1. #71
    daimoshokage
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    Fedor is


  2. #72
    Poppa Catfish
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    ha! and that right there is it in a nutshell. Perfectly fine to call the UFC's HW division dog shit, which truthfully it was, but Pride for whatever reason is beyond reproach.

    Oh and lots of that other stuff is just personal preference. Believe it or not but a lot of us like the actual fights, and think all that pageantry stuff would better be saved for ice skating.

  3. #73
    brooks85
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    haha jim rome just ripped fedor

  4. #74
    NickTheGrip
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    He is still top tier but can no longer overcome 30+ lbs weight difference against other elite fighters.

  5. #75
    Pabinator
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    I always thought he was highly over rated, HIGHLY

  6. #76
    lasker
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    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6...-needed-in-mma

    "The massive difference in these weights is very obvious. But what if I made you this comparison?

    The 55-pound weight advantage that Fedor Emelianenko conceded to Antonio Silva last night would be comparable to Quinton “Rampage” Jackson fighting Frankie Edgar.

    Yeah, wow.

    Now I realize that the percentage of weight isn’t the same between that potential matchup and the Fedor vs. Silva matchup, but the comparison is really just to help illustrate how ridiculous this 55-pound weight advantage really is....


    We wouldn’t expect Urijah Faber to fight Anderson Silva, so why do we expect Fedor Emelianenko to fight Antonio Silva?"

  7. #77
    Eccocide
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasker View Post
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6...-needed-in-mma

    " We wouldn’t expect Urijah Faber to fight Anderson Silva, so why do we expect Fedor Emelianenko to fight Antonio Silva?"
    Simple, because he choose to. He had all the choice in the world to drop down to 205lb. Theres a reason he stayed at HW - to take advantage of the slow lumbering guys who for most accounts arent as skilled as those at LHW. The problem is, the skill level at HW is starting to slowly catch up with the other weight classes and Fedor can no longer rely on the speed and technique that he used to to overcome just size.

  8. #78
    lasker
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    Of course, I just don't think it's fair to say Fedor was always hugely overrated when he was regularly facing and defeating fighters who outweighed him. In this case it was clear that the size played a huge factor. Bigfoot is skilled but certainly not more skilled than Fedor, but he is much much bigger and stronger. Couple that with his good skills and it was enough to beat Fedor. One cannot look at this fight and then scream "see, Fedor was always overrated!" like some people have been doing (similar to to some saying BJ Penn was overrated after his second loss to GSP).

  9. #79
    Eccocide
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasker View Post
    Of course, I just don't think it's fair to say Fedor was always hugely overrated when he was regularly facing and defeating fighters who outweighed him. In this case it was clear that the size played a huge factor. Bigfoot is skilled but certainly not more skilled than Fedor, but he is much much bigger and stronger. Couple that with his good skills and it was enough to beat Fedor. One cannot look at this fight and then scream "see, Fedor was always overrated!" like some people have been doing (similar to to some saying BJ Penn was overrated after his second loss to GSP).
    Problem is, Fedor fans want to have it both ways. When he beats bigger, less skilled guys its "OMG, the guy is a god" but when he loses to them its "Well he only lost because the guy he fought was too big". Sorry, it doesnt work that way. Yes he was regularly fighting ppl that outweighed him, but that was by design. His size and speed gave him a HUGE advantage against heavy, slow footed, and less skilled opponents. If you choose to fight in the HW division, its an equal playing field. I dont want to hear excuses that the other guy is too big and its not fair. If thats really the case then drop down to a weight class that you can easily make and test yourself against much more skilled opponents then whats out there at HW. And Silva's weight may have helped him in the fight, but he passed fedors guard like butter and I was thoroughly impressed by his skill, not his size.
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  10. #80
    sirchadwick1
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    This was another one of those instances where the combo of size + skill overcame pure skill. You'll probably see it again in the Fitch/Penn fight, but BJ is far from done. I really don't think Fedor should retire just yet, although he is obviously past his prime. There are some very legit HW's in Strikeforce and I think Bigfoot is one of them. To me it sounds like more fans are discrediting Silva (he's slow, but was too big), while bringing down Fedor (he's been overrated for years, getting old). Fedor is one of the greats and you can never take that away. I hope he gives it one more shot before officially stepping away. I think people just still have this mentality that Fedor should never lose for some reason. Now if he gets knocked out cold a couple fights in a row, maybe it's time.

  11. #81
    lasker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eccocide View Post
    Problem is, Fedor fans want to have it both ways. When he beats bigger, less skilled guys its "OMG, the guy is a god" but when he loses to them its "Well he only lost because the guy he fought was too big". Sorry, it doesnt work that way. Yes he was regularly fighting ppl that outweighed him, but that was by design. His size and speed gave him a HUGE advantage against heavy, slow footed, and less skilled opponents. If you choose to fight in the HW division, its an equal playing field. I dont want to hear excuses that the other guy is too big and its not fair. If thats really the case then drop down to a weight class that you can easily make and test yourself against much more skilled opponents then whats out there at HW. And Silva's weight may have helped him in the fight, but he passed fedors guard like butter and I was thoroughly impressed by his skill, not his size.
    When a fighter regularly beats fighters bigger and often much bigger than him, it's impressive. it is in no way inconsistent that when that fighter loses to opponents much bigger than him that size played a factor -- that's the whole reason it was impressive he was beating other bigger opponents to begin with. This is not "having it both ways" -- it's consistent with the premise that size makes a difference.

    If BJ Penn starts demolishing the welterweight division -- not that I think it will happen -- it will be far more impressive than his great run at lightweight. If he then loses to someone bigger than him after a series of wins, it will not be wrong or hypocritical for B.J. Penn fans to say that size played a role, just as it did in GSP's victory. It's cliched, but size does matter or else there wouldn't be weight classes. The fact that Fedor chose to fight at heavyweight against mainly larger opponents doesn't detract from his accomplishments, imo, it adds to them. Yes, many of the bigger guys are slower, but he also fought heavyweights at the top of their game like big nog and cro-cop who were not giants but would have likely beaten any light heavyweight at that time. So when he loses to someone outweighing him by 55 pounds who also has good skills, I don't see the how it's untrue to point out the size difference. Silva did NOT beat Fedor on skill alone, his size and strength together with his skills is what did it. I remember how much trouble Big Nog had with Bob Sapp even on the ground, and Sapp's ground skills compared to Big Nog's are laughable.

    I was also impressed with Silva's skill and I don't mean to detract from his amazing accomplishment, but nobody will ever convince me that he is more skilled than Fedor. I don't think that's what you're implying, but anyway, I think that if Silva was the same size as Fedor, Fedor would win this fight hands down. IMO passing the guard was impressive but also had a lot to do with size and strength and Fedor carrying the weight of a 285 pound man on top of him.
    Last edited by lasker; 02-14-11 at 06:25 PM.

  12. #82
    Poppa Catfish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eccocide View Post
    Problem is, Fedor fans want to have it both ways. When he beats bigger, less skilled guys its "OMG, the guy is a god" but when he loses to them its "Well he only lost because the guy he fought was too big". Sorry, it doesnt work that way. Yes he was regularly fighting ppl that outweighed him, but that was by design. His size and speed gave him a HUGE advantage against heavy, slow footed, and less skilled opponents. If you choose to fight in the HW division, its an equal playing field. I dont want to hear excuses that the other guy is too big and its not fair. If thats really the case then drop down to a weight class that you can easily make and test yourself against much more skilled opponents then whats out there at HW. And Silva's weight may have helped him in the fight, but he passed fedors guard like butter and I was thoroughly impressed by his skill, not his size.
    This, a thousand times this.

    I love how not only does the big fish get to swim in the small pond, but he gets extra credit for doing so. They turn around and tell us that it wasn't a pond, and in fact is an ocean.

  13. #83
    Eccocide
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasker View Post
    When a fighter regularly beats fighters bigger and often much bigger than him, it's impressive. it is in no way inconsistent that when that fighter loses to opponents much bigger than him that size played a factor -- that's the whole reason it was impressive he was beating other bigger opponents to begin with. This is not "having it both ways" -- it's consistent with the premise that size makes a difference.

    If BJ Penn starts demolishing the welterweight division -- not that I think it will happen -- it will be far more impressive than his great run at lightweight. If he then loses to someone bigger than him after a series of wins, it will not be wrong or hypocritical for B.J. Penn fans to say that size played a role, just as it did in GSP's victory. It's cliched, but size does matter or else there wouldn't be weight classes. The fact that Fedor chose to fight at heavyweight against mainly larger opponents doesn't detract from his accomplishments, it adds to them. So when he loses to someone outweighing him by 55 pounds, it's totally fair to point this out and actually hypocritical of Fedor's detractors not to.

    I was also impressed with Silva's skill, but nobody will ever convince me that he is more skilled than Fedor. I don't know if that's what you're implying, but if Silva was the same size this fight would not be a contest. Passing the guard had a lot to do with size and strength, and Fedor carrying the weight of a 285 pound man on top of him.
    I think you are missing a part of what I am getting at. He beat those larger heavyweights because the HW division largely lacked skill (not all but a lot of them). They arent as well-rounded, well-trained, or as versatile as the other divisons. There are many reasons for this, but for one, ppl of that size who were athletically gifted were often playing in other althletics, whether it be football, basketball, boxing, etc. MMA HW's who have actually been brought up in the martial arts is only starting to come around. The skill gap between HW and the other weight-classes was immense. BJ dominating at WW would be amazing because he would be undersized and fighting against guys with tremendous training, background and capability. Most of the HW fighters back in the day relied solely on size and strength, and maybe one discipline. There is no comparison to fighting up a weightclass in HW, to moving up from 155 to 170. The skill level is very narrow at those lower weight classes. In the HW divison, there are major descrepanies in skill. I'm not trying to take away from Fedor. He had a great run and did some impressive things. But the problem now is the skill level at HW is improving and the gap is closing. He can no longer overcome the size because the skill level of the HWs is catching up to him.

  14. #84
    lasker
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    No I totally agree that p4p most of the heavyweights were not as skilled as the lighter weights, but Fedor was winning against giants and super-skilled normal sized heavyweights alike. Guys like Big Nog and Cro-Cop, who I believe would have won against any LHW. People often diminish Fedor's wins against less skilled giants, but I think just Big Nog's huge struggle against Sapp in what was mostly a ground war shows me that size makes a huge difference on the ground. Giants like Hong Man Choi would give fits to a lot of far more skilled fighters at LHW just because of the incredible size advantage he would have. The fact that some huge fighters are less skilled does not mean that their size is easy to overcome, at least when the differential is great enough. So I personally consider Fedor's assault on the heavyweight division, giants and non-giants alike, to be the greatest winning streak in MMA history. Although Anderson Silva's streak in the UFC is up there too.

    I don't see what the problem is mentioning that weight played a huge factor in the outcome of the Bigfoot-Fedor fight. To me it's obvious that it was the deciding factor. Did Fedor choose to fight at heavyweight? Of course, and I respect him for it. They say that being the best at heavyweight means that you are the best fighter in the world, and in general I think that holds true (not talking about p4p of course). But his choice doesn't make it an even playing field imo; overcoming a significant size and weight and reach disadvantage is still as hard as ever.

    Anyway, you can take the last word on this, I don't want to keep going with the debate and will agree to just disagree
    Last edited by lasker; 02-14-11 at 06:41 PM.

  15. #85
    Kaladarus
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasker View Post
    No I totally agree that p4p most of the heavyweights were not as skilled as the lighter weights, but Fedor was winning against giants and super-skilled normal sized heavyweights alike. Guys like Big Nog and Cro-Cop, who I believe would have won against any LHW. People often diminish Fedor's wins against less skilled giants, but I think just Big Nog's huge struggle against Sapp in what was mostly a ground war shows me that size makes a huge difference on the ground. Giants like Hong Man Choi would give fits to a lot of far more skilled fighters at LHW just because of the incredible size advantage he would have. The fact that some huge fighters are less skilled does not mean that their size is easy to overcome, at least when the differential is great enough. So I personally consider Fedor's assault on the heavyweight division, giants and non-giants alike, to be the greatest winning streak in MMA history. Although Anderson Silva's streak in the UFC is up there too.

    I don't see what the problem is mentioning that weight played a huge factor in the outcome of the Bigfoot-Fedor fight. To me it's obvious that it was the deciding factor. Did Fedor choose to fight at heavyweight? Of course, and I respect him for it. They say that being the best at heavyweight means that you are the best fighter in the world, and in general I think that holds true. But his choice doesn't make it an even playing field imo; overcoming a significant size and weight and reach disadvantage is still as hard as ever.

    Anyway, you can take the last word on this, I don't want to keep going with the debate and will agree to just disagree
    Totally agree with you Lasker. I think some people say Fedor chose to fight at HW because the fighters were less skilled, but no one knows this. Deductively speaking this can only be true half the time since there is no data on this and it comes from opinion. Fedor could have just as easily chose to fight at HW to fight better competition. If he thought the LHW was too easy then it was an easy choice. Looking at the competition at LHW during Fedor's massive winning streak it should be a fair assumption to assume that Fedor would have dominated LHW if that's what he had wanted to do.

  16. #86
    brooks85
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    coker must be so happy

    fedor - "I rushed to declare my retirement. I will fight more. Possibly, I will return to the Heavyweight Grand-Prix. I am capable of having a few more fights. I didn't make any analysis yet on why I lost. I need to recover, I can't see very well yet."


    http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/2/15...-keep-fighting

  17. #87
    freelee
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooks85 View Post
    coker must be so happy

    fedor - "I rushed to declare my retirement. I will fight more. Possibly, I will return to the Heavyweight Grand-Prix. I am capable of having a few more fights. I didn't make any analysis yet on why I lost. I need to recover, I can't see very well yet."


    http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/2/15...-keep-fighting

    fedor vs Zulu II coming up

  18. #88
    gym rat
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    Sure Fedor was outweighed and it made a difference however I agree that Silva executed his game plan and won the fight with his skills. I thought the standup in first round was fairly even for the most part and I even gave Silva the first round as he dictated the pace and was walking Fedor back at times while landing a few heavy shots. This is MMA and Fedor did absolutely nothing to defend the takedown to begin round two. He just began the round with no thought of being taken down. Silva although much larger just put on a clinic on ground. He really made Fedor look amateurish while he was on top which was 90% of round. We have to look at skills exhibited and Silva in my opinion won ground and standup.

    We all know weight can play a part but in the heavyweight division superior skills will shine through. This is evidenced by Cain and Lesnar as well. Lesnar had about the same weight advantage as Silva yet his skills weren't as good as Cain's on fight night.

  19. #89
    lasker
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    Quote Originally Posted by gym rat View Post
    Sure Fedor was outweighed and it made a difference however I agree that Silva executed his game plan and won the fight with his skills. I thought the standup in first round was fairly even for the most part and I even gave Silva the first round as he dictated the pace and was walking Fedor back at times while landing a few heavy shots. This is MMA and Fedor did absolutely nothing to defend the takedown to begin round two. He just began the round with no thought of being taken down. Silva although much larger just put on a clinic on ground. He really made Fedor look amateurish while he was on top which was 90% of round. We have to look at skills exhibited and Silva in my opinion won ground and standup. We all know weight can play a part but in the heavyweight division superior skills will shine through. This is evidenced by Cain and Lesnar as well. Lesnar had about the same weight advantage as Silva yet his skills weren't as good as Cain's on fight night.
    Your point stands, and I definitely agree that Silva demonstrated great skills to win against Fedor, but I'll just point out that Lesnar did not have about the same weight advantage as Silva. Lesnar outweighed Cain by 20 pounds, not 55 pounds. Bigfoot had almost three times as big of a weight advantage over Fedor compared to Lesnar's weight advantage over Velasquez. Lesnar weighed in at 264 and Velasquez at 244, and unlike Bigfoot, Lesnar didn't cut any weight for that fight.

  20. #90
    Squareguy
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    Fedor could cut to 185 if he had a team of nutritionists and scientists working for him like the rest of the MMA elite.

    I stood next to him in person with my dad, and my dad who is 6'2 215 looked much bigger than him. It appeared to me that he had lost about 10 pounds of muscle, and replaced it with fat.

    To the people saying he is overrated...I guess every single heavy weight combative to ever live is overrated, because all the greats lose in the end.

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