I realize he is a class act and human being. The story is great. Trevor Hoffman played on a dog shit team for ages and played one less year and has 51 less saves. I have never seen this parade of bullshit for a guy retiring. Yes, I realize he is great but so are many others that didn't have a circus when they left.
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Cuz he never took roids like that fukin prick in your avatar.Comment -
how are hoffman's postseason stats compared to mo's?
srsly have you been asleep the last 17 years?
141 postseason ip and his era is 0.70
/end threadComment -
best relief pitcher of all timeComment -
He is the GOAT (Closer) and if he isn't the best professional athlete off the field and most classy on, I'd like to know who is
Basically a living legend......Guys like Mo don't come around too often
Red Sox fans cheering their asses off for him basically says it allComment -
even mentioning Trevor Hoffman with Mo
without Mo the Yankees plain and simple don't have all them rings. Posada doesn't have 5 rings. Scott freakin Brosious doesn't have World Series MVP. and ring. (career .257 hitter) to put things into perspective.
that's just stupid trivial stuff.
like stinker said you are embarrassing yourself. every single hitter KNEW what was coming every pitch they still could not could solid wood on the ball. IN THE BIGGEST MOMENTS IN BASEBALL.
MOST CLUTCH PITCHER IN BASEBALL HISTORY
Trevor Hoffman
wanna throw in Gagne too?Comment -
my favorite Mo moment.
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Aren't you the same guy who a few weeks ago started a thread about journeyman pitcher Yusmeiro Petit being the next great rookie and future staff ace? Who are you to laugh at anyone's baseball acumen?even mentioning Trevor Hoffman with Mo
without Mo the Yankees plain and simple don't have all them rings. Posada doesn't have 5 rings. Scott freakin Brosious doesn't have World Series MVP. and ring. (career .257 hitter) to put things into perspective.
that's just stupid trivial stuff.
like stinker said you are embarrassing yourself. every single hitter KNEW what was coming every pitch they still could not could solid wood on the ball. IN THE BIGGEST MOMENTS IN BASEBALL.
MOST CLUTCH PITCHER IN BASEBALL HISTORY
Trevor Hoffman
wanna throw in Gagne too?Comment -
Well done Mo...
You did your job better than anyone else
..Have a nice retirement in Panama.
But agree with Duece...Enough of the 3 ring circus already.
Replacing new "Exit Sandman" bases after every inning...I mean really??..Enough...
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No horse???!Comment -
and said he would be next rising star ace in Giants rotation with the way he was pitching..
back on topicComment -
whats that? the one blown save. out of 5 World Series hes closed out. guess he's human after all. he makes that save and they have 6 rings. lol. yous are crazy.
name another closer that's closed out 5 World Series or should I should put them in position to get there.Comment -
Deuce
common guy
posters already outlined why its such a big deal
he is the greatest postseason pitcher ever and greatest reliever ever
not his fault he played in the steroid era
his opponents were juicing yet he was clean and he still dominated like thatComment -
trevor hoffman sAved games for .500 teams in san diego that never felt an ounce of pressure of a pennant raceComment -
He is human that was my point. Blowing game 7 of the WS is a big deal. He is nothing more than a closer, a good closer with a long career on the top spending team in MLB. Good teams equal more save and playoff opportunities. 3 outs....... wow, how many great pitchers could record saves if that is all that they have to do? I think little of saves as a stat in general, I think baseball would be better off without it. Dan Haren throws the same pitch that made Mo so effective what if a guy like Haren pitched one inning at the end of the game for his entire career? It sounds silly because it is. Closers are a dime a dozen.Comment -
Barring an extremely unlikely finish in the AL wild card chase, Mariano Rivera will pitch his final game this week. And thus will end the career of one of the most respected, most beloved and most overrated players in recent memory.
Wait, before you release the hounds, let me make myself clear. Rivera is an outstanding pitcher who has had a long and wonderful career. He played an important role in the Yankees' return to dominance and their five World Series championships. He is a shining role model for major leaguers. He was a fitting person to be the last player to wear No. 42. I will be sad to see him retire.
[+] Enlarge
<cite style="margin: 0px 0px 4px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; display: block; color: rgb(171, 171, 171);">AP Photo/Kathy Willens</cite>Sad to see him go. But let's keep Mariano Rivera's career in perspective.
But Rivera is not Superman. He wears pinstripes, not blue long johns and a red cape. Rivera is a closer. And like all closers in this modern "They Pitch Only The Ninth Inning" era, he is overvalued.
I have read and heard a lot of people -- from bloggers to folks in major leaguer dugouts -- contend that Rivera has been more important than Derek Jeter to the Yankees' success. Really? Including the postseason, Rivera has pitched 1,423 innings in his career. Jeter has played in more than 23,400 innings. That's about 22,000 more innings than Rivera played -- 15 entire seasons' worth of games. And yet some think what Rivera did in his 1,423 innings was more important than what Jeter has done in his 23,400? Please.
Put it this way: Rivera could not have earned a single save had teammates such as Jeter, Andy Pettitte,Jorge Posada and Bernie Williams not obtained a lead in the first place. What they and others did in those first eight innings were more important than what Rivera did in the final national spotlight.
Don't believe me? Before you bring the tar to a boil and gather more feathers, let me again cite the work of Project Retrosheet founder Dave Smith. He thoroughly and tirelessly researched games from more than seven decades and found that the rate at which teams win games with late-inning leads basically has not changed. Teams leading by one run after eight innings have gone on to win 85.7 percent of the time. That number goes up to 93.7 percent when leading by two runs, and 97.5 percent when leading by three runs.
Mull that over, and then please tell me why Rivera is so amazing for having an 89.1 percent career save rate (which, by the way, is lower than Joe Nathan's). Because, basically, Rivera was not used except in games the Yankees were going to win 88 percent of the time anyway. Actually, the percentages were usually higher than that. According to Elias, of Rivera's 652 career saves, just under a third (210) were with a one-run lead when he took the mound while 216 were with a two-run lead, 180 with a three-run lead and 46 with a lead of at least four runs.
(I will now again stress that Mariano Rivera is a really good guy, an outstanding pitcher and that I am sad to see him retire.)
<cite style="margin: 0px 0px 4px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; display: block; color: rgb(171, 171, 171);">AP Photo/Jim Cowsert</cite>Joe Nathan, Hall of Famer? Hey, he has a better career saves percentage (89.9) than Rivera (89.1).
Remember the All-Star Game this season, when fans were outraged that American League manager Jim Leyland pitched Rivera in the eighth inning rather than reserve him for the ninth and a save? The explanation was that the AL could have blown the lead in the eighth inning. Which made sense because, after all, the greatest closer in history simply could not be asked to enter a game in the eighth inning in case he was needed to put out a fire with runners on base. No, these days closers can only be used at the start of the ninth, when nobody is on base.
This is why, despite being the all-time leader in "saves" and a reliever for 18 years, Rivera ranks 142nd all-time in inherited runners, tied with the immortal Boone Logan and Fred Gladding, according to baseballreference.com. This isn't Rivera's fault at all; he's been used in the eighth inning more often than most of his contemporaries. It's due to the by-the-book managing approach that reserves the closer for situations when a team is most likely to win anyway.
This is absurd. It would be like keeping Miguel Cabrera or Mike Trout on the bench until the last inning just in case they were needed to pinch-hit in a "crucial" situation.
(Let me again reiterate that Mariano Rivera is a really good guy, an outstanding pitcher and that I am sad to see him retire.)
Will Rivera reach the Hall of Fame? Undoubtedly. But other than being the greatest closer ever, his numbers aren't as overwhelming in that regard as many assume. I'm not a disciple of WAR, but even that statistic doesn't rank Rivera high enough to warrant the gushing. FanGraphs lists his WAR at 40.2, or 12.3 points lower than that of Jack Morris, who still isn't in the Hall after 14 years on the ballot. Evidently, pitching one inning with a lead isn't considered as important as pitching the first eight innings to establish the lead.
[+] Enlarge
<cite style="margin: 0px 0px 4px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; display: block; color: rgb(171, 171, 171);">AP Photo/Steven Senne</cite>How would Rivera's career look if he'd spent it as a starter?
While Baseball-Reference.com gives Rivera a significantly higher WAR of 56.5 -- don't you just love a stat that differs according to the source? -- this is still well below Mike Mussina (82.7), Curt Schilling (80.7) and even Rick Reuschel (68.2). Baseball Reference also gives Rivera a score of 29 on its "Hall of Fame standards test," which is far lower than the average of 50 for a Hall of Famer. (He fares better when compared solely to the very few Hall of Fame relievers.)
I'm not saying Rivera does not deserve to be in Cooperstown alongside Hall of Fame relievers Goose Gossage, Hoyt Wilhelm, Bruce Sutter and Rollie Fingers. Personally, I would much rather have Rivera than Fingers, Wilhelm or Sutter. I'm simply saying that because of his limited role, his career wasn't as extraordinary as we're led to believe.
What separates Rivera from other closers is his great longevity. (Well, his longevity and playing in the narrative-setting New York media market.) Most closers are good for a handful of seasons, then break down from the physical and/or mental stress. Rivera never broke down, never produced ulcers in his managers. He was consistent and reliable throughout his career. But he was consistent and reliable while performing an easier task than pitching an entire game every fifth day or 200-plus innings during a season.
After all, Rivera had a 5.94 ERA as a starter before the Yankees decided he was better suited to the bullpen.
(And, oh, before you force me to seek asylum in Russia, did I mention that Mariano Rivera is a really good guy, an outstanding pitcher and that I am sad to see him retire?)Comment -
So in a wrap, thread shows I am not clueless. Most of the bashers are yankee fans, the unbiased agree with me. Case closed.Comment -
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Saloon this horseshit.
Ridiculous to even respond to.
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i'd take eckersley over him but what everComment -
and your kind of right he really doesnt need all this hoopla cause if you are gonna say the 10 greatest pitchers of all time he wont be on a lot of peoples list closers are a novelty who only pitch 1 inning a game. If you were to put verlander in that spot or kershaw how good would they be you think but hey w/eComment -
yeah he has the best era but its 1 INNING AT A TIME so if you put your top 10 pitchers of all time hes 1 of themComment -
Yanks win zero World Series without him
He closed every tight playoff gameComment -
i guess he wasnt dominant
1. Mariano Rivera (19, 43) 205 R 2. Pedro Martinez (18) 154 R 3. Jim Devlin (5) 150 R 4. Lefty Grove+ (17) 148 L 5. Walter Johnson+ (21) 147 R Hoyt Wilhelm+ (21) 147 R Smoky Joe Wood (14) 147 R 8. Clayton Kershaw (6, 25) 146 L Dan Quisenberry (12) 146 R 10. Ed Walsh+ (14) 145 R 11. Roger Clemens (24) 143 R 12. Addie Joss+ (9) 142 R Brandon Webb (7) 142 R 14. Trevor Hoffman (18) 141 R Comment -
Calm down guys. Deuce just started following baseball when Miggy was on the triple crown hunt.Comment
