[DontTailMe]

Maybe you were innocent in your follow-ups regarding Optional, but he's made it clear he doesn't want his identity exposed and it's apparent he feels your actions/messages were putting his anonymity at risk and now no longer wants to be further involved in the matter.

Whether his concern is justified or not, you can't seem to just let it rest for whatever reason and want to keep poking the bear. Even if Optional is wrong and he is being paranoid, just be the bigger person and let it go.

That said, I doubt most people here (including myself) are interested in the pissing match between you and Optional. Personally, I'm more interested in you doing what you claimed you would do in Post #560 and tell us what Fairlay is accusing you of (to SBR and the exchange) and what they were claiming (including linking where they called you a gambling addict, etc) and telling us what the exchange responded with.


How about instead of continuing to burn the bridge, that is SBR that helped get you your Bitcoin back, by engaging with Optional, you put Fairlay on blast and spill what they did in detail instead of this vagueness that seems to be a theme with your posts regarding what Fairlay has done to you. I wish you would have the same spirit of transparency you had in this issue with Optional (by attempting to post the PMs between you and Optional) and apply it to the Fairlay matter by posting your conversations with Fairlay along with the other details that would give us more clarity on what was going on with them and you as a start. If Fairlay has a problem with it, I'm sure SBR would be more than happy to let them post a rebuttal.

I agree with this. The ONLY useful reason for this thread continuing to exist is to shed additional light on what happened in this case so we can make our own judgement of the book.

Don't care much about the pissing match. It's impossible to know who's twisting facts here or misinterpreting intentions there.

@Degen1 - Tell us the story.

[raiders72001]

SBR isn't on trial and isn't required to show anything. The trial here is between Fairlay and degen.

degen- correct me if I'm wrong but it's seems to me you are saying that you never asked for Optional's identity. Then you state that you know his identity. You must have asked someone to get his identity.

Lol I just told you who I am, to show you I don’t give a shit. I didn’t ask you who you were. Stop saying I am trying to ask you who you are. I am literally universally saying I do not give a penetrate. And realistically if you ask me, I wouldn’t need to ask cause I already have a lot of confirmation of who you are

[raiders72001]

This has become a legal case. Subpoenas may be sent out. No one wants to be part of that.

[ShanghaiBeijing1]

I hope eventually they will give me compensation for the wasted time and cost and unnecessary fear.

What was the absolute amount of the BTC that you initially deposited/was held and the absolute amount of BTC that was returned to the exchange and ultimately back to you? This seems very relevant to this thread and your characterization of what has occurred here. Why won't you acknowledge the many calls to answer this question? Your appeals to transparency only seem relevant when they are benefiting something you want as opposed to providing clarity so that others can make informed decisions.

[lonnie55]

What was the absolute amount of the BTC that you initially deposited/was held and the absolute amount of BTC that was returned to the exchange and ultimately back to you?

19 pages but he didn't answer that simple question. Weird.

[icon]

19 pages but he didn't answer that simple question. Weird.

Not weird, quite intentional on his part.

[raiders72001]

Not weird, quite intentional on his part.

true, I've read all 19 pages over the last 2+ months and I'm still unsure about a lot of what happened even though asked. How much has degen won at Fairlay? Is he still owed winnings? How much to start with.

[degen1]

SBR isn't on trial and isn't required to show anything. The trial here is between Fairlay and degen.

degen- correct me if I'm wrong but it's seems to me you are saying that you never asked for Optional's identity. Then you state that you know his identity. You must have asked someone to get his identity.

Yeah I did not ask for his identity [SNIP MORE TALK ABOUT WHO I AM] *************** ************* ***** ************** ******* ******* ***********

Yes, a lot of what I've posted here has been intentional, i'd be lying to you if I said it wasn't and you'd be naive to think otherwise. But, a lot of the questions I ignore or the transparency I don't give is because they're primarily not pertinent to what matters - or at least in my opinion. I am thankful for SBR's help and your guys' input. I did not want to abuse it. However, I really did only have two intentions here 1.) maximize the amount I get back and 2.) to give warning to other users/pressure Fairlay. This doesn't mean I'm not appreciative of the dialogue or the help you guys have provided. But it does mean that I'm not really willing to share details that go beyond the scope.

Also between all the posts and the facts here you guys can answer most of the questions you are asking. But the amount really does not matter. What does is that it was a decent amount that you guys have an approximation of, I only received some of it. Additionally as you guys have noted there was also a drop in BTC pricing which further justifies asking for compensation. If it were $5 or $5 mil, the principles are the same. They only returned a portion because they thought it would f*** me over, but when it didn't they still chose not to apologize, explain, or give me any more.

Lastly, some restriction in transparency was in respect to Fairlay and in hopes of good faith communication/negotiation. I did not disclose a lot of what they said intentionally as to keep dialogues open. However, since we have seemingly hit a wall in that and their leverage is diminished, there's not much holding that good will up. Its hundreds of emails to dig up and organize so I will plan on posting a pretty detailed story in some form or fashion but it will take effort and time which I haven't really bothered doing yet.

[TheMoneyShot]

Degen - With all due respect... are you really considering a legal battle with Fairlay? Have you been through a few legal fights throughout your lifetime? Please weigh everything out before you jump into anything. Regardless of principle or not... be smart on your battles to win a war. Some wars aren't worth winning.

I've been through legal fights before. The only people who truly win are the attorneys. They promise the world because the longer it lasts... it only benefits them.

Again, I know how you feel... I got burned by a book back in 2004. You feel absolutely helpless and angry. Look at the bright side... SBR did their part... FREE OF CHARGE. Only thing you can do now is just walk away. Be smart on your next book. You're wasting your valuable time on this...

[TwitchySeal]

But the amount really does not matter. What does is that it was a decent amount that you guys have an approximation of, I only received some of it. Additionally as you guys have noted there was also a drop in BTC pricing which further justifies asking for compensation. If it were $5 or $5 mil, the principles are the same. They only returned a portion because they thought it would f*** me over, but when it didn't they still chose not to apologize, explain, or give me any more.

I was under the impression they returned your full balance and the drop in bitcoin price was the issue.

If they kept any of your actual Bitcoin that would be a lot more messed up than not compensating you for the change in BTC value. Can you at least give us what % of total BTC they did not return, regardless of the price? 0.01% if a lot different than, say 15%. Has there been any explanation on how they decided to return only x % of your balance?

[dj_destroyer]

I was under the impression they returned your full balance and the drop in bitcoin price was the issue.

If they kept any of your actual Bitcoin that would be a lot more messed up than not compensating you for the change in BTC value. Can you at least give us what % of total BTC they did not return, regardless of the price? 0.01% if a lot different than, say 15%. Has there been any explanation on how they decided to return only x % of your balance?

I think it's been fairly clear from degen that the entire balance was not returned (on top of the drop in BTC). Why he won't tell us is beyond me.

[PharaohUB]

Sounds like something else going on here. Whoever was asking Fairlay questions is probably going after degen too. Guy gotta be careful what he says. When you get into six figure money and above and there is some suspicion around him there must be some people looking at him pretty hard and depending on what he did or they think he did to Obtain that bitcoin his life could be in danger or he could be in trouble with govt.
I’ve read most the thread and that’s the vibe I’m getting but I don’t know have a clue.

[ShanghaiBeijing1]

Sounds like something else going on here. Whoever was asking Fairlay questions is probably going after degen too. Guy gotta be careful what he says. When you get into six figure money and above and there is some suspicion around him there must be some people looking at him pretty hard and depending on what he did or they think he did to Obtain that bitcoin his life could be in danger or he could be in trouble with govt.
I’ve read most the thread and that’s the vibe I’m getting but I don’t know have a clue.

[mrpapageorgio]

I will plan on posting a pretty detailed story in some form or fashion but it will take effort and time which I haven't really bothered doing yet.

Considering how opaque you continue to be. I won't hold my breath personally.

Degen - With all due respect... are you really considering a legal battle with Fairlay? Have you been through a few legal fights throughout your lifetime? Please weigh everything out before you jump into anything. Regardless of principle or not... be smart on your battles to win a war. Some wars aren't worth winning.

I've been through legal fights before. The only people who truly win are the attorneys. They promise the world because the longer it lasts... it only benefits them.

I doubt he realizes what a pain a civil case above small claims can be. His problem if/when the time comes will be discovery and Fairlay wanting to depose him. Refusing to answer questions by claiming it's not pertinent the whole deposition (like he's been doing in this thread) will just lead to a pissed off judge who will basically order him to answer the question and the judge will decide what's relevant.

[raiders72001]

Considering how opaque you continue to be. I won't hold my breath personally.



I doubt he realizes what a pain a civil case above small claims can be. His problem if/when the time comes will be discovery and Fairlay wanting to depose him. Refusing to answer questions by claiming it's not pertinent the whole deposition (like he's been doing in this thread) will just lead to a pissed off judge who will basically order him to answer the question and the judge will decide what's relevant.

I'm not a lawyer but I think when you don't answer a question in civil court, the answer to the question can be shed in negative light. As you said, the judge can ask whatever he wants on his own. The judge can assume the worst if not sufficiently answered. This is how it worked in a civil trial in my jurisdiction although CR may be a whole new ball game.

If degen isn't paying on contingency, as someone said above, the lawyers will end up getting the money and degen will be short changed if getting anything at all.

[lonnie55]

I've been through legal fights before. The only people who truly win are the attorneys. They promise the world because the longer it lasts... it only benefits them.

I can absolutely confirm that. I wasted 3 years and a 5 digit amount for a disappointing result when I sued a sportsbook in Belgium. The attorney's main focus was on how to maximize his earnings. The judges were highly incompetent and showed little to no interest on my case. The reasons for the judgment were ridiculous. Basically the judges pointed to the ToS of the sportsbook and supported a stupid argument of the opposing counsel. Justice and law are two very different animals. Lawsuits are a bit like a lottery. You need to have luck with your own lawyer but also with the judges.

With all due respect, how big is your confidence in the Costa Rican judiciary?

[Bsims]

However, I really did only have two intentions here 1.) maximize the amount I get back and 2.) to give warning to other users/pressure Fairlay.

Done and done. Time to quit.

[Jared Brooks]

dude, seriously? no wonder you get red flagged something just aint right.....newbie to forum maybe even to sports betting going to drop 10BTC into a book like its an everyday thing asking silly questions....I would red flag you too as would most books.....Something definitely doesn't pass smell test here

*OMG* 10 BTC !

That's pennies for a book like this and for lots of the people on this site. Your comment is asinine. If the book is concerned about the player using them as a bank or to launder money then they should communicate that promptly and put some conditions on the player (1x rollover is reasonable).

I haven't finished reading the thread yet (and have heard good things about Fairlay) but your comment really stands out in the Hall of Stupid.

[Jared Brooks]

Twitchy this you bro?? Don’t @ me ever again you bum

https://www.betcoin.ag/twitchyseal-b...in-proof-below

Good lord.

[Jared Brooks]

Good to hear. Case resolved then.

Thanks for bothering to come back and tell us after two weeks


Is there any reason why you are still badgering me and other staff trying to find out real life identities of SBR people?

How may times do you need to be told it's none of your business? Why are you so intent on wanting to know my real name???

Why do you keep trying to blame Matt and throw him under the bus for telling you something that was wrong or you misunderstood??

I can see why Fairlay find you extremely suspicious and I don't trust you myself either.


Are you grateful at all for the help by the way? Only messages I get from you keep demanding your dispute agent do something more. ASK THEM AND STOP WITH YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT ME!

I copped so much crap due to you, trying to help you, that I seriously regret it now. And feel quite uneasy about your obsession with knowing staff names here.

He's probably a fairly bright guy with a win-at-all-costs mentality and associated neuroses. I think he's probably grateful to you and the other staff who helped. Even if he's not, I am grateful and I'm sure many many members of this community are. Each one of these cases that gets resolved strengthens the offshore industry. Your work is critical and it seems to me that you're doing a very good job.

[Jared Brooks]

Posts #1 to about #600 were epic. I spent hours reading this.

Beyond #600 it turned into a confusing/exhausting argument.

In the end:

1) it seems like the TS was sloppy, as he failed to use an intermediate wallet
2) I'm guessing Fairlay was telling the truth when they said US law enforcement contacted them
3) I'm guessing Fairlay has very limited experience dealing with that kind of situation and didn't know how to handle it hence the delays and other amateur BS
4) I think Fairlay should compensate TS for the loss in USD value resulting from Fairlay holding his funds
5) I'm not quite ready to blacklist Fairlay based only on this situation. It seems like amateur behavior rather than malevolence.
6) If Fairlay really did steal another user (betg)'s funds then screw them and I will never play with them.

[Optional]

He's probably a fairly bright guy with a win-at-all-costs mentality and associated neuroses. I think he's probably grateful to you and the other staff who helped. Even if he's not, I am grateful and I'm sure many many members of this community are. Each one of these cases that gets resolved strengthens the offshore industry. Your work is critical and it seems to me that you're doing a very good job.

I do think he was grateful and maybe I should have just ignored the constant stream of leading, and pointed, questions about who was who here a bit longer, but it went on for weeks on end and was ramping up after he got paid and was genuinely unnerving.

Anyway, thanks for kind words.

Also, Twitchyseal vehemently denies the accusations there and claims it was all made up to make him look bad by some third party. Personally giving him benefit of doubt there.

[Optional]

Posts #1 to about #600 were epic. I spent hours reading this.

Beyond #600 it turned into a confusing/exhausting argument.

In the end:

1) it seems like the TS was sloppy, as he failed to use an intermediate wallet
2) I'm guessing Fairlay was telling the truth when they said US law enforcement contacted them
3) I'm guessing Fairlay has very limited experience dealing with that kind of situation and didn't know how to handle it hence the delays and other amateur BS
4) I think Fairlay should compensate TS for the loss in USD value resulting from Fairlay holding his funds
5) I'm not quite ready to blacklist Fairlay based only on this situation. It seems like amateur behavior rather than malevolence.
6) If Fairlay really did steal another user (betg)'s funds then screw them and I will never play with them.

They handled both cases badly but had their reasons for doing so in each case, and weren't trying to steal.

BetG was an obvious money launderer, who they say never provided ID info, so was not paid. In isolation maybe that is a justifiable position to some extent but unless they want to apply the same standard to all players it was very difficult to see their threats to hand info to LE and wanting video ID as fair or reasonable.

In the Degen1 case they felt between a rock and a hard place and wanted to do the right thing.

In both cases they appear to have wanted to act like amateur law enforcement though, and talk to players like they are criminals and therefore they should have a right to hold onto their funds whatever the actual legal position/jurisdiction really was.


I think the people running it probably are decent types who do not want to be seen as abiding criminal activity. One problem with that is running an offshore bitcoin betting exchange without full KYC procedures in place is a honeypot for anyone wanting to launder funds or gamble with proceeds of crime un-noticed. They are trying to walk a fishing line width tightrope to act as they did in these two cases.

[degen1]

Hello all, and a happy new year.

Just revisiting this, as I am finally supposed to be repaid the remaining amount and it will be resolved.

I apologize again to Opti for the back and forth. Again, I really had no intention of making you uncomfortable.

While I felt entirely grateful for the help of SBR, and also from the support or dialogue of the community here, it felt like I was being severely wronged for a long time. After being a pretty loyal and respectful member, my funds were suddenly seized with no explanation (by Fairlay). Along the way each promise, assertion, or deadline etc. that was made to me was broken and blown through. At times, it felt very petty from Fairlay - like they wanted me to suffer (almost being excited that I wouldn't get my money back, or so certain that I wouldn't, or glad that I would be upset that they disclosed too much information publicly that they shouldn't have). To get my money back wasn't enough, it felt like there was not at any point an apology, remorse, or compensation on their part. Still I have no idea what happened here, and still there is no admission of being wrong or even the possibility of it. Still I even have to ask for my money back.

While I don't believe all of this came from thin air, I also can't help but feel like it's all bullshit or they followed a mistake down the rabbit hole b/c pretty much everything they've said did not come to fruition or was not true. I.e:

They said I was going to be contacted by law enforcement: never happened
They said I would never get the money back from an exchange: never happened

Additionally, I consulted a lawyer based on the information I had from SBR/Fairlay themselves, and legally what they were claiming was not correct, and they later confirmed they had no legal obligations to be holding my money.

So I affirm Opti's opinion that they primarily just seemed to want to be amateur law enforcement or do the "right thing," but when they were wrong in so many different points of time, i thought enough would have been enough and I could be redeemed or at least get all my money back.

That is why I was vindictive and seeking as much information as I could. But now I am resigned to this being enough.

[Craig22]

Hello all, and a happy new year.

Just revisiting this, as I am finally supposed to be repaid the remaining amount and it will be resolved.

I apologize again to Opti for the back and forth. Again, I really had no intention of making you uncomfortable.

While I felt entirely grateful for the help of SBR, and also from the support or dialogue of the community here, it felt like I was being severely wronged for a long time. After being a pretty loyal and respectful member, my funds were suddenly seized with no explanation (by Fairlay). Along the way each promise, assertion, or deadline etc. that was made to me was broken and blown through. At times, it felt very petty from Fairlay - like they wanted me to suffer (almost being excited that I wouldn't get my money back, or so certain that I wouldn't, or glad that I would be upset that they disclosed too much information publicly that they shouldn't have). To get my money back wasn't enough, it felt like there was not at any point an apology, remorse, or compensation on their part. Still I have no idea what happened here, and still there is no admission of being wrong or even the possibility of it. Still I even have to ask for my money back.

While I don't believe all of this came from thin air, I also can't help but feel like it's all bullshit or they followed a mistake down the rabbit hole b/c pretty much everything they've said did not come to fruition or was not true. I.e:

They said I was going to be contacted by law enforcement: never happened
They said I would never get the money back from an exchange: never happened

Additionally, I consulted a lawyer based on the information I had from SBR/Fairlay themselves, and legally what they were claiming was not correct, and they later confirmed they had no legal obligations to be holding my money.

So I affirm Opti's opinion that they primarily just seemed to want to be amateur law enforcement or do the "right thing," but when they were wrong in so many different points of time, i thought enough would have been enough and I could be redeemed or at least get all my money back.

That is why I was vindictive and seeking as much information as I could. But now I am resigned to this being enough.

How much left are you owed?

[trytrytry]

no doubt thread of the year at SBR at least on a sportsbook type issue

[Ant23]

trytrytry........and it's time to bury that "horse" b/c it's been beaten to death. degen1 seemed pretty hard to get along with from what I was reading but most folks here tried to help. Even OPTIONAL tried to help after degen1 was trying to find out his identity.

Close this topic and let's get ready for 2020

[Jared Brooks]

@degen1

Tried to PM you but the system tells me you can't receive PMs.