence.
I agree you can not use Newton's law in our universe but it was used as an example. Notice how you did not answer my question at all. All scientist, atheist, believers, etc will agree that at the beginning of time there was nothing. I am asking how did the first particle of matter/anti-matter come into existence. You can not just say it was there and boom there was a big bang. You have to be able to explain the existence from non-existence? You never tackled that question.
Also, it is easy to say that I am crazy. However, I have seen a real ghost. Call it what you want, but it was a life changing experience for me personally. With simple research, you will notice the ghost phenomena is witness by millions each year. I guess you can call that global hysteria similar to those that bore witness to the resurrection of Christ?Comment -
I will address all the points, but I would like you to do the same with mine. I hope by the end of this one of us can help further the other's knowledge. This stuff really is the most interesting stuff humans can discuss.
First of all the statistic I gave was in reference to the PROFESSORS that teach there (IE. when our brightest minds are asked, they are by far in large atheist). What good is a statistic about the college student's opinions on it when in this day virtually anyone can at least get into university? In that case it would almost be a re-framing of the public opinion and not indicative of any correlation between intelligence and religious opinion.
Okay so let's tackle your points. The argument you make in post #42 is something called the teleological argument for god's existence. It's essentially an argument that claims our world/situation is too perfect to have occurred by chance, ergo a supreme being must have created it. All you have to do to overcome this argument is not allow yourself to be "time-freezed". What I mean by that, is too often we put far too much emphasis on the time in which we exist, when in reality, it is miniscule. Let's look at the history and future of this planet in a more objective view. Here's one of my favourite ways of showing how "perfect" this earth is: 99.9% of species...yes literally 99.9% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct. (http://nitro.biosci.arizona.edu/cour...xtinction.html)
We live on a planet in which some of land, some of the time is hospitable. There are natural disasters at every turn, and global warming is also becoming another problem (albeit maybe not as big as some claim). More importantly, our galaxy is on a collision course for Andromeda, and our days are limited.
Still think we're well designed?
We live on one planet in a solar system that has between 200-400 BILLION planets...and we are one galaxy of BILLIONS of others. Try and imagine how massive that actually is and how unbelievably insignificant we are. Religion, and more specifically Christianity, tries to give us a sense of being somehow special (IE we were all created in his vision). In reality we are 1 of trillions and trillions of planets, we are not well designed at all, there is evil all over our world, thousands and thousands of children dying everyday, countless suffering, manipulation, corruption and torture. And you want to talk about this all being well designed and lucky? Please.
Now then, your next point on evolution! Here I find it hilarious because in one of Dawkin's books, he has a chapter specifically dedicated to people who claim "it's just a theory"...and lo and behold that is exactly what you're saying. Did you know that gravity is also "just" a theory? Just because there is a one gap in a theory, it does not discredit it entirely. We share 99.8% of our DNA with chimpanzees...how can you explain that? The reason there are still chimps/apes is because we only share a common ancestor with them, and did not actually evolve out of them.
I do not for one second doubt your sincerity when you say you saw a ghost. I believe something happened to you as you have no reason to make it up. However here's what I say to it and I think it's pretty reasonable. What you're saying is called an argument from personal experience. It therefore does not hold much credibility by itself, and for good reason. People have been claiming to see ghosts/demons and the like for years with absolutely ZERO evidence of it. Ever. There was an experiment ran in the 70's I believe in which James Randi offered 1 million dollars to anyone who could show anything supernatural. In thirty years do you know how many times something non-scientific was shown? None. (http://www.skepdic.com/randi.html)
"All scientist, atheist, believers, etc will agree that at the beginning of time there was nothing".
No, not even close to true. There is huge debate as to whether there was an ultimate beginning and the only proof we have is that this universe may have had one. But that says nothing about big crunch theory and universes prior. The truth is I don't have an answer for you yet. Just as scientists 1000 years ago did not know that we revolved around the sun, and that storms were caused by low pressure systems, and that people were not witches but instead mentally retarded. The list goes on ad nauseum. Just because we don't know how the universe started for certain is NOT reason to accept the authority of a book with zero scientific backing. Go where the evidence leads you, and there is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" while our scientific understanding cannot yet grant us that information. Think for yourself and question everything. I look forward to your response and meant no disrespect throughout
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No sort of science can prove what happened in the beginning. Keep having "FAITH" in science as a way to explain genesisComment -
The idea that God is real because the earth is a perfect home to humans is one of the weakest arguments. Earth is perfect for us because we evolved on earth. Earth wasn't built for us, we were built from the earth.
We are what we are because of strength of gravity, levels of oxygen etc.Comment -
you have a lot of faith in those scientists huhComment -
And you have a lot of faith in what your environment taught you. Imagine you had been born in Africa or India. You would not believe in Jesus Christ or the Christian God. Doesn't that speak volumes to you? You believe in the deity that you do simply because you are a product of your environment.Comment -
Oh I apologize, I assumed since you didn't believe in what science preaches about the creation of the universe you believed in a supreme being. So you believe in what elfs, warlocks? We don't know if you don't tell us. If you don't believe in what science teaches what do you believe in?Comment -
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I was baptized, born, and raised Catholic. I went to Private Catholic schooling K-12. I never rebelled growing up... and you just felt pure when you were young. You weren't out to hurt or harm anyone. You just felt a "goodness" inside. That's the feeling I had. When you reach 35 years old... you go through a lot in your life... you experience hurt, pain, loss, and death. I grew up with this one girl who was a religious nerd so to speak... very intelligent girl. We still talk thru facebook. She's married and has 3 beautiful kids. She is still very holy and nothing ever bothers her. So, one would question... if you are more in tune with your faith... can you overcome a crucial loss in your life... unlike someone who isn't holy or has faith? The parameters are in place in a way... think about it. It's your own protocol in how you think. Your brain is the only thing that can make a decision. We as people... must see it to believe it (unfortunately.) No one has ever witnessed Jesus... (other than images in books published throughout the years) so we tend not to believe in him. But trust me... if he does return... I don't think you'd want to see him... because the scriptures claim if Jesus returns... it's Judgement Day for mankind. Which would be the end to everything.
I truly believe religion is goodness. Hate, jealousy, envy is Evil. Again, protocol. When your heart is pure... you feel good. When you feel hate... it's not the best of emotions. Judgement Day I feel is when too much Evil takes over... and cripples our own humanity. For example: Money, Greed, Power. Is it really necessary? High gas prices, low wages, to no work. It's your own decisions who make you... who you are today. We've all made mistakes. Did we all correct them? My feeling is... a person died on the cross for our sins... and he took the pain for our existence today. But, since we weren't there... no one will ever believe...Comment -
Meh, even if Jesus did come back today, nobody would believe it was him. I assume you've read Revelations, right? Now think about that ACTUALLY happening in modern society.Comment -
You cant mash someone else for having faith in something when what you believe in is not 100% foolproof. Once humans are in the equation and you don't know for certain then even science requires faithComment -
Guys, I think we might have a scientologist with us. I believe they use the word genesis in their crazy teachings. If you think the Mormons are nuts, you have to listen to these guys. So are you tom cruise?Comment -
Tell us how was Katy, you screwed some of the hottest chicks in Hollywood. Come on tell us.Comment -
Sprayboy, Yeh all respect here just a friendly debate to see different point of views.
"First of all the statistic I gave was in reference to the PROFESSORS that teach there (IE. when our brightest minds are asked, they are by far in large atheist). What good is a statistic about the college student's opinions on it when in this day virtually anyone can at least get into university? In that case it would almost be a re-framing of the public opinion and not indicative of any correlation between intelligence and religious opinion."
Again, your numbers are way off. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...GtVINw&cad=rja) There is the link to a Harvard professor that has conducted this research. In the 2nd paragraph, states that 35% of college professors believe without any doubt in god. Another 19% have doubts, but still believe in a god. That is over 50% of America's greatest minds.
"Okay so let's tackle your points. The argument you make in post #42 is something called the teleological argument for god's existence. It's essentially an argument that claims our world/situation is too perfect to have occurred by chance, ergo a supreme being must have created it. All you have to do to overcome this argument is not allow yourself to be "time-freezed". What I mean by that, is too often we put far too much emphasis on the time in which we exist, when in reality, it is miniscule. Let's look at the history and future of this planet in a more objective view. Here's one of my favourite ways of showing how "perfect" this earth is: 99.9% of species...yes literally 99.9% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct. (http://nitro.biosci.arizona.edu/cour...xtinction.html)
We live on a planet in which some of land, some of the time is hospitable. There are natural disasters at every turn, and global warming is also becoming another problem (albeit maybe not as big as some claim). More importantly, our galaxy is on a collision course for Andromeda, and our days are limited."
Good argument here. The points you make about 99.9% of life already being extinct is spot on. However, thinking about history. If we were a constantly evolving planet and have always been. Don't you think we would have some type of intelligent life throughout the history of our planet or some other similar type of human beings from an anatomy standpoint? Don't you think we would have fossil records of such?
"We live on one planet in a solar system that has between 200-400 BILLION planets...and we are one galaxy of BILLIONS of others. Try and imagine how massive that actually is and how unbelievably insignificant we are. Religion, and more specifically Christianity, tries to give us a sense of being somehow special (IE we were all created in his vision). In reality we are 1 of trillions and trillions of planets, we are not well designed at all, there is evil all over our world, thousands and thousands of children dying everyday, countless suffering, manipulation, corruption and torture. And you want to talk about this all being well designed and lucky? Please."
Ok I got two major problems with this argument. First, what we know about the remainder of the universe is very limited. Sure, we know that there are thousands of other planets and galaxies. However, we also assume that is an endless amount of planets and galaxies based on the pattern of our own galaxy. Still, there is no proof that there is an X number of galaxies outside of our own. Still, the first line of the Bible tells me that God created the heaven(s) and then the earth. So who am I to interpret how many heavens there are and what that means. Ok, I am getting off track with the Bible talk and much of the Bible has it's flaws as well. (Different debate). However, you mention that there is children dying everyday, suffering, and corruption in regards to God's plan of design. In my opinion we are getting into a debate of emotions that God has and not the existence of God. I was simply pointing out the factors that have to be in place for there to be existence and relate those factors to God. I understand the concern about torture and corruption. But that is more surrounding a debate about how God acts and not his true existence. This sounds more like a debate about deism? But for that to be so, you would be saying God exists??
""All scientist, atheist, believers, etc will agree that at the beginning of time there was nothing".
No, not even close to true. There is huge debate as to whether there was an ultimate beginning and the only proof we have is that this universe may have had one. But that says nothing about big crunch theory and universes prior. The truth is I don't have an answer for you yet. Just as scientists 1000 years ago did not know that we revolved around the sun, and that storms were caused by low pressure systems, and that people were not witches but instead mentally retarded. The list goes on ad nauseum. Just because we don't know how the universe started for certain is NOT reason to accept the authority of a book with zero scientific backing. Go where the evidence leads you, and there is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" while our scientific understanding cannot yet grant us that information."
Ok so I respect you saying that you do not necessarily have an answer. On counterpart, I can not explain to you how god created the universe. However, it is impossible to say that every life form has just always been here or indeed existed. There has to be a time of non-existence or there could not a creation of anything. In my opinion this is the biggest argument for a pro god vs. no god debate. I am not saying you have to believe in a book with 0 scientific backing but you also can not say with certainty that a supreme power initiated the creation of the universe. If you could, you would have to explain how abolute nothing was made into the particles that caused creation or led to it should I say. And I believe one poster suggested science has explained this, please elaborate. Please do not give me the Stephen Hawking explanation as has already been shredded by scientific debate. Hawking tried to explain the existence of anti-matter in today's world but this would not have worked in a world at the time of non-existence. Therefore, this is the part of the debate where nobody is going to be able to "prove or explain" with absolute certainty. It is just my personal opinion, that existence can not evolve from non-existence without the materials needed for creation. That along with many other factors leads me to believe in God. Now how God interacts with humans is an entirely different debate.
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No this was recent, I am not a scientist but yes they have a theory now about how something can come from nothing. It is relatively new and a theory. I had the same concerns as you. And yes it can't be proven, but yes they now have a theory that many scientists believe. Check it out.Comment
