AMANDA KNOX -- guilty or innocent???

[MilfDriller]

Been trying to read up on this case, but not really any good information out there. You watch a report on TV and it's ridiculously slanted. Same thing if you read actual news reports or follow forums.

Even tho they've had shitloads of coverage, there is very little concise, factual snapshots on the case.


All this being said, I have yet to see any information that could have realistically led to a conviction. Where is the proof? (Yes, I know... a jury)

Either she is an insane sociopath who orchestrated the killing (either directly or indirectly) or it was the African guy who raped the gal and slashed her throat.

Reminds of the American kid in Nicaragua who was framed... and later set free.

Anybody else following this???

[onthewhat]

foxy knoxy

[poker_dummy101]

guilty on some degree for sure





and before all you morons come in here.. this is an opinion stated as a fact

[MilfDriller]

CNN article.

(CNN) -- The parents of American student Amanda Knox, who was convicted of murdering British exchange student Meredith Kercher in Italy, say their daughter is ready to face the appeals process as she begins serving her 26-year prison sentence.
Edda Mellas told CNN's Larry King on Monday that her daughter was "completely crushed, devastated" immediately following Friday's guilty verdicts against her and her former Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, in Kercher's knifing death. Mellas said she and her ex-husband, Kurt Knox, visited their daughter in prison Monday and found "she's ready to go, ready to fight on."
"It made me feel good to see she was ready to charge on and she wanted to get back to studying at school and stuff like that," Knox's father said. "So we're going to work on getting that prepared for her."
Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who was sentenced to 25 years, were convicted on all charges except theft, and together must pay 5 million euros to the victim's family. In addition, Knox must pay 40,000 euros to a man whom she falsely accused of the killing.
Kercher was Knox's roommate in Perugia at the time of the November 2007 slaying.
Mellas acknowledged that her daughter had the opportunity of staying in Germany with some relatives during the first days of the murder investigation, saying there wouldn't have been enough evidence at that point to have extradited her daughter.
"I kick myself everyday that I didn't make her leave the country, and so does my cousin in Germany," she said. "Because, had she left, none of this would've happened. She wouldn't be where she's at. But, you know, we can't go back and fix that -- we just need to go forward."




Video: Knox family, friends react




Video: Knox jury, prosecutor decried




Video: Who was Meredith Kercher?

RELATED TOPICS

• Amanda Knox
• Crime
• Meredith Kercher

Knox, 22, read a statement Thursday in the trial, which began in January in the university town of Perugia, 115 miles (185 kilometers) north of Rome, telling jurors she is not a killer.
Knox and Sollecito, who were arrested shortly after the slaying, were also charged with sexual violence. A third suspect was found guilty in a separate trial and is appealing. Knox testified in June that she was not home at the time of the slaying. Sollecito also denied any role in the killing.
The jury reached its verdict after deliberating nearly 11 hours on the 11 counts against Knox and Sollecito.
Defense attorney Luciano Ghirga rejected the suggestion that the American student hated her roommate, quoting Knox as having described the victim as her friend.
Prosecutors say Kercher died during a sex game in which Knox taunted Kercher while Sollecito and acquaintance Rudy Guede sexually assaulted her. Guede was convicted in a separate fast-track trial and is appealing. The prosecution said a knife found in Sollecito's house had Knox's DNA on the handle and Kercher's on the blade, among other pieces of evidence.
Knox's defense attorneys have tried to cast doubt on the knife, saying it matches neither Kercher's wounds nor a knife imprint left on a bed sheet. They also said the DNA sample is too small to be conclusive.
Knox's parents insisted Monday that the jury made a "huge mistake" by convicting their daughter, saying there was no physical evidence against her.
"I believe this court didn't have the courage to say 'not guilty' and just push it off to the appeals level, which is completely unacceptable to me," Kurt Knox said.
The prosecution also presented what they called a confession by Knox, but Knox later said any apparent admission she was at the scene was made when investigators told her to imagine what she might have seen if she had been there. The argument became moot when a higher court ruled the alleged confession could not be used because the statement was made without an attorney or translator present.
Asked about the so-called confession, Knox's father blamed the interrogations. "Amanda was actually questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours, and it culminated in a 14-hour overnight, very aggressive interrogation."
"She told us she has never been more scared in her entire life," he continued. "She was asked to visualize a number of things ... she described even in her testimony six to eight people circling her, shouting at her, questioning her and hitting her in the back of the head. And at that state of the game, you're virtually willing to sign anything in order to get out of that situation."
Knox's father said she had been a victim of "character assassination," and described her as "a normal college kid" who was focused on school and a "late bloomer" when it came to her interest in the opposite sex.
The family has high hope for Knox's appeal, which may not reach a court docket for at least a year. Kurt Knox said the Italian appeals process is more flexible that the system in the United States, noting that the appeals court could open the case for a further evaluation of evidence and new information.
"There are many Italians who have told us that, you know, worst-case scenario, the first level rarely works correctly," Mellas said, referring to the jury trial. "'They'll get it right in appeals, she will get out of there.' They will not, you know, put away this innocent young girl for a crime she didn't commit."
Knox also faces civil penalties from Kercher's family members, who reportedly are seeking $36 million in damages for her death.
"You know, we've always said that we can only imagine the pain that they're going through. They lost their child -- there's nothing that compares to that," Mellas said, adding, "I don't know about the civil penalties. I know that Amanda has nothing, and I think it's mostly a symbolic type of a thing."

[MilfDriller]

I read these stupid commentaries/forums... and everybody has an opinion but they're based on nothing.

After reading a lot of this shit... there are simply no facts anywhere.

[MilfDriller]

I find it unlikely that some boring white suburban girl is having a sex game with her weak, geeky Italian boyfriend and some African guy who has been convicted of previous crimes.

It's like saying that a young Hillary Clinton was involved in some sex game quartet with the likes of Ron Artest.... small chance.

[MilfDriller]

And if the drug used was simply pot.... come on. If it was something hard, most any type of behavior/scenario could happen.

[jjgold]

No clue

What did the DNA conclude?

[MilfDriller]

I just don't understand this shit. The knife they have doesn't match up and has miniscule/inconclusive DNA.

The African guy's semen is in the dead victim and he left a bloody foot print there at the crime scene.

So the African guy says, 'Hey, you 2 university students hold this int'l student down for a rape and a throat slash'.... and they go along with it b/c they had a few tokes on a blunt.

wtf?

[jjgold]

What did the black guy get??

[MilfDriller]

now this is some good shit:

In Amanda's own words: the next morning after the murder, she went home and found the front door wide open, one of the windows was broken, there was blood on the floor of bathroom. As a smart girl as her parents constantly claimed, Amanda didn't call police, but took off clothes and took a shower. Do you think it is normal? Also, witness saw her doing laundry early morning after the murder, while Amanda told police she was sleeping at that time. A credit card receipt showed Knox's boyfriend bought two big bottles of bleach early morning after the murder; while he told police he was sleeping at that time. Knox's boyfriend told police at the night of murder, he was searching internet and playing his laptop. Police tested his laptop, which was idle and there was no activity at all....I can go on and on. Those are not evidence?

this makes her out to be a lying whore. none of this shit adds up. I wish I could just have access to all the information and examine it.

[MilfDriller]

he was already sentenced to 30 yrs. think it was 30.

he has denied it... but his bloody print and his man juice in the dead body... that's the only dead giveaway to me.

[jjgold]

She could win the appeal

[MilfDriller]

getting more info.

crime scene was cleaned and doctored. yet African guy's print was left blatantly. so if he participated in the cleaning... why would he leave his shit right out in the open. so that's out.

looks like a dna match of knox and victim blood in bathroom.

that's damning

[MilfDriller]

All the American outlets paint this at Knox as the victim... but some of this shit is damning. the news is all 'emotion' news. fvcking disgusting.

fvck, why can't they even report just 10% of the facts........ instead of the emotion bullshit

[MilfDriller]

I'd have to say guilty now... dude never cleans, has a cleaning lady, and then he all of a sudden goes and buys 2 bottles of bleach.... and does so the day after the murder?

and he used his credit card. what a dumb cocksucker.

I'm sorry, but none of this adds up.... and she's not telling the truth about what happened. And if she won't say what happened, it's b/c it would seal her fate.

Bitch is likely guilty.

[MilfDriller]

cell phone records have her communicating with the African guy before and after the killing...

hello! Ex-squeezeme.

media is portraying her as innocent and this whole case smells like 10,000 tons of horse shit

[MilfDriller]

and she said she never knew the guy. lol

[MilfDriller]

this is all bullshit. only thing that can be certain is that the African guy banged her (likely raped) and most probably killed her

Knox nor her bf's DNA were found in the room of the murder... but the African guy's bidness was all over the place.

[moses millsap]

only the american media

she is guilty as shit, read all the facts from truejustice.org

why would she tell a gazillion lies for no reason? if she werent a cute american girl, this case would be done and over with...hope she kills herself in jail like she killed meredith

[MilfDriller]

I'd bet the African guy killed her. I mean, look at the only facts we have.... semen in the victim's body, his DNA is all over the crime scene.... Knox has zero DNA at the crime scene. Shared bathroom has DNA from both.. but that's 2 women cohabitating.

[MilfDriller]

more gossips stuff.


I found this article in Vanity Fair the most interesting and fact-filled, although it's from a year plus ago. The writer sees little evidence against Amanda:

Quote:
The Italian police may have had their reasons for holding 20-year-old American Amanda Knox in connection with the “extreme sex” murder last November of her British roommate, Meredith Kercher: her callous reaction, changing story, and unsettling MySpace page among them. What they don’t seem to have is a case.

But the article also notes some details that I have not seen in the other articles I've read. For example, it has been suggested that Amanda's oddly inappropriate behavior was caused by the long interrogation and conditions in the police station. But what explains her behavior here?

Quote:
The next day (after the murder was discovered), Amanda and Raffaele went shopping at Bubble, a fashionable clothing store on Via Calderini. In its brightly lit window were an assortment of flashy skirts and shoes. There the couple purchased two pairs of thong underwear, at which point Carlo Scotto di Rinaldi, the store’s bi-lingual owner, tells me, they kissed and embraced, and Raffaele told Amanda, “ ‘We can have wild sex tonight!’ Sesso selvaggio.” As Amanda was only his second girlfriend, Raffaele was pretty new to sex in all of its forms, according to his voluble lawyer, Marco Brusco. “Selvaggio, he learned from her,” the lawyer says, raising his hands, while speculating on the number of Amanda’s previous lovers, which he believes to be unnaturally high. What can you expect? “È americana!”

All of the couple’s amorous behavior was caught on closed-circuit camera. The shop owner, taken aback when he recognized Amanda’s face on the local news, mentioned what he had seen to a friend on the police force. A few days later, police retrieved the tape and handed it over to Perugia’s deceptively mild prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, whose position is roughly equivalent to that of a U.S. district attorney. Within days, the tape was released to the rest of the world. On television and Web sites everywhere, the couple’s passion over the thong underwear was played and replayed.

And what about this?

Quote:
From Robyn Butterworth, one of Meredith’s closest friends in Perugia, he learned that, just hours after the girl’s mutilated corpse was discovered, Amanda was boasting about “having seen Meredith’s body by the closet with a cover or a sheet over her.” Butterworth got the feeling that Amanda “seemed proud to have been the first to have found her.”

How could Amanda have known such vital details? Mignini wondered. The door to Meredith’s bedroom had been locked when police arrived. It had been forced open by police, but then quickly closed. If Amanda had seen the corpse of her housemate, Mignini decided, it could mean only one thing: she had watched Meredith die.

Or it could mean that she's a BSer, you never know. But it's certainly strange. Note as well that her boyfriend had already cooled on her quite a bit when the story was first written:

Quote:
“I never want to see Amanda again,” Raffaele has told police. His father, Francesco Sollecito, a prominent urologist from Bari, in southern Italy, is particularly agitated on the subject of the young American girl’s pernicious influence on his only son.

“She is a strange girl. I think we can agree on that,” he says. “I have my doubts about her truthfulness. What happened the night of the murder? Every time she talks a different truth comes out of her mouth. There are so many truths and versions of the truth that it is hard to know what she is saying!”


__________________

[MilfDriller]

kind of funny how the Italian kid's father is a 'dick-ologist'.

wonder if Knox was banging the African dude

[MilfDriller]

there is no physical evidence placing Amanda Knox at the blood-splattered crime scene, the room where the killing took place. Zero. But there is abundant evidence linking a drifter named Rudy Guede to the scene — blood, DNA, prints and his own admission. Little wonder he fled to Germany just after the killing, while Knox went to the police voluntarily, without an attorney. Little wonder that he was found guilty, last year, of sexual assault and conspiracy to kill Kercher. He’s serving a 30-year sentence and appealing the case.
There is no motive for Knox and Sollecito; they have no criminal record, no history of violent group sexual encounters. E-mails show Knox and her roommate got along fine, except for the typical college-student disputes over bathroom and household chores.
The one bit of physical evidence from the scene that ties Sollecito — not Knox — to the crime is a bra clasp from Kercher. Prosecutors claim they found some of his DNA on this. But it was not “discovered” until 46 days after the murder, making it subject to contamination and manipulation.

[MilfDriller]

more stuff. but the Italian dude's fetishes.... maybe it was a freaky quartet gone wrong.

As I said, I wasn't in court so I don't have access to all the evidence. I don't know if that was all the evidence presented, and I suspect that you don't know for certain either.

I found this on :
Quote:
General and circumstantial evidence:

- Alibis changed several times.
- Inconsistencies in alibis, which still remain.
- Alibis contradicted by 3 independent witnesses, and by analysis of computer hard drive.
- Witness saw them both outside cottage with knives that night.
- Cell phones switched off early in evening, contrary to normal habits.
- Break-in was faked, nobody but Knox and Sollecito had a motive.
- Washing machine was run on morning after murder, and cleanup attempted long after Guede had fled.
- Victim's injuries point to more than one attacker, as do footprints and witness hearing running feet.
- Highly improbable story of Knox showering in house on morning after murder, unworried by broken window, open door, blood stains, unflushed toilet.
- Lie by Sollecito about phone call from father that evening.
- Lie by Sollecito about Meredith being pricked with knife while cooking.
- Lie about what time they called the Carabanieri.
- Knox had knowledge about manner of victim's death even before the police knew.
- False accusation by Knox against Patrick Luamba. Knox told mother shortly afterwards that Luamba was innocent, but neither made any attempt to tell police or lawyers.
- Knox may have been on bad terms with victim.

Forensic evidence:

- Knife with victim's DNA in Sollecito's apartment.
- Sollectio's DNA on victims bra, possibly Knox's DNA on victim's bra.
- Knox's blood mixed with victim's blood: in bathroom (3 places), hallway, room with faked break-in.
- Footprints in blood compatible with Knox in hallway, cleaned after murder, revealed with luminol.
- Footprint in victim's blood compatible with Sollecito on bathmat.
- Print of woman's shoe compatible with Knox's shoe size (not victim's) under victim's body.
- A number of forensic experts called by the defence were unable to dent the prosecution case.

Background (not evidence in itself, but supports evidence):

- Knox: heavy marijuana and alcohol user, casually slept with many men. Fined for wild party in Seattle. Cold, abnormal behavior after murder: "She f-ing bled to death". Laughing, kissing, making faces in police station soon after murder. Day after body discovered Knox shopped for sexy lingerie, kissed in public, talked about wild sex. Cartwheels in police station waiting room. Didn't attend memorial for victim, went for pizza instead.
- Sollecito: arrogant and spoiled, marijuana and cocaine user, collected knives and always carried a knife with him. Collected violent, pornographic comics. Collected besiality porn. Had poster of serial killer on his wall. Wanted 'extreme experiences'.

[Grandmaster B]

no motive

[MilfDriller]

more

I think the best other narrative is that Guede, and only Guede, did it. His DNA was all over the scene, including on the victim's body, toilet tissue, and tampon. His footprints and handprints were at the scene. There is no doubt he was there and had plenty of physical contact with the victim. By contrast, they had to stretch quite a bit to tie Knox or her boyfriend to the scene at all. The victim was supposedly held down, sexually assaulted, and stabbed in the throat, yet they found no DNA on her body from anyone but Guede, nor in the room itself, save for a tiny bit on a bra clasp that had been left at an active crime scene for 40+ days before being tested. And Guede had a history of burglary, including breaking and climbing in through a window higher than the one in this case.

Certainly it is a much simpler and far more common crime: a man sexually assaulted and then murdered a young woman. It is definitely a simpler scenario when contrasted with the prosecution theories, which included a Satanic rite, a sex game gone wrong, and then no real theory at all.

I'm not going to claim that narrative is what happened. I have no idea if she is guilty or not. But, IMO, it seems like a reasonable narrative that fits the evidence.

[MilfDriller]

Going back and forth on this....

But honestly, if the African guy's trail is everywhere, including INSIDE the victim, and all around and on her body..... and yet there is nothing from Knox and the Italian guy even at the crime scene...

I mean, wtf were they doing? Watching the African rape and kill the girl?

However, I get the impression that she's a lying whore slut manipulator.... maybe she was banging the African guy and there was some weird dynamics. The Italian boyfriend seems to me a gullible pawn-toy.

[MilfDriller]

Either the African guy did it and was the sole perp.... or they were working as a team.

Yet since the African guy's bidness was all over the crime scene and Knox and her bf had nothing there.... I don't know, this seems to me to be the most likely scenario.

[MilfDriller]

more. perhaps best one yet.....

Originally Posted by skeptigirl
<snip>

I don't think the broken window proved anything one way or the other but it is my understanding the killer left via the window in Kercher's room. We don't know if he broke in or was let in or just came through an open door.

<snip>


I'm only picking out this one comment as an example. I don't mean to single it out as a particular 'smoking gun'.

Here is a site with an interesting discussion on the case and how it has been presented.

Among the things discussed is the apparent break-in into Filomena Romanelli's (the third roomate) room. This excerpt is interesting.


Quote:
Filomena testifed that she found clothes strewn around her room the next day and that she had left the room tidy. She testified that glass from the window broken in her bedroom was on top of those strewn clothes. If the window was broken by someone entering the home who was intent on rape and/or robbery, then the glass would not be on top of the clothes as those clothes would not have been under the window then (Filomena also testified that she had valuables in plain view in her bedroom and that none were taken).


The evidence suggests that someone placed these clothes around the room and THEN broke the window to “stage a scene” (as there is no explanation for why anyone would have any motive to randomly take clothes and throw them around a room).

This is combined with many other aspects of the case that are not developed in recent U.S. news reports which provide a much less clear picture of railroading an innocent.

I had noted the case when it first broke, but have not followed it with great attention. When the media storm around the verdict blew up yesterday I was first dismayed, and then disgusted by the overwhelming and obvious spin being projected by U.S. sources. HLN was the worst, but all of them were guilty to some degree.

Understand that I approached this with no particular bias as to her guilt one way or the other, and no real study of the case as it has developed. If anything I would be inclined to hope that she was indeed innocent.

The presentation and vehemence of the media followup to the verdict, along with the style of approach used to spin a position set off alarm bells in my mind. There was virtually no effort to even contemplate the possibility that Knox was guilty. There was a definite aroma of "...doth protest too much." accompanied by a xenophobic stench.

I decided to start by taking a look at a true crime board I've found to be fairly even-handed. A quite large and well frequented one that generally manages good insights which usually prove correct. They started a on the case on 11/06/07, and developed an early consensus that there was a strong likelihood of Knox's guilt. That consensus did not change much over two years. It should be noted that most of the posters are American, even though there are many from overseas.

The more that I have reviewed different presentations of the story the less confident I have become that there is a slam-dunk case for prosecutorial misconduct. I won't list a string of links here. They're easily found if anyone wants to take the initiative to look. The thread I linked to offers many, and does so in the chronological order that the case developed, which allows for some additional insight all its own.

My suspicion, almost a certainty, is that if this tragedy had occurred in the U.S, and if Ms. Knox had been prosecuted in the U.S. with the evidence I have seen as available against her, even with all the extra protections of American jurisprudence, she would have been convicted, would not have been sentenced with less than LWOP, and would have been very fortunate not to ride a needle. Others have on far less.

If she's innocent then certainly that is much to be deplored, although it must be said that an erroneous conviction in Italy can bear much less .. fatal results than in the U.S.

If she is guilty then it might be that she should be grateful that she is guilty in Europe.

[SpiderMonkey]

We have watched all the Datelines, 20/20's, etc. on this - really don't think she had it in her to kill her [or even cover up for someone] - she's looking like a scapegoat for the Italian police. Looks like she is going down tho - not sure how their justice/appeal system works moving forward ...

[MilfDriller]

more

There was no DNA of Knox in the murder room even though she was supposed to be part of a brutal rape and murder and there was plenty of Guede's DNA in the room. How did she manage to leave no hair, saliva, skin flakes, or blood in the room? Do you believe she could have removed all her evidence without disturbing the DNA evidence of Guede?

The only evidence linking Solecito to the scene was a bit of DNA on Kercher's bra clasp which was left at the crime scene for 46 days of trampling by the police before being recovered and tested. Why was there no DNA of Solecito recovered from the murder room at the time of the original investigation of the scene?

Are you referring to the DNA on the alleged murder weapon? First of all defense experts showed the knife was inconsistent with the wounds on Kircher. The knife was in Solecito's apartment so supposedly Knox and Solecito took it back from the murder scene and put it in the kitchen drawer. Knox frequented the apartment so it's undestandable that her DNA was on the handle.

The knife tested negative for blood. The alleged bit of biological material on the tip of the knife that the prosecution claimed contained Kercher's DNA was so small that no independent lab could repeat the prosecution's test. You do realize the importance of repeatability in science in general and especially in forensics where someone freedom is at stake.

Why do you assume that the only reason a biased jury would reject independent experts' claims is that the claims are indefensible.

Skeptigirl has provided links to sites listing people wrongfully convicted in the US. Are you going to assume that all those cases were correctly decided in spite of evidence of prosecutorial misconduct, false testimony, and jury bias?

[MilfDriller]

As suggested previously in this thread and in a linked NY Times column, the prosecutor, who had a previous record of doggedly pursuing outrageous allegations, had to save face and was determined to get a conviction of Knox and Solecito regardless of the lack of evidence.

Most importantly, you've got the burden of proof all wrong. The prosecution made the extraordinary claim that Knox and Solecito, who had only met a couple of weeks earlier, had tried to force Kercher into a sex game with them and Guede of whom Knox and Solecito had only a passing awareness.

The prosecution claims that Knox slashed Kercher's throat while Guede and Solecito held her down. The prosecution also expects us to believe that even though Guede's DNA was found in Kercher's room in abundance, it's not surprising that none of Knox's DNA was found in the murder room and that the only DNA from Solecito was on Kercher's bra clasp recovered from a contaminated scene 46 days later.

The prosecution also expects us to dismiss the more rational claim by the defense that Guede acted alone even though only Guede had a criminal record, only Guede had been previously arrested with a knife in his hand after a breakin, only Guede admitted to having actually been in Kercher's room the night of the murder, only Guede's DNA was found in the murder room and on Kercher's body, only Guede's bloody handprint was found in Kercher's room, and only Guede fled the country even though Knox's mother had asked her to come home after the murder.

[MilfDriller]

more

Originally Posted by Kestrel
Time for a scientific reality check.

Bathrooms are places where humans perform the kind of hygiene tasks that cause us to shed material containing DNA. Things like showering, trimming toenails and brushing hair. This material doesn't evaporate, it stays around. Normal cleaning doesn't get rid of all of it. Take a swab from a random spot in anyone's bathroom and you are likely to find their DNA.

The bathroom in question was routinely used by both the suspect and the victim. Even in the absence of a murder, finding DNA from both of them in that room would be expected. Finding DNA from both persons in the same swab would not be considered odd.

It's not just random dna. It's Knox's DNA mixed with Kercher's blood and Knox's blood mixed with Kercher's blood and in several places. 3 separate places in the bathroom including the ledge of the basin, on the bidet, and on a box of Q Tips cotton swabs. Then the footprint and the mixed dna in Filomena's room which Knox said she didn't enter when she said she discovered the murder scene (also the room of the broken glass btw).

[MilfDriller]

just doesn't make sense.

so the African guy did all the killing and Knox and her bf stood by and watched .. and later cleaned up the joint for the African guy who fled the country while they stayed behind and voluntarily subjected themselves to police questioning...