Casino game payouts 110% - what to do

**soxwin1917** · 12-05-09, 12:18 AM

Seems to me like thats a definite party foul. I don't blame the player for trying to exploit the problem, but once the book notices the problem they have every right to revoke the winnings.

**mtneer1212** · 12-05-09, 12:18 AM

Only if they refund every dollar to every account that has played the game.

**tomcowley** · 12-05-09, 12:42 AM

Was the game paying the posted payouts?

**topgame85** · 12-05-09, 12:51 AM

agree if winnings are voided losses should be refunded

**Halifax** · 12-05-09, 12:53 AM

Why didn't BetEd fix the glitch the previous time they confiscated a player's money ?

Did they decide to keep the game programmed to payout at 110% because they thought they'd make it up in volume ?

Knowing them, it wouldn't surprise me.

**LLXC** · 12-05-09, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by mtneer1212

Only if they refund every dollar to every account that has played the game.

Haha, you wish. In an ideal world maybe...

**20Four7** · 12-05-09, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Justin7

I have a couple disputes I'm reviewing.

Assume that a programmer botched a game. For whatever reason, the house edge is -10% - a player can fire away and make money long term. The book didn't know the software developer screwed up.

The book does have a rule: "If our game malfunctions/overpays/screws up, we can revoke winnings".

A player identifies the glitch, and beats the hell out of the book. the book revokes winnings.

Party foul?

Did the player identify the glitch and exploit it or did he think he was "getting lucky". Personally if I found the glitch I"d never admit it.

**Jaug** · 12-05-09, 05:45 AM

For once, the player got to be the casino

**katstale** · 12-05-09, 09:35 AM

This is a tough one. Solomonesque would say the casino can take back the winnings, but give the player a nice "windfall" for helping them discover the problem. I am afraid you will not find Solomon at the place speculated.

**Dunder** · 12-05-09, 09:38 AM

Tough call.
Given what is stated in their rules, I think the book would treat it the same way as a bad line for a sports bet.

Is it justifiable? If it can be demonstrated that there is an error, then probably yes but only if they also make refunds to players who lost despite the +EV situation. They can´t have it both ways.

**HeeeHAWWWW** · 12-05-09, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Dunder

Is it justifiable? If it can be demonstrated that there is an error, then probably yes but only if they also make refunds to players who lost despite the +EV situation. They can´t have it both ways.

I'm sure they can, and will.

**pjesnik24** · 12-05-09, 09:56 AM

how come these glitches are always in favour of the player? I never heard from anybody that a sportsbook contacted them few months later to giv ethem back money because of the "glitch", "bad line", "technical problems" etc.

**Waiting4Godot** · 12-05-09, 09:58 AM

While I know what's really going to happen...

Let's say a game is supposed to have a 10% house edge, but really has a 20% edge (the same sort of programmer error, but in reverse). When this comes to light.. is the book going to make that right? I doubt it...

My thinking is that if the book is going to put a game into play, it's the book's responsibility to make sure it's right. Is it really that hard to run a simulation?

If they are going to revoke winnings, they'd need to do to ALL players.. and really should simply void the game's history (give back losses, while taking winnings).. but that's a pretty messy thing to do. I wonder how many players unknowingly made $'s that could lose them now...

**Dunder** · 12-05-09, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by HeeeHAWWWW

I'm sure they can, and will.

I should rephrase as "they shouldn´t be able to have it both ways".

**Fishhead** · 12-05-09, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Justin7

I have a couple disputes I'm reviewing.

Assume that a programmer botched a game. For whatever reason, the house edge is -10% - a player can fire away and make money long term. The book didn't know the software developer screwed up.

The book does have a rule: "If our game malfunctions/overpays/screws up, we can revoke winnings".

A player identifies the glitch, and beats the hell out of the book. the book revokes winnings.

Party foul?

How did it overpay?

Was it a video poker game with the wrong paytables?

Explain in more detail.

Right now, I'm siding with the player in this.

**Chopsticks** · 12-05-09, 10:52 AM

I like the idea that they have to refund money to those who have lost playing the game also.
That said, it is not nice to exploit errors.

**pjesnik24** · 12-05-09, 11:31 AM

how does the player identifies the glitch? he is playing it and suddenly he wins so it must be a glitch?

**JerseyShop101** · 12-05-09, 01:05 PM

Another problem with this is, what if the book knows theres a casino software problem, but it has no problem as long as players are losing, but once someone wins big- the investigate and find the "malfunction".

And we all hear about the scenario in online BJ, of the dealer getting an unreasonable amount of made hands in a row of 20s and blackjacks and never busting. But if a players gets on a run like that, I wonder if they would consider that a malfunction, especially at $100 or more a hand.

This is just another reason to stay away from online casinos, not just because of the -ev, but because if you win it could be a glitch. But then again winning in an online casino IS A GLITCH. LOL.

**tblues2005** · 12-05-09, 01:07 PM

The book should refund the wagers and not give any winnings in this case. That would be only fair.

**gambleballs** · 12-05-09, 02:51 PM

Pay the player. Break the programmers thumbs.

**Dunder** · 12-05-09, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by gambleballs

Pay the player. Break the programmers thumbs.

Actually an interesting point here. The casino software is, I assume, from a third party.

It would be normal for the contract between the book and the software provider to cover errors and omissions and for at least one of the parties to have insurance against it.

**LVHerbie** · 12-05-09, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Justin7

I have a couple disputes I'm reviewing.

Assume that a programmer botched a game. For whatever reason, the house edge is -10% - a player can fire away and make money long term. The book didn't know the software developer screwed up.

The book does have a rule: "If our game malfunctions/overpays/screws up, we can revoke winnings".

A player identifies the glitch, and beats the hell out of the book. the book revokes winnings.

Party foul?

I don't see how "If our game malfunctions/overpays/screws up, we can revoke winnings" applies if the software was programed to pay out at 110%... I also think it depends on how it was exploited... For example it just overpaying on every blackjack hand, for example, with regular payout rules I think the book has a much stronger case then say a video poker game that has a bad pay table...

**trixtrix** · 12-05-09, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by JerseyShop101

Another problem with this is, what if the book knows theres a casino software problem, but it has no problem as long as players are losing, but once someone wins big- the investigate and find the "malfunction".

And we all hear about the scenario in online BJ, of the dealer getting an unreasonable amount of made hands in a row of 20s and blackjacks and never busting. But if a players gets on a run like that, I wonder if they would consider that a malfunction, especially at $100 or more a hand.

This is just another reason to stay away from online casinos, not just because of the -ev, but because if you win it could be a glitch. But then again winning in an online casino IS A GLITCH. LOL.

agreed, if books are allowed to perform this type of retroactively canceling winnings based on software glitch of their own design, what's stopping them from having supposed software "glitches" in all their games and thus nullify winnings everytime a player wins big?

**Jshap1515** · 12-05-09, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Chopsticks

That said, it is not nice to exploit errors.

In real life, it is not nice.
In poker and gambling, it is stupid not to exploit other peoples errors

**Fishhead** · 12-05-09, 05:03 PM

Justin, can you answer the question in my previous post here........thanks.

I will then make a decision with THE GENERAL and we will take the appriopriate action.

**reno cool** · 12-05-09, 05:24 PM

Sounds like the player intentionally exploited a flaw he discovered. While I wish the player well in that scenario he should understand the high risk of not getting paid on-line. So he's #1 concern is to play in such a manner as to not get detected. If he failed in that regard I wouldn't expect a casino to pay.

**Bobbysim** · 12-05-09, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Fishhead

How did it overpay?

Was it a video poker game with the wrong paytables?

Explain in more detail.

Right now, I'm siding with the player in this.

When you play Mystic Number Video Poker you choose a number between 2 and 10 at the beginning of the game. If this number shows up in any poker hand, your winnings will be doubled. If If this number shows up 2, 3, or 4 times in any poker hand, your winnings will be multiplied by the value of the Mystic Number.
For example: if the winning combination is a Full House with the bet of 1 chip on the Bet Max table and contains two Mystic Numbers the amount of the bet will be calculated this way: (75x2)x2=300.
A good poker hand with 2, 3, or 4 Mystic Numbers in it could win me over $300.
(I wish I knew how to copy and paste)

**Bobbysim** · 12-05-09, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by reno cool

Sounds like the player intentionally exploited a flaw he discovered. While I wish the player well in that scenario he should understand the high risk of not getting paid on-line. So he's #1 concern is to play in such a manner as to not get detected. If he failed in that regard I wouldn't expect a casino to pay.

I honestly had no idea what was up with this game. Sometimes I would play and
not win a hand for three or four days; then I would go on a roll and win $300
in an hour.

**Waiting4Godot** · 12-06-09, 08:18 AM

Sounds like the player intentionally exploited a flaw he discovered.

How could a player be sure a flaw has been found? Even in a -ev situation, there are going to be runs of the player winning. How many games would you have to play before you could be sure there was a game flaw of 110%?

**cav1x** · 12-06-09, 08:40 AM

Party foul ...is it 100% sure, that the book didn't know about this?

**korbal29** · 12-06-09, 08:46 AM

how as a player can I tell if the payout is 110%

**vitalyo** · 12-06-09, 09:25 AM

I had seen this at the real casinos not an online. Player hits 5 jackpots within half an hour $10,000+ (i am sure i am not the only one). Manager comes in closes machine "OUT of Order". Player gets paid.
Everyone knows machines software is malfunctioning ,technical problem.No one tells the players sorry software is malfunctioning .
The player gets paid anyway. I had seen it more then ones 3-4 times in my life.

What do we have here word of Beted ?

In my view the real casinos unlike Beted seen this problem as it's their own mistake . And we have to pay, our we will get bad reputation and potentially turn away other gamblers playing with us . Sounds reasonable (to anyone who is in his or hers right mind) I have an edge i'll get this money back .
Now if the player got paid 10 to 1 where the odds are 2 to 1 a different story .
Or where the max payout $1000 but machine if flushing 50K .I would agree not paying winnings.
Clearly Beteds fault . And from what i see this is not the first time they refuse to pay winnings. So far they have been using excuses more then ones. How about hiring someone who will monitor this so called malfunctionings live ,and not taking players winnings the very next day .
In this situation The very last diffence for Beted would be . We had 30+ players in the last 24 hours playing WHATEVER the game is and all of them won BIG no single loser our back against the wall . We f****d up and it's our fault . We will pay all of them whatever % is .And it will never happened again -. Because we are pros and we been around for some time and we are standing behind our reputation(lousy at this moment) .
My 2 cents .

**big joe 1212** · 12-06-09, 09:33 AM

If the casino was malfunctioning in the house's advantage, would they refund all the losers?? No way they would!

Of course they only "notice" malfunctions when the book gets hit hard!

**big joe 1212** · 12-06-09, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Waiting4Godot

While I know what's really going to happen...

Let's say a game is supposed to have a 10% house edge, but really has a 20% edge (the same sort of programmer error, but in reverse). When this comes to light.. is the book going to make that right? I doubt it...

My thinking is that if the book is going to put a game into play, it's the book's responsibility to make sure it's right. Is it really that hard to run a simulation?

If they are going to revoke winnings, they'd need to do to ALL players.. and really should simply void the game's history (give back losses, while taking winnings).. but that's a pretty messy thing to do. I wonder how many players unknowingly made $'s that could lose them now...

I agree totally!