[DJK]

I'm at Caesars casino in Atlantic city and I just got done playing my Pai Gow Tiles game and made $9 after being down $200+.

I was heading back to my room but decided to stop by the $100 blackjack tables in the high roller pit to see what's going on.

This guy who had about $10,000 in purple chips (2 x 10 chip stacks) was losing pretty bad betting $500 a hand when I stopped by earlier about 1/2 hour ago and he was getting really mad. So, I left the pit because I'm sure he didn't want me there watching.

When I went back to see how he was doing, he had more than triple of what he had at 6 x 10 chip stacks of the purple chips and he was betting $3,000 a hand.

Here is the crazy part.

He had Ace 3 for 4 or 14. The dealer had 6 up. He doubled down as I would have and got a Queen for a total of 14.

The dealer had 5 in the hole for a total of 11 and then drew out 3, 2, Ace for a total of 17. So, he lost.

Instead of taking his $6,000 total bet, she paid him $6,000.

That's a total loss of $12,000 for the casino.

The player kept on looking at me to see if I was going to say anything, but of course I wouldn't say anything.

Either the dealer is in the sham with the player or she was sleep dealing.

The way I saw it, there is no way it was a mistake by the dealer as it was just too obvious.

I've seen it all in 30 years but not this bad.

[stackz125]

They will make him pay back if he didn’t leave right away

The cameras will see it

[ChuckyTheGoat]

They will make him pay back if he didn’t leave right away

The cameras will see it

Good story. I have seen 21 mis-pays. Not too often, but it happens.

One hand sticks out to me. For the life of me, I wish I remembered the exact cards. I think I had T4, drew an Ace, drew another Ace and then bricked out on a 6.

Dealer looks at the hand and makes like I discovered plutonium. He even comments "Wow." He leaves my hand up and plays his hand, then he pays me. I look away, I don't look back at the cards. I want the payout to be quick with no re-count.

Sometimes, dealers do struggle on the multi-card hands that include an Ace. Something about the Hard count vs the Soft count. Dealers work long hours and they are sometimes not on top of their game.

A few basic comments on this:

1) It's not cheating to accept the payout.
2) It's not your job to do their job.
3) If you're travelling, it's important to stack up and cash out soon. NOT immediately b/c that might cause a scene.
4) If you stay at the table, like stack says, the Eye in the Sky will review the hand. And they'll come back to re-claim their $$.
5) This is potentially a bad situation. If they re-claim the $$, you now look like the Bad Guy. As if it was your responsibility to do the Dealer's job.

If you're a local repeat customer, it's a little different. You might even want to come clean to avoid problems in the future.

That's my take on it. But it does happen (occasionally).

[DJK]

I wasn't tired, so I went down to check and he lost it all which was about $30,000+ when I left earlier. He moved to the 2nd table as there are only 2 tables open and he took out a marker for 10K and he was still losing before I left for good to come back to my room.

The dealer who paid him wasn't there anymore and there were now two pit bosses watching over him as he was the only one playing in the pit. What makes no sense is that no pit boss was watching him at the time the mistake happened. There was one pit boss, but she was just walking around somewhere else in the pit and she wasn't paying attention to the game.

Had she watched the table, that mistake would not have been allowed; especially in the tune of $12,000. It didn't matter in the end as he lost it all.

I don't know why I waste time watching other people play when I should be capping the college games for this weekend. I need to focus!

[mjsuax13]

I wasn't tired, so I went down to check and he lost it all which was about $30,000+ when I left earlier. He moved to the 2nd table as there are only 2 tables open and he took out a marker for 10K and he was still losing before I left for good to come back to my room.

The dealer who paid him wasn't there anymore and there were now two pit bosses watching over him as he was the only one playing in the pit. What makes no sense is that no pit boss was watching him at the time the mistake happened. There was one pit boss, but she was just walking around somewhere else in the pit and she wasn't paying attention to the game.

Had she watched the table, that mistake would not have been allowed; especially in the tune of $12,000. It didn't matter in the end as he lost it all.

I don't know why I waste time watching other people play when I should be capping the college games for this weekend. I need to focus!

Pure curiosity. It’s interesting to watch how people play/respond. Human nature at its finest. Even the most disciplined gambler will falter to their weaknesses. A group of clients and I last year watched a dude lose damn near $1 million playing blackjack in the Bellagio High Limit Room. He was very even keeled on the outside but you could also tell he was pressing. Pretty wild but it’s his money. Some of these casinos the pit bosses and dealers are half asleep.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

It's definitely a Social Experiment to observe what goes on in a casino pit.

Let's start with a distinction on the game. I'll make a delineation: Craps vs Blackjack.

Craps is an interesting game:
1) Virtually impossible to beat.
2) That said, it's a small House Edge, compared to most other bets in the casino.
3) A croupier (or Craps employee) has to be quite knowledgable and alert.
4) The action on a craps table is pretty amazing. Payouts at various odds.
...Because of all action and $ amounts in play, it's not unusual to see a Pit Boss exclusively monitoring the craps table.

They want the payouts to be correct. A lot to keep track of.

They don't want anyone betting late or capping stacks. One potential Craps exploit that I've read about but have no skill at: *Dice-setting.

In theory, the craps-roll is random. But is it?

The foam on the inside of the table is designed to randomize the dice-roll. Also, the dice-roll has to be beyond a certain point on the table. A short-roll may be called out as "No roll."

On dice-setting, the theory is that holding the starting dice in a certain way...and minimizing the spin...can produce an outcome that's less than random. Guys practice this. Some claim that they can do it well enough to minimize the probability of rolling a 7.

Anyway, food for thought. I'll talk more about 21 later.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

OK, some brief comments about the 21 pit. There are really two functions of the 21 pit:
1) Social - anything related to dealing with the player.
2) Protecting the profits.

See the two items I list above. My distinction is very easy. Only time I've ever had problems at a 21 table: it was against a Male pit guy aged 35 to 55.

The stereotype is that a middle-aged male is there to make sure the House makes money. It would be like an accountant working for a company. They want to make sure the profits keep coming.

A male in their prime working years is going to view a Counter as a threat to their bottom line. They don't like it. They identify it and address it pretty quickly. Their basic retort is to say that they don't want your action. I have seen pit-critters count out the unplayed cards to confirm their suspicions.

Males under age 35 are too inexperienced to sniff this out. Males over 55 are running down on energy. They just want to ease into retirement.

Female pit bosses view their job more to Item 1. Their job is to deal with social aspects. They help the young dealers. They confirm player-cards. If the player is a Whale, they make sure that player is comped and taken care of.

Female pits are not so mathematically-inclined. They view the game as a revenue-generator for the house. And they don't give it a second thought.

[mjsuax13]

OK, some brief comments about the 21 pit. There are really two functions of the 21 pit:
1) Social - anything related to dealing with the player.
2) Protecting the profits.

See the two items I list above. My distinction is very easy. Only time I've ever had problems at a 21 table: it was against a Male pit guy aged 35 to 55.

The stereotype is that a middle-aged male is there to make sure the House makes money. It would be like an accountant working for a company. They want to make sure the profits keep coming.

A male in their prime working years is going to view a Counter as a threat to their bottom line. They don't like it. They identify it and address it pretty quickly. Their basic retort is to say that they don't want your action. I have seen pit-critters count out the unplayed cards to confirm their suspicions.

Males under age 35 are too inexperienced to sniff this out. Males over 55 are running down on energy. They just want to ease into retirement.

Female pit bosses view their job more to Item 1. Their job is to deal with social aspects. They help the young dealers. They confirm player-cards. If the player is a Whale, they make sure that player is comped and taken care of.

Female pits are not so mathematically-inclined. They view the game as a revenue-generator for the house. And they don't give it a second thought.

Well said. There is a clear distinction in the experience of playing/table based on the dealer.

[gauchojake]

Most dealers can barely count how many fingers and toes they have. I've had many instances where I won a hand and the dealer announces push or tried to take my chips.

When the old Stardust was at the end, I had a dealer who just didn't care and paid us on losing hands that were close. It was hilarious. They comped us steak dinners to boot.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Most dealers can barely count how many fingers and toes they have. I've had many instances where I won a hand and the dealer announces push or tried to take my chips.

When the old Stardust was at the end, I had a dealer who just didn't care and paid us on losing hands that were close. It was hilarious. They comped us steak dinners to boot.

Haha. Salud, jake.

Yes, I've seen "sawdust joints" where the dealers made a lot of errors on:
1) exposing base-card, and/or
2) mis-paying.

Per Jake's comment, yes:
*If they OVER-pay, that's their responsibility.
*If they try to take your $$, balk at them.
...Only counter-argument I've ever heard on this = if it's only $5, let them take it. Don't give the House reason to monitor this dealer if they're going to give it back to you and then some.

[DJK]

Pure curiosity. It’s interesting to watch how people play/respond. Human nature at its finest. Even the most disciplined gambler will falter to their weaknesses. A group of clients and I last year watched a dude lose damn near $1 million playing blackjack in the Bellagio High Limit Room. He was very even keeled on the outside but you could also tell he was pressing. Pretty wild but it’s his money. Some of these casinos the pit bosses and dealers are half asleep.

When I first saw him playing, he was playing one hand only at $500 a hand with another player who was also betting about $500 a hand.

They were both losing badly where no matter what the dealer had as an up card, she was drawing out instead of breaking and beating them both. Having 20 wasn't safe and you'd be lucky if you pushed with 20. At one point, she got a blackjack every other hand for 3 in a row. The other guy tried two hands for a total of 3 hands and it made no difference and as a matter of fact, it got even worse and they both lost like 10 in a row.

The other guy was cursing and left the table with only a few hundreds. He yelled out loud that he was getting abused and he didn't need it. LOL

This guy stuck around and that was a mistake since he was getting upset and he was pressing by betting 2X to 3X as soon as he won and there was a big problem with that strategy since he couldn't win 2 in a row.

With blackjack, there is no way in hell you can make money if you cannot win at least 2 or more in a row somewhere. He could lose 5 in a row but he couldn't even win 2 in a row. He was losing all his press bets, so he was draining pretty quickly.

If anything, he should have went to another casino like Bally's which is right next door instead of sticking around at Caesars and getting slaughtered like that. Either that, walk out to the $25 tables outside where there were at least 4 of them and try his luck there.

It's the event like this that made me stop playing blackjack. When dealers get hot, they get hot and you lose so fast.

At least with sportsbetting, I get to decide what I bet on and if I lose then it's on me. It's the same with baccarat.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

21 is a game of conditional probability. The runs happen +/-.

If anything, you exit a shoe after multiple Blackjacks. Because the good cards have been extracted.

[mjsuax13]

Most dealers can barely count how many fingers and toes they have. I've had many instances where I won a hand and the dealer announces push or tried to take my chips.

When the old Stardust was at the end, I had a dealer who just didn't care and paid us on losing hands that were close. It was hilarious. They comped us steak dinners to boot.

I miss the old Stardust.

[stevenash]

I had a blackjack once for couple of hundred once get nullified on a 'misdeal' years ago.
Dealer bypassed a player.

I told the pit boss who eventually get me paid.

[stevenash]

I miss the old Stardust.

Remember the sports library 'research' room there?

When I was 21 I was in town when the Rebels croaked Duke.
The strip was a complete sell out.
Only room I could get was one of those side rooms in the motel by the old truck parking lot.
Now that was a party night.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I had a blackjack once for couple of hundred once get nullified on a 'misdeal' years ago.
Dealer bypassed a player.

I told the pit boss who eventually get me paid.

Mis-deals are normally supposed to be played as a benefit to the Player. If the dealer draws out of order:
*The House normally gives the player an option to
a) pull back their $$, OR
b) play the hand as is.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Mis-deals are normally supposed to be played as a benefit to the Player. If the dealer draws out of order:
*The House normally gives the player an option to
a) pull back their $$, OR
b) play the hand as is.

I sometimes see the dealer play thru on marginal player hands. IE, in face-up games, the dealer assumes a Player stand on A7 or A8.

This is a very bad dealer practice. They'll say "the player always stands on those hands."

...This should be an obvious spot to ask for a re-do if the Hand result is not to your liking.

[johnnyvegas13]

Lol not the story I expected when I clicked

my guess is dealer got fired

[stevenash]

Mis-deals are normally supposed to be played as a benefit to the Player. If the dealer draws out of order:
*The House normally gives the player an option to
a) pull back their $$, OR
b) play the hand as is.

Yeah, that dealer was a newbie.
It got straightened out.

[DJK]

I just came back from playing $100 minimum baccarat at Caesars.

Whether it was intentional or not, one player scammed the casino for $500 and it was pretty sneaky.

It helped that the dealer was pretty much sleeping and she couldn't tell what each chip stack size was when most dealers just know how many chips there are in a stack when they grab it with their palm.

That player had a chip rack filled with 5 rows of $100 black chips. If it's filled to the max for each row, then it should be 20 chips per row for $2,000 each.

He wanted to color up and pulled each stack out of the rack and put them on the felt.

The dealer is supposed to break down at least one stack to confirm how many there are in the stacks. She didn't because I'm sure she just assumed that they were 20 each or $2,000 each x 5 for $10,000. She handed over 2 x $5,000 grey chips to the player without breaking down at least one of the stacks.

Then, a pit boss comes over and tells the dealer to break a stack down for the camera.

She does it right in-front of me as I was on the table playing and I couldn't believe what she did.

She broke a stack down by 5 chips each, but for whatever the reason she took the last remaining chips in the stack to a side instead of lining up all the broken down stacks next to each other. She is supposed to break down one of the small stacks to show how many chips there are in that stack and she didn't do that either.

What's even worse was that the pit boss was looking right at it and he couldn't tell either.

There were clearly only 4 chips in the last small stack but neither noticed it.

Then, she just stacked them right into one pile and said 20, but it wasn't.

So, the player basically handed over 5 stacks of $1,900 worth of $100 chips for a total of $9,500 only and yet the dealer gave back $10,000.

That's the easiest $500 he ever made.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

DJ, dealer mistakes do happen. To your point, sometimes it's un-believable.

I'll repeat my basic stance on this:
1) If you THINK the dealer mis-paid, don't look at your hand a 2nd time.
...I did this when I was young. Looked at the dealer, I didn't know what to do.
...If they overpay, take it. You also don't want to make the dealer look bad.

2) I saw a poker-hand that's hard to believe. Flop comes 66K with two spades.
...Player on Left has 6x for Trips.
...Player on Right has two spades. He's on a Flush Draw.
...River is the King (spades).

The Dealer goes about paying the Right player with a made Flush.
...Left player doesn't correct him. He doesn't just have Trips, he has a Full House.
...Payout is completed.
...Someone at the table corrects the Dealer. But both the Dealer and FH player didn't see it.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

One more quick story:

*I've seen the chip-count work to Player dis-advantage as well.

The Dealer is sometimes not as thorough as they should be on the color-up.
...I actually hate coloring up. Some dealers take too long.
...If the Dealer does a quick color-up and shoves it into the bin, that money is likely gone. Unless it's a big $$ amount, they won't bother going to the tape. And they do make mistakes.

[captrobey]

I was at Caesars a few years back at a BJ table. The dealer left and in comes a Midget. I guess they preferred to be called Little person . I think they were doing this showing Caesars cares about Special Needs people. The little guys name was Ned and he did not even stand on a box. He started reaching up all you could see was the top of his head and his little hands reaching up grasping at anything he could reach. He was throwing cards all Over and knocking drinks and chips all Over the place. At one point Ned gave me 30 cards and i still won . Everyone there the players the Pit bosses and some boardwalk homeless were all clapping for Ned it was his time. I will never forget Ned.

[Seattle Slew]

I don't know what dealers make, but it's not enough, IMO. Incredibly high-pressure job. You got players in nasty moods, pit bosses watching your every move, and you're dealing with thousands of dollars in chips every hand. Easy to see mistakes happening when they're also required to move quickly.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I don't know what dealers make, but it's not enough, IMO. Incredibly high-pressure job. You got players in nasty moods, pit bosses watching your every move, and you're dealing with thousands of dollars in chips every hand. Easy to see mistakes happening when they're also required to move quickly.

They don't make a lot. Similar to someone waiting tables: *Modest salary, where they expect to make some $$ on tips.

[DJK]

I don't know what dealers make, but it's not enough, IMO. Incredibly high-pressure job. You got players in nasty moods, pit bosses watching your every move, and you're dealing with thousands of dollars in chips every hand. Easy to see mistakes happening when they're also required to move quickly.

They make a decent amount.

This was back in early 2000's like 2003.

I was talking to a dealer and he said him and his wife who are both dealers at Hilton casino in Atlantic City made at least $45,000 a year per, so that's $90,000 between the two. For 2003, that's a decent amount.

But, the waitresses at the Borgata buffet make almost double that.

I asked a waitress there and she said she made $85,000 a year. Not only that, they get a free meal everyday right before they close, so it's like getting paid $96,000 a year since the buffet costs $43 for dinner. In reality, it's more like making over $100K since who reports honestly on tips?

[DJK]

It may be hard to believe that the Borgata buffet waitresses make that kind of money, but from what I see whenever I eat there it's probably more than $85,000.

Each waitress covers like 6 to 8 tables. All they do is take the drink orders, clear used plates, and clean the table for the next customers.

The minimum they will make off one table is $5 (and that's from the people who are the cheapest in tipping), but it's usually more than that.

I tip between $12 to $16 and sometimes $20 depending on how much of mess we make.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

It may be hard to believe that the Borgata buffet waitresses make that kind of money, but from what I see whenever I eat there it's probably more than $85,000.

Each waitress covers like 6 to 8 tables. All they do is take the drink orders, clear used plates, and clean the table for the next customers.

The minimum they will make off one table is $5 (and that's from the people who are the cheapest in tipping), but it's usually more than that.

I tip between $12 to $16 and sometimes $20 depending on how much of mess we make.

If a Waitress is fast and provides good service, I believe that. I don't believe the base salary is THAT much. It's mostly income via Tips.

I heard a similar story about Cocktail waitresses in Las Vegas. Their base salary can't be too much. Imagine that they make three rounds per hour on drinks. MOST customers are on vacation and not too stingy. $1 or $2 per tip adds up. I heard that they can expect to make $80,000 to $100,000.

[DJK]

If a Waitress is fast and provides good service, I believe that. I don't believe the base salary is THAT much. It's mostly income via Tips.

I heard a similar story about Cocktail waitresses in Las Vegas. Their base salary can't be too much. Imagine that they make three rounds per hour on drinks. MOST customers are on vacation and not too stingy. $1 or $2 per tip adds up. I heard that they can expect to make $80,000 to $100,000.

I'm sure the Borgata cocktail waitresses make a ton too. I'm going to ask one when I'm there this weekend to play.

Minimum $1 a drink and they carry around 10 to 15 drinks a round where they go around at least 4 times an hour.

They tip much higher in the high roller pit where they give out $5 to $25 chips as tips.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I'm sure the Borgata cocktail waitresses make a ton too. I'm going to ask one when I'm there this weekend to play.

Minimum $1 a drink and they carry around 10 to 15 drinks a round where they go around at least 4 times an hour.

They tip much higher in the high roller pit where they give out $5 to $25 chips as tips.

Yeah, for sure. They do well.

I used to play some at Red Rock in Vegas. A nice resort, the cocktail waitresses look like they came out of a modeling agency. Of course, guys might tip more generously if they (foolishly) think they might have a shot with said Waitress, LOL.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

DJ, since you got me started on casinos and tipping, I have another story for you.

I'm travelling and playing Blackjack in casinos. I'm in a smallish casino in Arizona. The 21 rules are pretty good.

If you ask any waitress that serves me, I think they'd say that I'm more than generous. On poker/blackjack, it's a little different. You're trying to overcome the House Edge.

I tip at poker/21, but I don't want to cough up any profits I earned. So, I'm frugal there.

At this particular stop, I start running good in a Heads-up game. I normally use a tame spread to not build a lot of scrutiny. I start accumulating profits. Red chips become Green chips etc.

I'm taking the Green chips off the table. I stick them in my shirt-pocket and into my coat-pocket. The dealer I had was fast and sharp. I start giving her modest tips, white $1 singles.

The run keeps going. I'm hitting some big hands. She's a smart dealer, she knows I'm counting. Her pace is very good, because I think quickly and want the game to keep moving. She was easily dealing 120 hands per hour, I'm now tipping her $5 red chips.

I know my session is close to close. I'm sure I tipped her > $50 for less than an hour of play. I am cashing out and coloring up. Pit bosses comes over and looks bemused. "Where are all the green chips?"

I cleaned out most of the greens on her bin. I color up and go to the cage. Cash out for $1800 on a very small buy-in of $200.

[JIBBBY]

The Dice are always weighed down on one side in casinos. Crap out on those tables. Casino's need to make money. Got snake eyes? ; )

[Dr. Luke]

Weird story to stumble across here. The same exact thing happened to me in the pit at Caesars AC about 25 years ago. Doubled down on a $1000 hand and I don’t remember the cards but I lost and the dealer paid me. I looked around and no one said anything. Played two more hands and left. Was waiting at valet for my car and thought for sure security was going to walk out any second. Nothing. Side note to the story, Rosemary Homeister the jockey and Jose Ferrer were at the next table playing also.

[DJK]

DJ, since you got me started on casinos and tipping, I have another story for you.

I'm travelling and playing Blackjack in casinos. I'm in a smallish casino in Arizona. The 21 rules are pretty good.

If you ask any waitress that serves me, I think they'd say that I'm more than generous. On poker/blackjack, it's a little different. You're trying to overcome the House Edge.

I tip at poker/21, but I don't want to cough up any profits I earned. So, I'm frugal there.

At this particular stop, I start running good in a Heads-up game. I normally use a tame spread to not build a lot of scrutiny. I start accumulating profits. Red chips become Green chips etc.

I'm taking the Green chips off the table. I stick them in my shirt-pocket and into my coat-pocket. The dealer I had was fast and sharp. I start giving her modest tips, white $1 singles.

The run keeps going. I'm hitting some big hands. She's a smart dealer, she knows I'm counting. Her pace is very good, because I think quickly and want the game to keep moving. She was easily dealing 120 hands per hour, I'm now tipping her $5 red chips.

I know my session is close to close. I'm sure I tipped her > $50 for less than an hour of play. I am cashing out and coloring up. Pit bosses comes over and looks bemused. "Where are all the green chips?"

I cleaned out most of the greens on her bin. I color up and go to the cage. Cash out for $1800 on a very small buy-in of $200.

You had a good run to win that much in blackjack. I've had some great runs to win a boatload playing blackjack (>$15,000+), but they were really rare.

Some 40 years that I've played in casinos, I never bothered to do counting.

Now, it's mostly Tiles and Baccarat for me.

A light bulb went on in my head last night about baccarat.

I noticed something that may be the secret to winning in baccarat consistenly.

I'm going to go through a whole bunch of shoes that I have pictures of and apply what I think is the secret to those.

If the secret strategy that I noticed last night wins in every one of those shoes, then it's going to be free money...

[JIBBBY]

Loaded dice!