Lebron Closing in on Jordan

[Doc JS]

As I posted above (if you read the thread) Lebron's current numbers are equal to Oscar's when you adjust for the pace of the game today versus back then. Same thing applies to Wilt. Are you aware that offensive goaltending was legal when Wilt averaged 50 a game? Over 20% of his points came from redirecting teammates shots at the rim.

Again, Jordan hadn't won anything after 6 years either. Lebron is about to win his second MVP, and it will be unanimous

Please stop with "adjust for the pace of the game today" BS. Are they still playing 48 minute games? YES. Is the shot clock still 24 seconds? YES. Is the floor 94 feet and the goal 10 feet high? YES AND YES

So, he is either averaging a triple double or he isn't. (and he isn't)

He's either averaging 50 points a game or he isn't. (and he isn't)

So really, what you're saying is, he doesn't have the numbers that Oscar and Wilt had...

And he still hasn't won anything...

Now, Lebron may turn out to be the greatest basketball player in the known world and universe...but to this point, HE ISN'T. and it isn't even CLOSE.

Doc

[BernardMadoff]

I love how people like to use the word parity. pleeeeaaaaseeee, then the league had more great players on different teams than ever such as Magic, Bird, Olajuwan, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson, Stockton, Malone, the list goes on. That was parity. Hell, look at the first Dream team. There was never one even close to that, LOL. How old are you Williams?

Im guessing very early 20's.

[UntilTheNDofTimE]

Lebrons James plays in a era of Basketball where it is illegal to play defense. Williams keeps talking about pace adjustment how about talking about rule change adjustments. Like the hip-check, zone defenses, and much many other rules.

The hip check transformed nash from a above average point guard to one of the top 5 point guards of all time and the best point guard in the league. In todays NBA you can't stop a player from penetrating into the line because you cant touch a player outside of the key. You can't deny a player the ball from the inbound because if you so happen to touch lebrons arm its a foul.

I remember watching jazz games where Jordan would have to run off 4 screens just to touch the ball. Lebron is so uncoordinated driving to the hoop its not even funny. Like a big gorilla that takes 1 step forward, 1 step into his defender then throws the ball up to get 2 free throws to step miss 40% of his free throws in the clutch.

Lebron has the team mates to win the championship this year and if he dosent then he has no excusses. What does he need amare stoudemire and dwayne wade to win a championship? He has plenty of talent around him. In my opinion he wont even get past the Magic this year.

In my mind lebron has the skills to eventually be better than Jordan. The NBA is weaker right now and as stated in the future i believe there wont be much to stop him from winning 3-6 rings before he retires. But at the current moment he is not even close to Jordans level at the same time in his career.

If Jordan played in todays NBA he would average 12-14 free throws a game at least.

[orangeheaven]

I love how you make a big deal about off-court stuff(1st retirement) about Jordan. Aight tell me what LeBron did for NBA. Everybody was glued to the TV when Jordan played. Jordan did what Tiger Woods did to golf.

And he's the reason why people are scared to play for the bulls, they are automatically compared to Jordan.

[williams22]

Please stop with "adjust for the pace of the game today" BS. Are they still playing 48 minute games? YES. Is the shot clock still 24 seconds? YES. Is the floor 94 feet and the goal 10 feet high? YES AND YES

So, he is either averaging a triple double or he isn't. (and he isn't)

He's either averaging 50 points a game or he isn't. (and he isn't)

So really, what you're saying is, he doesn't have the numbers that Oscar and Wilt had...

And he still hasn't won anything...

Now, Lebron may turn out to be the greatest basketball player in the known world and universe...but to this point, HE ISN'T. and it isn't even CLOSE.

Doc

So everyone who plays the game today is worse because the game has changed and negatively effects stats?

Again I say, offensive goaltending was LEGAL when Wilt and Oscar played. Don't you think that might have helped their numbers a bit? Also, the league shot a much lower % which created inflated rebounding numbers.

[michalis]

williams wtf man is lebron cutting you a paycheck? why do have to go on and on about this guy? why do you have to prove to everyone that he is the best

he is an amazing player

but he'll never be michael jordan

no matter what his stats are, no matter how many rings he gets

[kobefanatic]

williams wtf man is lebron cutting you a paycheck? why do have to go on and on about this guy? why do you have to prove to everyone that he is the best

he is an amazing player

but he'll never be michael jordan

no matter what his stats are, no matter how many rings he gets

[orangeheaven]

Again I say, offensive goaltending was LEGAL when Wilt and Oscar played. Don't you think that might have helped their numbers a bit?

They call fouls on everything now, back then no blood no foul. Don't you think that might have helped his number?

[williams22]

They call fouls on everything now, back then no blood no foul. Don't you think that might have helped his number?

Oscar averaged 11 FT attempts per game.

[kobefanatic]

the refs today are more biased and the game is more rigged now

[williams22]

the refs today are more biased and the game is more rigged now

You can't seriously expect to make incredibly broad, oversimplified statements like that and be taken seriously.

[Chi_archie]

Williams you don't recall Jordan's dad being murdered?


do you recall his horrific finger "injury"

do you not know of his gambling?

[kobefanatic]

You can't seriously expect to make incredibly broad, oversimplified statements like that and be taken seriously.

can't you see those golden boys get superstar treatment every now and then? especially wade in that 06 finals, how many ft did he get in that series? and lebron too he gets way too many call to goes in his way, he gets away with murder, traveling and his crab dribble

[williams22]

Williams you don't recall Jordan's dad being murdered?


do you recall his horrific finger "injury"

do you not know of his gambling?

What I meant was I certainly recall the gambling and his dad being murdered, but I was asking for further explanation as to the cause of the murder and the finger injury. I'm not remembering the injury off the top of my head. I do however believe that Jordan's incredible gambling addiction had something to do with his first retirement.

[williams22]

can't you see those golden boys get superstar treatment every now and then? especially wade in that 06 finals, how many ft did he get in that series? and lebron too he gets way too many call to goes in his way, he gets away with murder, traveling and his crab dribble

Did you ever watch what Jordan got away with? Lebron takes much more contact with no-calls than pretty-boy Kobe.

[kobefanatic]

Did you ever watch what Jordan got away with? Lebron takes much more contact with no-calls than pretty-boy Kobe.

kobe gets hack more than lebron and gets no foul called

[kobefanatic]

yeah looks like lebron too gets away with travel most of the time, he's named the king before he gets his first ring, he hasn't even win one yet you call him the best

[williams22]

kobe gets hack more than lebron and gets no foul called

Not even close. Kobe doesn't attack the rim nearly as much anymore. He can't take contact in the air like Lebron can, anytime a finger is laid on him he bitches to the refs.

yeah looks like lebron too gets away with travel most of the time, he's named the king before he gets his first ring, he hasn't even win one yet you call him the best

He travels "most of the time"? Are you crazy? Have you ever watched Kobe's spin move? (He takes 3-4 steps most times on this move)

Lebron isn't the best yet, but he will be when all is said and done. All I'm saying in this thread is that this season he has put up one of the greatest single regular season performances ever.

[kobefanatic]

Not even close. Kobe doesn't attack the rim nearly as much anymore. He can't take contact in the air like Lebron can, anytime a finger is laid on him he bitches to the refs. He travels "most of the time"? Are you crazy? Have you ever watched Kobe's spin move? (He takes 3-4 steps most times on this move)


Lebron isn't the best yet, but he will be when all is said and done. All I'm saying in this thread is that this season he has put up one of the greatest single regular season performances ever.

i know kobe doesn't attack the basket anymore so i didn't argue about the ft attempts by those 2, same as lebron he complains a lot too, did any player in the league complain about kobe's spin move that he traveled? i think the only thing the players in the league complained was lebron dribble? i think the nba players know more than us, they are actually taking court with those players


he will become one of the best once he retires but now not yet, he is an athletic freak look at his body, built like a tank

[Doc JS]

Again I say, offensive goaltending was LEGAL when Wilt and Oscar played. Don't you think that might have helped their numbers a bit? Also, the league shot a much lower % which created inflated rebounding numbers.

Yeah, I heard ya the first time...and if Lebron was CLOSE to the numbers Wilt and Oscar put up, we could waste time deciding exactly how much that (offensive goal tending) may have impacted their (Oscar and Wilt) numbers...but since Lebron isn't CLOSE to those numbers...and I mean NOT CLOSE...it's a non-issue, IMO.

Doc

[krazey47409]

lebron is a beast makes the clutch free throws then puts them up by 2 with a layup with 17 left hope cavs hold them off so i can cash my teaser

[just2cents]

Better off

Williams you'd be better off attempting to explain the purpose of adjusted numbers. I don't think most of the people here realize that the purpose of using adjusted numbers is the same as the reason you use points per game and not total points or any other stat for the season, era, career, etc.

I don't think it's hard to understand that to compare apples to apples (statically) you'd have to bring each player into the same playing field. For instance if during a certain era rules and style of play allowed for 110 shot attempts per game and then a different era allowed for 85, it's not possible to produce the same scores without some other statistical category being monumentally different, namely field goal percentage. Assuming for instance Wilt shot the same fg% with all other things equal dragging him to a more modern era would make his per game scoring average drop by nearly 20 pts simply because the number of shots he'd be able to take would have to go down. These types of adjustments are the only way one can logically and intelligently compare the statistics of players from two different eras, otherwise you're left with a bunch of opinions. I am not supporting either argument but am merely interested in an intellectually expressed argument for either viewpoint.

I will state that in my view rings have nothing to do with ones greatness merely because "Greatness" being an individual accomplishment where as titles are team accomplishments. Individual accomplishments being for the most part totally within the players ability to accomplish can't be measured by something that is not fully in a players control. Had Kobe been unlucky enough to be on the Clippers would he not still be Great? Is Horace Grant more Great than Karl Malone? Titles are determined just as much by a GM as they are a 3rd or 4th scoring option. If Portland had selected MJ instead of Bowie would Scottie Pippen or Phil Jackson be Great? I don't even think this argument is even about Greatness but I do think it is a misdirected argument to respond to one's statement that apples to apples- statistically Lebron has put up one of the greatest regular seasons of all time by saying he doesn't have the number of rings a certain player has.

[Goat Milk]

1. Even if you think league is much more competitive today/during the 200s, your just basically validating Kobe's greatness, he was able to 3 peat with the league "much tougher" and then win another last year.

2. Yes, the teams are better I believe than they were in the past, much deeper and the talent is spread out more. However, teams in the past were just like teams today. They were worse teams possibly, but they were all on the same level- contending teams built their teams based on what the other teams did, just like today, so their was not a single (talent-wise) dominant team. Stockton Malone is arguably a better combo than Jordan Pippen. There were many other combos Hakeem and Clyde.

In conclusion, it was just as difficult to win in the past because all the contending teams were on the same level, just like they are today. It was Jordan that was able to dominate. Look at his team in comparison to others. Other teams were better (talent-wise) than the bulls. However, Jordan is Jordan.

If you would still like to argue this point, then refer to number 1. Either way, I proved you wrong.

[kobefanatic]

Not even close. Kobe doesn't attack the rim nearly as much anymore. He can't take contact in the air like Lebron can, anytime a finger is laid on him he bitches to the refs. He travels "most of the time"? Are you crazy? Have you ever watched Kobe's spin move? (He takes 3-4 steps most times on this move)

Lebron isn't the best yet, but he will be when all is said and done. All I'm saying in this thread is that this season he has put up one of the greatest single regular season performances ever.

we're not NBA players that actually play with these guys on the court look, can you at least give me one player that complains about kobe's spin move? i think none, but there are players that actually complain about lebron's crab dribble can you actually argue with those nba players that plays with them? we're not in the nba and if they don't complain about kobe's spin move then who are you to complain about it and discredit his footwork? i can talk about lebron's crab dribble because i think some player actually complain about it

[kobefanatic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyc6eiYnbZw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpQBD672HkQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF3P2Lr9NAY&feature=related

3 videos that actually said lebron does travel with his crab dribble, these guys work in the nba and know more than you do, 3 of them actually played in the nba, jalen rose, payton and webber

please find one ACTUAL analyst that talks about kobe traveling with his spin move, i found one 3 vids that talks about lebron's travel, i can't find one NBA player/ analyst that talks about kobe traveling with his spin move that you just said

[whatsgood5]

That opening paragraph was pretty good .

But thanks for posting the whole thing Williams, was a pretty good read.

[williams22]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyc6eiYnbZw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpQBD672HkQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF3P2Lr9NAY&feature=related

3 videos that actually said lebron does travel with his crab dribble, these guys work in the nba and know more than you do, 3 of them actually played in the nba, jalen rose, payton and webber

please find one ACTUAL analyst that talks about kobe traveling with his spin move, i found one 3 vids that talks about lebron's travel, i can't find one NBA player/ analyst that talks about kobe traveling with his spin move that you just said

Of course you are going to find videos about the "crab dribble". He got caught traveling once and the media turned it into the story of the week. If you watch the Lakers play you should know exactly which Kobe move I'm referring to. He tends to make a spin move at around the free throw line and takes 3-4 steps when all is said and done. He doesn't attack the rim much lately so it hasn't been as prevalent, but it's there.

Also, one instance of Lebron traveling doesn't equate to him "always getting away with it". If you watch him play you will see that the crab dribble was a one-time thing. I don't think I've ever seen him make that same move a second time.

[williams22]

1. Even if you think league is much more competitive today/during the 200s, your just basically validating Kobe's greatness, he was able to 3 peat with the league "much tougher" and then win another last year.

2. Yes, the teams are better I believe than they were in the past, much deeper and the talent is spread out more. However, teams in the past were just like teams today. They were worse teams possibly, but they were all on the same level- contending teams built their teams based on what the other teams did, just like today, so their was not a single (talent-wise) dominant team. Stockton Malone is arguably a better combo than Jordan Pippen. There were many other combos Hakeem and Clyde.

In conclusion, it was just as difficult to win in the past because all the contending teams were on the same level, just like they are today. It was Jordan that was able to dominate. Look at his team in comparison to others. Other teams were better (talent-wise) than the bulls. However, Jordan is Jordan.

If you would still like to argue this point, then refer to number 1. Either way, I proved you wrong.

Did you really just suggest that Stockton/Malone was a better duo that Jordan/Pippen?! You're out of your mind.

[shoebox]

Lebron has more raw talent then Jordan but Jordans will to win superceeds him as the greatest. You can talk stats till your blue in the face but until Lebron starts to get those rings on his finger hes just another Marino. Hitting clutch shots in the postseason and winning thats all that matters, just like Manning was just a good QB until the ring. Jordan was such a clutch athlete, something that cannot be coached.

[lyon804]

LOL!! I saw that youtube before... "CRAB DRIBBLE" WOW. That was funny.. the funnier thing is when Lebron said he watched it again it was a bad call that he didn't travel

[phillybadboy]

who is the best player in the nba right now?

[kobefanatic]

Of course you are going to find videos about the "crab dribble". He got caught traveling once and the media turned it into the story of the week. If you watch the Lakers play you should know exactly which Kobe move I'm referring to. He tends to make a spin move at around the free throw line and takes 3-4 steps when all is said and done. He doesn't attack the rim much lately so it hasn't been as prevalent, but it's there.

Also, one instance of Lebron traveling doesn't equate to him "always getting away with it". If you watch him play you will see that the crab dribble was a one-time thing. I don't think I've ever seen him make that same move a second time.

then find one nba player that complains about it haven't even heard one NBA player that complains about kobe's spin move, i watched the lakers kobe does travel but no nba player complains about it then why would you complain about it? you just hate kobe and you want to have more reasons to bash him.

you can find it on youtube lebron has more videos that travels more than kobe, face it kobe has better footwork than lebron, kobe commits less travel than lebron that gets caught

[big0mar]

Didn't Jordan's Bulls team make the playoffs without him? Does anyone think the Cavs make the playoffs without Lebron?

[BettingWizard]

Didn't Jordan's Bulls team make the playoffs without him? Does anyone think the Cavs make the playoffs without Lebron?

bj armstrong horace grant and pippen all had career years the first year jordan retired, still finished 2 wins fewer than the previous year. The next year, they were barely hanging on for a playoff seed, then Jordan came in April and propelled them to a 5 seed. The rest is history.

[kahnner]

Lebron has more raw talent then Jordan but Jordans will to win superceeds him as the greatest. You can talk stats till your blue in the face but until Lebron starts to get those rings on his finger hes just another Marino. Hitting clutch shots in the postseason and winning thats all that matters, just like Manning was just a good QB until the ring. Jordan was such a clutch athlete, something that cannot be coached.

very, very good points!
stats are stats, the game has changed so much from when wilt played, it has changed a lot even from when jordan played.
It's simple Lebron is no doubt the best player in the nba right now!
It's also simple that jordan was the best player ever! Jordan did everything!
Will lebron ever be considered the best ever very possible but not yet. He has a lot of years left, let's see what happens and argue this 7-10 years down the road!