Penalties should be reviewable

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  • poochiecollins
    SBR MVP
    • 01-27-09
    • 1782

    #1
    Penalties should be reviewable
    Questioning Why NFL Penalties Can't be Reviewed or Challenged

    Pass Interference, Holding Among the Things that Should Be Challengeable

    Steve Helmer, Yahoo! Contributor Network
    Dec 5, 2007


    A while back, I applauded the National Football League's decision to make instant replay challenges a permanent fixture. The league recognized the game has gotten faster. So fast, in fact, that referees are going to




    make mistakes, and teams should have the ability to get those mistakes corrected.

    The one thing I still won't applaud is the league's decision to prevent teams from challenging penalties.

    There are a couple of things that will improve or decrease a team's chances of winning a game. One is turnovers. The other is penalties. A bad pass interference call in the end zone (which results in the team getting a first down at the goal line) or a touchdown that is negated because of a phantom holding call on the offensive line has just as much impact, if not more, than a referee mistakenly thinking a player fumbled the football prior to being tackled. Yet, the latter is reviewable and the other two aren't.

    I've heard the excuses. If teams were allowed to challenge every time a flag was thrown, the games would take too long. Or, my favorite, penalties are judgment calls; and you can't challenge a referee's judgment (or something to that effect). And, I still don't buy them.

    First, it won't slow down the game any more than the penalties themselves. By rule, a coach only gets to use two challenges per game (and a third one if he wins the first two). In addition, the team loses a time out if they don't win the challenge. This wouldn't change and you aren't going to see coaches wasting the challenges on a flag if it doesn't affect the score of the game or give an opposing team a huge advantage. Even if it did slow down the game; it's still worth it if it can prevent controversy. As a fan, which would you rather see; your team getting a bad call overturned during the game or an apology letter from the league a few days later?

    As for the whole "judgment call" thing; that is the worst excuse I've ever heard. First, every call made on the field is a judgment call. Did he have his knee down before the ball crossed the goal line?




    Did he have possession of the ball before he went out of bounds? Those are judgments an official has to make and those can be challenged.

    Secondly, when an official throws a flag, they aren't working solely from their own opinion of whether a penalty was committed, they have guidelines to use. The NFL rulebook is actually very detailed about what is legal and what is illegal. In fact, if you look under pass interference, you'll see clear, precise descriptions of what counts as pass interference and what doesn't. If an analyst in the press box can look at an instant replay, recite the rule and state why they think it was a bad call, then why can't a referee, with a better understanding of the rules, do the same? Again, the game moves at a fast pace. There's no shame in thinking they saw something illegal and, upon further review, realized they were mistaken.

    Referees are only human and are going to make mistakes. As a fan, I want to see teams win because they deserve to; not because of human error. While it's not perfect either, the replay technology is available to help prevent bad calls from changing the outcome of a game. Why not use its full potential?
    ...
    16
    Yes, there's principally no difference between penalties and other reviewable plays.
    0%
    8
    Either way, as the pros and cons are about equal.
    0%
    5
    No, I like games being decided by referees instead of players.
    0%
    3
  • thebertshow
    SBR Wise Guy
    • 08-30-07
    • 645

    #2
    I don't see why not. The coach has a limited number of challenges and if that's how he wants to use them, let him.
    Comment
    • Powderguy
      SBR Hall of Famer
      • 09-18-09
      • 6939

      #3
      Originally posted by thebertshow
      I don't see why not. The coach has a limited number of challenges and if that's how he wants to use them, let him.
      You can't challenge penalties anyway lol
      Comment
      • poochiecollins
        SBR MVP
        • 01-27-09
        • 1782

        #4
        How would challenging a penalty be different than challenging any other play? I don't see how anyone can disagree with me on this.
        Comment
        • CaptainPrice
          SBR MVP
          • 10-29-09
          • 1064

          #5
          just got to make it quick, cant review every play...
          Comment
          • CaptainPrice
            SBR MVP
            • 10-29-09
            • 1064

            #6
            Originally posted by poochiecollins
            How would challenging a penalty be different than challenging any other play? I don't see how anyone can disagree with me on this.
            I would like this
            also dont take away challenges that you win
            Love IT!
            Comment
            • slacker00
              SBR Posting Legend
              • 10-06-05
              • 12262

              #7
              Yeah, why not? As long as the coaches still have the same amount of challenges, it shouldn't slow down the game at all.

              I think it would be good for the game because it could help clarify the rules of the game for the casual fan during these challenges. I really enjoyed this season's Fox coverage when they'd bring in the former NFL vice president of officiating Mike Pereira, who'd explain the challenges in detail based on NFL rules. I consider myself a very experienced NFL fan and I still miss details about certain rules of the game. I still can't figure out that friggin' "tuck rule". lmao
              Comment
              • GunShard
                SBR Posting Legend
                • 03-05-10
                • 10032

                #8
                Let them review penalties.
                Comment
                • icancount2one
                  SBR MVP
                  • 01-05-10
                  • 1507

                  #9
                  I think reviewing penalties would be fine. I just think we need to return to the standard of "indisputable visual evidence".
                  Walter forgot... when you're desperate's when you got no choice.
                  Comment
                  • falconticket
                    SBR MVP
                    • 09-05-10
                    • 3414

                    #10
                    Just more for these guys to screw up. I say no.
                    Comment
                    • oiler
                      SBR Hall of Famer
                      • 06-06-09
                      • 6585

                      #11
                      then the games will be too long and boring..the fact that using computers are a good thing but only like it if it makes a diifference in the outcome of the game
                      Comment
                      • jennahazeplays
                        Restricted User
                        • 03-15-10
                        • 474

                        #12
                        completely agree, dont think itll ever happen though
                        Comment
                        • uhuhahah
                          SBR Wise Guy
                          • 10-06-09
                          • 588

                          #13
                          absolutely.
                          Comment
                          • poochiecollins
                            SBR MVP
                            • 01-27-09
                            • 1782

                            #14
                            Originally posted by CaptainPrice
                            just got to make it quick, cant review every play...
                            Originally posted by oiler
                            then the games will be too long and boring..the fact that using computers are a good thing but only like it if it makes a diifference in the outcome of the game
                            I believe you guys are confusing the prospect of more challenges slowing down the game with the shitty way the NFL conducts challenge reviews. It's silly that anyone watching the game on television usually knows whether a call was correct or not within seconds while referees take up to several minutes. A separate group of people should be responsible for challenge reviews, which is how the NCAA does it I believe?
                            Comment
                            • MoneyM1ke
                              SBR Wise Guy
                              • 12-14-09
                              • 668

                              #15
                              Would be nice but never gona happen.
                              Comment
                              • oiler
                                SBR Hall of Famer
                                • 06-06-09
                                • 6585

                                #16
                                got about as much of a chance of happening as jj getting a girlfriend and u know that wont happen
                                Comment
                                • rem sleep
                                  SBR MVP
                                  • 10-04-10
                                  • 1238

                                  #17
                                  I think its a great idea. But they would have to work out how many times you can do it a game and if it affects the ability to review plays. If you are right about a bad call or penalty than it should NOT count against your total challenges.
                                  Comment
                                  • Jeffito11
                                    SBR Hustler
                                    • 11-02-10
                                    • 63

                                    #18
                                    Too often penalties are judgement calls, it would be rare that there would be irrefutable evidence to overturn a blown call. Can you imagine if fouls in basketball would be reviewable? It would be a big mess. I don't ever see this being changed in football, or any sport for that matter.
                                    Comment
                                    • Blax0r
                                      SBR Wise Guy
                                      • 10-13-10
                                      • 688

                                      #19
                                      I'd for allowing penalties to overturned, but not so much for the other way (ie, a coach thinks the tackle was holding his DE and throws the flag).
                                      Comment
                                      • zoso11871
                                        SBR Sharp
                                        • 01-04-10
                                        • 452

                                        #20
                                        I don't see how it would be a bad thing.
                                        Comment
                                        • azn624
                                          SBR MVP
                                          • 06-29-09
                                          • 2771

                                          #21
                                          Could be very time consuming and I already do not like watching replays unless it was a great play.
                                          Comment
                                          • Jeffito11
                                            SBR Hustler
                                            • 11-02-10
                                            • 63

                                            #22
                                            How can you overturn a pass interference penalty? Even if it was a lame call, there is no way I see them changing it
                                            Comment
                                            • poochiecollins
                                              SBR MVP
                                              • 01-27-09
                                              • 1782

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by rem sleep
                                              If you are right about a bad call or penalty than it should NOT count against your total challenges.
                                              I agree, that's another flaw with the current NFL replay system.

                                              Originally posted by Jeffito11
                                              Too often penalties are judgement calls, it would be rare that there would be irrefutable evidence to overturn a blown call. Can you imagine if fouls in basketball would be reviewable? It would be a big mess. I don't ever see this being changed in football, or any sport for that matter.
                                              Read the article I quoted before posting.
                                              Comment
                                              • poochiecollins
                                                SBR MVP
                                                • 01-27-09
                                                • 1782

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Jeffito11
                                                Too often penalties are judgement calls, it would be rare that there would be irrefutable evidence to overturn a blown call. Can you imagine if fouls in basketball would be reviewable? It would be a big mess. I don't ever see this being changed in football, or any sport for that matter.
                                                Apples and oranges; we're talking football only, not basketball. Each team gets ~80 possessions in an NBA game, and the season's so long, smoothing over most of the of human error.
                                                Comment
                                                • poochiecollins
                                                  SBR MVP
                                                  • 01-27-09
                                                  • 1782

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by azn624
                                                  Could be very time consuming and I already do not like watching replays unless it was a great play.
                                                  Read the rest of the thread before posting next time; this was already addressed.
                                                  Comment
                                                  • poochiecollins
                                                    SBR MVP
                                                    • 01-27-09
                                                    • 1782

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Jeffito11
                                                    How can you overturn a pass interference penalty? Even if it was a lame call, there is no way I see them changing it
                                                    Read the quoted article before posting.

                                                    I'm guessing that there's a strong negative correlation between those against penalties being reviewable in NFL games and IQ, ugh.
                                                    Comment
                                                    • Jeffito11
                                                      SBR Hustler
                                                      • 11-02-10
                                                      • 63

                                                      #27
                                                      smb. Players make questionable contact all the time when running their routes, sometimes they are called, sometimes they let them play. There is no black and white in pass interference, it is often a grey area. The ref makes a call one way or the other, and if reviewed, would almost always stand. Often times there are plays challenged that would have been upheld no matter what the ruling was because it is not obvious one way or the other. This would happen constantly if penalties were reviewable. Some penalties like offsides or false starts would be easier to overturn. But interference, holding, illegal contact, etc would be unlikely to be overturned.

                                                      I'd wager there is a negative correlation between those that insult others that disagree with their opinion and maturity, ugh.
                                                      Comment
                                                      • hothandsmgee
                                                        SBR Sharp
                                                        • 06-08-09
                                                        • 371

                                                        #28
                                                        there is holding and pass inter on pretty much every play the only reason there arent constantly flags are because those plays can be subjective
                                                        Comment
                                                        • maja
                                                          SBR Rookie
                                                          • 02-21-11
                                                          • 10

                                                          #29
                                                          The game should be as it is now

                                                          if they use more technology it will destroy the spirit of the game
                                                          Comment
                                                          • icancount2one
                                                            SBR MVP
                                                            • 01-05-10
                                                            • 1507

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Jeffito11
                                                            smb. Players make questionable contact all the time when running their routes, sometimes they are called, sometimes they let them play. There is no black and white in pass interference, it is often a grey area. The ref makes a call one way or the other, and if reviewed, would almost always stand. Often times there are plays challenged that would have been upheld no matter what the ruling was because it is not obvious one way or the other. This would happen constantly if penalties were reviewable. Some penalties like offsides or false starts would be easier to overturn. But interference, holding, illegal contact, etc would be unlikely to be overturned.

                                                            I'd wager there is a negative correlation between those that insult others that disagree with their opinion and maturity, ugh.
                                                            So if you throw that red flag, and review shows it's a grey area, the ref comes back onto the field and says "the ruling stands". You lose a timeout, and your fans get pissed.
                                                            Walter forgot... when you're desperate's when you got no choice.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • poochiecollins
                                                              SBR MVP
                                                              • 01-27-09
                                                              • 1782

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by maja
                                                              The game should be as it is now if they use more technology it will destroy the spirit of the game
                                                              Since you clearly would be against the use of replay challenges at all, explain to us how current use of replay has "destroy[ed] the spirit of the game."
                                                              Comment
                                                              • poochiecollins
                                                                SBR MVP
                                                                • 01-27-09
                                                                • 1782

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Jeffito11
                                                                smb. Players make questionable contact all the time when running their routes, sometimes they are called, sometimes they let them play. There is no black and white in pass interference, it is often a grey area.
                                                                Search for an e-copy of NFL rules and illustrate to us how the description of what constitutes pass interference is in fact so vague that it contradicts the article I quoted. Otherwise, I'll take the professional writer's claim over the person who tells me to suck their balls while calling me immature.

                                                                There was an offensive pass interference call against the Ravens in the BAL-PIT playoff game that was -clearly- defensive pass interference against the Steelers on replay. Instead of being a 30+ yard penalty favoring Baltimore, it was -10; this bad call was significant enough that there's a fair chance it changed the outcome of the game, while it easily would've been overturned with replay.

                                                                The ref makes a call one way or the other, and if reviewed, would almost always stand.
                                                                This makes no sense. What's the difference between a hard-to-tell possible fumble and hard-to-tell possible penalty? A decent percentage of challenges overturn the play on the field now, and it's only as low as it is because coaches often have to rush before getting good replay looks.

                                                                Often times there are plays challenged that would have been upheld no matter what the ruling was because it is not obvious one way or the other. This would happen constantly if penalties were reviewable.
                                                                Yeah, because those 2-3 coaches challenges per game would magically drag out the game all of a sudden, considering I'm also proposing that replays be reviewed similar to college's?
                                                                Comment
                                                                • poochiecollins
                                                                  SBR MVP
                                                                  • 01-27-09
                                                                  • 1782

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by hothandsmgee
                                                                  there is holding and pass inter on pretty much every play the only reason there arent constantly flags are because those plays can be subjective
                                                                  Jesus...
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • Joszan7
                                                                    SBR High Roller
                                                                    • 01-17-10
                                                                    • 122

                                                                    #34
                                                                    I agree, I think penalties should be reviewable.
                                                                    Comment
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