WNBA Interview with Right Angle Sports

[Edward-RAS]

Well right now that 2009 record is only found in that tiny box. You still clearly have that 56% win rate the past two seasons on the front of your website. Why don't you put up your win rate and units for the last season and this season combined on the front of your site? You are just living off that 2008 record, plain and simple.

It is not a "tiny" box, and it is displayed on six different pages of our website. No effort has been made to hide it whatsoever.

I only wish other handicapping services displayed their past and current results as transparently and thoroughly as we do.

Not only that, but we are not a service that releases Phx -7.5 2 UNITS, -4 1H 3 UNITS, and -330 ML 2 UNITS, and counts it at 3-0 +7.0 UNITS if Phx wins all three. Our records and unit earnings are not inflated in anyway by correllated plays, rogue lines, overnight lines, hard to find derivatives, or unrealistic unit ratings.

[bankjob]

Just seems to me that if Ed/Ras were so successful they wouldn't need to come into a handicapping forum and tout themselves as the "industry's best". He would be making so much money off his own bets in combination with return paying customers he wouldn't need to come on here and argue with everyone.

Just me, I wouldn't buy anything from this service, it's just shady with the opening lines and closing numbers. Most ordinary people don't have the time to be on call to win with this website before or when the lines move.

I can't even believe someone actually pays for this service. They don't even give writeups or analysis for their losing plays anymore. Get real

[sweetjones55]

No effort has been made to hide it whatsoever.

I only wish other handicapping services displayed their past and current results as transparently and thoroughly as we do.[/B]

That's a lie. I got an email from RAS trying to sell me the WNBA package. All it talked about was the past two seasons records combined. It NEVER mentioned last years record or units for last years season.

[Edward-RAS]

That's a lie. I got an email from RAS trying to sell me the WNBA package. All it talked about was the past two seasons records combined. It NEVER mentioned last years record or units for last years season.

First you were talking about a website, now you are talking about an e-mail. We always focus on long term results, not short term. We do the exact same thing on the RAS site home page and about us page. Records are not given for only the past season (even though they were fantastic) they are given for the past 3 seasons because we feel that is most reflective of what will happen in the future.

[sweetjones55]

LOL GL on your plays.

[Edward-RAS]

Just seems to me that if Ed/Ras were so successful they wouldn't need to come into a handicapping forum and tout themselves as the "industry's best". He would be making so much money off his own bets in combination with return paying customers he wouldn't need to come on here and argue with everyone.

Just me, I wouldn't buy anything from this service, it's just shady with the opening lines and closing numbers. Most ordinary people don't have the time to be on call to win with this website before or when the lines move.

You are right, we do not "need" to come into forums and defend ourself, we would be just fine without doing so, but I take a lot of pride in what this service has accomplished and believe very strongly in it. When I see misinformation posted in forums, I feel a responsibility to correct it.

There is NO SUCH THING as a service who has won as much as us, for as long as us that does not influence the market (move lines) with their releases. We understand that the service can be difficult to follow and is not for everyone. This is talked about at length on our website, including a warning on our order page.

[sweetjones55]

Ed how do you insure that all your members get the same line you put out and not the highly inflated line once you put out a play if the line moves in less than 10 seconds?

That's a good question, How fast do the WNBA lines move once RAS releases the plays? Does anyone get the plays on here, do you always get in before the line move?

The whole "line value" that RAS claims goes completely out the window if you have to get the pick locked in in less than 1 minute. I am actually starting to think that RAS may be the worst in the industry of any sport and handicapping service at extracting line value for their members if the lines really move in 20 seconds. I have never seen a service that moves every single line and by 2-3 points on most games.

No wonder I never got an answer to this question even though I asked a few times on this thread. You seem to have a response to every one of my posts but stayed rather quiet about this one.

[Edward-RAS]

Lol well you need to wake up because your members want winners NOW.

If the records for the past 3 seasons are most reflective of what will happen then how come you don't include this years numbers on the front of your website instead of just talking about the past two seasons and that 56%?

You are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion does not represent the entire sports betting community or our subscriber base. When I say long term results, I do not mean 48 plays. Everyone wants to win every day, week, and month, but that is not realistic in sports betting.

From Feb 28-Mar 13, 2009, RAS CBB totals went 6-18 (-13.8 units). Someone with your type of thinking would have probably said "screw this" and quit following. RAS CBB totals have gone 136-77 (+51.3 units) since.

From Dec 30-Feb 2, 2010, RAS CBB sides went 25-41 (-20.40 units). Again, someone with a short term perspective would have likely quit following. RAS CBB Sides have gone 41-24 (+16.50 unit) since.

Similarly, our 2010 WNBA plays started on a 6-14 run, but they have gone 12-6 since.

All handicappers will experience positive and negative variance over the short term. As long as they truly have a long term edge (not easy to find) in the market they are handicapping, everything will work itself out over time.

[Edward-RAS]

No wonder I never got an answer to this question even though I asked a few times on this thread. You seem to have a response to every one of my posts but stayed rather quiet about this one.

We can provide important tips, guidelines, and advice on how to get the best line possible, but we have no way to insure that every client can get the line we release at. No service that influences the market like we do (Dr Bob, etc.) can. We talk about this issue at length on our website, including our order page. Again, the service is not for everyone, but if you are able to get the release line, then it should be an easy decision to subscribe.

As Fezzik posted on his forum last week, if you bet 1 unit on the released pick, and 3/4 unit on the opposite side after line movement, you are virtually guaranteed not to lose.

[sweetjones55]

You are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion does not represent the entire sports betting community or our subscriber base. When I say long term results, I do not mean 48 plays. Everyone wants to win every day, week, and month, but that is not realistic in sports betting.

From Feb 28-Mar 13, 2009, RAS CBB totals went 6-18 (-13.8 units). Someone with your type of thinking would have probably said "screw this" and quit following. RAS CBB totals have gone 136-77 (+51.3 units) since.

From Dec 30-Feb 2, 2010, RAS CBB sides went 25-41 (-20.40 units). Again, someone with a short term perspective would have likely quit following. RAS CBB Sides have gone 41-24 (+16.50 unit) since.

Similarly, our 2010 WNBA plays started on a 6-14 run, but they have gone 12-6 since.

All handicappers will experience positive and negative variance over the short term. As long as they truly have a long term edge (not easy to find) in the market they are handicapping, everything will work itself out over time.

I know this just as well as anyone. I posted over 305 plays in the NBA this year and had my ups and downs, I am currently at 60% for the year and document everything here on SBR. You can't survive a full NBA season with as many plays as I did with that kind of thinking you are saying I supposedly have.

I am not arguing your success in college basketball or any other sport. I am talking about the WNBA which you had a negative season in last year and have followed that up with another negative half a season this year after increasing the price of the package.

[Edward-RAS]

Our lifetime WNBA win rate is right at 55% through 211 plays. Even that is too small of a sample size to conclude a whole lot, but I know how talented our team is, and how good our information sources are, so I fully expect us to maintain a profitable long term edge in the sport.

[Johnny 55]

Edward- You are wasting your time arguing with these people, you are speaking a different language that they simply dont understand.

[sweetjones55]

Another month in the books and you are still nowhere near even covering the cost of the WNBA package, +1.35 units so far this year. Over the last two years and 176 WNBA plays you guys have generated a whopping -1.25 UNITS for your members. Are you planning on raising the prices on the WNBA package again next year?

[Johnny 55]

Statistics are fun sweetjones, lets try another one. Over the last 3 years, RAS has generated 16.85 units worth of profits, throw in the halftime plays and it is quite a bit more. Anyone can take small sample sizes and deduce stupid things as you just did but if you really want to make money, large sample sizes are a much more clear indication of if you will win long term.

[RoagBettor]

SexyMit is the best in WNBA, no one else comes close. He's hitting over 70% and that's on top of a 400% return last year documented right here on Sbr. Period, end of discussion.

[Edward-RAS]

Another month in the books and you are still nowhere near even covering the cost of the WNBA package, +1.35 units so far this year. Over the last two years and 176 WNBA plays you guys have generated a whopping -1.25 UNITS for your members. Are you planning on raising the prices on the WNBA package again next year?

The HoopsEdge WNBA service has produced a 55.91% lifetime win rate. After a 6-14 start, the service has gone 33-19 since. Second half plays are not counted in the official record, but have hit over 60% YTD as well.

The service continues to consistently beat the closing line by wide margins, more so than any WNBA service out there. If you are able to get the release line, it should be an easy decision to subscribe as you can almost guarantee profit simply by hedging out a portion of your orginial bet after line movement. Past results suggest you would be more profitable staying 100% long, but this is just an additional option available to HoopsEdge subscribers that is not avaialble with any other WNBA service.

[sweetjones55]

Statistics are fun sweetjones, lets try another one. Over the last 3 years, RAS has generated 16.85 units worth of profits, throw in the halftime plays and it is quite a bit more. Anyone can take small sample sizes and deduce stupid things as you just did but if you really want to make money, large sample sizes are a much more clear indication of if you will win long term.

So let me get this right Johnny. You think 16.85 units profit in three years is good for a website that says it is the best in the business??? That is +5 Units profit a year which IMO is downright terrible, Ed would even agree with me on that. The service costs around $700-$800 I believe so you aren't even making money betting $150 a game and making 5 units a year.

[sweetjones55]

The HoopsEdge WNBA service has produced a 55.91% lifetime win rate. After a 6-14 start, the service has gone 33-19 since. Second half plays are not counted in the official record, but have hit over 60% YTD as well.

The service continues to consistently beat the closing line by wide margins, more so than any WNBA service out there. If you are able to get the release line, it should be an easy decision to subscribe as you can almost guarantee profit simply by hedging out a portion of your orginial bet after line movement. Past results suggest you would be more profitable staying 100% long, but this is just an additional option available to HoopsEdge subscribers that is not avaialble with any other WNBA service.

You keep on talking about beating close lines by wide margins but you are really misleading people. You move EVERY line pretty much regardless of whether it is a good play or not. And 95% of people can't even get the same line you get so it makes zero difference. It's actually worse that you beat closing lines every time, if you didn't then your members may even get better lines than you put out.

You have been doing better, I will give you that. But at the end of the day I think you made the wrong decision raising prices after a non-profitable year. That was just uncalled for after losing your members money last year going -2.6 units on top of the price of the package. That's the only problem I have with you guys and why I keep track of the service. I don't understand how a service who claims they are the best in the biz lost their members probably around $1000 each last year would raise the prices this year. I really wanted to see if you would justify it with a stellar year this year.

[Edward-RAS]

So let me get this right Johnny. You think 16.85 units profit in three years is good for a website that says it is the best in the business??? That is +5 Units profit a year which IMO is downright terrible, Ed would even agree with me on that. The service costs around $700-$800 I believe so you aren't even making money betting $150 a game and making 5 units a year.

We have never said we were the best in the business, on the website or otherwise.

No, I do not agree with your assessment. Any one who is taking sports betting seriously knows that a 56% win rate provides a great ROI.

[sweetjones55]

We have never said we were the best in the business, on the website or otherwise.

No, I do not agree with your assessment. Any one who is taking sports betting seriously knows that a 56% win rate provides a great ROI.

Do you think +5 UNITS in one year is good? I never talked about win rate, 56% doesn't mean you are profitable.

As for you not saying you are the best in the biz, you charge by far the most of any service for the WNBA package. When you are charging the most then you must think you are better than the rest and deserve the greatest amount of money in return. You may not say it but your actions do so.

[Edward-RAS]

You keep on talking about beating close lines by wide margins but you are really misleading people. You move EVERY line pretty much regardless of whether it is a good play or not. And 95% of people can't even get the same line you get so it makes zero difference. It's actually worse that you beat closing lines every time, if you didn't then your members may even get better lines than you put out.

You have been doing better, I will give you that. But at the end of the day I think you made the wrong decision raising prices after a non-profitable year. That was just uncalled for after losing your members money last year going -2.6 units on top of the price of the package.

Closing line is not measured by how much a line moves when a pick is released, it is measured against the actual line when the game starts. There are many winning handicappers and large bettors participating in the WNBA market, if those people disagree with a HoopsEdge play, they will simply bet that number back into place, and thus we would not have any closing line value, or at least much less than the +1.40 points that we have averaged for the season. Closing line remains relavant, even in the WNBA.

Your assertion that 95% of subscribers do not get the release line, is just plain false, and an irrespsonsible attack on our service.

We have done client surveys that suggest more than half of clients do get the release line regularly. We also have customer satisfaction and retention rates that are unheard of for the industry.

[Edward-RAS]

Do you think +5 UNITS in one year is good? I never talked about win rate, 56% doesn't mean you are profitable.

As for you not saying you are the best in the biz, you charge by far the most of any service for the WNBA package. When you are charging the most then you must think you are better than the rest and deserve the greatest amount of money in return. You may not say it but your actions do so.

Depending on the number of plays and duration of season, yes, I think +5.0 units can be a very solid season. The WNBA is not exactly a high volume sport and we have always only handicapped the first 10 weeks of the season. Averaging +0.5 unit a week is nothing to scoff at.

First of all, we are not the highest priced WNBA service out there. Our subscription rates are determined by demand. As you have mentioned in this thread, all of our releases move the market quickly, and there is a lot of competition to get the best lines. The lower our prices are the more subscribers there would be competiting against one another. We really did not have much choice but to increase subscription rates this season.

[sweetjones55]

Closing line is not measured by how much a line moves when a pick is released, it is measured against the actual line when the game starts. There are many winning handicappers and large bettors participating in the WNBA market, if those people disagree with a HoopsEdge play, they will simply bet that number back into place, and thus we would not have any closing line value, or at least much less than the +1.40 points that we have averaged for the season. Closing line remains relavant, even in the WNBA.

Your assertion that 95% of subscribers do not get the release line, is just plain false, and an irrespsonsible attack on our service.

We have done client surveys that suggest more than half of clients do get the release line regularly. We also have customer satisfaction and retention rates that are unheard of for the industry.

Ok I take back my 95% comment but I have asked you this question severallll times and neverrr get an answer.

How do half your members get the same line as you do if the lines move less than ten seconds after you put them out?

[sweetjones55]

Depending on the number of plays and duration of season, yes, I think +5.0 units can be a very solid season. The WNBA is not exactly a high volume sport and we have always only handicapped the first 10 weeks of the season. Averaging +0.5 unit a week is nothing to scoff at.

First of all, we are not the highest priced WNBA service out there. Our subscription rates are determined by demand. As you have mentioned in this thread, all of our releases move the market quickly, and there is a lot of competition to get the best lines. The lower our prices are the more subscribers there would be competiting against one another. We really did not have much choice but to increase subscription rates this season.

We will agree to disagree on +5 units in a full wnba season being half decent. If a bettor can't make money betting $150 a game then I can't understand how that is good in any way.

You may not be THE highest priced service but you are definitely up there. Does anyone charge a significant amount more than you, who is it? PM me if you don't want to mention names here, I just want to see how they are doing.

[Edward-RAS]

How do half your members get the same line as you do if the lines move less than ten seconds after you put them out?

Use our countdown release page to receive picks (not e-mail or text which can be subject to delays), be well prepared to bet quickly, and experiment with different sportsbooks and methods until you find a workable solution.

[sweetjones55]

Use our countdown release page to receive picks (not e-mail or text which can be subject to delays), be well prepared to bet quickly, and experiment with different sportsbooks and methods until you find a workable solution.

Ok that's a fair answer but I'm sure all the reputalbe, big sportsbooks have caught unto this . I am thinking most have to use a lesser known, smaller sportsbook to get the plays in.

[Edward-RAS]

We will agree to disagree on +5 units in a full wnba season being half decent. If a bettor can't make money betting $150 a game then I can't understand how that is good in any way.

We do not inflate our unit totals with a ton of 2 unit plays, or 3, 4, or 5 unit plays, or any kind of derivatives (1st halves, money lines, etc.) as some other services do. Our average unit size for the season is 1.09.

If you play 100 games and hit 55%, you win +5.5 units at 1 unit per play. 55% is a great long term win rate against widely available lines AFTER sportsbooks accept full limit bets. We release less than 100 plays per WNBA season and our win rate is 56% lifetime, so I do not understand how this could be NOT be a good thing.

You've also chosen to ignore our WNBA halftime play record (closer to 57% lifetime). We do not include it in our overall record because we understand that not all clients can be available in the narrow/random time windows that they are released. Nevertheless, these plays provide an extra value (and units) to followers of the service.

You may not be THE highest priced service but you are definitely up there. Does anyone charge a significant amount more than you, who is it? PM me if you don't want to mention names here, I just want to see how they are doing.

I don't know what is significant to you, but there are at least two WNBA services I know of who charge more than us.

[sweetjones55]

I personally don't think that pretty much flatbetting all year is the way to go but that's a different conversation for a different day. Please PM me those two services of you can.

[Edward-RAS]

Ok that's a fair answer but I'm sure all the reputalbe, big sportsbooks have caught unto this . I am thinking most have to use a lesser known, smaller sportsbook to get the plays in.

We post warnings and discuss this issue at length on multiple pages of our website, including our order page. There is more competition at top sportsbooks for sure, but the bottom line is that it can be done. It just requires adequate time and prep.

[Edward-RAS]

I personally don't think that pretty much flatbetting all year is the way to go but that's a different conversation for a different day. Please PM me those two services of you can.

It is simply using realistic measurement to track performance.

1 unit should be considered an average bet. If a service/handicapper uses an average unit rating that is significantly higher than 1.0 unit, their unit totals will be very misleading.

[Edward-RAS]

Please PM me those two services of you can.

My PM's are turned off.

[Edward-RAS]

If a bettor can't make money betting $150 a game then I can't understand how that is good in any way.

Forgot to comment on this.

I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of our subscribers are betting more than $150 per game. That is evidenced by how fast and dramatically the lines move.

[RoagBettor]

SJ, you are spinning your wheels in this thread.

[sweetjones55]

Well, last season you went 48-46 for -2.6 units, so what do you do? You raise the prices of the WNBA package and follow up with a +3.3 unit year. I really didn't understand the raise in prices and now with these results understand it even less. You claim a 56% win rate on your site and didn't even hit that this season after raising prices. Your bigger sized plays, 1.5-2 units, went 5-8 (38%).

After paying the $800 price for your package, A $200 bettor lost money with your package this year. A $250 made a whopping $25 this year. A $300 bettor, which is a lot for for a WNBA bettor, didn't even get a unit of profit. A $500 bettor made about 1.5 units.

Will you be raising the prices again next season???

[Edward-RAS]

We had a successful season despite a very unfortunate first two weeks which is when we are usually at our best. We also went 0-2 for -3.30 units on totals where outcomes were changed by overtime.

We have received lots of positive feedback regarding the priority delivery of second half plays via e-mail and text and plan to incorporate this feature in to our upcoming CFB and CBB services.

2010 WNBA service plays: 46-38, 54.76%, +3.30 units, +1.38 avg closing line value

2010 WNBA second half plays: 17-9, 60.71%

Lifetime WNBA service plays (2008-2010): 144-113, 56.02%, +18.80 units, +1.48 avg closing line value

Lifetime WNBA second half plays (2009-2010): 36-25, 59.02%

As always a play by play recap can be found on the pick archive page of the HoopsEdge website. Second half play archive can be found at the BT forum.

We certainly could have had higher unit earnings with some better luck, but all in all we feel good about the quality of plays we released this season. Upon examination of our body of work over the past 3 seasons, it is clear that we have a profitable edge in the WNBA market.


Edward