The Soccer Volume At Betfair Is Stunning

[noyb]

I understand that many Europeans have a severe inferiority complex when it comes to discussing such things. However, it's only your extreme sensitivity to such matters that leads you to believe that this is a US versus the rest of the world discussion. It was just supposed to be about the "incredible" volume being bet on EPL games in comparison to NFL games.

We are discussing the relative betting volumes on different sports. There is nothing in that discussion which should lead to claims on "bragging rights" or superiority. Many Europeans, undoubtedly spurred on by intense feelings of inferiority and rage, came in with the old "Of course more money is bet on the EPL, you ignorant American fools, didn't you realize soccer is many times more popular than any of your stupid sports?". I have used facts and figures to show that this is actually a very ignorant way to look at the question. Meanwhile, the other side uses no facts and no figures, and just says stupid shit like "hop on a plane and come see how we do betting in the Old World!".

OK, I have said everything that needs to be said on this topic. All of the facts are on my side. If more money is bet on the EPL, it probably has more to do with the accessability of betting on the games than on soccer's worldwide popularity. Once again, that is a pretty big IF. Personally, I am not at all convinved. Most betting in the US is done with underground bookies.

The other side has provided no facts, just wild claims and ridiculous analogies about Iranian basketball. They willfully ignored the facts, for example pretending that Ligue 1 draws only 20K fans a game due to Europe having smaller stadiums, etc. It's pointless to continue.

i still don't get your point.
if your point is American Football generates more revenue than soccer in an absolute sense, you're obviously wrong. Yes, the NFL generates more revenue than the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga, etc. individually but added up all soccer leagues in the world generate more revenue than all American Football Leagues in the world (of which there are hardly any, so that makes sense).
if your point is the NFL generates more revenue than say EPL in a relative sense, you're wrong as well. America has 5 times the population of the UK, yet the NFL only gets 1,5 times the total attendance. in other words, an average American is more unlikely to visit an NFL-match than an average Brit an EPL-match (or an average Spaniard a La Liga-game, an average German a Bundesliga-game, etc.). Not sure how you measure "revenue", but I doubt if NFL-revenue is 5 times the EPL-revenue. If you think it is, I'm curious where you got this info.

.

[Thremp]

Who cares about population/sport revenue?

Get this shit out of this forum.

[KGambler]

Who cares about population/sport revenue?

Get this shit out of this forum.

Some people are interested in the topic of whether more money is wagered on EPL games than NFL games. jjgold pointed out the "incredible" volume of betting on EPL games on BetFair. Personally, the volume doesn't sound all that high to me, but I know BetFair isn't the only bookmaker/exchange out there.

So that's why we are talking about revenue, population, etc.

[KGambler]

Thank you for trying to use reason and logic.

i still don't get your point.
if your point is American Football generates more revenue than soccer in an absolute sense, you're obviously wrong. Yes, the NFL generates more revenue than the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga, etc. individually but added up all soccer leagues in the world generate more revenue than all American Football Leagues in the world (of which there are hardly any, so that makes sense).

Yes, all of the soccer leagues in the world put together produce more revenue than the NFL. I don't see why that should be relevant when we try to guess which of the leagues has the highest average volume bet on its games. I don't doubt that soccer has more money wagered on it in total than any one of the three major American sports. I still have a hard time believing that any one soccer league has more money wagered on it than the NFL.

if your point is the NFL generates more revenue than say EPL in a relative sense, you're wrong as well. America has 5 times the population of the UK, yet the NFL only gets 1,5 times the total attendance. in other words, an average American is more unlikely to visit an NFL-match than an average Brit an EPL-match (or an average Spaniard a La Liga-game, an average German a Bundesliga-game, etc.).

You forgot to consider the number of games played. There are less games played in the NFL than in EPL, so your ratios are all screwed up. The EPL plays 50% more games. The average attendance for an NFL game is about twice the average attendance for an EPL game. There is a limiting factor for stadium sizes in the US, but not in Europe. Many NFL teams play in front of 100% capacity crowds every single game. This is not true for any soccer team that has a large stadium.

The EPL has a little less than half the revenue of the NFL, so we can see there's some truth that the EPL has more revenue in a "relative" sense. That's not really relative to the issue of which league has more money wagered on it, other than to beat the dead horse that the US market is huge in comparison, and that is something which supports my view that an NFL game should have more money down on it. I guess the "relative" difference can probably be chalked up to foreign TV contracts, and not to money from England itself. I mean, those foreign contract must count for something, although it doesn't seem like much.

Not sure how you measure "revenue", but I doubt if NFL-revenue is 5 times the EPL-revenue. If you think it is, I'm curious where you got this info.

The revenues are as reported. The total revenue for the NFL is about $7B. For the EPL and Bundesliga, it's about $3B. Remember, the NFL has less games on the schedule. The difference is from the TV contracts. The NFL gets a huge viewing audience. We hear so much about the passion of Europeans for soccer, but the statistics don't lie.

Now we're supposed to believe that there is more bet on a typical EPL game than NFL game because "OMG, the whole world just loves soccer!!!" I can believe that it is possible that more money is bet on a typical EPL, but it's clearly not because of the worldwide popularity of soccer, which is not only exaggerated, but is mostly irrelvant to the discussion because "billions" of soccer fans live in poverty.

[jw]

I would say - that it seemed like the entire male population in the Uk tended to have a bet each weekend of some kind ... its a social thing ... over here in the US .. it is something that is frowned upon ...

I would have guessed that far more would have been wagered on the average EPL game than you would find wagered on the average NFL game - simply because .. in England it is almost encouraged, it is easy to do, and it is accepted.

Even with the population being 1/5th that of the US ... I would guess that there are far more "regular" gamblers in the UK on "sports" ....

[KGambler]

I would say - that it seemed like the entire male population in the Uk tended to have a bet each weekend of some kind ... its a social thing ... over here in the US .. it is something that is frowned upon ...

I would have guessed that far more would have been wagered on the average EPL game than you would find wagered on the average NFL game - simply because .. in England it is almost encouraged, it is easy to do, and it is accepted.

Even with the population being 1/5th that of the US ... I would guess that there are far more "regular" gamblers in the UK on "sports" ....

That's interesting and pertinent info... In the US, gamblers are basically looked upon as degenerates and losers. However, because many of the gamblers really are degenerates, they tend to make wagers far outstripping their bankrolls . A couple of years ago I was in a bar/restaurant and I heard the bus boy talking about a $700 bet he had on an upcoming NFL game. That's a lot of tables to bus (if you have a differnet term, it's not a waiter but the guy who cleans and sets the tables, carries some stuff, etc.). You bet on credit with illegal bookies, so people tend to get stupid. But I don't doubt that the typical Brit is more likely to bet, given the different view on gambling, the legality and the advertising.

[KGambler]

This is kind of ancillary to the question of which league has the most money wagered on it, but I looked into the claim of smaller European stadiums being the reason for the relatively tiny crowds that watch soccer in countries such as France, Portugal, Spain, etc. Not surpisingly, it's not true. Generally speaking, if they needed bigger stadiums, they would build them. That's just common sense. Outside of Germany and England, there are large stadiums that are routinely half empty. Even in Spain most teams play in half empty stadiums.

In fact, the exact opposite of this claim is actually the real truth. Many NFL teams play in front of full capacity crowds. European soccer teams do not. Where there are large stadiums, they fail to sell out consistently. In fact, even tiny stadiums don't sell out.

Here's some interesting stats.

These are the top drawing clubs in all of Europe, along with the stadium capacities. Stats are from 2008-09, when attendance was actually a little higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_attendances_of_European_football_clubs

1 FC Barcelona 79K 99K
2 Manchester United 75K 76K
3 Real Madrid 75K 80K
4 Borussia Dortmund 73K 81K
5 Bayern Munich 69K 70K
6 Schalke 04 61K 62K
7 Arsenal 60K 60K
8 Internazionale 60K 80K

That's every single European team which manages to draw 60K per game. Because these are the top drawing clubs in all of Europe, it's not surprising that the capacity percentages are mostly impressive (outside of 1 and 8, which are terrible). However, the NFL has 28 teams which average from 62-87K, and 9 of them are at 100% capacity. Dallas has an 80K seat stadium, and their average crowd is 87K because they allow "standing room only"! None of the NFL teams come anywhere close to having 20K empty seats per game.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance

The lack of large crowds at European soccer matches is not due to having smaller stadiums. Outside of England and Germany, there are teams averaging tens of thousands of empty seats. Even in England, not a single team plays at 100% capacity.

http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/attend.html

Again, the NFL has 9 teams that draw 100% capacity crowds, and most teams fall in the 95-100% range. And this is true although the NFL stadiums are much larger on average. If a top EPL team like Manchester City can't even fill a 48K seat stadium, then the problem is not that they need a 70K seat stadium. The problem is that they lack a fan base.

Here's a table I found which shows the average attendance, along with stadium capacity, for one of Europe's top soccer leagues (Liga Sagres - Portugal).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Sagres#Attendance

Simply put, these figures are pathetic. The "Big 3" Portuguese teams play in front of half empty stadiums. The rest of the league draws crowds ranging from a typical MLS game down to a high school football game (a very small high school). I did not cherry pick this league to show poor attendance relative to capacity. This is the only non-EPL attendance table I could find which included stadium capacity. It's a pain to look it up individually. The Portuguese league typically ranks about 7-8th in all of Europe as far as level of play, but let's just say it is certainly top 12. Porto is currently one of the top club teams in the whole world.

Spain also features a league where most teams play in front of half empty stadiums. Incredibly, their league is generally considered the best in the world when it comes to level of play. Their top 2 teams are definitely among the 5 best in the world.

As another aside, a possible way to increase attendance is creating a European Super League. The typical European league is very top heavy, with 2-6 dynasties beating up on other teams which amount to cannon fodder. Don't think Yankees-Royals, think NYY versus a AA team...

[pjesnik24]

Dortmund and Schalke have their every home game at 100%

[KGambler]

Dortmund and Schalke have their every home game at 100%

Maybe Schalke has achieved that this year... Definitely not Dortmund...

Their stadium capacity is listed as 80,552. They averaged 76,656 last year. Very good, but not full capacity.

If you still don't believe me, look at these attendance figures from specific Bundesliga games this year:

Dec 11 80,720
Nov 27 79,200
Nov 12 80,720
Oct 3 80,720
Sep 22 70,200
Sep 11 73,600

Looks like they are having a great year on the field and attendance has improved, but still not at 100% capacity. The Bundesliga has very good attendance though. Their stadiums get pretty full. The real problem is with clubs outside of Germany and England. They have half full stadiums. For example, AC Milan is one of the most famous teams in the world and has an 80K seat stadium, but they had an average crowd of 43K last year. This year they have had crowds ranging from 22K to 80K, and have averaged 46K so far.

Again, the 8 teams I listed were the ones with the best attendances in all of Europe last year, so you should expect to see some nice stadium capacity percentages. The problem is the teams who play in front of half full stadiums. And even the top attendance list doesn't compare with the NFL or NCAAF (university student football) crowds, which routinely fill large stadiums.

[smitch124]

Also, English soccer, at least, is on much friendlier terms with sports betting than any US sport. Man City's home pitch is like a shrine to SBOBET.

[smitch124]

Also, English soccer, at least, is on much friendlier terms with sports betting than any US sport. Man City's home pitch is like a shrine to SBOBET.

or West Ham I think anyway one of those 2

[protein]

My post was not to insult anyone. The thread here should definately stay open since it´s extremely interesting.

[Tommy_de1st]

There is no way an average joe can buy a ticket for a EPL game in England. Regular season holders only (only league, not talking bout Cups or Champios League)

[noyb]

I'm going to have to throw in demographics again. In the US there are 34 NFL-teams (as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), the UK has 20 EPL-teams. There's also college football in the US (which you say is well attended, I believe you), but there's 100-s of English teams in the Championship, League 1, 2, etc etc. Obviously the lower you go the smaller the numbers, but added up they are also a factor.

Anyway, let's simplify and say the USA has 300 million people living there, the UK 60 million. That's roughly 8 million Americans per NFL-team, 3 million Brits per EPL-team. No wonder in absolute numbers an NFL-match draws a bigger crowd, they have a bigger target audience. Half the EPL comes from London or close by, difficult target audience when you have an EPL-club (and lower league club) every other mile.

The European Super League you suggested already exists and its called the Champions League (a league btw that hasn't even been considered in this whole argument and also has huge commercial interests in it).

I personally don't believe in an Euro-league that will replace national leagues completely (altough this would make Euro-soccer more like NFL, apart from being able to compare them better in threads like this I'm not convinced that would be a good thing). Maybe if you believe bigger is always better, but i don't. Every euro-league has upsets with lower-ranked clubs beating higher-ranked clubs and every league has many city-derby's with its own history and atmosphere. I have no idea if it's the same with the LA Clippers vs LA Lakers (or Mets vs Yankees), but I'd rather have a game like Barcelona - Espanyol, with all of its historic rivalry between fans and players, then Barcelona - Dortmund regardless which of the two matches has a better level of play.

[Fishhead]

SOCCER betting is exploding on U.S. soil.................U.S. punters are finally starting to realize there is no better sport to wager on.

[jjgold]

Guys..............USA does not support exchange betting like Euro Countries

If I did Matchbook would have an average of 7-10 Million per NFL game

[Tommy_de1st]

Guys..............USA does not support exchange betting like Euro Countries If I did Matchbook would have an average of 7-10 Million per NFL game

Sure it would and don't forget Live betting

[thespeculator]

There is no way an average joe can buy a ticket for a EPL game in England. Regular season holders only (only league, not talking bout Cups or Champios League)

I watch serie A, italian league on the score network every week and the stadiums are at best half full, and these stadiums aren't 60k
capacity types, the are probably closer to 40, soccer is a once a week sport like football , i am not anyway against soccer, but this idea that stadiums are full to the max for every elite league game , isn't true

[chachi]

As an American who has lived in Europe for almost twenty years, having grown up a strong NHL/MLB/NFL fan but now having become a devotee of the beautiful game ... allow me to something which is being missed.

For one, in the UK it is ILLEGAL to televise any of the Saturday afternoon professional matches at the common 3pm slot to protect the attendance levels / finances of the 100s of lower division clubs. On any given weekend generally no more than 4 of the 10 matchups will be broadcast live domestically, so revenues would increase if one were able to buy a 'team ticket' as one can with US satellite TV - think "NFL blackout" every weekend ...

Also the wikipedia stats link is quite funny ... EPL has 1/3 of the number of matches as NBA yet has 2/3 the total attendance

[Richards]

Guys..............USA does not support exchange betting like Euro Countries

If I did Matchbook would have an average of 7-10 Million per NFL game

It seems placing a bet on weekend games is more socially acceptable in the UK, correct?

There are more socially acceptable forms of sports betting than spreads/totals in the US being Bar/Office pools ("football boards") as well as Fantasy Football for prize money.

I wonder what the volume of these forms of betting would add if counted in NFL numbers?

Also, are these forms of casual/pub gambling present also in the UK for soccer?

[jw]

There is no way an average joe can buy a ticket for a EPL game in England. Regular season holders only (only league, not talking bout Cups or Champios League)

Are you shitting me ...

this weekends games ...

Sunderland have tickets available from 23 pounds ($35)
Birmingham game - tickets available on the day of the game - or in advance for around $35
Blackburn game - tickets available from 15 pounds ($25)
Wigan game - tickets available from 20 pounds ($30)
Liverpool game - tickets available from around 40 pounds ($60)

Only game not available is Arsenal .. but if you booked a couple of weeks ago - you could have got a ticket just fine ...

[Tommy_de1st]

Something has changed then

[peterd78]

biggest and best sport in the world, NFL great too but not in the same league

[Richards]

Soccer sure is the biggest by QUANTITY but quality nothing matches the NFL in how far advanced with sport is as a profession and science. The amount of planning and work and training that goes into each players workout and diet, the size and level of specialization of coaching staffs, the amount of resources and effort that goes into scouting (this may change in the EPL if Billy Bean's principles take hold in Liverpool), the facilities and amenities of the stadiums from top to bottom.

Compare the bottom ten EPL stadiums to the bottom ten NFL stadiums. okay maybe the metrodome is pretty crummy, but beyond that. Compare the top ten NFL stadiums to the top ten EPL stadiums. The EPL might go blow-for-blow in their top 3 or 4 stadiums, but falls off after that.

The NFL is ADVANCED, PROFESSIONAL, and COMPETITIVE from TOP TO BOTTOM. I don't think the EPL or any other soccer league can claim this. Some leagues are rapidly catching up though.

Disclaimer: I DON'T make the same claim about other American sports. MLB has good stadiums, good sport science, but lacks the competitiveness.

So, NFL in a league by itself, then soccer, then other sports somewhere behind.

[chachi]

Are you shitting me ...

this weekends games ...

Sunderland have tickets available from 23 pounds ($35)
Birmingham game - tickets available on the day of the game - or in advance for around $35
Blackburn game - tickets available from 15 pounds ($25)
Wigan game - tickets available from 20 pounds ($30)
Liverpool game - tickets available from around 40 pounds ($60)

Something has changed then

Well, the first four are clubs which never sell out unless ManU or Chelsea are visiting - sort of like commenting on MLB levels because of attendance levels in Cleveland or Oakland or Toronto are always crap. What is the ratio of attendance vs capacity in the bottom say 5-10 MLB sides? 60 % ish ?

[jjgold]

Soccer though does not have to be that competitive because the sport is loved by soo many people will watch

Like others have said so many more pro leagues than American Sports therefore your going to see many games with low attendance but it works!!

People watch and bet it

[tommygun]

yeah woo betfair!

[KGambler]

Also the wikipedia stats link is quite funny ... EPL has 1/3 of the number of matches as NBA yet has 2/3 the total attendance

Yeah, but the NBA games are played indoors. The stadiums only hold about 20-25K max. Even the Canadian Football League will have a larger average crowd than the NHL does in Canada, because it's played outdoors. It's not possible to average 30K for the NBA or NHL.

[KGambler]

SOCCER betting is exploding on U.S. soil.................U.S. punters are finally starting to realize there is no better sport to wager on.

Really? I wouldn't have any idea how to create soccer power ratings. What stats are used, outside of goals for/against? I would have no idea how to come up with odds for a match.

[KGambler]

Every euro-league has upsets with lower-ranked clubs beating higher-ranked clubs and every league has many city-derby's with its own history and atmosphere.

How many teams are capable of winning the Scottish Premier League? I already gave the Portuguese league as another example.

[Naz18]

This KG guy still doesn't get it, what is your obsession with attendance and revenues....You can have fans of EPL in other countries besides England and their not going to contribute much to the revenue and certainly nothing to attendance. Also you keep on mentioning about poverty, that is only half the world not something like 5 billion.

Also one of the reasons these soccer leagues are top heavy is because the leagues are set up so the best team wins. Their is no playoff system where half the teams get a shot or even unbalanced divisions.