I can already see it now... if Shogun puts on a less than stellar performance and loses, everyone throws out excuses about how he would have beat Jones at 100% and obviously looked off in the octagon (cardio, his knee, etc). Then the rematch threads start popping up everywhere. Or if Bones wins by a decision, I'm sure it's b/c Shogun was robbed. I don't know why people are so sensitive when it comes to former Pride fighters or legends. It tends to shatter hopes and dreams when they lose and it just seems hard to accept. I just have a gut feeling that even if Bones wins here, he'll still be called overhyped, overrated, etc.
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i`m trying to picture in my mind rua blowing through(i mean obliterating)bader and matyushenko like jones did.......and i can`t see it....i see both as very tough fights for rua.....
still,this is one of those fights in which the odds make rua seem worth the shot...
rua can win,but,balls to the wall,jones has too many advantages,imo..
the new breed stakes their claim yet again..Comment -
With your self-proclaimed ability to see the future you must be a pretty good punter. Seriously though, whining that "everyone" will throw out excuses is a very simplistic generalisation.
Shogun was clearly unfit against Forrest and Coleman in the UFC, they aren't excuses for losing they are obvious reasons he didn't perform to the level we saw before he came to the UFC and has performed at since returning to 100% against Chuck and Machida 2x
Probably because these people were following the sport before you knew what it was and form their opinions from watching the fights and understanding the historical context rather than being blindly influenced by UFC promo's and Dana and Joe's rants about who the flavour of the month/best is.Originally posted by sirchadwick1
While looking impressive he's had one borderline top 10 win in Bader, he's gifted a title shot and is considered a betting favourite over the #1 LHW and you're whining that he's being called over-hyped and overrated.Originally posted by sirchadwick1
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Then put your money where your mouth is and go heavy on Shogun or just sit back and watch it unravel. Alt, this site is all about predictions and opinions in case you haven't noticed. Just because I make a prediction doesn't mean I'm proclaiming to be able to see the future. What an ignorant statement. As I've already stated, I've been watching MMA since 99 (not just UFC). I understand that Shogun was injured in the past and didn't have the proper recovery and cardio to come in at full throttle against Forrest. I also believe he would take Forrest out in a rematch today. It's still not far fetched to say that excuses will likely be popping up after this fight, regardless of the condition Shogun is in. It's funny how Shogun never makes excuses himself... it's just his fans. Shogun's odds are tempting... but the question marks keep me away. Don't like what I say? FADE ME.Comment -
This is a good thread. I love the fighting. Everybody is bringing up great points.Comment -
-200 is too much juice to lay for someone who hasn't faced any top competion. Just not a smart gambling play.Comment -
Normally I'd agree with you here man. Perhaps I'm blinded by Bones the same way I've been blinded by JDS. But I have followed them both and strongly believe they're both future champs. I'm looking past the point of fighting top comp and just assessing the skillset and matchup here... maybe I'm just still a little high on Bones win against Bader, as I thought that fight would have been close - not a one sided beating. At -200 I probably wouldn't make a play on Jon... but I caught him at -185 which still was a little tough to pull the trigger. Finally I just went w/ my gut on who I thought would actually win the fight, throwing aside the possible value on Shogun. I really don't come here to argue or fight, just to give my input, but some of the replies do get my blood boiling a bit when they're full of ignorance.Comment -
QUOTE=sirchadwick1;8844083]Normally I'd agree with you here man. Perhaps I'm blinded by Bones the same way I've been blinded by JDS. But I have followed them both and strongly believe they're both future champs. I'm looking past the point of fighting top comp and just assessing the skillset and matchup here... maybe I'm just still a little high on Bones win against Bader, as I thought that fight would have been close - not a one sided beating. At -200 I probably wouldn't make a play on Jon... but I caught him at -185 which still was a little tough to pull the trigger. Finally I just went w/ my gut on who I thought would actually win the fight, throwing aside the possible value on Shogun. I really don't come here to argue or fight, just to give my input, but some of the replies do get my blood boiling a bit when they're full of ignorance.[/QUOTE]
I know what you mean as far as ignorance goes. I'm just confused as to how little respect you are giving Shogun. Especially since you have been watching mma since 99. Did you not see him wreck Rampage in about a minute. I am a big pride fan as you know, but I'm not stupid. I didn't go heavy on Fedor because he was way past his prime. Who though shogun would beat Machida? Twice? Not many. I can't wait for this fight and I hope people keep pounding bones.Comment -
Shogun is the dog? How many times does the title holder get dogged out that badly? He's almost resting at 2-1 and he is the champ??? Go youtube some of shoguns fights, and then ask yourself how oddsmakers made this mistake. This guy is no joke! I mean yeah, he is a bit older now, but the guy is still a fighter and he has a lot of experience against some of the best fighters in the world. Bones Jones just started wrestling when he was almost out of high school. JJ is a hell of an athlete and I can understand giving him respect in a fight, but taking Shogun seems to me the more logical decision based on experience and what he has already proven as a fighter. -200 on the challenger??? Not me man!Comment -
Pride success does not equal UFC success exactly. The ring was a much different environment in which Shogun could intimidate and cut off his opponents. He wrecked Rampage b/c he broke his rib early in the fight and Page couldn't defend himself... he looked helpless. Remember when Chael made Anderson look bad b/c he was fighting w/ popped rib cartilage? Many fans don't take these things into consideration when evaluating future fights - all they remember is how bad Shogun made Rampage look. I think Shogun would still beat the Page of today, but the fight would have been close back then if he hadn't suffered the early injury. I am not meaning to give Shogun little respect, as I know he's a phenomenal fighter. I just believe that Bones will test him like no one else has in the same way he will test Bones. His wrestling strength and length in combination with his lethal elbows on the ground are going to be a lot for Rua to handle. Bones is not Diabate or pre-horsemeat Overeem... different style completely. Bones will be able to circle around Shogun and avoid most of his shots and I actually see Bones dictating the pace. I'm hoping for some Fireworks here! This is seriously one highly anticipated match that shouldn't disappoint.Comment -
This should be a great fight but I'm going to have to give it to the guy that has the most experiance and Shogun has been in the sport way to long to be fooled by the flashy style of Jon JonesComment -
if bones takes the fight to the ground it will be an early night and a quick victory for him.rua will not be able to use his sweet kicks in this fight to avoid the takedowms.Comment -
you said we aren't taking into account that shogun broke rampage's ribs in their fight? Isn't that one way to win a fight? The fight wouldn't have looked so bad if shogun didn't kick rampages ass? Is that what you're selling me here? that's like saying we would have kept it close if the other team didn't score 10 touchdowns on us. Silva was injured prior to the fight so that is a totally different scenario. Silva could've been injured by shogun since they train together. I'll take the guy who breaks ribs and pays double the money down.Comment -
Shogun may have beaten Rampage either way. I'm just saying that is the reason Quinton looked so bad - he couldn't defend himself. A comparison would be if Pittsburgh and Green Bay play and Polamalu tackles Rodgers and injures his rib... but he grinds it out and still continues to play, affecting his breathing and passing ability. Sure Pitt deserves to win and probably does. But if Rogers wasn't hurt, he'd have looked much more effective on the playing field, having a better shot at winning. Don't talk like Shogun is always breaking bones. I'm not just trying to sell you with garbage. What the hell is up w/ the Shogun backers around here?
Also in the Forrest/Rua fight people are quick to discredit Forrest b/c Shogun had knee problems, but no one ever mentions Forrests shoulder injury that he had prior to fighting Shogun and on fight night. He basically fought against him w/ one arm and still won. He then proceeded to have shoulder surgery after that fight before fighting any other top competition.Comment -
The whole point here is that bones is laying too much juice to a guy as impressive as shogun. Bones might very well be as good as everyone says. But we don't know yet because of the lack top class competition. I'm not laying $215 to win $100 on an uncertainty. Not a sharp play. Good luck to everyone.
Post your tickets before the fight so we know your not just ass betting
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Vegas knows.
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Oh dear oh dear Roy...ur not quite getting it are you?
BTW, Im still waiting for some proof of all those hundreds of threads I apparently created backing Gomi over Guida (despite the fact that I bet on Guida Submission of the Night!???) Or have u finally realised how retarded u looked?Comment -
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Lol that comparison is horrible. It's a combat sport. The purpose is to stop the other fighter. Shogun caused the injury by beating on rampage. If pat Barry leg kicks a guy and he can barely walk does that mean his performance would be better if Barry didn't try to win the striking battle. If Antonio silva smashes fedor's face so that the fight is stopped, does that mean we should diminish the win and performance? It's fighting and u r trying to stop the other fighter. Shogun caused the injury that lead to the victory. It's his job and he did it to the fullest. U can't say well the fight would have been closer if shogun didn't bust rampages ribs up... that's the whole purpose lol.Comment -
Wow you guys are completely missing the point. I'm not discrediting Shogun's win. I'm saying that Rampage looked awful b/c he kept fighting w/ a broken rib. That is ALL. Holy shit people. What is this... gang up on Bones backers day? Does betting on Bones mean that we're all just stupid along w/ the odds makers? Apparently so.Comment -
I don't remember calling you a noob. I just didn't understand your post about wanting showgun to win, but placing a heavy bet on bones to win. That doesn't make any fukking sense to me. Your pretty much saying that you hope you lose your heavy bet. WHAT???? I'm a gambler. This is what we do here. If I place a fukkin heavy bet on somebody, I don't want the fukkin other guy to win. To many kids on this forum.Comment -
I agree with you sirchadwick. I like your Jones bet at -180, though I agree that's pretty much the limit... it's not worthwhile beyond -200. I think Jones wins this fight by TKO in round 2 or 3. Shogun has a great ground game from the bottom but Jones has a solid base, good submission defense and nasty ground and pound. On the feet Shogun has a clear advantage but I don't know how much it will matter because I think Jones will be able to take him down whenever he feels like it. Jones' top game is scary, and while it's definitely possible that Shogun submits him or regularly sweeps him from the bottom, I don't think it's likely enough that Shogun should be considered the favorite (though many seem to think he should be). The mental state is the x-factor, Shogun has been in big wars and title fights before and is a calm, smart and seasoned warrior. Jones looks cool as a cucumber every time we see him, but now for the first time he's up against a much better opponent and the stakes are obviously much higher, so we'll see how he reacts. I expect Jones to win, though I don't see value on either fighter with the current line.
Whatever happens, there will be a rematch down the road.Comment -
That was me, not him. What I want to happen, and what I think will happen will not always be the same, and I don't think anyone would go far in gambling if we were always betting on our wants.
I am a kid to the rest of you guys, especially as far as sports betting goes...but there's not a chance in the world that I'm going to pass up Jones at -170 in this particular fight. The only way Shogun wins is if he keeps it standing the entire time. Jones' stand up is not anywhere close to being on par, but he will more than make up for it in the clinch and on the ground.Comment -
I think several people need to re watch the Bader fight. Before Jones got the submission, Bader(a wrestler with a pink belt in jiujitsu) pulled guard on Jones and handed him a dominate position and then allowed a submission. Guard was pulled and dominate position was given for free.(there was no takedown before the submission) Bader handed Jones the victory and before that Jones never faced a real opponent. Shogun's recent fights with Machida were way more impressive than anything Jones has done.Comment -
Out of interest does anyone know where I can find closing lines for Jones previous fights?Comment
not really so worried about this. Shogun has some great guard game, some of the best at LHW, and never fails to get off his back.