By every standard, Ground Zero is a place of reverence.

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  • golfrulz
    SBR MVP
    • 02-02-10
    • 2425

    #1
    By every standard, Ground Zero is a place of reverence.
    U.S. President Barack Obama has indicated he's not going to get involved (embroiled?) in the issue of building a $100-million Islamic centre and mosque near the site of 9/11 in Lower Manhattan.

    Officially he has no opinion -- the White House calling it a local issue for local politicians to resolve.

    That's a bit of a cop-out, and not true.

    A new mosque near Ground Zero is, or should be, a national issue, if not an international one. It is so insensitive and inappropriate, it boggles comprehension why any rational person of goodwill would even contemplate it.

    For Obama to view it as a "local issue" is like saying 9/11 was a local, New York issue, and not a concern of the president.

    Besides, Obama has no hesitation about intruding in other issues that could be considered local -- such as Arizona trying to stem the influx of illegals from Mexico by questioning people who might be in the country illegally, but haven't done anything criminal.

    Obama is suing Arizona because it has trod onto turf that is usually a federal responsibility, and will likely bode ill for Democrats in November's mid-term elections. Across America, polls show people side with Arizona.

    Building an Islamic Centre at the site of 9/11 may well be intended as a gesture of reconciliation. Certainly that's what its proponents say. But it would inevitably be seen as a statement, and is so offensive to the families of those who were killed by Jihadists on 9/11, that the argument should be over before it even begins.

    We tend to forget that when those hijacked airliners were flown into the twin towers of the World Trade Centre, thousands of Americans headed for the site and saved countless lives from the burning buildings. A few hundred rescuers -- cops, fire fighters and others -- also died trying to save those trapped.

    By every standard, Ground Zero is a place of reverence.

    While the pro and con debate continues, another factor emerges that mitigates against the damned thing being built: Who will build it? Do you think for a moment New York's construction workers are going to happily work on this symbolic structure?

    It can be guaranteed protests and demonstrations will be endless at the site if construction actually begins. Before being completed, tensions will be exacerbated. Needlessly. Recklessly. Not what most Muslims and Americans want.

    The issue has surfaced anew since the Landmarks Preservation Commission voted unanimously that the present building -- the four-storey Burlington Coat Factory -- is not a landmark, and is already being used as a mosque by local Muslims.

    The building was damaged on 9/11 by wreckage from the doomed aircraft.
  • Andy117
    SBR Hall of Famer
    • 02-07-10
    • 9511

    #2
    I don't like the idea of mosque that close to ground zero but on what grounds are you going to be able to stop it?
    Comment
    • golfrulz
      SBR MVP
      • 02-02-10
      • 2425

      #3
      Eminent domain
      Comment
      • Hotdiggity11
        SBR MVP
        • 01-09-09
        • 4916

        #4
        Good, he is right, it is totally a state issue [Not that the state can do much about it anyways without violating the Constitution].
        Comment
        • DwightShrute
          SBR Aristocracy
          • 01-17-09
          • 103420

          #5
          no contractor will ever work on that building if it's to be a mosque. No one will provide materials to those stupid enough to attempt to restore it for a mosque.

          It will never happen.
          Comment
          • BigdaddyQH
            SBR Posting Legend
            • 07-13-09
            • 19530

            #6
            It can easily be stopped. Some zoning questions. The inability to get materials or a big enough labor force to build it. Vandalism or arson. This will go on and on for years.
            Comment
            • itchypickle
              SBR Posting Legend
              • 11-05-09
              • 21452

              #7
              Originally posted by DwightShrute
              no contractor will ever work on that building if it's to be a mosque. No one will provide materials to those stupid enough to attempt to restore it for a mosque.

              It will never happen.

              Comment
              • GonzosDirtyTrail
                SBR Wise Guy
                • 06-26-10
                • 714

                #8
                The first amendment gives these folks the right to establish a mosque there, provided that they follow the required legal avenues to do so. What this will ultimately become is a very public exercise in hate on both sides of the issue, regardless of whether the folks succeed in building a mosque on that spot.
                Comment
                • curious
                  Restricted User
                  • 07-20-07
                  • 9093

                  #9
                  Originally posted by GonzosDirtyTrail
                  The first amendment gives these folks the right to establish a mosque there, provided that they follow the required legal avenues to do so. What this will ultimately become is a very public exercise in hate on both sides of the issue, regardless of whether the folks succeed in building a mosque on that spot.
                  If they build that mosque I will burn it down myself.
                  Comment
                  • Emily_Haines
                    SBR Posting Legend
                    • 04-14-09
                    • 15917

                    #10
                    Originally posted by curious
                    If they build that mosque I will burn it down myself.
                    What a pathetic sorry excuse for a human you are. No wonder this country is constantly at war with so many miserable people as yourself.
                    Comment
                    • curious
                      Restricted User
                      • 07-20-07
                      • 9093

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Emily_Haines
                      What a pathetic sorry excuse for a human you are. No wonder this country is constantly at war with so many miserable people as yourself.
                      If you love Muslims so much move to Saudi Arabia or somewhere else where you will feel right at home in your burqa, unable to go outside unless accompanies by a male blood relative.
                      Comment
                      • DwightShrute
                        SBR Aristocracy
                        • 01-17-09
                        • 103420

                        #12
                        There is no law they can't build the fuking mosque there but out of respect they shouldn't.

                        Emily if you wanted to put up a statue of your cousin Timothy McVeigh right next to where the Oklahoma City building used to be, we would also tell you to go fuk yourself.
                        Comment
                        • golfrulz
                          SBR MVP
                          • 02-02-10
                          • 2425

                          #13
                          Eminent domain refers to the power possessed by the state over all property within the state, specifically its power to appropriate property for a public use. In some jurisdictions, the state delegates eminent domain power to certain public and private companies, typically utilities, such that they can bring eminent domain actions to run telephone, power, water, or gas lines. In most countries, including the United States under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, the owner of any appropriated land is entitled to reasonable compensation, usually defined as the fair market value of the property. Proceedings to take land under eminent domain are typically referred to as "condemnation" proceedings.
                          Comment
                          • rkelly110
                            BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                            • 10-05-09
                            • 39691

                            #14
                            Ditto, curious, dwight, and itchy.

                            All you mosque loving people can take a hike! Spew your peace elsewhere. NO MOSQUE!!!
                            Comment
                            • curious
                              Restricted User
                              • 07-20-07
                              • 9093

                              #15
                              For all of you idiots who support the construction of the Islamic Victory Memorial For the Victory Over the Infidels on Sept 11, 2001 (also known as a Muslim Cultural Center and/or Mosque), I am wondering if you also support:
                              the Japanese construction of a victory memorial at Pearl Harbor, or
                              a British victory memorial in Washington DC for their victory during the War of 1812, or a Mexican victory memorial at the Alamo, or
                              maybe you would like for the Yemeni al-Qaeda group to erect a victory memorial for their attack on the US Cole at a US naval base, or
                              maybe Hezbollah can erect a victory memorial for their attack on the Marine barracks in Lebanon at Quantico VA?

                              Are you really so traitorous that you support the construction of the Islamic Victory Memorial at ground zero? Or are you retarded? Or just plain stupid?
                              Comment
                              • DwightShrute
                                SBR Aristocracy
                                • 01-17-09
                                • 103420

                                #16
                                Remember that part of the landing gear smashed through the roof of the proposed building from one of the planes that flew into the Trade Center. That's how close it is to ground zero.
                                Comment
                                • DwightShrute
                                  SBR Aristocracy
                                  • 01-17-09
                                  • 103420

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by curious
                                  If they build that mosque I will burn it down myself.
                                  what's needed is more patriots like Curious and less Emily's. Only then will America be great again.

                                  Ps. I will buy the gas
                                  Comment
                                  • Waterstpub87
                                    SBR MVP
                                    • 09-09-09
                                    • 4108

                                    #18
                                    Just because they can do, doesn't mean it isn't in bad taste to. Its extremely bad taste and any reasonable person should be able to. Out of everywhere in New York, why do they have to build it there?
                                    Comment
                                    • chachi
                                      SBR MVP
                                      • 02-16-07
                                      • 4571

                                      #19
                                      Having lived outside the USA now for over 15 years perhaps my views are a bit broader and less politically charged.

                                      I used to work in the financial industry / trading / banking sector and knew many people who lost their lives in the towers on that dreadful day, so don't anyone here try to tell me I do not fully appreciate the events and/or ramifications of what occurred. When the "squawk boxes" suddenly went dead and the footage came up on all the screens in the trading room, it was sickening.

                                      Having said that, I have no issue whatsoever with the mosque. To heal and rebuild the nation, inclusiveness is a must, anything less simply gives strength to those who wish to break apart the ideals and freedoms our country was built upon, and which it has over the last 10 years strayed from. Where else is more apropos to build a place for the worship of the 99% of muslims who deplore and detest those responsible and their actions?

                                      After all, the most important document in our history starts off "We the people ..." not "For us (but not the rest of you) ..."

                                      Having said all that, apparently Nazizona has forgotten about the 14th amendment ...
                                      Comment
                                      • rkelly110
                                        BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                        • 10-05-09
                                        • 39691

                                        #20
                                        chachi, please read post 15 from curious and mine from before his, AGAIN !
                                        Comment
                                        • rkelly110
                                          BARRELED IN @ SBR!
                                          • 10-05-09
                                          • 39691

                                          #21
                                          rkelly110

                                          Originally posted by DwightShrute
                                          what's needed is more patriots like Curious and less Emily's. Only then will America be great again.

                                          Ps. I will buy the gas

                                          If that's an actual picture of curious, like he says it is, he could sneek
                                          up on the mosque as a home less person and do the deed.

                                          Just kidding, buddy, if you want help with that project, I'm with you.
                                          Comment
                                          • chachi
                                            SBR MVP
                                            • 02-16-07
                                            • 4571

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by rkelly110
                                            chachi, please read post 15 from curious and mine from before his, AGAIN !
                                            I did, and chuckled as you are comparing apples and oranges.

                                            None of your examples are on point ...

                                            1) Japan, England and Mexico were sovereign nations waging war.
                                            2) We could do nothing if something was built near where the USS Cole was hit, given it is not US soil
                                            3) Same comment for the site of Hezbollah's attack in Lebanon

                                            Those calling for attacks, vandalism, arson, etc IMO should have their details turned over to the police. There is no place in a free society for closed-minded loons that spout such nonsense, and it is precisely this sort of idiocy that predicated things in the first place.

                                            If one substituted 'church' for 'mosque' and 'christian' for 'muslim' this would not even rate a mention in the news.
                                            Comment
                                            • curious
                                              Restricted User
                                              • 07-20-07
                                              • 9093

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by chachi
                                              Having lived outside the USA now for over 15 years perhaps my views are a bit broader and less politically charged.

                                              I used to work in the financial industry / trading / banking sector and knew many people who lost their lives in the towers on that dreadful day, so don't anyone here try to tell me I do not fully appreciate the events and/or ramifications of what occurred. When the "squawk boxes" suddenly went dead and the footage came up on all the screens in the trading room, it was sickening.

                                              Having said that, I have no issue whatsoever with the mosque. To heal and rebuild the nation, inclusiveness is a must, anything less simply gives strength to those who wish to break apart the ideals and freedoms our country was built upon, and which it has over the last 10 years strayed from. Where else is more apropos to build a place for the worship of the 99% of muslims who deplore and detest those responsible and their actions?

                                              After all, the most important document in our history starts off "We the people ..." not "For us (but not the rest of you) ..."

                                              Having said all that, apparently Nazizona has forgotten about the 14th amendment ...
                                              The united states is the most diverse, inclusive, tolerant country in the world. There are more religious buildings of a larger number of different faiths in the united states than anywhere else in the world. Don't tell me that we need an Islamic Victory Memorial overlooking ground zero to prove our "tolerance" or "inclusiveness", we already prove that. Put in New York, NY in Google and do a search nearby for "mosque" and there are 200 results within a few minutes drive of New York NY (Manhattan). The United States is already toleran and inclusive.

                                              I dispute your assertion that 99% of Muslims detest those responsible for ground zero and their actions, if this were true then the global Jihadists would not be able to come and go as they please and they would not be able to successfully recruit the way that they do. I know many American Muslims and on 9/12 I called every single one of them and said "you have to explain this to me" and NOT ONE of them expressed disgust or rejected the action. Of course they all said that cop out "well, we sympathize with the American people, blah blah blah". BUT, they all said that they understood and SYMPATHIZED WITH the motives of the global Jihadists who attacked us. I no longer have any Muslim friends.

                                              now, this was not just 1 or 2 people, I called over 30 people. There attitude of sympathy with the Jihadists was disgusting.

                                              I distinctly remember watching victory celebrations throughout the Muslim world on 9/11. In many cities the streets were jampacked with celebrators. I don't buy for one minute that the vast majority of Mulsims are "moderates" who reject global Jihad. you can't be a "moderate" and be a Muslim. The Quran and the vast majority of prominent Imams and Mullahs teach that it is the duty of every Muslim to be an active participant in Jihad. A person either believes that and is a Muslim or they don't beliieve it and they are an apostate. Islam only has one penalty for apostasy (execution).

                                              so, don't give me this nonsense that the United States has an oblgiation to allow the global Jihadists to build their victory memorial so that the United States can prove that we are "inclusive" and "tolerant".
                                              Comment
                                              • chachi
                                                SBR MVP
                                                • 02-16-07
                                                • 4571

                                                #24
                                                three comments in followup ...

                                                1) Sympathizing with the reasons and supporting/approving the actions are two different things. I have sympathy for the Palestinian people for everything they have suffered, the mistreatment at the hands of their own people as well as the Israelis, etc, but I do not support any terrorist activities or bombings or such, can you see the difference?

                                                2) Mainstream Islam and its imams and mullahs do not support the terrorism campaigns. Using this we should ban the Catholic church since many redneck preachers are closet KKK supporters and anti anything-but-white-christians ...

                                                3) Put any random group of idiots in front of a TV camera after a major event, egg them on a bit, and you get identical results regardless of faith, creed, color, or (in the more prevalent situation in the states) team they support.
                                                Comment
                                                • curious
                                                  Restricted User
                                                  • 07-20-07
                                                  • 9093

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by chachi
                                                  three comments in followup ...

                                                  1) Sympathizing with the reasons and supporting/approving the actions are two different things. I have sympathy for the Palestinian people for everything they have suffered, the mistreatment at the hands of their own people as well as the Israelis, etc, but I do not support any terrorist activities or bombings or such, can you see the difference?

                                                  2) Mainstream Islam and its imams and mullahs do not support the terrorism campaigns. Using this we should ban the Catholic church since many redneck preachers are closet KKK supporters and anti anything-but-white-christians ...

                                                  3) Put any random group of idiots in front of a TV camera after a major event, egg them on a bit, and you get identical results regardless of faith, creed, color, or (in the more prevalent situation in the states) team they support.
                                                  1. The people I talked to did not disavow the actions and supported the ideas of global Jihad and blamed the US for the conditions which were the motivations for the attack. I reject such an attitude and reject friendship with those who espouse that attitude.

                                                  2. You are wrong on that one. Mainstream Islam and the Imams do support Global Jihad. Global Jihad is the primary goal of Islam. There is no way to be an Islamist without supporting Jihad. I never said to ban Islam, I said do not allow them to build a victory memorial at the site of the bombing of the world trade center. Your statement about "redneck preachers" being "closet KKK supporters" shows your ignorance and your racism. The KKK is a marginal group at best and has pretty much zero support.

                                                  3. I am not talking about random people in front of a TV camera, I am talkking about opinions expressed to me by people that I knew well and had reasons to trust. Your statement about the camera and "egging them on" has nothing to do with the point I made. No one was in front of the large crowds with a microphone "egging them on" the victory celebrations all over the Islamic world on 9/12 were a spontaneous outpouring, expressing the true feelings of the celebrators.
                                                  Comment
                                                  • chachi
                                                    SBR MVP
                                                    • 02-16-07
                                                    • 4571

                                                    #26
                                                    Agree to disagree ...

                                                    1) I only knew a few muslims who supported the hijackers and their actions, and in time they came to reject those actions after reflection. None that I know express beliefs that Islam = must be at war and wish death upon non-muslims.

                                                    2) You took the actions of the extremists and painted all muslims with the same brush, I used hyperbole and sarcasm to do the same to 'redneck christians' but apparently that was missed.

                                                    3) You said, quote "I distinctly remember watching victory celebrations throughout the Muslim world on 9/11. In many cities the streets were jampacked with celebrators" so unless you were travelling throughout the Middle East it must have been on television, and my comments refer to the 'pack mentality' especially in these instances, as were people to have gone into the streets in such places and held up placards condemning the hijackers they would likely have been set upon and torn to shreds. Neither of us were there when the cameras were turned on, and the cameras were not there when, as you put it, the spontaneous reaction took place, so you cannot state that as fact.

                                                    Obviously neither of us is going to change our minds on the subject, but I give you credit for entering into a discussion about it, excepting your 'Ill help burn it down' remarks which you may or may not admit are both ill-advised and also as much an extremism reaction as that which you are wound up about. No matter what race, creed, or belief ... if you threaten to burn someone's house of worship down and you will get nearly the same response.
                                                    Comment
                                                    • curious
                                                      Restricted User
                                                      • 07-20-07
                                                      • 9093

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by chachi
                                                      Agree to disagree ...
                                                      "Agree to disagree" is a copout usually adopted by the person with the weaker argument.


                                                      1) I only knew a few muslims who supported the hijackers and their actions, and in time they came to reject those actions after reflection. None that I know express beliefs that Islam = must be at war and wish death upon non-muslims.
                                                      I have traveled and lived extensively in the Muslim world, I know hundreds of people. You don't understand what Global Jihad means. Jihad is not necessarily "wish death upon", there are different levels of intensity for Jihad, but it is impossible to be a member of Islam and not support and believe in Jihad.

                                                      2) You took the actions of the extremists and painted all muslims with the same brush, I used hyperbole and sarcasm to do the same to 'redneck christians' but apparently that was missed.
                                                      I reject the idea that the perpetrators of 9/11 are some kind of fringe group. I did not paint Muslims with the same brush, I studied Islam's teachings and its history to better know my enemy and just quoted their own words and teachings. I did not arrive at my opinion lightly and I talked to a LOT of people to try to come to terms with 9/11 so that I would not have to discontinue my friendships. This was not a decision made lightly and I spent over two years researching it. So, for you to pretend that I just overreacted on the spur of the moment is insulting and shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

                                                      3) You said, quote "I distinctly remember watching victory celebrations throughout the Muslim world on 9/11. In many cities the streets were jampacked with celebrators" so unless you were travelling throughout the Middle East it must have been on television, and my comments refer to the 'pack mentality' especially in these instances, as were people to have gone into the streets in such places and held up placards condemning the hijackers they would likely have been set upon and torn to shreds. Neither of us were there when the cameras were turned on, and the cameras were not there when, as you put it, the spontaneous reaction took place, so you cannot state that as fact.
                                                      so you think that hundreds of thousands of people responded to a reporter with a microphone by leaving their houses and dancing in the streets shouting "death to america..." etc?

                                                      Obviously neither of us is going to change our minds on the subject, but I give you credit for entering into a discussion about it, excepting your 'Ill help burn it down' remarks which you may or may not admit are both ill-advised and also as much an extremism reaction as that which you are wound up about. No matter what race, creed, or belief ... if you threaten to burn someone's house of worship down and you will get nearly the same response.
                                                      My determination to help prevent the construction of a victory memorial by our enemies has nothing to do with race or creed or belief. The people behind the building of this mosque have in mind to build a victory memorial to the victory of global Jihad over the US. I don't care what their race, creed, or belief is (although Islam is not a race), I'm not having a victory memorial built at the site of an American catastrophe. Just like if the Japanese try to build a victory memorial at Pearl harbor I will offer to burn that down also. Or, if the Yemenis try to build a victory memorial to the bombing of the USS Cole at the naval yard in Norfolk VA.

                                                      The fact that you keep claiming that opposition to the construction of this victory memorial by the Jihadists is some form of racism or religious bigotry shows that you either a) are a traitor, b) are ignorant, or c) are an ideologue who paints anyone who disagrees with you as a "racist" or "bigot". I could care less what these people's race or religion is. What I do care about is that they are our enemy and they are not going to build a victory memorial at the site of ground zero. I'm not opposed to the construction of mosques. There are thousands of mosques in the United States, there are over 200 mosques within 15 miles of ground zero. That isn't the point, but of course you know that.
                                                      Comment
                                                      • chachi
                                                        SBR MVP
                                                        • 02-16-07
                                                        • 4571

                                                        #28
                                                        Ummm ... just so that before I give up on partaking in your dialogue diatribe, let me summarize ...

                                                        Emily disagreed with you and called you out on your comments, and you basically said to GTFO of the country if she holds a different opinion.

                                                        Because I do not agree with your belief that building a mosque in lower Manhattan is a particularly evil thing which must be prevented, if necessary by illegal, immoral, and potentially murderous actions, that makes me a traitor to my country, ignorant and a bigot.

                                                        'Agreeing to disagree' is not surrender, it is a polite way of saying: You're a ****ing nutter and there is no point having a rational debate with you, therefore I give up.

                                                        With that, I bid you adieu ... < / unsubscribes >
                                                        Comment
                                                        • curious
                                                          Restricted User
                                                          • 07-20-07
                                                          • 9093

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by chachi
                                                          Ummm ... just so that before I give up on partaking in your dialogue diatribe, let me summarize ...
                                                          Emily disagreed with you and called you out on your comments, and you basically said to GTFO of the country if she holds a different opinion.
                                                          No, Emily did not disagree with me, Emily said "What a pathetic sorry excuse for a human you are." Not exactly a "disagreement" What i said in response was that if she loved Muslims so much she should move to an overwhelmingly Muslim country and live as one, covered up ina burqa, locked up in her house unable to leave without a male blood relative, unable to work or go to school or drive. I was making a point.

                                                          Because I do not agree with your belief that building a mosque in lower Manhattan is a particularly evil thing which must be prevented, if necessary by illegal, immoral, and potentially murderous actions, that makes me a traitor to my country, ignorant and a bigot.
                                                          Wrong again. The fact that you accuse people like me, who oppose the contruction of a VICTORY MEMORIAL by our enemies at the site of ground zero, of racism and bigotry, pretending to think that our opposition is due to race or religion (even though Islam is neither a race nor a religion but I digress), that makes you ignorant or a bigot. You either don't understand that what is being proposed is a Victory Memorial, in which case you are ignorant, or you know that it is a Victory Memorial in which case you are a traitor.

                                                          'Agreeing to disagree' is not surrender, it is a polite way of saying: You're a ****ing nutter and there is no point having a rational debate with you, therefore I give up.

                                                          With that, I bid you adieu ... < / unsubscribes >
                                                          I didn't say that 'agreeing to disagree' was surrender, I said it is a cop out.

                                                          You seem to suffer from a severe lack of reading comprehension.
                                                          Comment
                                                          • GonzosDirtyTrail
                                                            SBR Wise Guy
                                                            • 06-26-10
                                                            • 714

                                                            #30
                                                            Chachi, welcome. You'll find that a moderate tone on this board earns you scorn in most cases. I'd recommend clicking the "edit settings" link and putting those folks on ignore, personally.
                                                            Comment
                                                            • curious
                                                              Restricted User
                                                              • 07-20-07
                                                              • 9093

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by GonzosDirtyTrail
                                                              Chachi, welcome. You'll find that a moderate tone on this board earns you scorn in most cases. I'd recommend clicking the "edit settings" link and putting those folks on ignore, personally.
                                                              I hardly find ignorance with a moderate tone endearing.

                                                              This idiot is accusing patriots who object to the construction of a Victory Memorial by our enemies at the site of the murder of 3,000 of our people of being racists and bigots. Either he knows that this is nonsense in which case he is a traitor or he doesn't know it is nonsense in which case he is ignorant.

                                                              Please tell he how I am wrong in feeling this way.
                                                              Comment
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