[stevenash]

Seven time All Star
Four time Gold Glove
Three time Silver Slugger

Year				G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+
1				48	177	156	28	39	9	1	8	26	4	0	20	53	0.25	0.333	0.474	0.808	117
2				145	587	514	82	147	43	1	20	82	18	3	60	130	0.286	0.359	0.49	0.85	126
3				160	710	602	103	182	36	3	36	125	15	7	99	145	0.302	0.401	0.551	0.952	160
4				109	479	406	75	122	39	1	19	69	9	3	64	110	0.3	0.396	0.542	0.938	158
5				159	695	567	103	182	38	2	33	110	21	5	118	151	0.321	0.435	0.57	1.005	168
6				158	705	579	106	172	33	3	24	95	32	5	110	150	0.297	0.411	0.489	0.899	133
7				155	665	558	117	166	34	3	36	120	18	5	94	147	0.297	0.404	0.563	0.966	142
8				158	690	593	95	172	35	5	33	83	7	4	90	173	0.29	0.389	0.533	0.922	142
9				161	682	597	97	155	25	1	34	97	3	1	78	166	0.26	0.346	0.476	0.821	115
10				58	231	191	31	58	13	0	6	21	1	0	37	43	0.304	0.417	0.466	0.883	145
11				158	679	603	102	177	36	2	31	99	12	0	67	136	0.294	0.365	0.514	0.879	141
12				100	435	379	73	125	28	0	26	82	5	0	51	93	0.33	0.411	0.609	1.021	189
12 Yrs				1569	6735	5745	1012	1697	369	22	306	1009	145	33	888	1497	0.295	0.391	0.527	0.918	144

[pavyracer]

Goldschmit?

No, he doesn't have a ring.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

My answer would be that the AGGREGATE looks a little low. 1697 Hits is pretty low.

I would say NO. Even if he played a tough defensive position, he would have needed to play 3 more years.

As an example:
*His Offensive TOTALS would be a good bit lower than Ted Simmons, who played Catcher.
*I don't think his line looks as good as Bobby Grich's, once you account for Grich's defensive contribution.

[stevenash]

Goldschmit?

No, he doesn't have a ring.

Yeah, it's Goldy.
Not his fault those D-Back teams sucked.

[pavyracer]

Yeah, it's Goldy.
Not his fault those D-Back teams sucked.

I think Fred McGriff has better stats and a ring and he is not in the HOF. There a lot of 1B with better stats that are not in.

[KiDBaZkiT]

Baseball HOF an absolute joke. Hypocrisy at its finest.

[TommieGunshot]

I think Fred McGriff has better stats and a ring and he is not in the HOF. There a lot of 1B with better stats that are not in.

McGriff has a lower WAR in 900 more games. Allen and Hernandez are the two best first basemen not in the Hall-of-Fame. Goldschmidt is already close to those guys and still at the peak of his career.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

McGriff has a lower WAR in 900 more games. Allen and Hernandez are the two best first basemen not in the Hall-of-Fame. Goldschmidt is already close to those guys and still at the peak of his career.

I'm growing very tired of the Baseball HOF. On last round of Veterans Committee:
*Kaat/Oliva made it b/c they're well-liked. Allen passed over b/c he was known as being prickly (but he was easily better than Oliva who had a lot of DH at-bats).

[ttwarrior1]

not even close unless that was the 60s or 70s

or a 2nd baseman, c or ss

[stevenash]

I'm growing very tired of the Baseball HOF. On last round of Veterans Committee:
*Kaat/Oliva made it b/c they're well-liked. Allen passed over b/c he was known as being prickly (but he was easily better than Oliva who had a lot of DH at-bats).

A lot of the HoF is political.
Schilling isn't in because he's a kook, Hernandez because there are too many skeletons in his closet, and the power numbers are soft for a !B, if you must put Keith in then you must put Mattingly in.

Trammell is in, why not Whitaker, and before answering, take a closer look at Lou's numbers, all of them, speed and defensive.
Palmeiro because he owned up to steroids.
We all know why Rose, A-Rod, Clemens, Mac, Sosa, and Bonds aren't in.

[d2bets]

He may very well get there eventually, but if his career ended today - no.

[Mr KLC]

Surprised Kaat didn't get "cancelled" after his two missteps while he was doing broadcasts.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Surprised Kaat didn't get "cancelled" after his two missteps while he was doing broadcasts.

Yes. I think people looked past it, b/c he was in the game so long as a player and broadcaster. Rookie card in 1960...and he was still in the league on the 1982 Cardinal staff.

I've been advocating Whitaker for a while. When you sum it all up, he has one of the highest WARs not in the Hall. Part of it has to be that he's not a self-promoter and doesn't say a peep.

Schilling is so obvious. So much so that it proves the writers don't do a good job on the voting. Curt didn't gambled or take drugs; he says weird things, so what?

[stevenash]

Surprised Kaat didn't get "cancelled" after his two missteps while he was doing broadcasts.

Kaat's a fossil, he's older than dirt, I'm surprised he remembers his own name.
He's in because of his 280+ wins and his sixteen gold gloves.
People who have known Kaat for years say he never was like that (with the kooky race stuff) until he reached his 70's.
Which leads me to believe his mind is shot.

[TommieGunshot]

if you must put Keith in then you must put Mattingly in.

This is completely untrue. Hernandez surpassed the standards set by the sports writers. Mattingly did not.

[SlickFazzer]

Lou Whitaker?

[KiDBaZkiT]

Free Barry Bonds. Just cuz he donned a Pirates uniform and wasn’t kind to the media they wanna fukk him over? I take s*** bigger than the MLB HOF.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

This is completely untrue. Hernandez surpassed the standards set by the sports writers. Mattingly did not.

I love Keith as a player. Two WS titles on different teams. He also came up HUGE with the Key Game 7 hits in both series.

If one way to qualify for HOF is "best player at your position over an extended period of time"...he did that. Over an 11-year period, he won 11 consecutive NL 1b gold gloves. And he didn't just win them, he deserved them.

Offensively, he was good. It's just that he did a lot of it via Walks and Doubles, not so much on Home Runs.

I really think the writers don't have a good gauge on his defensive prowess. If you watched the games back then, he killed the opponent bunting game by reading the game so well. I don't think the defensive metrics capture his true defensive value, which was immense.

[Roscoe_Word]

IMHO, I think Goldschmidt falls a little short.

[jjgold]

nope

hall of fame does not mean as much anymore

Goldy needs 5 more good years

[pologq]

if he reaches 400 homers with 3 or more really good seasons he has a shot imo

[Snowball]

too short a career
what happened?

[Ratpack]

Kent should be in and if Goldy wins the mvp and has a couple more years like hes having now he will get in new analytics sports writers love guys like him and will put him in maybe not the first year but he will get in within 4 or 5 years. He was top 5 in mvp basically all the yeas he was in zona

[stevenash]

This is completely untrue. Hernandez surpassed the standards set by the sports writers. Mattingly did not.

They were both equally elite defensive first basemen.
Mattingly: Nine gold gloves in fourteen seasons
Hernandez: Eleven gold gloves in seventeen seasons

Mattingly was a six time all star
Hernandez was a five time all star

The two of them have won an MVP

Mattingly hit for better average
Mattingly's power numbers were not just better, but demonstrably better than Hernandez.
Which is even more impressive when you factor in pitchers often worked around Mattingly, he was in the middle in most years of a crap lineup with no protection, where as pitchers had to come into Hernandez or face Strawberry with runners on base.

The only difference is Hernandez was part of a World Championship team with the Cards and Mets.
Who won despite subpar World Series performances from Hernandez.

We're comparing side by side individuals here though, championships are team accomplishments.

How can you say Hernandez surpasses standards blah, blah, blah when both were equally the élite defensive first basemen of their era, when Mattingly hit for the higher average and had much better power numbers?

You may want to rethink your comment there chief.

[pologq]

mattingly falls a little short to me and i loved watching him. his back ended big numbers. needed like another 2-3 seasons reaching 100 rbi's.

keith benefits from the championships in his perception. if he had none like donnie baseball be interesting to see the votes.

[stevenash]

I love Keith as a player. Two WS titles on different teams. He also came up HUGE with the Key Game 7 hits in both series.

If one way to qualify for HOF is "best player at your position over an extended period of time"...he did that. Over an 11-year period, he won 11 consecutive NL 1b gold gloves. And he didn't just win them, he deserved them.

Offensively, he was good. It's just that he did a lot of it via Walks and Doubles, not so much on Home Runs.

I really think the writers don't have a good gauge on his defensive prowess. If you watched the games back then, he killed the opponent bunting game by reading the game so well. I don't think the defensive metrics capture his true defensive value, which was immense.

Mattingly did everything defensively that Hernandez did.

Yes, the game seven hit was clutch, but let's not lose sight of the fact, Al Nipper had no choice but to put one over the plate.
The bases were loaded, you can't walk Hernandez with the bases loaded, that's a RBI BB, and the situation would only be worse because fact of the matter was Carter than Strawberry were on deck.

Yes, Nipper grooved at pitch, and Hernandez did what he's paid to do, put in play.
Let's no lose sight of the fact in World Series play, he struggled to hit .240 overall.

Listen, I say Mattingly was every bit the player Hernandez was, I made my case he may have been even a little better overall.
Doesn't make me right, or wrong, if one wants to argue the opposite, you could make a good case the other way, and you wouldn't be right or wrong.

Final point, I don't hate on or love either, as a baseball junkie, I have total respect for both players contributions.

[BigJay]

I love Goldy. He went to my college. That’s a key reason he doesn’t have a few more seasons under his belt. Didn’t sign with the Dodgers out of HS, played 3 years of college ball instead

Agree he probably needs another 5 years of solid stats for the Hall. It will be tough he’s already 34

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Nashy, I know you love this banter. I won't concede that Mattingly was the defensive equivalent of Keith.

Granted, I watched more Met games than Yankee games b/c of WWOR. I viewed Keith's 1st base defense as the best I'd ever seen. I'm of the opinion that his 1b-work improved every pitcher on the staff.

Interesting aside, I met Howard Johnson at a card show. Howard talked about Keith's defensive skill and his leadership. Again, I'm a little biased b/c I saw a lot more Met games.

I read Keith's autobiography. He really does have a resume that fits the Hall of Fame criteria. Break-out season in 1979, when he beat out Pete Rose for the batting title.

Commissioner called Keith after 1979 season. Asked if he'd be OK with a co-MVP. Strange question, but I think it was a lifetime concession to Willie Stargell.

Only real drawbacks on Keith:
1) Fewer Home Runs than most HOF 1b...but well within the range on OBA.
2) Fairly abrupt ending to his career, poor in CLE. Maybe a result of living the hard life.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Call me a Fan-boy:

[TommieGunshot]

They were both equally elite defensive first basemen.

Absolutely not equal. Virtually all defensive stats show this to be true. Hernandez best defensive first baseman in history.

Mattingly: Nine gold gloves in fourteen seasons
Hernandez: Eleven gold gloves in seventeen seasons[

Mattingly was a six time all star
Hernandez was a five time all star

The two of them have won an MVP

Outside of the All-Star seasons Mattingly was overall an average to below average player; Hernandez had some very good years he did not make the All-Star team.

Mattingly hit for better average
Mattingly's power numbers were not just better, but demonstrably better than Hernandez.

More meaningful stats that correlate with winning baseball games, show Hernandez was "not just better, but demonstrably better" than Mattingly

Which is even more impressive when you factor in pitchers often worked around Mattingly, he was in the middle in most years of a crap lineup with no protection, where as pitchers had to come into Hernandez or face Strawberry with runners on base.

If pitchers were working around Mattingly, he could have helped his team by getting on base by walking more. Instead he made outs at a much higher rate than Hernandez, .358 obp to .384.

As a hitter, ops and ops+ were very close. But Hernandez did that hitting in 300 more games. That is a significant additional contribution to his teams.

As a fielder, not very close when looking at zone rating, range factore, etc. Baseballreference has Hernandez 120 runs better than average on defense, Mattingly 33.
Overall a WAR of 60 for Hernandez and 42 for Mattingly. Obviously WAR is not perfect, but if it is an inaccurate measure in this case, All-Star teams and "no protection" does absolutely nothing to show it being inaccurate.

[stevenash]

^
Good points, and as previously stated I'm not saying you're right or wrong.
Thanks for the statute banter, that's all I ask, a good counter point discussion.
Well played.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Maybe a better point. What about Keith in the "MLB Party Hall of Fame"?

Think back to the cola-use from his younger days. Can you imagine some of the nights out after game, if you were a member of the 1986 Mets?

Darryl was young and had a weak stomach. Would ask out of the lineup on Day after Nite game, Davey picked up on it and told him to go Screw.

[ttwarrior1]

why are all you talking about stats, its not always about stats

[kidcudi92]

why are all you talking about stats, its not always about stats

???????

[stevek173]

A lot of people don't know this butt Don Mattingly isn't in the hall of Fame because he keeps a very dirty anus and everyone can smell him.