Problem with 5Dimes' Tony - robbed of $3600 in winnings

[Optional]

Someone help me with the definition of a sharp?

Someone who bets when the odds say to, rather than trying to pick winners.

Someone who only places bets at the book when they have the best odds in the market.

Someone who works advantageous angles in the books betting system.

Someone who focuses on smaller inefficient markets.

Stuff like that.

[daringly]

So apparently... the OP and his friend were taking a shot at 5D? Like teaming up?

Exactly. Like two friends meet in Las Vegas.

"I like 5dimes. They have lots of cool things to bet. And take decent bets on NFL."

"Yeah, do they copy lines?"

"No, they do their own thing. You'll get lots of original lines there."

"Cool. Let's you and me start a conspiracy to beat 5dimes. I'll deposit my money, make bets, and pretend I don't know you. If I win, I keep it. If I lose, it's my loss."

"Deal! Let's beat the hell out of them together!"

[Optional]

If 5Dimes is "a tightly run shop that is active in their risk management", why didn't they void the bet before the game began?

Have you had some sort of brain damage recently? Or just feel like posting utter bullshit to stir the pot?

They don't have to detect fraud before a bet is placed or be liable to pay any lucky scammer who is tricky enough.

And you know this very well and have said the same yourself many times.

[daringly]

Have you had some sort of brain damage recently? Or just feel like posting utter bullshit to stir the pot?

They don't have to detect fraud before a bet is placed or be liable to pay any lucky scammer who is tricky enough.

And you know this very well and have said the same yourself many times.

If they saw the bet (they did, this is a larger than normal bet for 5d), they had an opportunity to void it before the game began. Free roll penalty then drops from 1950 to 0. I'd love to have more facts in this case. Wouldn't you?

[The Kraken]

So SBR is ruling that if two players share an IP address one time, that both players are operating multiple accounts? I'd note that 5Dimes' rule does not say that. It could say that. "If you and another player share an IP or device, the second account will be treated as a multiple account, all wagers voided, and closed." 5Dimes rules do not say that, while some sportsbooks prohibit shared IP addresses in their rules. 5Dimes simply prohibits one person from having two accounts.

One player places a bet from LA, and can show he lives in LA. His friend lives in another state, and his residence has not been questioned. Both were in Las Vegas at one time, and the player/victim used an iPad in Las Vegas owned by his friend. Based on that, is it more likely than not, that the person in Las Vegas is also controlling the LA account? No reasonable person could conclude that from what little has been shown here. In the past, SBR has required more.

Prior SBR statements on this issue:
"A book should have more evidence than a simple IP match in order to determine multi accounting." http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/sportsbooks-industry/1866222-sportingbet-closes-players-account-after-winning-free-bet.html#post15796376

"The most recent problem was ID fraud related. The player was making bets from UK, and a couple cities in the U.S. The book thought the player was a beard, and he might have been... but the player is getting paid. There was no hard proof that the player committed fraud."
http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/sportsbooks-industry/345129-sportsbooks-general-policy-using-different-ip-addresses.html#post3229246

"This is the difference between an "A" book and a "B" book.

Is it reasonable to keep the winnings and pay only the deposit in a clear fraud case? Yes. A-rated books will pay the winnings, even when they are in the right. Do I hold A-rated books to a "higher than fair" standard? Yes." (there's no proof of fraud here, but A books pay fair bets, and no one has suggested the player's bet was against a bad line). http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/sportsbooks-industry/134788-another-interesting-dispute.html#post1398893

If 5Dimes is "a tightly run shop that is active in their risk management", why didn't they void the bet before the game began? If they do that, there is no free-roll issue. Consider a $4800 bet to win $4500 (I don't have the exact wager risk/win amounts). Your normal expectation would be a loss of $150 -- winning and losing 50% of the time, you lose the juice half the time. Now consider 5Dimes' free-roll expectation. If you lose $4800, your bet is valid. If you win, you get only $900 in winnings. Your expectation is win 900 half the time, lose 4800 half time. On average, you lose $1950.

Is paying a $1950 on average a fair penalty for creating an account with a friend's iPad that doesn't violate any rule? 5dimes has no rule against sharing devices or IP addresses, only against having multiple accounts. The player's only wager was from his own residence.

I'm sorry for the player here. In past cases similar to his with most books, the player would be paid. SBR has made an exception to this in the past with 5dimes, where a player didn't have to be paid when owed. 5dimes got a pass a few years ago to stiff a player on 32k (5dimes disputed the amount owed, but their arguments were not supported by their rules, and the rules in fact supported the player). There is a detailed explanation of it at http://sportsbettingsites.org/news/5...-balance-2500/.

I wish you the best, but it does not appear that SBR is investigating if you had multiple accounts. They have already ruled against you, and are once again in damage control with a legitimate 5dimes complaint.

I would also put a * by 5dimes' A rating. At the top of SBR's entry page http://www.sportsbookreview.com/, there are 6 books listed including 5dimes. SBR's ratings are for the most part accurate. With 5dimes, I'd suggest they receive an A+* rating, which is treated as about a B- rating. In most cases, 5dimes is a solid book. When you incur the wrath of Tony, there is no force on Earth that will get you a fair shake, including SBR.

There's a reason 5Dimes is still in business. Smart risk management.

[Grivas_Digeni]

daringly and Justin7 are the same person?

[Grivas_Digeni]

Have you had some sort of brain damage recently? Or just feel like posting utter bullshit to stir the pot?

They don't have to detect fraud before a bet is placed or be liable to pay any lucky scammer who is tricky enough.

And you know this very well and have said the same yourself many times.

This makes me confident there is more to the story than OP wishes to share, either because it will make him look bad or because the conditions of him getting paid any winnings included silence.

Possibly a bad line. More likely a widely available line but the side 5D really didn't want any further action on. His main problem was winning the bet, not trying to defraud. As someone who ran a bookmaking shop back in the day I can understand how unfortunate it feels to have to pay out those larger tickets. 4k must be a lot of money for 5dimes.

But calling this guy a scammer based on the info available in this thread is incorrect. In my mind he is no more a scammer than Haralabos Voulgaris. Everyone wants to take Joes' money but there aren't many books welcoming action from players like haralabob. Thinking you can book sharp action and hope to win, and then do an investigation looking for a reason not to pay. So far this thread supports such a conclusion.

This doesn't seem fair to players and interestingly even hopeless degenerate losers feel offended when they hear of stories of ill-based non-payment to a much sharper winning player. If I did something of the sort at my betting shop, I would be installing anti-vandal doors and windows complete with a 24/7 video surveillance system. Right away.

[Rollins08]

There are a couple of things here that bother me about this and I'm not clear on. 1) if the customer provided a valid ID showing his identity was different from him friends that should prove they are 2 separate people. 2). I believe I read that he only deposited from that IP address but didn't wager from that address, is that correct or incorrect? If he provided his own ID and wagered from a different address there is no reason not to pay him. It would have been very easy for this player to open account from a random IP address and not have to deal with this. The fact that he didn't shows me that it was an honest mistake. The other thing is that he took all the risk here. He still deposited the money and placed the bet. Had he lost his money would be gone. The right thing is to pay this man his money.

[daringly]

What was the bet, and when was it placed?

And to SBR: when you concluded that one player had more than one account, what else did you rely on, other than the shared IP/Device at creation?

[Ted Sheckler]

What was the bet, and when was it placed?

And to SBR: when you concluded that one player had more than one account, what else did you rely on, other than the shared IP/Device at creation?

Guy created the account at his friends house who had been limited.

What if the guy (his friend) cashed out on thursday morning and the OP created/funded his account thursday afternoon? Would that make you believe? And if that was the case, how should it be handled? Is it fair to give him his friends limited winnings (900 or whatever) or just refund his deposit or should they just pay him the 8K and boot him?

We already know 5dimes was freerolling the guy, as they should if the guy created the account the same day as his friend was limited and cashed out.

[Wesley Snypes]

daringly and Justin7 are the same person?

ya different personalities though. both of em have angle shot and scammed books in the past . he tried distancing himself from SBR after he was called out on pumping up BI as much as any one, maybe cuz he had a balance. either way guys as trustworthy as a leprechaun

a little hungover so not gonna round up all the gems but u get the point

On Bet Islands

I have started playing with them. I don't see anything that raises an alarm. If you are beating them in a market, expect your limits to get cut... But this is a good thing from a rating perspective.

What is their break-even win-rate on 6-team teasers? Does any reputable book have better odds?

It is frustrating, but it shows they are serious about risk management.

I know Jon, the owner of BetIslands... I've known him for several years. I assure you, Betislands (and Jon) have nothing to do with those other books.

Count me as an idiot then. If you use your brain, they have the best teaser options in the industry.

My impression is positive. They are a rec-book, and your limits may be cut quickly... but that is just intelligent risk management. I have nothing bad to say about them.

Bet Islands is not geared for professional players. They obviously thought you were a threat to their bottom line.

The fact that BI cuts off pro players is a good sign for their solvency.

[RonPaul2008]

This is a freeroll for 5dimes. It is one thing to cancel the bet and lock the account before the game started, but afterwards is ridiculous no matter who made the play.

[Optional]

This makes me confident there is more to the story than OP wishes to share, either because it will make him look bad or because the conditions of him getting paid any winnings included silence.

Possibly a bad line. More likely a widely available line but the side 5D really didn't want any further action on. His main problem was winning the bet, not trying to defraud. As someone who ran a bookmaking shop back in the day I can understand how unfortunate it feels to have to pay out those larger tickets. 4k must be a lot of money for 5dimes.

But calling this guy a scammer based on the info available in this thread is incorrect. In my mind he is no more a scammer than Haralabos Voulgaris. Everyone wants to take Joes' money but there aren't many books welcoming action from players like haralabob. Thinking you can book sharp action and hope to win, and then do an investigation looking for a reason not to pay. So far this thread supports such a conclusion.

This doesn't seem fair to players and interestingly even hopeless degenerate losers feel offended when they hear of stories of ill-based non-payment to a much sharper winning player. If I did something of the sort at my betting shop, I would be installing anti-vandal doors and windows complete with a 24/7 video surveillance system. Right away.

I didn't mean to imply anything about the OP.

I don't know anything more myself than we have all read in this thread.

[Natty68]

I'm just curious............ALL the books have mobile apps which allow you to place bets on your phone. Say your on the road and staying in a hotel in East Nowhere. A lot of phones look for wifi first, towers as a last resort. Technically the instant the wifi is used a second time by one, then another Bovada acct holder it will be flagged as a multiple. Or do the books force you to place bets via the towers using the phone app. This is relevant in this guys case cuz he used his friends device. Is that what raised the flag? Or was it the IP?

[Limited]

Shared IP or shared device must not and cant be a reason to confiscate winnings because it doesn't prove anything. If there are any doubts the actions against players should be taken in a verification process not freeroling them after bets are settled in players favour.

Bookies have many options how to protect themselves in an ethical way. Talking about preventing accounts abuse, voiding palps before the event, limiting, closing accounts. Voiding or confiscating winnings after the bets have been accepted is just not acceptable. It is not more than stealing money. So I agree with those of you who said that there is wild west in Costa Rica and that bookies do whatever they want. The question then is if these bookies deserve the A+ rating. Is the A+ rating something you can buy in SBR or is it something you need to earn? Not trying to protect the guy, but I am asking myself what if one day I will be a victim of dishonest unethical bookie who will accuse me something without any proves? This can happen to anyone of us. You accept and confirm the bet, you should pay the winnings. That s the standard all bettors should demand from all bookies.

[Optional]

I'm just curious............ALL the books have mobile apps which allow you to place bets on your phone. Say your on the road and staying in a hotel in East Nowhere. A lot of phones look for wifi first, towers as a last resort. Technically the instant the wifi is used a second time by one, then another Bovada acct holder it will be flagged as a multiple. Or do the books force you to place bets via the towers using the phone app. This is relevant in this guys case cuz he used his friends device. Is that what raised the flag? Or was it the IP?

We see quite a few complaints where books lock people's account for investigation due to this problem.

Most of the time, if it is a legit bookmaker, the account is cleared if there is no other connection found.

I've seen a couple of cases where students in the same school have been pinged and had all bonus winnings cancelled unfairly. And cases like this one where the player could easily be telling the truth or not but ends up penalized. But in general it's not such a big problem that we need to be paranoid about it. There has to be more than an IP or device match before they should penalize.

[relaaxx]

the gambling done offshore is not only on the games. the other gamble is the sportsbook. once you send your money you are gambling before the 1st bet. you will continue to gamble until you have every penny of your money home.

so once you send your money. good luck. you will need it. sportsbooks make all the rules. if you can't live with that you should not have sent any money off where you have absolutely no legal recourse. at least in the US that's just the way it is.

[A4K]

the gambling done offshore is not only on the games. the other gamble is the sportsbook. once you send your money you are gambling before the 1st bet. you will continue to gamble until you have every penny of your money home.

so once you send your money. good luck. you will need it. sportsbooks make all the rules. if you can't live with that you should not have sent any money off where you have absolutely no legal recourse. at least in the US that's just the way it is.

Yep, until the U.S. government gets off it's puritanical high horse we will have to bet with locals and the islands. Shame really.

[USCPHILLYGUY]

Seems like cloverfield and kraken work for 5dimes. But, in all honesty; the account should have came into question by 5dimes when this friend opened the account on the same device, not after a bet was placed, accepted and especially won. What was 5dimes waiting for?? For the actual BET to lose before they took action?

Now, I have no problem with 5dimes as I play there and have been paid $3k in the last 2 weeks with no problem. But, if they keep this guys winnings; then that will set a very bad precedent. I have a couple of friends that live within a 5 mile radius of me that have a 5dimes account; does this mean if I placed a bet from my account from my friends phone because my phone battery died, that 5dimes has the RIGHT to now Freeroll the bet? 5dimes accepted the bet and waited until the results of the game to finally take action?

I say 5dimes should pay the guy his money, then they can limit him or horse collar him or anal probe him and close his account if they want to. But, the FACT of the matter is that 5dimes allowed the account to be opened with no red flags or any problems at all. They proceeded to accept the bet with no problems, waited for the outcome of the game; then when the player wins, NOW they have a problem? GTFO of here with that BS whoever agrees with this whether it be the shills in here or whoever. Pay the guy his money.

Richard you claim you won 3k at 5dimes a few weeks ago, correct? Why not pay Willie99 the $100 you stole from him then? Just transfer it righ back to his account? Kind of interesting you tell one story you were banned from there for chip dumping but now you're a A+ customer getting 3k payouts?

[cloverfield]

Richard you claim you won 3k at 5dimes a few weeks ago, correct? Why not pay Willie99 the $100 you stole from him then? Just transfer it righ back to his account? Kind of interesting you tell one story you were banned from there for chip dumping but now you're a A+ customer getting 3k payouts?

You mean there are scammers on SBR supporting other scammers?

Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bocajuniorska]

5Dimes pay what you owe.

SBR stop covering it up with those stupid rules. Now we use an account under the same IP as other guys that happen to have been limited and their limits apply to us just cause we used same IP address? What in the fkin world?

TONY congratz nice freeroll you got from this guy. Thankfully people are aware now about this you wont get any more freerolls. What a scam.

[chance]

5Dimes pay what you owe.

SBR stop covering it up with those stupid rules. Now we use an account under the same IP as other guys that happen to have been limited and their limits apply to us just cause we used same IP address? What in the fkin world?

TONY congratz nice freeroll you got from this guy. Thankfully people are aware now about this you wont get any more freerolls. What a scam.

SBR sportsbook uses the same rule as 5Dimes to confiscate all money in accounts that accidentially use the same IP.

No way SBR is going against their site sponsor 5dimes.

[trytrytry]

this is a bad few days for post up players

[SABAlove]

SBR got back to me and said they've ruled against me. Sad for me, but since I originally posted without any $$ expectations, not unexpected given 5Dimes' aggressive customer attitude. I am a little surprised that SBR wouldn't view this kind of customer treatment as a ding in their rating system, but that up to them.

Just to clarify a couple of questions that came up on this thread, then I will go cry somewhere else:

Things I offered to help prove my story:
1. My CA ID, which matches exactly the info I gave at account signup, and
2. My Nitrogen transaction log which I believe shows pretty clearly 3 things:
A. The transfer date of the 20 BTC was 10/3, from my Nitrogen account (about a week after establishing the account in LV, and a day before placing my first and only wager, both DEFINITELY from my home in LA, if 5D wanted to check). This is the only 5D deposit.
B. There's no corresponding deposit of any kind, anytime in the past few months into my Nitrogen account that might be indicative of some scheme to book someone else's action
C. That I regularly place, win, and lose wagers of the sort (NFL sides) and amount in question
I believe this convincingly shows that it was my account, my only 5D account, my money, and my action.

After offering to provide these things to SBR, I was told they had ruled in favor of 5Dimes.

To clarify a couple of questions that have been raised about the timeline:
1. Sometime in early-mid September, my buddy is limited at 5D, after wagering primarily NCAAF and NFL sides
1a. (he maybe made 1 more bet at lower limits)
1b. Played some poker, recalls losing
2. He cashes out his full account in 1 transaction on 9/22
3. I'm visiting him in LV on 9/29, use his iPad to establish an account at his suggestion, and provide full accurate details.
4. 10/3 I'm back home in LA and fund 20BTC (~$4880) from my Nitrogen account, from my home IP. This is a 5D limit
5. 10/4 I bet to win $4500 (within my limits) on the Rams from my home IP/computer. I think I got +7. They win outright.
6. Away for the next weekend, check account after, find that wagering is suspended.
7. Eventually get in touch with Tony, get berated, called a liar, winnings confiscated. Says he will pay me $900 of winnings if I don't make a fuss and admit to having more than one account
8. I refuse to "admit" to something that isn't true. Simply state "I only have one account". Ask if there's some way I can verify or someone else to talk to. Immediate result: Account locked, buddy's account locked. I assume ALL my money has been stolen by "God". No further word from Tony
9. After being given the runaround by customer service for several days, am eventually allowed to withdraw deposit + $900 via BTC.

Nothing in this timeline has been refuted by either 5D or SBR

Appreciate SBR and their "efforts" at resolution, but there is NO WAY you can come to the conclusion that I violated any TOS, since I ONLY HAVE ONE ACCOUNT.

Perhaps 5D should just add the following TOS, to clarify: "5Dimes doesn't really like customers, large wagers, small wagers that win, people who win generally, or anyone who pisses off Tony. We reserve the right to keep your money if you violate this TOS".

That would be much more honest, and then SBR would be well covered in its decisions.

Like I said, I didn't expect much in my OP. Just wanted to share my experience at a sportsbook rated A+ by SBR. YMMV. Off to cry elsewhere.

[High3rEl3m3nt]

Alarming that SBR wouldn't review all information before making a ruling. Obviously Tony wouldn't give two squirts about any and all evidence, but SBR should have at least reviewed it. At least they were willing to tell OP straight up that they were not willing to consider his evidence and they were sticking to their initial ruling (establishes a valuable precedent for players involved in disputes with 5dimes and who might give them the fairest shake at trying to mediate a dispute).

[daringly]

5. 10/4 I bet to win $4500 (within my limits) on the Rams from my home IP/computer. I think I got +7. They win outright.

Interesting. I see that Pinny had St Louis +7 -110 10 minutes before the game began. If you bet earlier in the day, youcould have gotten +7.5 -120. Best price I see at 5Dimes on Game day was +7 -120 early in the morning, and +7.5 -130 for most of the day.

Did you pay normal vig? Why would you take a crummy number?

This makes even less sense from Tony's perspective than before. Tony probably could have laid off your bet and scalped you for 10 cents.

[trytrytry]

5Dimes Testimonials





At 5Dimes, we understand that merely satisfying customers who have the freedom to make choices is not enough. 5Dimes take great pride in our commitment to each and every player. 5Dimes focuses on building value and loyalty with our players, and maintaining our status as a premier online gaming site. But don't take our word for it. Here's what our players have to say:

""What can I say?! This is truly a first-class sportsbook in every way. The wagering selection ('menu') is huge and their customer service is the best in the business. This company truly deserves an A+ rating because they 'do things right' (even the so-called 'little things'), are honest and ethical… and make the games fun and enjoyable. There's no need to worry about 'problems', controversies or getting paid, either. I've been with them for a few years now and I know what I'm talking about. Good job, guys (and gals) at 5Dimes; a "5-Star" book if there ever was one!"

"Problem with 5Dimes' Tony - robbed of $3600"

" I'm a member of 5Dimes and I never had any problems with them in over 2 and a half years. They offer almost every line you can think of. Withdrawing my funds was done very quickly and without any bullshit at all and it's ranked as one of the top sportsbooks in Sportbookreview.com. I have never seen a complaint about this book at all."

[soxwin1917]

Interesting. I see that Pinny had St Louis +7 -110 10 minutes before the game began. If you bet earlier in the day, youcould have gotten +7.5 -120. Best price I see at 5Dimes on Game day was +7 -120 early in the morning, and +7.5 -130 for most of the day.

Did you pay normal vig? Why would you take a crummy number?

This makes even less sense from Tony's perspective than before. Tony probably could have laid off your bet and scalped you for 10 cents.

Very, very good point.

[High3rEl3m3nt]

Not an ill-intention shot at OP, but he never said that he was a sharp bettor.

[edawg]

FWIW I think OP should have been paid in full and booted. My guess 5dimes perspective goes like this you got a player beating you up a bit on NFL you throw a reasonable limit at him of 900 a side. Player withdraws his balance BTC. Later his friend max loads his account BTC and procedes to bet over 93% of it on one NFL side. Not to mention deposit coming from funds withdrew from a shop were lines are often the same and can be bet at higher limits at better juice. It is a sharp or semi sharp taking another shot at 5dimes. Honestly can't blame OP or Tony for being pissed.

[Rollins08]

I think SBR should provide the reason that this ruling was made. The combination of the ID's plus the bets being made from a different IP should have been enough in this case. SBR does not have the best reputation and should at least comment on the reasoning behind this.

[bocajuniorska]

@OP lesson learned. Dont bet on these type of shitty bookies anymore.

Ill make sure to spread around that 5Dimes is a scam. THIS is a scam... Bet365 limits winning players but they would never in the fking world do this, they limit the player but pay out any winnings up to date/ongoing bets. This is fkin ridiculous lol

[HappyHounds]

So why didn't he receive his full winnings? Seems like a scam and not something an A+ book would do.

[daringly]

I think SBR should provide the reason that this ruling was made. The combination of the ID's plus the bets being made from a different IP should have been enough in this case. SBR does not have the best reputation and should at least comment on the reasoning behind this.

SBR gave a reason. It said it was reasonable to conclude that the player had multiple accounts. As precedent, this means if any player has a shared IP with another player in the future, that is sufficient proof of multi-accounting (even though this ignores prior SBR precedent).

[chance]

SBR gave a reason. It said it was reasonable to conclude that the player had multiple accounts. As precedent, this means if any player has a shared IP with another player in the future, that is sufficient proof of multi-accounting (even though this ignores prior SBR precedent).

Exactly. A bit scary. If you recommend a site to someone be it a friend, relative or someone in your area and they win you will be accussed of multiple accounts and money will be stolen. It gives the green light to "god" like people to steal