The Yankees without Mariano Rivera is like _ without _

[antifoil]

whip is not a good stat because it still takes into account defense and luck. you can use the individual components and lose the defense factor to find the pitcher's truer value. and of course high strikeout pitchers can get away with a higher whip and contact pitchers.

[stevenash]

batted balls can't be skewed by walks and strikeouts because they aren't batted balls.

i am saying in a year where the pitcher is unlucky and has a higher babip, the strikeout rate will continue to keep his era down because they are balls not hit. i am not sure what you mean babip is used to measure hitting more than pitching because the general understanding is hitters have a better ability to determine where the ball goes than does a pitcher. which is why ichiro continues to have one over .330 or whatever it is each year.

robertson has him in WAR, fip, era, HR/9(i doubt robertson can repeat his .14 HR/9 though. that shit is crazy). the only thing he doesn't have him in is walk rate.

i do not talk intangibles because they are not measurable and generally the sample size is too small to make accurate judgements. in this instance we don't know how good david robertson would be in those situations because we don't have a good measure. so at best this is inconclusive. people are just guessing and using selective memory on positive outcomes. if you have found a way to predict intangibles in your handicapping you have found a holy grail.

David Robertson's career BABIP is .320 Mo's career BABIP is .262
David Robertson's career FIP is 2.76 Mo's career FIP is 2.75

Please stop talking.

[stevenash]

whip is not a good stat because it still takes into account defense and luck.

Robertson and Rivera play for the same team, same defense.

Once again, WHIP measures base runners allowed via walk or hit. More men on base = chances of scoring a run is greater.

[antifoil]

you are proving my point? robertson is able to keep a low fip even though he has a high walkrate and high babip. that is what i am saying.

[stevenash]

robertson has him in WAR, fip, era, HR/9(i doubt robertson can repeat his .14 HR/9 though. that shit is crazy). the only thing he doesn't have him in is walk rate.

Oh, what a shocker, now pay attention, WAR numbers. Mo 39.4 Robertson 5.2. Do you even know the definition of Wins Above Replacement stats?

39.4 pretty much means Mo is irreplaceable.

[stevenash]

you are proving my point? robertson is able to keep a low fip even though he has a high walkrate and high babip. that is what i am saying.

They have the same defense you tool, they play against the same opposing defenses.

[antifoil]

that is career WAR. i don't know why you are talking about career WAR. rivera has play 15 years more than robertson.

[stevenash]

So besides K ratio, what numbers does Robertson dominate Mo in?

[stevenash]

that is career WAR. i don't know why you are talking about career WAR. rivera has play 15 years more than robertson.

Robertson's first three seasons his WAR numbers were 0.8, 0.8 and 2.8
Or pretty much any warm body could replace that.

Mo's first full three seasons his WAR numbers 4.4, 2.0 and 1.3

What's your next argument I can shoot down?

[antifoil]

the 4.4 is an anomally. he pitched 107 innings.

you are confused about who is shooting down who here.

you have proved my point about strikeout rate and used misinformed stats.

[stevenash]

Once again, where is Robertson more dominant than Mo besides strikeouts, close in FIP, but not better

I have proved WAR, I have proved WHIP, I have proved BABIP, which you used incorrectly, you know SABRE terms, you don't know what they mean.

Please stop, you are making yourself look really foolish

[stevenash]

When you think Dave Robertson, you think Jeff Brantley or Osuma.

The only possible name you can put in the same sentence as Mo is maybe Trevor Hoffman.

[antifoil]

just because you say i am looking foolish doesn't mean it is true.

1. i have proved how whip can misleading. a player can have a higher whip if they strikeout more players which the fip helps prove.
2. you haven't proven WAR. 4.4 was an anomaly. anyone thinking a modern day reliever having a WAR of 4.4 without going that can't be right is sad. it took me a second to see the innings pitched was why.
3. you haven't proven anything about babip. i don't think you know what it means.

[stevenash]

just because you say i am looking foolish doesn't mean it is true.

1. i have proved how whip can misleading. a player can have a higher whip if they strikeout more players which the fip helps prove.
2. you haven't proven WAR. 4.4 was an anomaly. anyone thinking a modern day reliever having a WAR of 4.4 without going that can't be right is sad. it took me a second to see the innings pitched was why.
3. you haven't proven anything about babip. i don't think you know what it means.

BABIp simply put is batting average of balls put in play

WHIP has nothing to do with strikeouts, its a metric used to determine how many base runners a pitcher puts on.

WAR is wins above replacement player, used to be known as WARP, If you look at Mo's lifetime numbers, he's irreplaceable, the numbers prove my point.

Robertson can be replaced by any other good reliever.

[stevenash]

3. you haven't proven anything about babip. i don't think you know what it means.

I have proved that Mo's BABIP is a lot lower than Robertson. Like 60 points lower

[antifoil]

that is not proving anything. i can and did look that up. rivera's career babip is awesomely low which i guess we can theorize is because his cutter is so good batters can't get good contact on it. it is so good he can have a modest strikeout rate and be as dominate as he has been and of course keeping his walks down, but robertson having a high babip will decrease over the years closer to .300 as would be expected for most pitchers. a babip over how many ever inning robertson has pitched isn't very much, and a small sample size when examining babip. it is probably equal to the same as a starter in one season. so there isn't much value in that alone. this leads to the conclusion that if robertson continues with his other metric he could be a better pitcher than he is now. if he can maintain his WAR in the 2s quickly become a top reliever in baseball.

[stevenash]

but robertson having a high babip will decrease over the years closer to .300 as would be expected for most pitchers.


if he can maintain his WAR in the 2s quickly become a top reliever in baseball.

So you are speculating.

I heard the same shit about Joba, I heard the same shit about Phil Hughes.

I heard the same shit about Peralta the shortstop, he was supposed to be the next big thing.

Blah, blah, blah, fact of the matter is Robertson lost five games in relief in 2010, and in the playoffs against the Rangers, got hit like a rented mule.

[TheCentaur]

Inner city school without its white principal/supervisor

[antifoil]

it is not speculating. pitchers have high swings in babip over the course of a career, but it will move towards .300. robertson has such a small sample size of innings pitched and batters faced that the probability of his career babip of .330 or near .330 is lower than the probability is going to be closer to .300. this is why i don't think you know what babip means or how it should be used.

i do not care what robertson did in 2010. there has been a year between that year and 2012 where he got much better, and it appears he is continuing along that same path this year. players grow and get better. and using the playoffs is a poor argument that will not work against me. the playoffs are exciting and fun to watch as a fan, but it is not a measure the player or teams ability. this is proven year after year when the best teams continue to not win the world series.

[stevenash]

and it appears he is continuing along that same path this year.

it appears.....

[antifoil]

yeah i guess one of us will be bumping this thread at the end of the season.

[onlooker]

Mayweather without Money.

[antifoil]

bump. that's 1 IP and 3K. best reliever ever.

this will probably be the only time i do this. i will forget and don't keep up with the yankees daily.

well that is not true. i picked up robertson in both my shallow fantasy teams because i never pay for saves. so i guess i will know what he does.

[Br0nxer]

Robertson stole Rivera's cutter and put it into a young body with more variety he is better

unreal some of the responses in here

rivera top 15 player all time any position

yankees 1 or 2 championships tops in late 90s and 2009 instead of 5

[mathdotcom]

Brock Landers without a losing ticket

[stevenash]

Robertson = choke artist.
Game on the line, pukes it up

[stevenash]

yeah i guess one of us will be bumping this thread at the end of the season.

bump

[stevenash]

bump

[Avenger]

Robertson = choke artist.
Game on the line, pukes it up

In summary: Robertson has what? A good cutter and fastball? He probably has a good arm but lacks control.

For a closer, I'll say his high walk rate makes him more a liability than Rivera's lower SO rate.

So yeah, not surprising he's a choke artist, when pressure is on, he can't consistently find the strike zone.

But with Robertson, there are the intangibles, as he's younger. I don't watch baseball, but does he have 1-2 pitches that are hard to hit? He's just not consistent with the delivery.

[Avenger]

And not to get off topic:

BLT with no bacon.

donuts with no chronic.

Batman with no robin.

Zeta without hoes!

[stevenash]

To put Robertson in the same sentence with Mo is ignorant.

[stevenash]

[Bostongambler]

Elesbury was only 2 for 12 against him until that hit.

[Jimmy Proffett]

A Kardashian female without STD's

[rm18]

Robertson ERA and whip are pretty good in the hardest park for RHP and hardest division to pitch in didn't say he was better than Mariano in his prime