Dr J Irving Leaves LeBron James Off Of All-Time 1st And 2nd Team

[Mac4Lyfe]

But I think in 50 years we are just going to watch Chinese guys play basketball games on a computer.

Hell, I'd do that now if we could gamble on it.

[Roger T. Bannon]

This is why KVB claims to be in a betting syndicate betting opposite of SBR posters.

[Bcatswin]

Nice 2 teams.

[KVB]

...Guys today cannot shoot very well overall...

Here are 2 pt field goal percentages over the last 40 years. We could break this down by distance, differentiating between layups and 12 footers, but it's not necessary...

[KVB]

Wrong thread.

[Roger T. Bannon]

It's pretty bad isn't it. They are getting a little better.

[Mac4Lyfe]

KVB - I already explained this. FG% is not a true barometer in basketball since the advent of the 3 point shot. You need to look at the True Shooting %.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career.html

[KVB]

Made me think of some of the Curry demos we've seen in recent years...

[Roger T. Bannon]

You still fail to understand the role that training plays in performance and how little difference there is in true talent. True talent does not change over time.

[Mac4Lyfe]

[Roger T. Bannon]

So in the past six years we've seen a significant difference in shooting percentage over guys that practiced six weeks before the season started? That is pretty impressive.

[Mac4Lyfe]

[Roger T. Bannon]

Here is how it works. Human athletic talent does not change over time.

Practice habits change. Coaching levels change. The pool of athletes available may change somewhat. Overall skill levels may change due to practice habits.

Take the single best athletes in the world from 1975 and match them against the single best athletes in 2020. Train them with the same level of training and the 2020 athletes will perform slightly better due to population growth.

[Mac4Lyfe]

So in the past six years we've seen a significant difference in shooting percentage over guys that practiced six weeks before the season started? That is pretty impressive.

Remember during the lockout, players could not train with other players or use any of the teams facilities. Some players went over to Europe on short contracts. So once they got back together in December, they most likely played poorly not having enough time to play with each other and work out any offensive chemistry. I remember seeing a stat on how shooting percentages went up as the season progressed.

I totally agree that access to top notch training is huge. Give Jordan or Bird the same tools these kids have to day and the SAME RULES as well. Wow. Who knows what could have been. I've enjoyed basketball in every generation. All these arguments are just conjecture because we really can't prove it unless they played against each other.

[KVB]

Correct, there's a shit ton of factors we could throw in there, but from defense and style to number of shots taken from where. All of them we can quantify.

But over the last 40 years the general picture stays about the same.

And when talking about FG %, remember we're not talking about 3 pointers which have impacted the game tremendously since about 2016.

Not just in frequency of shooting and accuracy, but from distance as well.

It's the growing popularity of the long range 3 pointer that might lead to some changes.

Curry an Lillard a big part of that, bigger than just two players and their stats from out there are getting noticed.

[Roger T. Bannon]

Remember during the lockout, players could not train with other players or use any of the teams facilities. Some players went over to Europe on short contracts. So once they got back together in December, they most likely played poorly not having enough time to play with each other and work out any offensive chemistry. I remember seeing a stat on how shooting percentages went up as the season progressed.

I totally agree that access to top notch training is huge. Give Jordan or Bird the same tools these kids have to day and the SAME RULES as well. Wow. Who knows what could have been. I've enjoyed basketball in every generation. All these arguments are just conjecture because we really can't prove it unless they played against each other.

Exactly. Now Jerry West and Wilt, you can say something else. Those guys did not have athletic ability sufficient to compete today. However, West was obviously a great players and we probably discount his ability too much. Hard to say about Wilt.

Baseball would be probably the least difference. NFL probably the greatest difference. I don't think most NFL players from the 80s could even make a team but some of the elite players would still be elite.

[Mac4Lyfe]

Here is how it works. Human athletic talent does not change over time.

Practice habits change. Coaching levels change. The pool of athletes available may change somewhat. Overall skill levels may change due to practice habits.

Take the single best athletes in the world from 1975 and match them against the single best athletes in 2020. Train them with the same level of training and the 2020 athletes will perform slightly better due to population growth.

Don't minimize nutrition and performance enhancing.

If you look at the NFL combines the last decade, there's basically been no change in all the measurements like 40 time, cone shuttle, broad jump, vertical, 225 lift, BMI, etc. So your premise looks to be true. Or maybe NFL athletes all train for the combine the same way the last decade, so they've probably maxed out on performance. I'll have to look up the combines lets say 40 years ago. I do think we could see noticeable differences then.

[Roger T. Bannon]

Don't minimize nutrition and performance enhancing.

If you look at the NFL combines the last decade, there's basically been no change in all the measurements like 40 time, cone shuttle, broad jump, vertical, 225 lift, BMI, etc. So your premise looks to be true. Or maybe NFL athletes all train for the combine the same way the last decade, so they've probably maxed out on performance. I'll have to look up the combines lets say 40 years ago. I do think we could see noticeable differences then.

I'm just talking about true talent levels and elite performance. Football has become so much more popular over the decades and the selection of players so specific that there is no comparing. Walter Peyton, Tony Dorsett and some QBs would be elite. Reggie Whites would be up there. But otherwise, the targeting of kids from age 5 has made a huge difference.

The number of guys 6-8 and that can hit a turnaround jumper does not change over time. They are easy to find.

[Ghenghis Kahn]

Even Michael Jordan didn’t have handles like the guys today. Today’s player practice moves the old guys never ever even dreamed of doing. I’m not sure where you are getting that there’s only a few moves? There are hundreds of moves in basketball. Take dribbling, I can think of a dozen moves but when you combine them 12 basic moves become 144. Combine that with another move and now you have 1000+ combinations. Then you have moves after the dribble, moves into your shot, post moves, passing moves, 2 person moves, 3 people triangle, team moves. There’s dozens of moves without the ball.

They all learn from camps that teach the same moves. Heck you can learn those moves by watching Youtube. That's why modern players dribble and move very much alike. Yeah the players have better skills overall but that's because they are taught that way at an early age.

Things that you can't teach are speed, power, and work ethics. Things you can teach, shooting, dribbling, footwork, and positioning the ball correctly. All the legends from the past can learn skill moves the kids do today.

Basketball is much like dancing. There are evolution in moves and styles, not better athletes... Yes, they broke down nutrition, footwear, and conditioning but those all can be learned

[Ghenghis Kahn]

Also, do you remember Pistol Pete. He was way ahead of his time

[KVB]

KVB - I already explained this. FG% is not a true barometer in basketball since the advent of the 3 point shot. You need to look at the True Shooting %.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...ct_career.html

Remember, statistically when you see Field Goal percentage in the NBA, it does not include the 3 pt shot.

That's a different statistic altogether.

I could go into several ways to measure efficiency, etc, because there are many ways we measure it and all those ways are used differently in different handicapping methods, but field goal percentage is field goal percentage. The FG% is a barometer of FG% without a question of being "true", it's a measurable and repeatable observation (a fact) and there's no need to adulterate it.

[Roger T. Bannon]

One thing that has changed though in basketball is the breakaway rim. Rims in the 70s were extremely tight. It is far easier to make a basket today because of the soft rims. I would guess that adds 2% to overall shooting percentage.

[Roger T. Bannon]

Obviously Bird and Jordan would start in the NBA and lead their teams in scoring in 2021.

When you look at other guys, like a Bob McAdoo or Elvin Hayes or George Gervin, you have to ask yourself how much they would drop on a college team just rolling straight out of the 1970s. They put 40 up fairly easily. Now you have to ask yourself where this person gets drafted? And what does that draft pick become?

Something like baseball, Ernie Banks is the No. 1 pick in the draft in 2021 at 18.

Ernie Banks would be a Hall of Famer in 2021.

Any major league pitcher that won 20 game would win 20 today.

Some of the power hitters would hit more home runs because of the juiced ball and there being zero pitchers parks in baseball as compared to when they played where half the parks were pitchers parks. Then you put them on weights.

[jtoler]

Remember, statistically when you see Field Goal percentage in the NBA, it does not include the 3 pt shot.

That's a different statistic altogether.

I could go into several ways to measure efficiency, etc, because there are many ways we measure it and all those ways are used differently in different handicapping methods, but field goal percentage is field goal percentage. The FG% is a barometer of FG% without a question of being "true", it's a measurable and repeatable observation (a fact) and there's no need to adulterate it.

how does fg% not include the 3 pt shot. always thought u just add 2pt attempts and 3pt attempts and divide the made attempts by it

[Hman]

Obviously Bird and Jordan would start in the NBA and lead their teams in scoring in 2021.

.

They averaged 30-35 back then when it was all about defense

They would avg 45 today no problem

[JIBBBY]

All I know in the NBA right now is the Nets are the team to start betting on. They are heating up even without James Harden.

[Roger T. Bannon]

The most interesting comparison is football. I think very few WRs or DBs could play in the NFL from the 1980s and definitely not from the 1970s. There would obviously be a few make it. A 1960s NFL team would lose to a college team by 30 points.

On the other hand, a lot of the QBs would make it. Those guys really were up against it. They could not just throw the ball away, the defensive backs could hang all over the WRs. The ball was bigger and heavier. Those guys were pretty good. A lot of the running backs could make it.

[JIBBBY]

All I know in the NBA right now is the Nets are the team to start betting on. They are heating up even without James Harden.

Another blowout win and cover tonight .. Cash it next..

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/brooklyn-nets-indiana-pacers-2021042911/

[Roger T. Bannon]

I never saw Oscar Robertson or even had any interest in the guy. Did not realize he was 6-5. Yeah, this guy was pretty nasty.

Jerry West was pretty impressive too. Some tough fadeaway jumpers. I'd say he was definitely a college All-American and 1st-round draft pick.

Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elvin Hayes, George Gervin and Artis Gilmore would put a pretty serious beatdown on you.

[Romocide]

My all time nba team

G Mikan
L Bird
K McHale
S Nash
D Nowitski

You gotta replace Mikan with Jerry West

[TheMoneyShot]

It's only evident why Dr. J left Lebron off the All Time List... guy is always arrogant, outspoken off court. Just shut your mouth and do your work on the court.

If there is anyone who really DROPS OFF when they are losing a series hands down.... its Lebron. There's no question about it. The body language... the sh#$ effort... when Lebron is totally out manned in a series... I've never seen anyone.. GIVE UP LIKE HE DOES. That's not a LEGEND. This will always tarnish his legacy.

Kobe Bryant never gave up... Michael Jordan never gave up. Lebron is already on vacation in the 4th quarter.

[Roger T. Bannon]

Big George was huge. He had a pretty soft touch. No athletic ability at all. Good passer. Excellent granny shot free throw shooter.

He'd be an elite college player.

I'd like to see a 7-game series of elite NBA players of the 1970s play up to their ability in 2021 and then have a road series where NBA players go back in time to be the players they would be in the 1970s.

[Roger T. Bannon]

Artis Gilmore is the guy that is most impressive. Good God, this guy had talent. You give me the choice between Zion and Artis Gilmore and I am taking Artis Gilmore. He is the No. 1 pick in the draft in any draft in the past or future. I think Artis Gilmore would be a 7-2 Lebron in 2021.

Also have to give Wilt credit. The guy was gigantic. It is frightening to consider how massive he would be in 2021. He was more talented than Shaq for sure.

[Roger T. Bannon]

I am now laughing out loud at my thought that Wilt was not athletic enough to play in today's NBA. He ran a 4.6 40 and outran Jim Brown twice in a 40-yard dash. Benched 465 pounds. Had a 40-inch vertical at 7-0.

[Roger T. Bannon]

Wilt could not be the No. 1 pick in the NBA draft today though because he would be the greatest DE that ever lived.