US Debt

[khicks26]

That's still your opinion. Which I disagree with. But I'm sure you know better than Marx.

The Russian's loved the way our system controlled the people. The Nazi's loved our Jim Crow laws. Our rich industrialist loved Mussolini & had deals with Hitler before the war. How the hell would you know who hated capitalism?

Also you do know Russia fought on our side. For a short time in our history we loved Russia.

[guitarjosh]

That's still your opinion. Which I disagree with.

The Russian's loved the way our system controlled the people. The Nazi's loved our Jim Crow laws. Our rich industrialist loved Mussolini & had deals with Hitler before the war. How the hell would you know who hated capitalism?

I know they hated capitalism because they said it. When Stalin is having propaganda films made showing how capitalism in the West doesn't work, when the Nazis are having billboards made that say, "Resist Jewish capitalism" and money that has, "Common good before self", it doesn't take much to put things together. Since we're on the topic of fascists loving things in America, you are aware that Hitler and Mussolini thought highly of FDR and the policies he was implementing, right? You are aware of how Mussolini loved John Keynes, even going as far as to call his book the End of Laissez Faire a great introduction to fascist economics and inviting him to Italy to study fascism, right?

[khicks26]

I know they hated capitalism because they said it. When Stalin is having propaganda films made showing how capitalism in the West doesn't work, when the Nazis are having billboards made that say, "Resist Jewish capitalism" and money that has, "Common good before self", it doesn't take much to put things together. Since we're on the topic of fascists loving things in America, you are aware that Hitler and Mussolini thought highly of FDR and the policies he was implementing, right? You are aware of how Mussolini loved John Keynes, even going as far as to call his book the End of Laissez Faire a great introduction to fascist economics and inviting him to Italy to study fascism, right?

Key word propaganda. What was Stalin suppose to do, tell the country they were a state run capitalism?

Hitler hated the Jews for everything, mostly for stabbing Germany in the back for WWI. They were a scapegoat.

That's funny, because FDR said he saved capitalism. Stopped the country from becoming communist or socialist & kept the means of production in the hands of the rich that owned it & were his friends. He was right.

Failed capitalism turns to fascism. Wouldn't surprise me about Keynes, at the time no one knew what fascism would become.

[RoyBacon]

Maybe you should look at what the guy did in WWII, like order 227.

Stalin was no lefty, but one could argue he was what was needed at the time.

Josh you are arguing with a guy that is closer politically to Stalin than Obama. You are not alone around here hicks.

[khicks26]

Josh you are arguing with a guy that is closer politically to Stalin than Obama. You are not alone around here hicks.

I don't like Stalin, but you have to admire what the Russians did in WWII.


Nice of you to twist my words & shove them in my mouth. Josh will be proud of you.

[guitarjosh]

Key word propaganda. What was Stalin suppose to do, tell the country they were a state run capitalism?

Hitler hated the Jews for everything, mostly for stabbing Germany in the back for WWI. They were a scapegoat.

That's funny, because FDR said he saved capitalism. Stopped the country from becoming communist or socialist & kept the means of production in the hands of the rich that owned it & were his friends. He was right.

Failed capitalism turns to fascism. Would surprise me about Keynes, at the time no one knew what fascism would become.

Yeah, propaganda like showing the Grapes of Wrath in Russian theaters. The only thing was the people saw how well poor Americans lived so they had to pull the movie. Stalin was a communist, and he was running a communist country. He did his best to foster the ideas of Marx.

Hitler thought capitalism was a Jewish idea, which ought to let you know what he thought about it.

FDR didn't save capitalism at all, we didn't even have capitalism. The price of credit was set by central planners, the exact same way the price of everything was set by the Soviets.

Both Germany and Italy were constitutional monarchies prior to fascism, and the reason they went to fascism is because of WWI's aftermath and how they thought they had both been mistreated by the Treaty of Versailles.

[RoyBacon]

My apologies. You would agree you are quite left of Obama?

[guitarjosh]

I don't like Stalin, but you have to admire what the Russians did in WWII.

Sure, but most of that wasn't due to Stalin, it was due to people like Zhukov, who was arguably the best general in WWII, or Chuikov.

[khicks26]

Yeah, propaganda like showing the Grapes of Wrath in Russian theaters. The only thing was the people saw how well poor Americans lived so they had to pull the movie. Stalin was a communist, and he was running a communist country. He did his best to foster the ideas of Marx.

Hitler thought capitalism was a Jewish idea, which ought to let you know what he thought about it.

FDR didn't save capitalism at all, we didn't even have capitalism. The price of credit was set by central planners, the exact same way the price of everything was set by the Soviets.

Both Germany and Italy were constitutional monarchies prior to fascism, and the reason they went to fascism is because of WWI's aftermath and how they thought they had both been mistreated by the Treaty of Versailles.

Still your opinion. Yes FDR did.

[khicks26]

My apologies. You would agree you are quite left of Obama?

I would agree that Obama wasn't Left at all.

[khicks26]

Sure, but most of that wasn't due to Stalin, it was due to people like Zhukov, who was arguably the best general in WWII, or Chuikov.

Who reported to Stalin.

[chico2663]

[QUOTE=guitarjosh;27590597]Okay let me try to make this easy for you. If the AMT didn't kick in until 30k in 1969, but that was indexed for inflation, the AMT wouldn't kick in until almost 209k today. Most people don't make anywhere near that. Do you understand now?


What part of 127 richest families don't you get. What part of you had to make a million dollars today but I was wrong . The threshold was 200,00 so where does that 30,000 come in josh? By the way those figures for inflation would be 1.170,000


May 24, 2005 - Congress enacted the AMT in 1969 following testimony by the Secretary of the Treasury that 155 people with adjusted gross income above $200,000 had paid zero federal income tax on their 1967 tax returns. (See Appendix for the AMT's legislative history.) In inflation-adjusted terms, those 1967 incomes ...

[dante1]

Yeah, propaganda like showing the Grapes of Wrath in Russian theaters. The only thing was the people saw how well poor Americans lived so they had to pull the movie. Stalin was a communist, and he was running a communist country. He did his best to foster the ideas of Marx.

Hitler thought capitalism was a Jewish idea, which ought to let you know what he thought about it.

FDR didn't save capitalism at all, we didn't even have capitalism. The price of credit was set by central planners, the exact same way the price of everything was set by the Soviets.

Both Germany and Italy were constitutional monarchies prior to fascism, and the reason they went to fascism is because of WWI's aftermath and how they thought they had both been mistreated by the Treaty of Versailles.

wow, four comments and three of them complete BS.

doesn't matter what hitler thought Capitalism was alive and well in Nazi Germany. Yes, the Nazi's controlled many facets but big business thrived under the Nazis--you want to argue this fact too. VW, Mercedes, Bayer and IG Farben just to name a few.

of course we had capitalism, we have had capitalism in this country since the days of the revolutionary war--would you like to argue this also.

the treaty of Versailles was certainly a flash point but not the end all and cause of WWII. And how was Italy even involved with that when they fought on the side of the allies in WWI. Josh, you seldom know what you are talking about sir. You are a BS like most of the R.

[guitarjosh]

Okay let me try to make this easy for you. If the AMT didn't kick in until 30k in 1969, but that was indexed for inflation, the AMT wouldn't kick in until almost 209k today. Most people don't make anywhere near that. Do you understand now?


What part of 127 richest families don't you get. What part of you had to make a million dollars today but I was wrong . The threshold was 200,00 so where does that 30,000 come in josh? By the way those figures for inflation would be 1.170,000


May 24, 2005 - Congress enacted the AMT in 1969 following testimony by the Secretary of the Treasury that 155 people with adjusted gross income above $200,000 had paid zero federal income tax on their 1967 tax returns. (See Appendix for the AMT's legislative history.) In inflation-adjusted terms, those 1967 incomes ...

The argument to pass the AMT was that many people who made over 1m in today's money didn't pay federal income tax. That doesn't mean the law was made to only go after those 155 people. I believe the threshold to pay the AMT in 1969 was 30k, which would be almost 210k today if indexed for inflation.

[guitarjosh]

wow, four comments and three of them complete BS.

doesn't matter what hitler thought Capitalism was alive and well in Nazi Germany. Yes, the Nazi's controlled many facets but big business thrived under the Nazis--you want to argue this fact too. VW, Mercedes, Bayer and IG Farben just to name a few.

of course we had capitalism, we have had capitalism in this country since the days of the revolutionary war--would you like to argue this also.

the treaty of Versailles was certainly a flash point but not the end all and cause of WWII. And how was Italy even involved with that when they fought on the side of the allies in WWI. Josh, you seldom know what you are talking about sir. You are a BS like most of the R.

Big business did well because of getting deals from the government. The problem is businesses couldn't do well unless they had help from the government.

The Fed pumping money into the economy into the 1920s led to the boom, and then hiking rates led to the bust. Had the fed not sat on its hands while banks were collapsing, we could have avoided the depression and it would have been a regular recession.

Italy thought they got screwed over by the Treaty of Versailles. They entered the war on the promise from England that they would get much more land when the war was over, and they believed they got much less than what they were promised and sacrificed. This led to resentment from the Italians, which led to their militarism and land grabs in Europe and Africa.

[chico2663]

The argument to pass the AMT was that many people who made over 1m in today's money didn't pay federal income tax. That doesn't mean the law was made to only go after those 155 people. I believe the threshold to pay the AMT in 1969 was 30k, which would be almost 210k today if indexed for inflation.

josh that was from the website. You needed to make 200,000 to get hit if you did get hit. You probably don't even know why without googling. Anyone that made 30,000 didn't even need to worry about it. it isn't what you think. Man you are frustrating. You probably didn't even know abt amt unless you heard me bitching r. By the way a.m.t. doesn't go by what you make. It goes by what you deduct. It was why i never got to take my interest on the house off ever. Josh the more you argue the more I know you haven't a clue. Know i know james dean in here knows. I suspect rudy roo knows but i know you haven't a clue. It usually only hits people in sales or guys who have to wine and dine customers.

[dante1]

Big business did well because of getting deals from the government. The problem is businesses couldn't do well unless they had help from the government.

The Fed pumping money into the economy into the 1920s led to the boom, and then hiking rates led to the bust. Had the fed not sat on its hands while banks were collapsing, we could have avoided the depression and it would have been a regular recession.

Italy thought they got screwed over by the Treaty of Versailles. They entered the war on the promise from England that they would get much more land when the war was over, and they believed they got much less than what they were promised and sacrificed. This led to resentment from the Italians, which led to their militarism and land grabs in Europe and Africa.

OMG, Italy did feel they didn't get their share of spoils in WWI but it certainly wasn't the reason Mussolini came to power. Learn some world history my friend.

Don't know what your second paragraph has to do with anything we were debating.

Doesn't matter why or how big business did well, the fact is capitalism was alive and well and part of the Nazi regime. Yes, hitler said he hated capitalism but he engaged in it and yes he did subsidize some of the industries like synthetic oil and even VW, but he did not subsidize all and that is irrelevant since even capitalistic countries subsidize much to your dismay. They also do it with huge tax break and incentives, so what is your point.

Like most R when you argue you argue in circles, you argue points that are not valid and you attempt subterfuge. I answered your BS and you come back with more BS. That is one of the problems with you R crazies, when you are proven wrong you simply can't say...oh yes, that is true I missed that point. You attempted to claim Hitler was somehow not a capitalist, lol he wouldn't have even been Hitler without the German capitalists.

Brush up on your history Josh, brush up on your definitions.

Okay, I will not go back and forth with you again because I don't like doing that. I made my points they are valid and you may have the last word.

[guitarjosh]

josh that was from the website. You needed to make 200,000 to get hit if you did get hit. You probably don't even know why without googling. Anyone that made 30,000 didn't even need to worry about it. it isn't what you think. Man you are frustrating. You probably didn't even know abt amt unless you heard me bitching r. By the way a.m.t. doesn't go by what you make. It goes by what you deduct. It was why i never got to take my interest on the house off ever. Josh the more you argue the more I know you haven't a clue. Know i know james dean in here knows. I suspect rudy roo knows but i know you haven't a clue. It usually only hits people in sales or guys who have to wine and dine customers.

First of all, I can tell it's from a website, it's in a different font. Secondly, it doesn't say that you needed to make at least 200k to get hit, it says

testimony by the Secretary of the Treasury that 155 people with adjusted gross income above $200,000 had paid zero federal income tax on their 1967 tax returns.

That doesn't mean you must make 200k to get hit, it is showing that people who would have made millions in today's money didn't pay income tax due to so many loopholes, which goes back to an earlier point I was making in this thread, the tax burden has shifted more to wealthy people in those years, because we've moved left.

You're saying you needed to make at least 200k to pay the AMT using 1969 dollars? You're the one who said the AMT only hit 126 families. My argument is that if it only hit 126 families in 1969, if we indexed it to inflation, which we didn't do at the creation of the AMT, we would have a very small number of people impacted by the AMT, not middle class families getting hit now.

[guitarjosh]

And this is the problem with dealing with Dante, he makes claims but does little to back them up.

OMG, Italy did feel they didn't get their share of spoils in WWI but it certainly wasn't the reason Mussolini came to power. Learn some world history my friend. He says I'm wrong, but refuses to say why, and finishes by telling me to learn history. He didn't share 1 fact to back up his claim.

Don't know what your second paragraph has to do with anything we were debating.

Doesn't matter why or how big business did well, the fact is capitalism was alive and well and part of the Nazi regime. Yes, hitler said he hated capitalism but he engaged in it and yes he did subsidize some of the industries like synthetic oil and even VW, but he did not subsidize all and that is irrelevant since even capitalistic countries subsidize much to your dismay. They also do it with huge tax break and incentives, so what is your point. He claims Hitler engaged in capitalism, but again doesn't provide any real examples, all he says is that both so called capitalist countries and Nazi Germany in some way subsidized private business.

Like most R when you argue you argue in circles, you argue points that are not valid and you attempt subterfuge. I answered your BS and you come back with more BS. That is one of the problems with you R crazies, when you are proven wrong you simply can't say...oh yes, that is true I missed that point. You attempted to claim Hitler was somehow not a capitalist, lol he wouldn't have even been Hitler without the German capitalists. He didn't answer anything I said, again, this is typical Dante, doesn't elaborate on anything, doesn't provide any facts to back up his claims, just shows up, says you're wrong, I'm proven to be right, and if you don't see it, learn history.

Brush up on your history Josh, brush up on your definitions.

Okay, I will not go back and forth with you again because I don't like doing that. I made my points they are valid and you may have the last word.

[chico2663]

but it never hit someone making 30,000. The way amt works is that if you take to many deductions in comparison to you gross income. The govt set a predetermined percentage that you must pay. Now just to make 200,000 didn't hit you. It was if you made over 200,000 adjusted growth. Then you take off your exemptions. Me i always traveled about 70,000 miles just for work. I got audited 3 times and the irs had to give me more of a refund. I never took my postage off for work which was about 5200 a year. They would ride with me for 3 days and then would admit they were wrong. But if a person made 200,000 back then before exemptions and wrote it down to nothing they would have to pay. Just like trump got stuck a shitload because he took to much exemptions. If someone made less than 200,000 during johnson the i.r.s didn't bother them. The reason i know this is because my uncle worked at brown and root. He got in argument with his boss . A big client of theirs liked his work. Band r offered him his job back. He said no and started his own business. He charged them 60 an hour and his helper 30 an hour. He has done business with all the big boys.Brown and root is hallerburton now. He got hit with a.m.t. and explained this to me when i was building oil rigs

[guitarjosh]

but it never hit someone making 30,000. The way amt works is that if you take to many deductions in comparison to you gross income. The govt set a predetermined percentage that you must pay. Now just to make 200,000 didn't hit you. It was if you made over 200,000 adjusted growth. Then you take off your exemptions. Me i always traveled about 70,000 miles just for work. I got audited 3 times and the irs had to give me more of a refund. I never took my postage off for work which was about 5200 a year. They would ride with me for 3 days and then would admit they were wrong. But if a person made 200,000 back then before exemptions and wrote it down to nothing they would have to pay. Just like trump got stuck a shitload because he took to much exemptions. If someone made less than 200,000 during johnson the i.r.s didn't bother them. The reason i know this is because my uncle worked at brown and root. He got in argument with his boss . A big client of theirs liked his work. Band r offered him his job back. He said no and started his own business. He charged them 60 an hour and his helper 30 an hour. He has done business with all the big boys.Brown and root is hallerburton now. He got hit with a.m.t. and explained this to me when i was building oil rigs

So it appears you're saying that prior to Carter, if you made less than 200k a year, the IRS wouldn't bother you about the AMT, right? What if they had just adjusted for inflation every year, what would that threshold be now?

[chico2663]

josh you do need a history lesson. In maybe 1920 a group of veterans who felt they weren't being treated well formed a party. They marched on the capital and the king of spain told him he could form a govt. Sort of like the english situation. He started out being fair but overtime started dismantling the democracy. (remind you of what our feckless leader wants to do) Whenever someone opposed him violence was used afterawhile he put himself in charge

[guitarjosh]

josh you do need a history lesson. In maybe 1920 a group of veterans who felt they weren't being treated well formed a party. They marched on the capital and the king of spain told him he could form a govt. Sort of like the english situation. He started out being fair but overtime started dismantling the democracy. (remind you of what our feckless leader wants to do) Whenever someone opposed him violence was used afterawhile he put himself in charge

What are you talking about?

[chico2663]

josh it was a puzzle . You had to make over 200,000 and also take big percentage off. So if you made 200,000 and took 101,000 in deductions than they would mess with you. But if u made300,000 and took regular deductions they didn't bother u. it has to do with the percentage of income and the deductions you took. Just like bloomberg. He makes more than trump supposedly. But his deductions weren't above the thresh hold so he doesn't pay it. But trump who is a builder so he always has to wine and dine has more deductions. So he will get hit. It is the percentage of deductions.

[chico2663]

What are you talking about?

how mussolini came to power. Not sure of yrs but sure of how he came to power. I got stuck doing a paper on him in the 80's in college

[guitarjosh]

josh you do need a history lesson. In maybe 1920 a group of veterans who felt they weren't being treated well formed a party. They marched on the capital and the king of spain told him he could form a govt. Sort of like the english situation. He started out being fair but overtime started dismantling the democracy. (remind you of what our feckless leader wants to do) Whenever someone opposed him violence was used afterawhile he put himself in charge



how mussolini came to power. Not sure of yrs but sure of how he came to power. I got stuck doing a paper on him in the 80's in college

Okay. First of all, Mussolini was Italian. ITALIAN. The King of Spain never told him anything about forming a government. Yes, he along with many veterans were very unhappy with the Italian government in the aftermath of WWI. My initial point was that Khicks said that failed capitalism becomes fascism. I replied by telling him

Both Germany and Italy were constitutional monarchies prior to fascism, and the reason they went to fascism is because of WWI's aftermath and how they thought they had both been mistreated by the Treaty of Versailles.

So it seems we agree. The aftermath of WWI along with the Treaty of Versailles caused the rise of fascism.

josh it was a puzzle . You had to make over 200,000 and also take big percentage off. So if you made 200,000 and took 101,000 in deductions than they would mess with you. But if u made300,000 and took regular deductions they didn't bother u. it has to do with the percentage of income and the deductions you took. Just like bloomberg. He makes more than trump supposedly. But his deductions weren't above the thresh hold so he doesn't pay it. But trump who is a builder so he always has to wine and dine has more deductions. So he will get hit. It is the percentage of deductions.

At this point, I'm wondering why you posted about the AMT this in the thread. My whole reason for bringing up the AMT in the first place was to show that wealthy people weren't paying income tax due to all the deductions, which you seem to agree with.

[dante1]

And this is the problem with dealing with Dante, he makes claims but does little to back them up.

but I did back them up with plenty of facts, just like I backed up our discussion about socialism. you simply did not know the defintion of the term my friend, it was as simple as that. what is to back up.

tonight you made a claim about Nazi/capitalism, I proved you wrong by listing a very few very capitalistic big businesses doing very well during the Nazi regime.

so again you are BS, you are the guy that makes claims. when I write I prove, simple as that. you are wrong again. you are almost always wrong. you simply can't admit it.

again you could have the last word because I have made my points. you are like dwightie, you feel if you cover up your opponents comments you win. go ahead cover them up, you and I and everybody else knows you lost this discussion.

[guitarjosh]

but I did back them up with plenty of facts, just like I backed up our discussion about socialism. you simply did not know the defintion of the term my friend, it was as simple as that. what is to back up.

tonight you made a claim about Nazi/capitalism, I proved you wrong by listing a very few very capitalistic big businesses doing very well during the Nazi regime.

so again you are BS, you are the guy that makes claims. when I write I prove, simple as that. you are wrong again. you are almost always wrong. you simply can't admit it.

again you could have the last word because I have made my points. you are like dwightie, you feel if you cover up your opponents comments you win. go ahead cover them up, you and I and everybody else knows you lost this discussion.

You didn't at all, you named some companies that did well, but didn't mention that they were completely under control of the government. That is the main point of fascism, private ownership, government control, which was going on in Germany. Whether they were subsidized or not isn't the main issue, it's about control. One of the main tenants of fascism is a government that controls and manages the economy so that it works for everyone, not just the few at the top. The idea for the Volkswagen Beetle came from Hitler, who told Porche to create a car that the average German family could have. Oskar Schindler had a factory, but the Nazi government told him what he would do with his factory and equipment to best benefit the German people. Yes, some German companies did well, a lot of which is because they were making parts for the military, but a private company being profitable is hardly proof that a country is capitalist. Alibaba is one of the largest companies in the world, they're based out of China, so I guess you think China is capitalist, even though they're heavily regulated.


You never could define economic fascism, I'm happy to do that for you.

BTW, I used the definition of socialism that you gave me. The problem is that you always change the definitions of words to suit your current argument.

[rkelly110]

but it never hit someone making 30,000. The way amt works is that if you take to many deductions in comparison to you gross income. The govt set a predetermined percentage that you must pay. Now just to make 200,000 didn't hit you. It was if you made over 200,000 adjusted growth. Then you take off your exemptions. Me i always traveled about 70,000 miles just for work. I got audited 3 times and the irs had to give me more of a refund. I never took my postage off for work which was about 5200 a year. They would ride with me for 3 days and then would admit they were wrong. But if a person made 200,000 back then before exemptions and wrote it down to nothing they would have to pay. Just like trump got stuck a shitload because he took to much exemptions. If someone made less than 200,000 during johnson the i.r.s didn't bother them. The reason i know this is because my uncle worked at brown and root. He got in argument with his boss . A big client of theirs liked his work. Band r offered him his job back. He said no and started his own business. He charged them 60 an hour and his helper 30 an hour. He has done business with all the big boys.Brown and root is hallerburton now. He got hit with a.m.t. and explained this to me when i was building oil rigs

AMT's gone. Trumpy bear happy now along with many of his friends.

[chico2663]

Okay. First of all, Mussolini was Italian. ITALIAN. The King of Spain never told him anything about forming a government. Yes, he along with many veterans were very unhappy with the Italian government in the aftermath of WWI. My initial point was that Khicks said that failed capitalism becomes fascism. I replied by telling him

So it seems we agree. The aftermath of WWI along with the Treaty of Versailles caused the rise of fascism.




At this point, I'm wondering why you posted about the AMT this in the thread. My whole reason for bringing up the AMT in the first place was to show that wealthy people weren't paying income tax due to all the deductions, which you seem to agree with.

Josh i just misspoke. I know it was italy. I m just old but if you don t believe wat i say just google it

[chico2663]

Wealthy always get around screwing us. My uncle made over 5 mil a yrs and paid 18 %.i made 150 thousand and because of self employment both ends of s.s. state and city paid 53%.did he pay more in taxes. Yes but did he get a better break than i did. Hell yes

[guitarjosh]

Josh i just misspoke. I know it was italy. I m just old but if you don t believe wat i say just google it

Here's what I wrote:

So it seems we agree. The aftermath of WWI along with the Treaty of Versailles caused the rise of fascism.

[chico2663]

the rise of fcism was because many ww1 vets thought they weren't being taken care by the govt. Not sure if it was treaty but the king i'm sure of. mussolini was very similar to hitler. except mussolini didn't blame everything on the jews. funny because almost every book i have read on hitler says his paternal grandfater was

[PAULYPOKER]

Actually I was posting directly from politifact, and they said that we only spend 16% of our budget on defense.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...g-internet-mi/

Sites That Report on Censorship

While most of the following sources do provide some general news, their primary roles are to monitor censorship and the restriction of information on specific Government topics.
:

• PolitiFact (politifact.com)
• Open Secrets (opensecrets.org)
• FactCheck (factcheck.org)
• Watchdog (watchdog.org)